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Re: [evol-psych] Re: President candidates being out of touch

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  • Julienne
    ... Hi, Don, I agree with you. However, what I was talking about is a special place on the ballot where it is not a competition for the Congress, but just for
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 30, 2012
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      At 10:57 PM 9/30/2012, Don Zimmerman wrote:
      >--- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Julienne <julienne@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Of course, people have different perspectives, and will answer the
      > > questions from their different visions, - or lack of visions.
      > >
      > > One issue which has for decades confounded me, is how so many elected
      > > leaders, not to mention appointed leaders, tend not to represent what
      > > we might consider to be our "best" people - those with the human
      > > qualities we would think we would admire and want most to represent
      > > us - wisdom, kindness, intelligence, inclusiveness, a broad vision,
      > > empathy, Instead we get people wanting to put probes up women's
      > > vaginas - run prostitution rings in France, deny climate chsnge, join
      > > the banking robbers, steal the vote, grab the cream for the top and
      > > leave millions around the world starving, struggling, dying - and
      > > these issues are hardly a focus - more a passing nod, as if to
      > > acknowledge people know about these issues, and the mere
      > > acknowledgement of knowing gives one points without having to
      > > actually do anything.
      > >
      > > By the way, Don - it is also important to look for the Independents
      > > on the voting sheets - they can be hidden - and so if one just clicks
      > > off one party in a straight vote, one might miss someone running
      > > separately from any party for a local judgeship, for example. That
      > > can have an immense influence on local politics - even national.
      >
      >
      >DWZ:
      >Yes, those human qualities you mention are certainly needed in
      >political leaders at all levels, but getting people who possess them
      >in those positions is not easy. Probably in American society there
      >are selective factors that concentrate the very best leaders (of the
      >type needed in government) in corporations, medicine, law, the
      >military, science and engineering, etc. rather than politics. The
      >best people are attracted to the best paying jobs, and politics ends
      >up with leftovers.
      >
      >As to independent voters, true, they cannot be ignored. What we
      >should watch out for is supporting an independent when it takes away
      >votes from the desired presidential candidate and allows the lesser
      >candidate to be elected. The same for the balance of votes in
      >congress. For example, even thougn I admire Ralph Nader greatly as a
      >consumer advocate, I wish he had stayed out of Pesidental races,
      >because he just attracted Democratic votes that normally would have
      >gone to Kerry or Obama. I fear that third party and independent
      >candidates often are driven more by ego than assessment of what is
      >best and realistic in the outcome of the election.

      Hi, Don,

      I agree with you. However, what I was talking about is a special
      place on the ballot where it is
      not a competition for the Congress, but just for judges, I think. I
      wish I had written down what was said - but it's a special place on
      the ballot for the judges...which we might miss if we just vote
      straight party. If we don't find that set of boxes - only those who
      know about them will - and there go our votes.

      I agree about Nader - The Peter Principle. He also interfered with Al
      Gore, as I remember. It's sad -

      However, perhaps we don't have our best people as corporate heads,
      either. Now, if we could just even
      out salaries, then that might change everything.

      Julienne



      The selection of a Republican candidate for the presidency of this
      globalized and expansive empire is - and I say this seriously - the
      greatest competition of idiocy and ignorance that has ever been.
      Fidel Castro. January 2012
    • alex starseeker
      I agree Julienne. And let s get Prop 37 passed in Cali so we can join the rest of the civilized world in labelling Monsanto and its evil cohorts for exactly
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 1, 2012
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        I agree Julienne.  And let's get Prop 37 passed in Cali so we can join the rest of the civilized world in labelling Monsanto and its evil cohorts for exactly what they are, no better than the tobacco companies.


        To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
        From: julienne@...
        Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 01:30:37 -0400
        Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Re: President candidates being out of touch

         
        At 10:57 PM 9/30/2012, Don Zimmerman wrote:
        >--- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Julienne <julienne@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Of course, people have different perspectives, and will answer the
        > > questions from their different visions, - or lack of visions.
        > >
        > > One issue which has for decades confounded me, is how so many elected
        > > leaders, not to mention appointed leaders, tend not to represent what
        > > we might consider to be our "best" people - those with the human
        > > qualities we would think we would admire and want most to represent
        > > us - wisdom, kindness, intelligence, inclusiveness, a broad vision,
        > > empathy, Instead we get people wanting to put probes up women's
        > > vaginas - run prostitution rings in France, deny climate chsnge, join
        > > the banking robbers, steal the vote, grab the cream for the top and
        > > leave millions around the world starving, struggling, dying - and
        > > these issues are hardly a focus - more a passing nod, as if to
        > > acknowledge people know about these issues, and the mere
        > > acknowledgement of knowing gives one points without having to
        > > actually do anything.
        > >
        > > By the way, Don - it is also important to look for the Independents
        > > on the voting sheets - they can be hidden - and so if one just clicks
        > > off one party in a straight vote, one might miss someone running
        > > separately from any party for a local judgeship, for example. That
        > > can have an immense influence on local politics - even national.
        >
        >
        >DWZ:
        >Yes, those human qualities you mention are certainly needed in
        >political leaders at all levels, but getting people who possess them
        >in those positions is not easy. Probably in American society there
        >are selective factors that concentrate the very best leaders (of the
        >type needed in government) in corporations, medicine, law, the
        >military, science and engineering, etc. rather than politics. The
        >best people are attracted to the best paying jobs, and politics ends
        >up with leftovers.
        >
        >As to independent voters, true, they cannot be ignored. What we
        >should watch out for is supporting an independent when it takes away
        >votes from the desired presidential candidate and allows the lesser
        >candidate to be elected. The same for the balance of votes in
        >congress. For example, even thougn I admire Ralph Nader greatly as a
        >consumer advocate, I wish he had stayed out of Pesidental races,
        >because he just attracted Democratic votes that normally would have
        >gone to Kerry or Obama. I fear that third party and independent
        >candidates often are driven more by ego than assessment of what is
        >best and realistic in the outcome of the election.

        Hi, Don,

        I agree with you. However, what I was talking about is a special
        place on the ballot where it is
        not a competition for the Congress, but just for judges, I think. I
        wish I had written down what was said - but it's a special place on
        the ballot for the judges...which we might miss if we just vote
        straight party. If we don't find that set of boxes - only those who
        know about them will - and there go our votes.

        I agree about Nader - The Peter Principle. He also interfered with Al
        Gore, as I remember. It's sad -

        However, perhaps we don't have our best people as corporate heads,
        either. Now, if we could just even
        out salaries, then that might change everything.

        Julienne

        The selection of a Republican candidate for the presidency of this
        globalized and expansive empire is - and I say this seriously - the
        greatest competition of idiocy and ignorance that has ever been.
        Fidel Castro. January 2012


      • clarence_sonny_williams
        Well, Alex, if you are not familiar with many good corporate leaders, then you are an uninformed citizen. If you re American, please do not vote. We do not
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 1, 2012
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          Well, Alex, if you are not familiar with many good corporate leaders,
          then you are an uninformed citizen. If you're American, please do not
          vote. We do not need to reinforce ignorance in our politicians; they do
          a good job by themselves.

          --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, alex starseeker
          <moody1515@...> wrote:
          >
          > Corporations have "good" leaders? Thats news to me......
          >
          > To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
          > From: dwzimm@...
          > Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 02:57:25 +0000
          > Subject: [evol-psych] Re: President candidates being out of touch
          >
          <Snip>
        • clarence_sonny_williams
          Julienne and Don, There are good reasons that the U.S. Constitution s form of government practically forces a two-party system. I m not arguing for or against
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 1, 2012
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            Julienne and Don,

            There are good reasons that the U.S. Constitution's form of government
            practically forces a two-party system. I'm not arguing for or against
            it here (that occupied a whole class in my undergraduate, political
            science days), just reminding you both that there are practical reasons
            and suggestions that it works better than multiparty systems. For one,
            stability is enhanced, mostly at the critical, supportive and
            administrative level (the first 2 or more layers of most American
            secretariats are appointed positions, thus important "worker bees" could
            have a new boss every four years). Countries with many parties are
            terribly unstable (e.g., Italy).

            Also, it is the States, not the Federal government, that governs the
            manner and timing of all elections. The Constitution only directs the
            timing of government formation. If a state fails to meet that deadline,
            its federal representatives will not be seated in the new Congress.
            That has happened circa Civil War era.

            Finally, I believe most states have done away with their systems whereby
            a citizen can cast a "whole party" ballot. I remember days when we went
            to voting booths and could pull one lever, Democrat or Republican. I do
            not believe that exists any more, so retention of judges can be voted
            for or against based on individual merit and not party.

            --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Julienne <julienne@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > At 10:57 PM 9/30/2012, Don Zimmerman wrote:
            > >--- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Julienne julienne@
            wrote:
            > >
            > > > Of course, people have different perspectives, and will answer the
            > > > questions from their different visions, - or lack of visions.
            > > >
            > > > One issue which has for decades confounded me, is how so many
            elected
            > > > leaders, not to mention appointed leaders, tend not to represent
            what
            > > > we might consider to be our "best" people - those with the human
            > > > qualities we would think we would admire and want most to
            represent
            > > > us - wisdom, kindness, intelligence, inclusiveness, a broad
            vision,
            > > > empathy, Instead we get people wanting to put probes up women's
            > > > vaginas - run prostitution rings in France, deny climate chsnge,
            join
            > > > the banking robbers, steal the vote, grab the cream for the top
            and
            > > > leave millions around the world starving, struggling, dying - and
            > > > these issues are hardly a focus - more a passing nod, as if to
            > > > acknowledge people know about these issues, and the mere
            > > > acknowledgement of knowing gives one points without having to
            > > > actually do anything.
            > > >
            > > > By the way, Don - it is also important to look for the
            Independents
            > > > on the voting sheets - they can be hidden - and so if one just
            clicks
            > > > off one party in a straight vote, one might miss someone running
            > > > separately from any party for a local judgeship, for example. That
            > > > can have an immense influence on local politics - even national.
            > >
            > >
            > >DWZ:
            > >Yes, those human qualities you mention are certainly needed in
            > >political leaders at all levels, but getting people who possess them
            > >in those positions is not easy. Probably in American society there
            > >are selective factors that concentrate the very best leaders (of the
            > >type needed in government) in corporations, medicine, law, the
            > >military, science and engineering, etc. rather than politics. The
            > >best people are attracted to the best paying jobs, and politics ends
            > >up with leftovers.
            > >
            > >As to independent voters, true, they cannot be ignored. What we
            > >should watch out for is supporting an independent when it takes away
            > >votes from the desired presidential candidate and allows the lesser
            > >candidate to be elected. The same for the balance of votes in
            > >congress. For example, even thougn I admire Ralph Nader greatly as a
            > >consumer advocate, I wish he had stayed out of Pesidental races,
            > >because he just attracted Democratic votes that normally would have
            > >gone to Kerry or Obama. I fear that third party and independent
            > >candidates often are driven more by ego than assessment of what is
            > >best and realistic in the outcome of the election.
            >
            > Hi, Don,
            >
            > I agree with you. However, what I was talking about is a special
            > place on the ballot where it is
            > not a competition for the Congress, but just for judges, I think. I
            > wish I had written down what was said - but it's a special place on
            > the ballot for the judges...which we might miss if we just vote
            > straight party. If we don't find that set of boxes - only those who
            > know about them will - and there go our votes.
            >
            > I agree about Nader - The Peter Principle. He also interfered with Al
            > Gore, as I remember. It's sad -
            >
            > However, perhaps we don't have our best people as corporate heads,
            > either. Now, if we could just even
            > out salaries, then that might change everything.
            >
            > Julienne
            >
            >
            >
            > The selection of a Republican candidate for the presidency of this
            > globalized and expansive empire is - and I say this seriously - the
            > greatest competition of idiocy and ignorance that has ever been.
            > Fidel Castro. January 2012
            >
          • Don Zimmerman
            ... DWZ: That may be possible, but it would take time. A president elected by a middle-ground party in the USA in the near future would have trouble, because
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 1, 2012
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              --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Karl Stonjek" <stonjek@...> wrote:

              > I'm sure that Americans could relate to a middle ground if it was done well enough and it could develop without people fretting over lost votes for their side, as with voting for Nader at the expense of the Democrats.


              DWZ:
              That may be possible, but it would take time. A president elected by a middle-ground party in the USA in the near future would have trouble, because the House, Senate and Supreme court would still be populated from the other two parties. Because only 1/3, or whatever, of the congressional seats are filled at each election, and the slowness of Supreme Court changes, it would be years before such a middle-ground party could function without constant need for compromises with one or both of the other two.

              Actually, I have always thought of the Democrats as more or less a middle-ground party when considered in relation to the varieties of undeniably left-wing and socialist parties in other nations around the world.

              Best regards,

              Donald W. Zimmerman
              Vancouver, BC, Canada
              dwzimm@...
              http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899
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