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Voegelin On Civil Religion or Civil Theology

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  • Xu Zhiyue
    Recently, Confucianism has become a one of main discourse in China, and one scholar propose a suggestion to construct Confucianism as a civil religion in
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 2, 2006
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      Recently, Confucianism has become a one of main discourse in China, and
      one scholar propose a suggestion to construct Confucianism as a civil
      religion in China. Since I have read Voegelin without such a focus on
      civil religion, but I think I can contribute the debate here by
      introducing Voegelin's thought on civil religion.Welcome any kind of
      the helps in treating the topic.
      The scholar with the proposal have read Robert Bella and Niklas
      Luhmann.
    • S.Barret Dolph
      I do hope that more on this list may be of help but I will submit my own thoughts. There is much to do to China for us. 1) The language of Sinology needs much
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 3, 2006
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        I do hope that more on this list may be of help but I will submit my own
        thoughts.

        There is much to do to China for us.

        1) The language of Sinology needs much improvement. Confucius was part of Ru
        Jia. Jia is quite similiar to religion in the sense Cicero bestowed upon it.
        But Whereas in Chinese we would be likely to say Ru Jia in English we say
        Confuscianism. This has led to such nonsense as some who hold that the whole
        enterprise was created by Westerners. (At least the emperialists knew that
        they didn't create everything.) So, the battles between Daoists, Buddhists,
        and Ru Jia (Confuscionism) were battles over Chinese who were waiting for the
        west to come in and create Confuscionism. Much of the confusion is well
        described, albiet briefly, in OH 4.

        2) Historical discourse in Chinese also is crippled by problems. Are
        Mongolians Chinese? Are Koreans Chinese? If so when were they Chinese. The
        solutions of the Chinese Ecumene meeting the West by the CCP and the KMT
        added more to confusion and evasive language than to bringing clarity.

        3) If we are to have a revival of Confuscius it may be a good idea to see how
        past revivals failed. It seems to me it should start at least as far back as
        the Ching Dynasty. Many problems derive from these attempts. One central
        problem is trying to set up Confuscius as what Chinese have whereas the West
        has Christianity. Or Chinese Philosophy vs Western Philosophy. There is a
        world of difference between saying the experience of transcendance in China
        and saying this philosophy is a Chinese thing. EV is most helpful here as the
        problem is already outlined in the difference between a history of ideas as
        objects of history or the experience of reality explored historically.




        On Thursday 03 August 2006 10:29, Xu Zhiyue wrote:
        > Recently, Confucianism has become a one of main discourse in China, and
        > one scholar propose a suggestion to construct Confucianism as a civil
        > religion in China. Since I have read Voegelin without such a focus on
        > civil religion, but I think I can contribute the debate here by
        > introducing Voegelin's thought on civil religion.Welcome any kind of
        > the helps in treating the topic.
        > The scholar with the proposal have read Robert Bella and Niklas
        > Luhmann.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > In consideratione creaturarum non est vana
        > et peritura curiositas exercenda; sed gradus
        > ad immortalia et semper manentia faciendus.
        > —St Augustine De vera religione
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • MaconBoczek@AOL.com
        Dear XuZhiyue, I cannot adequately speak for Voegelin s view on civil religion , but I would like to make a clarification in definitions. Civil religion
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 3, 2006
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          Dear XuZhiyue, I cannot adequately speak for Voegelin's view on "civil
          religion" , but I would like to make a clarification in definitions. Civil
          religion is a sociological reality and traces its roots to Rousseau who wanted
          "religion" to work in some controlling way in bringing an elite decided common
          value to bond society. It really isn't religion at all but more of worship
          of society itself in the tradition of Comte (And of course Voegelin wrote much
          about this in From Enlightenment to Revolution. Bellah of course wrote
          about what he called the American civil religion but what he failed to see was
          that American "publick religion" was a moral reality more in line with the
          Stoic religio than the French concept of civil religion. The difference is human
          transcendence to the Beyond and so it is paramount. Sincerely, Macon Boczek


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Xu Zhiyue
          Thank you,S.Barret Dolph. 1) Identity or identities problem may be really a big challenge to both scholars and politicians. 2) Simple thinking in the division
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 3, 2006
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            Thank you,S.Barret Dolph.

            1) Identity or identities problem may be really a big challenge to
            both scholars and politicians.

            2) Simple thinking in the division of Chinese and Western is also
            the problem here.



            --- In evforum@yahoogroups.com, "S.Barret Dolph" <wheds8@...> wrote:
            >
            > I do hope that more on this list may be of help but I will submit
            my own
            > thoughts.
            >
            > There is much to do to China for us.
            >
            > 1) The language of Sinology needs much improvement. Confucius was
            part of Ru
            > Jia. Jia is quite similiar to religion in the sense Cicero
            bestowed upon it.
            > But Whereas in Chinese we would be likely to say Ru Jia in English
            we say
            > Confuscianism. This has led to such nonsense as some who hold that
            the whole
            > enterprise was created by Westerners. (At least the emperialists
            knew that
            > they didn't create everything.) So, the battles between Daoists,
            Buddhists,
            > and Ru Jia (Confuscionism) were battles over Chinese who were
            waiting for the
            > west to come in and create Confuscionism. Much of the confusion is
            well
            > described, albiet briefly, in OH 4.
            >
            > 2) Historical discourse in Chinese also is crippled by problems.
            Are
            > Mongolians Chinese? Are Koreans Chinese? If so when were they
            Chinese. The
            > solutions of the Chinese Ecumene meeting the West by the CCP and
            the KMT
            > added more to confusion and evasive language than to bringing
            clarity.
            >
            > 3) If we are to have a revival of Confuscius it may be a good idea
            to see how
            > past revivals failed. It seems to me it should start at least as
            far back as
            > the Ching Dynasty. Many problems derive from these attempts. One
            central
            > problem is trying to set up Confuscius as what Chinese have
            whereas the West
            > has Christianity. Or Chinese Philosophy vs Western Philosophy.
            There is a
            > world of difference between saying the experience of transcendance
            in China
            > and saying this philosophy is a Chinese thing. EV is most helpful
            here as the
            > problem is already outlined in the difference between a history of
            ideas as
            > objects of history or the experience of reality explored
            historically.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On Thursday 03 August 2006 10:29, Xu Zhiyue wrote:
            > > Recently, Confucianism has become a one of main discourse in
            China, and
            > > one scholar propose a suggestion to construct Confucianism as a
            civil
            > > religion in China. Since I have read Voegelin without such a
            focus on
            > > civil religion, but I think I can contribute the debate here by
            > > introducing Voegelin's thought on civil religion.Welcome any
            kind of
            > > the helps in treating the topic.
            > > The scholar with the proposal have read Robert Bella and Niklas
            > > Luhmann.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > In consideratione creaturarum non est vana
            > > et peritura curiositas exercenda; sed gradus
            > > ad immortalia et semper manentia faciendus.
            > > —St Augustine De vera religione
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Xu Zhiyue
            Dear Macon Boczec,Thank you.Your clarifications and comments, especially on Bella s , are helpful. Daniel(My anglicized name). ... on civil ... definitions.
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 3, 2006
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              Dear Macon Boczec,Thank you.Your clarifications and comments,
              especially on Bella's , are helpful.
              Daniel(My anglicized name).
              --- In evforum@yahoogroups.com, MaconBoczek@... wrote:
              >
              > Dear XuZhiyue, I cannot adequately speak for Voegelin's view
              on "civil
              > religion" , but I would like to make a clarification in
              definitions. Civil
              > religion is a sociological reality and traces its roots to
              Rousseau who wanted
              > "religion" to work in some controlling way in bringing an elite
              decided common
              > value to bond society. It really isn't religion at all but more
              of worship
              > of society itself in the tradition of Comte (And of course
              Voegelin wrote much
              > about this in From Enlightenment to Revolution. Bellah of course
              wrote
              > about what he called the American civil religion but what he
              failed to see was
              > that American "publick religion" was a moral reality more in line
              with the
              > Stoic religio than the French concept of civil religion. The
              difference is human
              > transcendence to the Beyond and so it is paramount. Sincerely,
              Macon Boczek
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • S.Barret Dolph
              If I am not mistaken there is pretty much what is sought after in the pursuit of a Confucian revival. (Ie. a rationalistic or humanist religion.)
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 3, 2006
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                If I am not mistaken there is pretty much what is sought after in the pursuit
                of a Confucian revival. (Ie. a "rationalistic" or "humanist" religion.)


                On Friday 04 August 2006 07:46, MaconBoczek@... wrote:
                > Dear XuZhiyue, I cannot adequately speak for Voegelin's view on "civil
                > religion" , but I would like to make a clarification in definitions.
                > Civil religion is a sociological reality and traces its roots to Rousseau
                > who wanted "religion" to work in some controlling way in bringing an elite
                > decided common value to bond society. It really isn't religion at all but
                > more of worship of society itself in the tradition of Comte (And of course
                > Voegelin wrote much about this in From Enlightenment to Revolution.
                > Bellah of course wrote about what he called the American civil religion
                > but what he failed to see was that American "publick religion" was a moral
                > reality more in line with the Stoic religio than the French concept of
                > civil religion. The difference is human transcendence to the Beyond and so
                > it is paramount. Sincerely, Macon Boczek
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > In consideratione creaturarum non est vana
                > et peritura curiositas exercenda; sed gradus
                > ad immortalia et semper manentia faciendus.
                > —St Augustine De vera religione
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
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