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RE: [evol-psych] Re: Asteroids and the Scientific Method

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  • Andy Anderson
    Julienne, Can you help me understand how astrologers do experiments? What would an astrological experiement look like? How would another scientist repeat the
    Message 1 of 89 , Dec 10, 2012
      Julienne,
       
      Can you help me understand how astrologers do experiments?  What would an astrological experiement look like?  How would another scientist repeat the experiment?  Assuming science doesn't prove anything, it only falsifes hypotheses, what has been falsifies by astrologers?   
       
      As a x-genetist, I can understand how a scientists do organic chemistry, microbiological or genetic experiments.  There was a time when I could cross to corn inbreds that another scientist had crossed and repeat his experiment or tweak his hypothesis (outcome) by following a specific methodology.  May be you could discribe an astrolgoical experiemental methodology for me.
       
      Regards,
       
      Andy
       

       

      To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
      From: julienne@...
      Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 20:53:16 -0500
      Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Re: Asteroids and the Scientific Method

       
      At 10:17 PM 12/7/2012, Fred Feinberg wrote:


      Hi Andy,

      I can't speak for anything like the majority of statisticians or users of statistical methodology. However, if I were to write one of those Freakonomics type books where I had to say what Science or Statistics really meant, it would boil down pretty much to this:

           Science helps us overcome known biases in human perception in helping determine what's true.

      The reason I emphasize this is that there are systems, like Astrology, divining, bloodletting, and thousands of others (not to mention whole religions!) that were believed in not only by some very bright people, but by very bright people who based their belief on what they took to be EVIDENCE. "Evidence" isn't enough. How it's collected is.

      It's like Richard Feynman said, in one of the most insightful and important remarks I've ever heard: that, if you are a real scientist, you put equal energy into supporting and refuting your theory, looking for evidence on both sides. Very few people do that. Most have a horse in the race.

      Edgar and Julienne have whole fleets of horses in the race. Each of them is completely committed to a final position, and endpoint in their debate. Neither is even trying to pretend to be equally arduous in collecting evidence in favor or against Astrology. Personally, I don't care about Astrology, and what I've seen of its predictive successes is, putting it mildly, inconclusive. Julienne does make a good point: if we decide in advance what is possible, we will not take a close look at things that may surprise us.

      I have come to the point now, Fred, where I think you are just in a coma. It  doesn't matter what I
      say, you can't take it in.

      I founded The International Society for Astrological Research for exactly the purpose of conducting
      sound and comprehensive research into astrology, because, in my twenties, I was frustrated with the
      level of astrology I saw being done, and the misinterpretations of it in the media - such as equating
      it with sun sign rubbish.

      I organized conferences all over the world, and travelled all over the world - over 80 countries,
      gathering together physicists, medical doctors, historians, mathematicians, psychiatrists,
      therapists of many kinds, biologists, geneticists, astronomers, and more, to bring their expertise'
      and their information and work to explore what was or was not to be found in astrology.

      You sit there smugly telling me what I believe in order to comfort yourself. I have always said,
      when asked, on, for instance, interviews on TV or radio, or for various publications, why I
      "believed" in astrology, that I don't believe in it - any more than I believe in biology. I've
      lived long enough, Fred, to see information taught us in school as gospel, be unmasked - not
      necessarily as fraud, but as incomplete, sometimes flatly wrong, sometimes needing fine tuning,
      sometimes exploding the current levels of information. Even this week - we knew (were told)
      there was no water on Mars - and now, guess what? - there seems to be water at the Martian poles.

      But you insist on lying and claiming that it is a religion to me, and that I do "believe"
      in it - and you appeal to the rest of the group here to join you in your belief. Seems to me,
      Fred, that the believer is you - trying to convince yourself in your pretend role of reasonable
      mediator, that you are being open and objective. But you're not.

      I sent, as requested, "sTARBABY", and the "CSICOP" article, and you simply brushed them aside
      as containing information which was confusing to you.

      Edgar knows nothing about astrology, and you know that - but you got a kick out of
      using him as a "balance" against me. Ignorance isn't a balance against a quest for
      knowledge and understanding, Fred - it's just ignorance.


      Julienne




      I think it was Erasmus Darwin who said we should do crazy experiments from time to time, like to play a trumpet every day for a month to daffodils, and see what happens. Most of the time, nothing. But, sometimes, we may question the very way we see the universe.

      I don't know if this sort of answer is what you were after. Obviously, it's a subject that intrigues me.

      Fred


      Re: Asteroids and the Scientific Method
      Fri Dec 7, 2012 6:46 pm (PST) . Posted by: "Andy Anderson" nd_ndrsn

      Fred,

      In your sense of having “…a specific
      way of dealing with data and empirical questions,” would you say that is
      similar to a position of experiential, experimental observation, from a clearing
      free of “artificial scaffolding?”

      I for one would like to hear more of your
      position. It seems to me there are few
      places on the internet and few news groups that are not full of true believers proselytizing
      their beliefs, projecting thier fear. ]You articulate an
      important position. Thank you,

      Ciao,


      Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions.
                  -- Albert Einstein

    • Andy Anderson
      Julienne, Can you help me understand how astrologers do experiments? What would an astrological experiement look like? How would another scientist repeat the
      Message 89 of 89 , Dec 10, 2012
        Julienne,
         
        Can you help me understand how astrologers do experiments?  What would an astrological experiement look like?  How would another scientist repeat the experiment?  Assuming science doesn't prove anything, it only falsifes hypotheses, what has been falsifies by astrologers?   
         
        As a x-genetist, I can understand how a scientists do organic chemistry, microbiological or genetic experiments.  There was a time when I could cross to corn inbreds that another scientist had crossed and repeat his experiment or tweak his hypothesis (outcome) by following a specific methodology.  May be you could discribe an astrolgoical experiemental methodology for me.
         
        Regards,
         
        Andy
         

         

        To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
        From: julienne@...
        Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 20:53:16 -0500
        Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Re: Asteroids and the Scientific Method

         
        At 10:17 PM 12/7/2012, Fred Feinberg wrote:


        Hi Andy,

        I can't speak for anything like the majority of statisticians or users of statistical methodology. However, if I were to write one of those Freakonomics type books where I had to say what Science or Statistics really meant, it would boil down pretty much to this:

             Science helps us overcome known biases in human perception in helping determine what's true.

        The reason I emphasize this is that there are systems, like Astrology, divining, bloodletting, and thousands of others (not to mention whole religions!) that were believed in not only by some very bright people, but by very bright people who based their belief on what they took to be EVIDENCE. "Evidence" isn't enough. How it's collected is.

        It's like Richard Feynman said, in one of the most insightful and important remarks I've ever heard: that, if you are a real scientist, you put equal energy into supporting and refuting your theory, looking for evidence on both sides. Very few people do that. Most have a horse in the race.

        Edgar and Julienne have whole fleets of horses in the race. Each of them is completely committed to a final position, and endpoint in their debate. Neither is even trying to pretend to be equally arduous in collecting evidence in favor or against Astrology. Personally, I don't care about Astrology, and what I've seen of its predictive successes is, putting it mildly, inconclusive. Julienne does make a good point: if we decide in advance what is possible, we will not take a close look at things that may surprise us.

        I have come to the point now, Fred, where I think you are just in a coma. It  doesn't matter what I
        say, you can't take it in.

        I founded The International Society for Astrological Research for exactly the purpose of conducting
        sound and comprehensive research into astrology, because, in my twenties, I was frustrated with the
        level of astrology I saw being done, and the misinterpretations of it in the media - such as equating
        it with sun sign rubbish.

        I organized conferences all over the world, and travelled all over the world - over 80 countries,
        gathering together physicists, medical doctors, historians, mathematicians, psychiatrists,
        therapists of many kinds, biologists, geneticists, astronomers, and more, to bring their expertise'
        and their information and work to explore what was or was not to be found in astrology.

        You sit there smugly telling me what I believe in order to comfort yourself. I have always said,
        when asked, on, for instance, interviews on TV or radio, or for various publications, why I
        "believed" in astrology, that I don't believe in it - any more than I believe in biology. I've
        lived long enough, Fred, to see information taught us in school as gospel, be unmasked - not
        necessarily as fraud, but as incomplete, sometimes flatly wrong, sometimes needing fine tuning,
        sometimes exploding the current levels of information. Even this week - we knew (were told)
        there was no water on Mars - and now, guess what? - there seems to be water at the Martian poles.

        But you insist on lying and claiming that it is a religion to me, and that I do "believe"
        in it - and you appeal to the rest of the group here to join you in your belief. Seems to me,
        Fred, that the believer is you - trying to convince yourself in your pretend role of reasonable
        mediator, that you are being open and objective. But you're not.

        I sent, as requested, "sTARBABY", and the "CSICOP" article, and you simply brushed them aside
        as containing information which was confusing to you.

        Edgar knows nothing about astrology, and you know that - but you got a kick out of
        using him as a "balance" against me. Ignorance isn't a balance against a quest for
        knowledge and understanding, Fred - it's just ignorance.


        Julienne




        I think it was Erasmus Darwin who said we should do crazy experiments from time to time, like to play a trumpet every day for a month to daffodils, and see what happens. Most of the time, nothing. But, sometimes, we may question the very way we see the universe.

        I don't know if this sort of answer is what you were after. Obviously, it's a subject that intrigues me.

        Fred


        Re: Asteroids and the Scientific Method
        Fri Dec 7, 2012 6:46 pm (PST) . Posted by: "Andy Anderson" nd_ndrsn

        Fred,

        In your sense of having “…a specific
        way of dealing with data and empirical questions,” would you say that is
        similar to a position of experiential, experimental observation, from a clearing
        free of “artificial scaffolding?”

        I for one would like to hear more of your
        position. It seems to me there are few
        places on the internet and few news groups that are not full of true believers proselytizing
        their beliefs, projecting thier fear. ]You articulate an
        important position. Thank you,

        Ciao,


        Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions.
                    -- Albert Einstein

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