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RE: [evol-psych] Human Nature: normal and natural between-group behaviour

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  • Steve Corsini
    in a democracy there is not much that can be done about it except at the ballot box. A highlight of Australian democracy is compulsory voting - we are not just
    Message 1 of 29 , Feb 1, 2010
       
      in a democracy there is not much that can be done about it except at the ballot box.  
       
      A highlight of Australian democracy is compulsory voting - we are not just free to vote, we are forced too.
      What it comes down to is making your policies and platforms less offensive to more people than the other side, As a consequence politics has evolved to the point where both sides look the same and if the two parties  disagree its usually just to be contrary and with fringe groups holding the balance in the centre no real work or policy change can occur.
       
      In a system where everyone has to go to a polling place, usually the local school, to have their name crossed off the list of registered voters, about 8% vote informal -  unfortunately there is no breakdown as to people who mistakenly cast an invalid vote and people who deliberately cast an invalid vote as a protest against all of the  useless money-grubbing self seeking power mad bastards who you cant tell apart.
       
      In an election where only 30% of the total eligible voters turn up it is easier for a minority to hold sway, if the majority don't even bother to vote. And if voter turn out is expected to be low it would be much easier for corrupt officials to add a few hundred thousand extra votes.
       
      SJC
      Pickering Brook
    • Edgar Owen
      ED, Sad but true in light of the following score card: Ask yourself just what have been the pluses and minus of the vast US support of an oppressive Israeli
      Message 2 of 29 , Feb 1, 2010
        ED,

        Sad but true in light of the following score card:

        Ask yourself just what have been the pluses and minus of the vast US support of an oppressive Israeli government including supplying nearly all the very weapons used to carry out that oppression?


        Minuses to the US:

        The undying hatred of millions upon millions of Muslims throughout the world which has led to a whole list of successful Islamist attacks against the US from the Beirut Marine Barracks to the USS Cole, the African embassy bombings and 9/11.

        The deaths of thousands of US soldiers and civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan.

        Billions upon hundreds of billions in additional taxpayer money used to conduct these wars and protect ourselves against further attacks.

        The threat of possible conflict with Iran with all the consequences to the US oil supply that would have.

        The additional huge US aid to countries like Egypt to buy them off on Israel's behalf.

        The threat of ever more dangerous and wide spread conflict of Islam against the west in the future.

        The enormous loss of world wide credibility of the US which applies one standard to Israel and an opposite one to Islamic countries.


        Now balance these huge minuses against the pluses of the US one-sided support of Israel.

        ?????? Strange I can't think of a single plus. Can you?



        Conclusion: The US one sided support of Israel is clearly against US interests in the world and should be immediately ended.


        Edgar




        On Jan 31, 2010, at 7:57 PM, ED wrote:

         


         
        > > But does their phenomenal political power benefit the nation and the
        > > world? --ED

         

        As you may note I was referring to phenomenal political power.    See <excerpt> further below.

        Also, in the video following, watch our President squirm to speak the truth and still keep the king-makers happy! 

        http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=npjKObsTAng

        --ED

         

        http://www.globalre search.ca/ index.php? context=viewArti cle&code=AVN20080607&articleId=9243

        <excerpt>

        "AFTER MONTHS of a tough and bitter race, a merciless struggle, Barack Obama has defeated his formidable opponent, Hillary Clinton. He has wrought a miracle: for the first time in history a black person has become a credible candidate for the presidency of the most powerful country in the world.

        And what was the first thing he did after his astounding victory? He ran to the conference of the Israel lobby, AIPAC, and made a speech that broke all records for obsequiousness and fawning.

        That is shocking enough. Even more shocking is the fact that nobody was shocked.

        IT WAS a triumphalist conference. Even this powerful organization had never seen anything like it. 7000 Jewish functionaries from all over the United States came together to accept the obeisance of the entire Washington elite, which came to kowtow at their feet. All the three presidential hopefuls made speeches, trying to outdo each other in flattery. 300 Senators and Members of Congress crowded the hallways. Everybody who wants to be elected or reelected to any office, indeed everybody who has any political ambitions at all, came to see and be seen.

        The Washington of AIPAC is like the Constantinople of the Byzantine emperors in its heyday.

        The world looked on and was filled with wonderment. The Israeli media were ecstatic. In all the world's capitals the events were followed closely and conclusions were drawn. All the Arab media reported on them extensively. Aljazeera devoted an hour to a discussion of the phenomenon.

        The most extreme conclusions of professors John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt were confirmed in their entirety. On the eve of their visit to Israel, this coming Thursday, the Israel Lobby stood at the center of political life in the US and the world at large.

        WHY, ACTUALLY? Why do the candidates for the American presidency believe that the Israel lobby is so absolutely essential to their being elected?

        The Jewish votes are important, of course, especially in several swing states which may decide the outcome. But African-Americans have more votes, and so do the Hispanics. Obama has brought to the political scene millions of new young voters. Numerically, the Arab-Muslim community in the US is also not an insignificant factor.

        Some say that Jewish money speaks. The Jews are rich. Perhaps they donate more than others for political causes. But the myth about all-powerful Jewish money has an anti-Semitic ring. After all, other lobbies, and most decidedly the huge multinational corporations, have given considerable sums of money to Obama (as well as to his opponents). And Obama himself has proudly announced that hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens have sent him small donations, which have amounted to tens of millions.

        True, it has been proven that the Jewish lobby can almost always block the election of a senator or a member of Congress who does not dance - and do so with fervor - to the Israeli tune. In some exemplary cases (which were indeed meant to be seen as examples) the lobby has defeated popular politicians by lending its political and financial clout to the election campaign of a practically unknown rival.

        But in a presidential race?"

         

        --- In evolutionary- psychology@ yahoogroups. com, "Donald W." <dwzimm@...> wrote:
        >

        > What you should really be asking here is whether the political power of
        corporations benefits the nation and the world. The extent of representation of
        a particular minority group within a corporation could not result in misdeeds or
        abuse of power unless the power of corporations is excessive in the first place.

        Best regards,  Donald W. Zimmerman Vancouver, BC, Canada


         

        --- In evolutionary- psychology@ yahoogroups. com, "ED" <seacrofter001@ ...> wrote:

        > > But does their phenomenal political power benefit the nation and the
        > > world? --ED




      • Edgar Owen
        Donald, No there is an essential difference here. US WASP power is directed towards power here in the US in their own country. Much of the Jewish power in the
        Message 3 of 29 , Feb 1, 2010
          Donald,

          No there is an essential difference here. US WASP power is directed towards power here in the US in their own country. Much of the Jewish power in the US is soley directed towards the advancement of the interests of a foreign power Israel at the expense of US interests. And the funding of that is taken out of the pockets of the US taxpayer. 

          Edgar



          On Jan 31, 2010, at 9:52 PM, Donald W. wrote:

           



          --- In evolutionary- psychology@ yahoogroups. com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@. ..> wrote:

          > Yes, certainly true that Jews in general have succeeded well due to a culture of education and hard work with a good dash of ruthlessness directed towards economic success. Those qualities themselves are indeed positive attributes. The problem comes in how the economic and political power that success engenders is used and manifested.

          DWZ:
          It seems that all people, whether or not they are identified as a member of a particular group or sub-culture, use whatever power they are able to grasp to advance their own interests. For example, you could say that economic and political power in the USA largely has been held by White Anglo-Saxon Protestants (WASPs) and has been used by that large and prominent group for its own ends and advantages. Perhaps the world would be better off today if that particular group had held less power during the last century or two, who knows. When American conservatives criticize Jews, or any other ethnic group, for seeking power and making use of it to whatever extent they are able, it is like the pot calling the kettle black.

          Best regards,

          Donald W. Zimmerman
          Vancouver, BC, Canada
          dwzimm@telus. net
          http://mypage. direct.ca/ z/zimmerma/ index.html


        • ED
          Not much can be done about what? --ED ... the ... just ... offensive ... evolved to ... disagree ... balance ... local ... about ... who ... invalid ...
          Message 4 of 29 , Feb 1, 2010
            Not much can be done about what? --ED


            --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Corsini"
            <sjcarc@...> wrote:
            >
            > in a democracy there is not much that can be done about it except at
            the
            > ballot box.
            >
            > A highlight of Australian democracy is compulsory voting - we are not
            just
            > free to vote, we are forced too.
            > What it comes down to is making your policies and platforms less
            offensive
            > to more people than the other side, As a consequence politics has
            evolved to
            > the point where both sides look the same and if the two parties
            disagree
            > its usually just to be contrary and with fringe groups holding the
            balance
            > in the centre no real work or policy change can occur.
            >
            > In a system where everyone has to go to a polling place, usually the
            local
            > school, to have their name crossed off the list of registered voters,
            about
            > 8% vote informal - unfortunately there is no breakdown as to people
            who
            > mistakenly cast an invalid vote and people who deliberately cast an
            invalid
            > vote as a protest against all of the useless money-grubbing self
            seeking
            > power mad bastards who you cant tell apart.
            >
            > In an election where only 30% of the total eligible voters turn up it
            is
            > easier for a minority to hold sway, if the majority don't even bother
            to
            > vote. And if voter turn out is expected to be low it would be much
            easier
            > for corrupt officials to add a few hundred thousand extra votes.
            >
            > SJC
            > Pickering Brook

            <Snip>
          • R A Fonda
            ... I know I would like to exclude the component of their political action that is based on their delusional religious beliefs, though not the people
            Message 5 of 29 , Feb 1, 2010
              > I would love to be able to exclude all those extreme right-wing
              conservatives and Bible thumpers with their phenomenal political power with their excessive influence on the political process in the USA. <
               
              I know I would like to exclude the component of their political action that is based on their delusional religious beliefs, though not the people themselves. IOW, I would like to see them act in their own REAL interests. But would you, really?  Without their political actions based on religious delusion, America would stop supporting Israel.
               
              RAF
            • R A Fonda
              ... Suppose this were all true; it does not preclude the hypothesis that they succeed ALSO due to a social strategy of ethnic nepotism. But, regardless of
              Message 6 of 29 , Feb 1, 2010
                > that is becase they are intelligent, hard-working, creative,
                responsible, independent, and possessive of strong family values. <
                 
                Suppose this were all true; it does not preclude the hypothesis that they succeed ALSO due to a social strategy of ethnic nepotism.
                 
                But, regardless of whether they 'deserve' their exalted status, the POINT is they DO have power, and they USE it to advance their OWN ethnic interests, to the DISadvantage of non-Jewish, white Americans.
                 
                RAF
              • ED
                DWZ, A mark of our Abrahamic (Judeo-Christian-Islamic) culture is an obsessive-compulsive preoccupation with fingering others as being good or evil, right or
                Message 7 of 29 , Feb 1, 2010

                   

                  DWZ,

                  A mark of our Abrahamic (Judeo-Christian-Islamic) culture is an obsessive-compulsive preoccupation with fingering others as being good or evil, right or wrong. 

                  But this fixation is mostly a use of the power of the finger-pointing meme to intimidate others to the benefit of self and groups we identify with. 

                  In the EvoPsych discussion group we should *not* be engaged in the inferior strategy of denouncing the morality of other people and groups - but in facts and rationality; and in understanding human nature and *why* the relationships between groups are the way they are - from a secular psychological perspective and not from our ancient religio-cultural perspective.

                  Having clarified that I hope, let us examine your statements.

                  > It seems that all people, whether or not they are identified as a member of a particular group or sub-culture, use whatever power they are able to grasp to advance their own interests.

                  I believe you that you are telling it like you see it; In the main, the nature of human beings and human groups is to seek their own self-interest. 

                  I have heard others from your community express this same sentiments as you; I believe that most members of your community agree with you, but are afraid to state it openly like you have; and mostly prefer to adopt a strategy of heckling, disruption and abuse in lieu of an examination of the issues.

                   

                  What you assert is in fact the *theme* of the book reviewed here: http://www.heretical.com/miscellx/culturec.html    

                       

                  The 64,000 dollar question of course is: "To what extent is the successful pursuit of a group's self-interest detracting from the good of the nation as a whole, and the good of the world?"

                   

                  > When American conservatives criticize Jews, or any other ethnic group, for seeking power and making use of it to whatever extent they are able, it is like the pot calling the kettle black.

                  When *any* group which is a majority in a country feels that its political, economic and financial power has been and is being leached away from them by a minority group, albeit legally, they nonetheless experience resentment and anger. This is EP-evolved human nature in action.

                  Both before and after WWII, the primary concern behind the English-speaking nations' attempt to inhibit Jewish emigration to their own countries was a partially unconscious fear that the immigrants would eventually dominate their countries. And their fears are being fulfilled, no? 

                  You can label it "anti-Semitism" or you can label it as none other than good old self-interest to be found in all human groups, in some more, in some less - similar to the self-interest of the Israelis in prohibiting the Palestinians from returning to their lands and homes.

                  The same phenomenon occurs in Africa between Whites or Indians on the one hand and black Africans on the other; between Chinese and indigenous peoples in Southeast Asian countries; and so on.

                  And this natural and normal pursuit of "self-interest" on both sides has been the primary source of dissension between Jews and non-Jews over the ages. 

                  Best regards, ED

                   

                  --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "Donald W." <dwzimm@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > DWZ:
                  > It seems that all people, whether or not they are identified as a member of a particular group or sub-culture, use whatever power they are able to grasp to advance their own interests. For example, you could say that economic and political power in the USA largely has been held by White Anglo-Saxon Protestants (WASPs) and has been used by that large and prominent group for its own ends and advantages. Perhaps the world would be better off today if that particular group had held less power during the last century or two, who knows. When American conservatives criticize Jews, or any other ethnic group, for seeking power and making use of it to whatever extent they are able, it is like the pot calling the kettle black.
                  >
                  > Best regards, Donald W. Zimmerman


                  > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote:
                  >
                  > > Yes, certainly true that Jews in general have succeeded well due to a culture of education and hard work with a good dash of ruthlessness directed towards economic success. Those qualities themselves are indeed positive attributes. The problem comes in how the economic and political power that success engenders is used and manifested.

                • Donald W.
                  ... DWZ: Yes, that sounds like a good system. In addition I would like to see something along the lines of compulsory education sessions. That is, before
                  Message 8 of 29 , Feb 1, 2010
                    --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Corsini" <sjcarc@...> wrote:

                    > A highlight of Australian democracy is compulsory voting - we are not just
                    > free to vote, we are forced too.
                    > What it comes down to is making your policies and platforms less offensive
                    > to more people than the other side, As a consequence politics has evolved to
                    > the point where both sides look the same and if the two parties disagree
                    > its usually just to be contrary and with fringe groups holding the balance
                    > in the centre no real work or policy change can occur.
                    >
                    > In a system where everyone has to go to a polling place, usually the local
                    > school, to have their name crossed off the list of registered voters, about
                    > 8% vote informal - unfortunately there is no breakdown as to people who
                    > mistakenly cast an invalid vote and people who deliberately cast an invalid
                    > vote as a protest against all of the useless money-grubbing self seeking
                    > power mad bastards who you cant tell apart.
                    >
                    > In an election where only 30% of the total eligible voters turn up it is
                    > easier for a minority to hold sway, if the majority don't even bother to
                    > vote. And if voter turn out is expected to be low it would be much easier
                    > for corrupt officials to add a few hundred thousand extra votes.

                    DWZ:
                    Yes, that sounds like a good system. In addition I would like to see something along the lines of "compulsory education sessions." That is, before every election there should be required town meetings where there would be an unbiased explanation of the issues and what the competing candidates would do about them. Not a debate, but a truly unbiased presentation by a neutral observer. That is probably pie in the sky. But if someone objected to the electorate becoming better educated, it would be an indication that people so objecting have their own agenda depending on people's ignorance.

                    Young people in the schools should have political education sessions before each election.

                    And a fraud-proof system of voting online, by phone, or by mail, might be a good idea.
                    Anyone who objects to a greater number of citizens voting surely has an aristocratic bent of mind or an agenda that exculdes many people.

                    Best regards,

                    Donald W. Zimmerman
                    Vancouver, BC, Canada
                    dwzimm@...
                    http://mypage.direct.ca/z/zimmerma/index.html
                  • Donald W.
                    ... DWZ: The inhabitants of many Latin American nations would be pleased if WASP power were directly only to concerns within the borders of the USA. The
                    Message 9 of 29 , Feb 1, 2010
                      --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:

                      > No there is an essential difference here. US WASP power is directed towards power here in the US in their own country. Much of the Jewish power in the US is soley directed towards the advancement of the interests of a foreign power Israel at the expense of US interests. And the funding of that is taken out of the pockets of the US taxpayer.


                      DWZ:
                      The inhabitants of many Latin American nations would be pleased if WASP power were directly only to concerns within the borders of the USA. The trouble is that "power in their own country" is taken to include markets, economies, and political regimes in regions far and wide. But alliances change, and what is in someone's interests now may be opposed to them later. As the world shrinks with the advance of technology, what happens anywhere increasingly affects everybody everywhere.

                      Best regards,

                      Donald W. Zimmerman
                      Vancouver, BC, Canada
                      dwzimm@...
                      http://mypage.direct.ca/z/zimmerma/index.html
                    • Donald W.
                      ... DWZ: I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that Israel has a very liberal, democratic and progressive form of government. I would suspect there is
                      Message 10 of 29 , Feb 1, 2010
                        --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "R A Fonda" <rafonda@...> wrote:

                        > I know I would like to exclude the component of their political action that is based on their delusional religious beliefs, though not the people themselves. IOW, I would like to see them act in their own REAL interests. But would you, really? Without their political actions based on religious delusion, America would stop supporting Israel.

                        DWZ:
                        I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that Israel has a very liberal, democratic and progressive form of government. I would suspect there is less superstition and religious delusion in Israel than in Kansas and Alabama. I should think that, in the long run, the interests of that nation and the interests of the USA and other advanced Western nations are aligned in a sense that transcends current politics and economics.

                        Best regards,

                        Donald W. Zimmerman
                        Vancouver, BC, Canada
                        dwzimm@...
                        http://mypage.direct.ca/z/zimmerma/index.html
                      • Steve Corsini
                        Ed, I was commenting on the original post by the original post by Donald W , posted Monday 01 March 2010 (received 3:57pm) --- In ... DWZ: Still, the problem
                        Message 11 of 29 , Feb 1, 2010
                          Ed, I was commenting on the original post by the original post by Donald W , posted Monday 01 March 2010 (received 3:57pm) --- In evolutionary- psychology@ yahoogroups. com, "ED" <seacrofter001@ ...> wrote:

                          > As you may note I was
                          referring to phenomenal political power. See
                          > <excerpt> further
                          below.

                          DWZ:
                          Still, the problem is not so much what ethnic group has power, corporate or political, as the extent of the power and influence that any group with special interests can attain. I would love to be able to exclude all those extreme right-wing conservatives and Bible thumpers with their phenomenal political power with their excessive influence on the political process in the USA. That's where the real trouble lies. But in a democracy there is not much that can be done about it except at the ballot box.

                          Best regards,

                          Donald W. Zimmerman
                          Vancouver, BC, Canada
                          dwzimm@telus. net
                          http://mypage. direct.ca/ z/zimmerma/ index.html

                        • Steve Corsini
                          Ed, another minus. The restriction of personal freedom, in the name of greater Security, and the acceptance of it by the majority. SJC ... From:
                          Message 12 of 29 , Feb 1, 2010
                            Ed, another minus.

                            The restriction of personal freedom, in the name of greater Security, and
                            the acceptance of it by the majority.

                            SJC


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Edgar Owen
                            Sent: Monday, 1 February 2010 9:09 PM
                            To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Human Nature: normal and natural between-group
                            behavior


                            ED,
                            Sad but true in light of the following score card:


                            Ask yourself just what have been the pluses and minus of the vast US
                            support of an oppressive Israeli government including supplying nearly all
                            the very weapons used to carry out that oppression?


                            Minuses to the US:


                            The undying hatred of millions upon millions of Muslims throughout the
                            world which has led to a whole list of successful Islamist attacks against
                            the US from the Beirut Marine Barracks to the USS Cole, the African embassy
                            bombings and 9/11.

                            The deaths of thousands of US soldiers and civilians in Iraq and
                            Afghanistan.

                            Billions upon hundreds of billions in additional taxpayer money used to conduct these wars and protect ourselves against further attacks.

                            The threat of possible conflict with Iran with all the consequences to the US oil supply that would have.


                            The additional huge US aid to countries like Egypt to buy them off on Israel's behalf.


                            The threat of ever more dangerous and wide spread conflict of Islam
                            against the west in the future.


                            The enormous loss of world wide credibility of the US which applies one standard to Israel and an opposite one to Islamic countries.

                            <snip>
                          • Edgar Owen
                            Donald, It s easy to have a participatory democracy when you have ethnically cleansed all those who might disagree with you (who were in fact the majority of
                            Message 13 of 29 , Feb 1, 2010
                              Donald,

                              It's easy to have a participatory democracy when you have ethnically cleansed all those who might disagree with you (who were in fact the majority of the population). Somehow I don't see that as very worthy of the term democracy nor anything to be proud of. Do you?

                              Edgar



                              On Feb 1, 2010, at 3:33 PM, Donald W. wrote:

                               



                              --- In evolutionary- psychology@ yahoogroups. com, "R A Fonda" <rafonda@... > wrote:

                              > I know I would like to exclude the component of their political action that is based on their delusional religious beliefs, though not the people themselves. IOW, I would like to see them act in their own REAL interests. But would you, really? Without their political actions based on religious delusion, America would stop supporting Israel.

                              DWZ:
                              I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that Israel has a very liberal, democratic and progressive form of government. I would suspect there is less superstition and religious delusion in Israel than in Kansas and Alabama. I should think that, in the long run, the interests of that nation and the interests of the USA and other advanced Western nations are aligned in a sense that transcends current politics and economics.

                              Best regards,

                              Donald W. Zimmerman
                              Vancouver, BC, Canada
                              dwzimm@telus. net
                              http://mypage. direct.ca/ z/zimmerma/ index.html


                            • ED
                              http://www.abbc.net/historia/shahak/english.htm#5 ACCORDING TO THE HALAKHAH [Jewish religious law], Jews
                              Message 14 of 29 , Feb 1, 2010

                                 

                                http://www.abbc.net/historia/shahak/english.htm#5

                                "ACCORDING TO THE HALAKHAH  [Jewish religious law], Jews must not (if they can help it) allow a Gentile to be appointed to any position of authority, however small, over Jews. (The two stock examples are commander over ten soldiers in the Jewish army' and 'superintendent of an irrigation ditch'.) Significantly, this particular rule applies also to converts to Judaism and to their descendants (through the female line) for ten generations or 'so long as the descent is known'."

                                 

                                --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "R A Fonda" <rafonda@...> wrote:

                                >
                                > Suppose this were all true; it does not preclude the hypothesis that they succeed ALSO due to a social strategy of ethnic nepotism.

                                 
                                > But, regardless of whether they 'deserve' their exalted status, the POINT is they DO have power, and they USE it to advance their OWN ethnic interests, to the DISadvantage of non-Jewish, white Americans.
                                 
                                > RAF
                                 
                                 
                                > > that is becase they are intelligent, hard-working, creative, responsible, independent, and possessive of strong family values.

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