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Re: Dramatic Chronology of Plato

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  • pightle2000
    If anybody is interested, it turns out that _The People of Plato_, a recent book from Hackett by Debra Nails, has an appended dramatic chronology with great
    Message 1 of 29 , Mar 2, 2004
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      If anybody is interested, it turns out that _The People of Plato_, a
      recent book from Hackett by Debra Nails, has an appended dramatic
      chronology with great detail.

      Rhydon Jackson
    • pightle2000
      It seems that Voegelin gathered lots of materials late in his life on prehistoric symbolization and order. Does anybody know if this research got as far as a
      Message 2 of 29 , Mar 2, 2004
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        It seems that Voegelin gathered lots of materials late in his life on
        prehistoric symbolization and order. Does anybody know if this
        research got as far as a draft?

        Rhydon Jackson
      • Jack D. Elliott, Jr.
        ... I ve discussed this in years past with Fr. Brendan Purcell, who is quite familiar with this aspect of EV s work. I recall his telling me (if memory
        Message 3 of 29 , Mar 2, 2004
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          > It seems that Voegelin gathered lots of materials late in his life on
          > prehistoric symbolization and order. Does anybody know if this
          > research got as far as a draft?


          I've discussed this in years past with Fr. Brendan Purcell, who is quite
          familiar with this aspect of EV's work. I recall his telling me (if
          memory serves) about EV c planning to come to Ireland in the '70s(?) to
          examine prehistoric remains. Apparently Mrs. Voegelin would always
          drive during such field excursions. I believe that Brendan told me that
          nothing that he knew of was ever written based on this work, although
          there are allusions to it in CONVERSATIONS.

          Brendan has published a study of symbolism used at an Irish Neolithic
          site -- "Newgrange" -- an essay which is strongly influenced by EV:

          Brendan Purcell, "In Search of Newgrange: Long Night's Journey into
          Day," pp. 39-55, notes on pp. 319-323, Richard Kearney (ed.), THE IRISH
          MIND: EXPLORING INTELLECTUAL TRADITIONS, Wolfhound Press, Dublin, 1985.

          This essay was republished as a chapter in Brendan's THE DRAMA OF
          HUMANITY.

          Because of the absence of primary texts, prehistoric symbolism is
          intrinsically comparative, based largely on looking for equivalences in
          other archaeological sites and (perhaps more importantly) through
          ethnographic analogy.

          jack
        • Barry Cooper
          Most of V s discussion is found in his correspondence with Marie Keonig, whom he considered a gifted amateur. ... From: Jack D. Elliott, Jr.
          Message 4 of 29 , Mar 2, 2004
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            Most of V's discussion is found in his correspondence with Marie Keonig,
            whom he considered a gifted amateur.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Jack D. Elliott, Jr. [mailto:jde3@...]
            Sent: March 2, 2004 12:25 PM
            To: evforum@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [evforum] Re: Archaeology & Symbol

            > It seems that Voegelin gathered lots of materials late in his life on
            > prehistoric symbolization and order. Does anybody know if this
            > research got as far as a draft?


            I've discussed this in years past with Fr. Brendan Purcell, who is quite
            familiar with this aspect of EV's work. I recall his telling me (if
            memory serves) about EV c planning to come to Ireland in the '70s(?) to
            examine prehistoric remains. Apparently Mrs. Voegelin would always
            drive during such field excursions. I believe that Brendan told me that
            nothing that he knew of was ever written based on this work, although
            there are allusions to it in CONVERSATIONS.

            Brendan has published a study of symbolism used at an Irish Neolithic
            site -- "Newgrange" -- an essay which is strongly influenced by EV:

            Brendan Purcell, "In Search of Newgrange: Long Night's Journey into
            Day," pp. 39-55, notes on pp. 319-323, Richard Kearney (ed.), THE IRISH
            MIND: EXPLORING INTELLECTUAL TRADITIONS, Wolfhound Press, Dublin, 1985.

            This essay was republished as a chapter in Brendan's THE DRAMA OF
            HUMANITY.

            Because of the absence of primary texts, prehistoric symbolism is
            intrinsically comparative, based largely on looking for equivalences in
            other archaeological sites and (perhaps more importantly) through
            ethnographic analogy.

            jack


            In consideratione creaturarum non est vana
            et peritura curiositas exercenda; sed gradus
            ad immortalia et semper manentia faciendus.
            -St Augustine De vera religione
            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Barry Cooper
            That is, Koenig. ... From: Barry Cooper [mailto:bcooper@ucalgary.ca] Sent: March 2, 2004 12:43 PM To: evforum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [evforum] Re:
            Message 5 of 29 , Mar 2, 2004
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              That is, Koenig.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Barry Cooper [mailto:bcooper@...]
              Sent: March 2, 2004 12:43 PM
              To: evforum@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [evforum] Re: Archaeology & Symbol

              Most of V's discussion is found in his correspondence with Marie Keonig,
              whom he considered a gifted amateur.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Jack D. Elliott, Jr. [mailto:jde3@...]
              Sent: March 2, 2004 12:25 PM
              To: evforum@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [evforum] Re: Archaeology & Symbol

              > It seems that Voegelin gathered lots of materials late in his life on
              > prehistoric symbolization and order. Does anybody know if this
              > research got as far as a draft?


              I've discussed this in years past with Fr. Brendan Purcell, who is quite
              familiar with this aspect of EV's work. I recall his telling me (if
              memory serves) about EV c planning to come to Ireland in the '70s(?) to
              examine prehistoric remains. Apparently Mrs. Voegelin would always
              drive during such field excursions. I believe that Brendan told me that
              nothing that he knew of was ever written based on this work, although
              there are allusions to it in CONVERSATIONS.

              Brendan has published a study of symbolism used at an Irish Neolithic
              site -- "Newgrange" -- an essay which is strongly influenced by EV:

              Brendan Purcell, "In Search of Newgrange: Long Night's Journey into
              Day," pp. 39-55, notes on pp. 319-323, Richard Kearney (ed.), THE IRISH
              MIND: EXPLORING INTELLECTUAL TRADITIONS, Wolfhound Press, Dublin, 1985.

              This essay was republished as a chapter in Brendan's THE DRAMA OF
              HUMANITY.

              Because of the absence of primary texts, prehistoric symbolism is
              intrinsically comparative, based largely on looking for equivalences in
              other archaeological sites and (perhaps more importantly) through
              ethnographic analogy.

              jack


              In consideratione creaturarum non est vana
              et peritura curiositas exercenda; sed gradus
              ad immortalia et semper manentia faciendus.
              -St Augustine De vera religione
              Yahoo! Groups Links








              In consideratione creaturarum non est vana
              et peritura curiositas exercenda; sed gradus
              ad immortalia et semper manentia faciendus.
              -St Augustine De vera religione
              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • pightle2000
              Dr. Elliott mentioned Brendan Purcell s work The Drama of Humanity. I really enjoyed that one and hope the author is able to complete a treatment of human
              Message 6 of 29 , Mar 2, 2004
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                Dr. Elliott mentioned Brendan Purcell's work The Drama of Humanity.
                I really enjoyed that one and hope the author is able to complete a
                treatment of human origins he seems to be working on.

                Dr. Cooper mentioned Marie König, whose name appears often in
                Voegelin's late informal remarks. There don't appear to be English
                translations of the two König books I've heard of. I suppose
                Voegelin's correspondence with him must be in German too. Can
                anybody suggest an English work associated with König's work?

                There are so many new discoveries in this area that it really seems
                like a goldmine for extending, and I suppose necessarily expanding on
                and correcting, Voegelin's approaches. He often mentions the problem
                of data piling up without adequate theoretical attention and it seems
                to me this pile is beyond comprehension now and growing faster and
                faster.

                There is a huge amount of literature and countless controversies on
                the emergence of language. Prehistoric art gets semi-popular
                treatments like a recent book by Randall White brought out by Harry
                Abrams. Çatalhöyük and similar excavations are slowly progressing.
                Everywhere brand new techniques from the hard science appear to aid
                the archaeology. Giant swaths of territory are more or less
                untouched. There seems to be no match, for example, in the Americas
                to the work Cauvin surveys in the Levant on the rise of agriculture.
                And even the comparatively settled field of the archaeology of the
                bronze age Aegean can't seem to decide if there was or wasn't a
                Minoan thalassocracy.

                Oh well. Thanks to both my respondents for the answers.

                Rhydon Jackson
              • Jack D. Elliott, Jr.
                ... yes, and i suspect that to a large degree it will remain beyond comprehension. archaeological data is by its very nature skewed toward the material
                Message 7 of 29 , Mar 2, 2004
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                  pightle2000 wrote:
                  >
                  > There are so many new discoveries in this area that it really seems
                  > like a goldmine for extending, and I suppose necessarily expanding on
                  > and correcting, Voegelin's approaches. He often mentions the problem
                  > of data piling up without adequate theoretical attention and it seems
                  > to me this pile is beyond comprehension now and growing faster and
                  > faster.

                  yes, and i suspect that to a large degree it will remain beyond
                  comprehension. archaeological data is by its very nature skewed toward
                  the material aspects of human life, e.g. architecture, utensils and
                  tools, diet. matters pertaining to social order and the dimension of
                  consciousness -- illumination with meaning from within -- are
                  represented in the archaeological record only obliquely when there are
                  no accompanying texts. consequently interpretation of prehistoric
                  symbols usually has to resort to analogy, as i mentioned, involving
                  extrapolating from one (usually better known) case study to a lesser
                  known one, which at best establishes rough equivalences and at worst,
                  creates yet another hypothetical house of cards. certainly complex
                  meanings were there, yet establishing them with any degree of certainly
                  seems rather problematical.

                  jack
                • Owen Jones
                  Years ago I was able to obtain funding to translate Mrs. Konig s primary work into English. But Mrs. Konig is a very dogmatic Jungian and all of her
                  Message 8 of 29 , Mar 2, 2004
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                    Years ago I was able to obtain funding to translate Mrs. Konig's primary work into English. But Mrs. Konig is a very dogmatic Jungian and all of her interpretations of paleolithic symbols are couched in strictly Jungian terms. By that time Jung had fallen out of favor in the publishing world because of his pro-Nazi sentiments and we could not get it published. There is probably a copy of the english manuscript floating around somewhere.

                    pightle2000 <rhydon@...> wrote:
                    Dr. Cooper mentioned Marie K�nig, whose name appears often in
                    Voegelin's late informal remarks. There don't appear to be English
                    translations of the two K�nig books I've heard of. I suppose
                    Voegelin's correspondence with him must be in German too. Can
                    anybody suggest an English work associated with K�nig's work?

                    Rhydon Jackson



                    In consideratione creaturarum non est vana
                    et peritura curiositas exercenda; sed gradus
                    ad immortalia et semper manentia faciendus.
                    �St Augustine De vera religione


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                  • Owen Jones
                    I think Brendan, who is definitely NOT a Jungian, looks at the issue not so much comparatively, but empirically and experientially. The Paleolithicum shows
                    Message 9 of 29 , Mar 2, 2004
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                      I think Brendan, who is definitely NOT a Jungian, looks at the issue not so much comparatively, but empirically and experientially. The Paleolithicum shows evidence of a cosmology which is the the transcendent ground of order. Ireland seems to have been laid out on a grid system of dry walls that do not reflect a logic based on the herding of animals, or necessarily following the landscape, but based on a symbolic representation of divine order in the cosmos. And as Mrs. Koenig argues, the Neanderthals were not stupid! They buried their dead in an east-west direction, coordinated with the rising and falling of the sun. Their graves were filled with spheres fashioned of clay that had not use as pottery or a weapon, which she surmises is a representation of the cosmos. Her interpretation of the later cave paintings in France are illuminating, unlike that of the schlock anthropologist Joseph Campbell. She argues that they represent not a kind of naturalism, but rather a very
                      sophisticated lunar cult. The paintings of bulls horns show the artists as either inept at naturalistic representation, or they actually symbolize the lunar phases. Of course, Newgrange is an advanced observatory, not for the purpose of raw scientific observation, but rather to create the scene for an annual ritual ceremony of initiation that symbolizes spiritual rebirth and renewal of the society.

                      Simply put, this evidence confirms some of Voegelin's observations, such as, history is not a progression from superstition to enlightenment, but that there are constants in terms of experience and symbolization that moves from compactness to differentiation. That there are certain constants when it comes to representation of divine presence, and that the cosmological experience of order is our primary experience, once which we do not "advance" from or grow out of but can only become alienated from due to various disturbances of consciousness.

                      "Jack D. Elliott, Jr." <jde3@...> wrote:


                      Because of the absence of primary texts, prehistoric symbolism is
                      intrinsically comparative, based largely on looking for equivalences in
                      other archaeological sites and (perhaps more importantly) through
                      ethnographic analogy.

                      jack


                      In consideratione creaturarum non est vana
                      et peritura curiositas exercenda; sed gradus
                      ad immortalia et semper manentia faciendus.
                      �St Augustine De vera religione



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                    • Jack D. Elliott, Jr.
                      ... Here s the way that he described his method: ...faced with a symbol or group of symbols at Newgrange, we draw on whatever archaic experiences and
                      Message 10 of 29 , Mar 2, 2004
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                        Owen Jones wrote:
                        >
                        > I think Brendan... looks at the issue not so much comparatively, but empirically and experientially.

                        Here's the way that he described his method:

                        "...faced with a symbol or group of symbols at Newgrange, we draw on
                        whatever archaic experiences and symbolisations are available which are
                        POSSIBLY [italicized] equivalent to those we are seeking to understand.
                        In fact, the range of archaic symbolisations of experience is by no
                        means unlimited, and once it is accepted that the Boyne people, whatever
                        their unique contributions to human history, belong to the same
                        humankind that has developed its self-understanding and expression over
                        some 40,000 years, a comparative method which proceeds cautiously and
                        imaginatively seems the most justifiable in the circumstances."
                        note 8, pp. 319-320, in Brendan Purcell, "In Search of Newgrange:
                        Long Night's Journey into Day"
                      • Owen Jones
                        People will often say things verbally that they are not quite ready to commit to in writing for purposes of academic acceptance. There is certainly an
                        Message 11 of 29 , Mar 2, 2004
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                          People will often say things verbally that they are not quite ready to commit to in writing for purposes of academic acceptance. There is certainly an experiential dimension to Brendan's investigations.

                          "Jack D. Elliott, Jr." <jde3@...> wrote:

                          Owen Jones wrote:
                          >
                          > I think Brendan... looks at the issue not so much comparatively, but empirically and experientially.

                          Here's the way that he described his method:

                          "...faced with a symbol or group of symbols at Newgrange, we draw on
                          whatever archaic experiences and symbolisations are available which are
                          POSSIBLY [italicized] equivalent to those we are seeking to understand.
                          In fact, the range of archaic symbolisations of experience is by no
                          means unlimited, and once it is accepted that the Boyne people, whatever
                          their unique contributions to human history, belong to the same
                          humankind that has developed its self-understanding and expression over
                          some 40,000 years, a comparative method which proceeds cautiously and
                          imaginatively seems the most justifiable in the circumstances."
                          note 8, pp. 319-320, in Brendan Purcell, "In Search of Newgrange:
                          Long Night's Journey into Day"


                          In consideratione creaturarum non est vana
                          et peritura curiositas exercenda; sed gradus
                          ad immortalia et semper manentia faciendus.
                          �St Augustine De vera religione


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