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54300Re: [evol-psych]do animals 'know'?

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  • Edgar Owen
    Jun 2, 2007
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      Iris, Jay and Andy,

      We know animals are conscious by applying exactly the same criteria
      as we do in deciding whether humans are conscious or not. 1). they
      act as if they are (they pass the animal Turing test one could say),
      and 2). because we can use logic to understand that if they were not
      conscious, intelligent, rational etc. that they would act randomly
      and not be able to survive. In the strict philosophical sense we
      cannot say there is any consciousness other than our own, but if we
      do admit other humans, we must use the same criteria for admitting
      animals are conscious as well.

      Edgar


      On Jun 2, 2007, at 9:14 AM, idn17 wrote:

      > Truly, how can we know if they are conscious. I feel terrible guilt
      > over killing bugs. I only kill ones that are in the house that may
      > be a danger. For example ticks or bees and wasps I can't shoo out. I
      > still feel badly about it.
      >
      > Just because they don't think like we do, they do have the urge to
      > find food, mate, and stay alive. I remeber a few summers ago there
      > was a spider, harmless type, in the corner of my shower. She was
      > guarding her brood of little spider babies. It was so touching to
      > watch. any spray drop of water upsetting the web/nest, she was in a
      > frenzy.
      >
      > I also had a big black spider in my mailbox out on the road (the
      > mail delivery person not thrilled!). Same thing. She acted like any
      > mother of any species. I try to not anthropomorphize these critters
      > (hard not to do with very child like dogs though!) but I do figure
      > they have a life and a right to it if they are not threatening
      > anyone, and that they are quite conscious within their world.
      >
      > I am not BTW being critical of your killing of the bug.... believe
      > me I have killed many myself, like ants, they may not really be
      > dangerous but who wants them all over your food? A lot of people,
      > and even little kids seem born with a fear of bugs.
      >
      > I would like very much if someone else came and did in the squirrel
      > who moves into my walls every winter, LOL! At least take him away
      > somewhere!
      >
      > If any animal is threatening and could cause harm or death, I have
      > no problem killing it, though prefer someone else do it! Also
      > killing to eat I think is fair. Even if a choice and not a
      > necessity. If you eat what you kill in a hunt for example. It is
      > part of nature and the way of the world since day one, but I still
      > think animals are conscious but in their own worlds, in the ways the
      > need to be, just as we are.
      > Iris
      >
      > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "Jay R. Feierman"
      > <jfeierman@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Andy Lock: I would not wish to deny animal 'subjectivity', in
      > the sense of their living in a perceptual world.
      > >
      <Snip>
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