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Re: [evforum] Re: Problem with current thread

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  • Owen Jones
    As I think Voegelin documented, the diminution of spiritual substance... is often caused by instititional trends in religion itself, as we have been
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 1, 2005
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      As I think Voegelin documented, the "diminution of spiritual substance..." is often caused by instititional trends in religion itself, as we have been discussing of late regarding Anglicanism. THis diminution can take many forms, such as a kind of traditionalistic fundamentalism, or, as in the case of Anglicanism, a kind of secular utopianism. Voegelin would find structural equivalences in the inability to live by faith, the desire to return to a more compact form of existence, as he put it mildly, the desire to dominate, the deformation of consciousness in which certitude takes the place of faith. And then you have the attendant reaction to religious deformation in the form of various nihilisms and quack mysticism.

      And I hope I am not speaking out of turn when I say that almost any reasoned political or social observations, such as trends in religious behavior, could have something to do with Voegelin, almost inevitably.

      Finally, Voegelin did not write about everything or comment on everything, and was bemused by questions that imply that he should have! So there is a lot to be said and written about things, applying a rigorous "scientific" analysis a la Voegelin, without it just being a midrash on Voegelin. But that's one layman's opinion.

      stromthy4 <stromthy4@...> wrote: Mr. Wagner wrote: "The central political problem for our time is the
      substitution of ideology, whether gnostic or otherwise, for the vacuum
      caused by the diminution of spiritual substance in western society..."

      There are signs, yet inchoate and nascent, of a disturbing "otherwise"




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    • Rhydon Jackson
      Mr. Jones writes: But that s one layman s opinion. Well, at least two laymen. I heartily agree on all counts. The only thing I would add is that many trends
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 1, 2005
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        Mr. Jones writes: "But that's one layman's opinion."

        Well, at least two laymen. I heartily agree on all counts.

        The only thing I would add is that many trends can be active simultaneously and any one of them can have simultaneously contrasting effects, to use a poor term. This quickly leads into the whole complex of symbol, society, individual, etc.

        Rhydon Jackson
      • <none>
        It seems to me to be two different things to say that God is a symbol generated by experience and to say that God is a necessary postulate of our
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 1, 2005
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          It seems to me to be two different things to say that "God" is a symbol generated by experience and to say that "God" is a necessary postulate of our experience of "not-God." Two very different things indeed.

          Oddly, they are not necessarily at odds with one another.

          Jim Rovira

          "S. Barret Dolph" <wheds8@...> wrote: Thanks to Martin for his post. Given the following does anyone know if the
          interest in mysticism, icons, etc is a move to restore mysticism or a move
          away from mysticism.


          On Thursday 01 December 2005 02:02, Martin Pagnan wrote:
          > To get back on track one must recall that EV's work is an effort to
          > restore the study of philosophy to the status of science, rigorous
          > analytical thought concerning the structure of experienced reality. And,
          > political thought, as a sub-set of philosphical thought, to the status
          > of the science of political existence in society. In the course of doing
          > this and among many other things, EV reestablished that God is a given
          > in experience, but only given as a must be to which we find ourselves as
          > related from a distance. Intellectually, "God" is the symbol for that
          > necessary explanation that is realized to must be as soon as we obtain a
          > basic understanding of experienced order. This had long ago been
          > differentiated by the authors of Genesis and by Plato, among many others.





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        • S. Barret Dolph
          Thanks to Martin for his post. Given the following does anyone know if the interest in mysticism, icons, etc is a move to restore mysticism or a move away from
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 1, 2005
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            Thanks to Martin for his post. Given the following does anyone know if the
            interest in mysticism, icons, etc is a move to restore mysticism or a move
            away from mysticism.


            On Thursday 01 December 2005 02:02, Martin Pagnan wrote:
            > To get back on track one must recall that EV's work is an effort to
            > restore the study of philosophy to the status of science, rigorous
            > analytical thought concerning the structure of experienced reality. And,
            > political thought, as a sub-set of philosphical thought, to the status
            > of the science of political existence in society. In the course of doing
            > this and among many other things, EV reestablished that God is a given
            > in experience, but only given as a must be to which we find ourselves as
            > related from a distance. Intellectually, "God" is the symbol for that
            > necessary explanation that is realized to must be as soon as we obtain a
            > basic understanding of experienced order. This had long ago been
            > differentiated by the authors of Genesis and by Plato, among many others.
          • billr54619@aol.com
            One might say, It is both. Admittedly I am being a little bit flippant. My problem with this thread is not that it is off-topic, exactly, but it just
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 2, 2005
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              One might say, "It is both."

              Admittedly I am being a little bit flippant. My problem with this thread is
              not that it is off-topic, exactly, but it just erupted, and now it seems to be
              winding down with no real resolution of what was being discussed. Not
              atypical, but I would like to see some focus on the question of derailment, not being
              able at present to do a good job with it myself, schedules and priorities
              being what they are.

              Bill Riggs

              In a message dated 12/1/2005 11:17:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,
              wheds8@... writes:
              Thanks to Martin for his post. Given the following does anyone know if the
              interest in mysticism, icons, etc is a move to restore mysticism or a move
              away from mysticism.


              On Thursday 01 December 2005 02:02, Martin Pagnan wrote:
              > To get back on track one must recall that EV's work is an effort to
              > restore the study of philosophy to the status of science, rigorous
              > analytical thought concerning the structure of experienced reality. And,
              > political thought, as a sub-set of philosphical thought, to the status
              > of the science of political existence in society. In the course of doing
              > this and among many other things, EV reestablished that God is a given
              > in experience, but only given as a must be to which we find ourselves as
              > related from a distance. Intellectually, "God" is the symbol for that
              > necessary explanation that is realized to must be as soon as we obtain a
              > basic understanding of experienced order. This had long ago been
              > differentiated by the authors of Genesis and by Plato, among many others.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • billr54619@aol.com
              In a message dated 11/30/2005 11:37:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, stromthy4@yahoo.com writes: Mr. Wagner wrote: The central political problem for our time is
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 2, 2005
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                In a message dated 11/30/2005 11:37:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                stromthy4@... writes:
                Mr. Wagner wrote: "The central political problem for our time is the
                substitution of ideology, whether gnostic or otherwise, for the vacuum
                caused by the diminution of spiritual substance in western society..."

                There are signs, yet inchoate and nascent, of a disturbing "otherwise"
                (or perhaps it's not so otherwise):
                Reading through this, I cannot help but make an EVangelical statement:

                In spiritual combat, there are casualties. It has always been thus. It will
                always be so, until the eschaton is immanentized.

                Bill Riggs


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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