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EV Digest, Vol 4, Issue 23

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      Today's Topics:

      1. Re: 12V LiFePO4 batteries (Cor van de Water)
      2. Re: NY Times slaps down Tesla S (brucedp5)
      3. Re: 12V LiFePO4 batteries (David Nelson)
      4. Re: 12V LiFePO4 batteries (Lee Hart)
      5. Re: 12V LiFePO4 batteries (Bruce EVangel Parmenter)
      6. Re: 12V LiFePO4 batteries (Jerry Yue)
      7. Re: 12V LiFePO4 batteries (Bruce EVangel Parmenter)
      8. Re: 12V LiFePO4 batteries (Jerry Yue)
      9. Re: 12V LiFePO4 batteries (Cor van de Water)
      10. 'The Flux Capacitor? Europes Fastest Street Legal EV - A 1975
      Enfield 8000 (Martin WINLOW)
      11. EVLN: 'These people were Leaf crazy', 2013 Leaf's 24A
      charging ability (brucedp5)
      12. EVLN: Chevrolet's electric star Spark @Geneva Motor Show
      (brucedp5)


      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Message: 1
      Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 13:37:55 -0800
      From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>, "Electric
      Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 12V LiFePO4 batteries
      Message-ID:
      <A73BC4B8B3218642A56A2C9EB01B44E0FE0EC9@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      I would definitely *not* lower the charging voltage
      because that simply means that your are running your car
      with an almost depleted battery....
      3.45V float charge per cell sounds perfectly OK, be it a little low
      for the normal charging, but acceptable as a longer time float level.
      Then simply add a BMS that keeps each cell at no more than 3.45V
      and there should be no issues.
      (Since the charging current can be excessively large in SLI application,
      many Li-Ion 12V replacement batteries come without BMS.
      I say that is bad practice - you will have to either influence the
      alternator to deliver no more than the allowed voltage, or your
      battery should disconnect from the charging voltage if it gets too high
      and cell(s) go outside safe values.

      BTW, 4.2V sounds way too high for this chemistry.

      Cor van de Water
      Chief Scientist
      Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
      Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
      Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
      Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203



      -----Original Message-----
      From: ev-bounces@... on behalf of Marcus Reddish
      Sent: Thu 2/14/2013 8:36 PM
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 12V LiFePO4 batteries

      Hello,
      There is one scenario I would guard against. I used 4 Headway cells as the
      12V aux battery in the 37 Jag. It is hard to say whether my difficulties
      were specific to just Headway or apply to all lifepo4 cells.

      Here's what happened: I charged each of the cells using a single charger
      and then hooked them in series. After letting them settle I hooked up the
      13.8V DC-DC. Everything seemed ok at first, but after a while, the
      voltages would start to deviate. By a LOT. One cell would be 4.2V and
      another 2.5V. YIKES! I would re-balance the cells, re-connect, and the
      same thing would happen. I replaced a few of the cells but it did not
      help. Eventually one cell would only go to 2.5V even when on the charger
      and got quite HOT. Since the charging voltage had to go somewhere, it went
      into heat. This is your perfect fire scenario.

      Here is my theory. The resting voltage of lithium is 3.333V BUT 13.8V / 4
      = 3.45V. This means the cells are constantly under a state of charge past
      their resting point. Tiny differences in resistance start to add up over
      hours and days. This causes the cells to deviate wildly (this is just my
      theory).

      The solution (in my mind) could be two-fold. 1. Use a BMS to prevent
      over-voltage/under-voltage if the cells do start to deviate. It should
      also alert you if your cells are out of whack. 2. A lower constant voltage
      of 13.3V would keep the cells out of the 'charge' zone and perhaps not
      'drive' so much deviation.

      Since the 12V lithium cells on the market are made up of smaller cells, I
      would be wary of this scenario and inquire to the manufacturer what they
      have done to prevent this.

      Cheers,
      Marcus

      On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 7:17 PM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter <
      brucedp5@...> wrote:

      > After reading what Bill posted
      >
      > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Boeing-787-battery-fire-caused-by-shorted-cell-tp4661251p4661254.html
      >
      > I wonder why any other type of Li-ion battery is sold?
      > It sounds like LiFePO4 is the only way to go, right?
      >
      > ...
      > Now I am curious. I personally have a need to replace a couple of 12V
      > group 24 deep cycle PbSO4 house batteries. These are not only used for
      > emergency 12VDC power for an .5 hour @1kW-load, but also start a small
      > 1kW genset.
      >
      > I have tried in the past two 6V traction batteries in series, but had to
      > put a 12V deep-cycle in series-parallel to be able to start the genset.
      >
      > *My question is why not use one 12VDC LiFePO4 battery. My small house
      > rack can handle one or two group 27, or 24 batteries.
      >
      > I was looking at
      >
      > http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-40Ah-LiFePO4-Lithium-Prismatic-Battery-Pack-with-AC-Charger-LP500-/250996143478?pt=Laptop_Batteries&hash=item3a70893576
      >
      > This one comes with a compatible charger. I have seen these in the past,
      > but would like to know
      > -are there better ones to consider,
      >
      > -has anyone tried these.
      >
      > If I did find one,
      > - should I disconnect the 12VDC recharging leads from the genset as the
      > voltages will be wrong for LiFePO4, right?
      >
      > I request evdl members to post their ideas, corrections, or any other
      > thoughts on my questions.
      >
      >
      > {brucedp.150m.com}
      >
      > --
      > http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software
      > or over the web
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
      > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
      >
      >


      --
      Marcus Reddish

      *North Valley Systems LLC*
      Stevensville, Montana
      406-360-8628
      northvalleyev.com
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      ------------------------------

      Message: 2
      Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 15:48:05 -0800 (PST)
      From: brucedp5 <brucedp5@...>
      To: ev@...
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NY Times slaps down Tesla S
      Message-ID: <1360885685420-4661277.post@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

      This latest batch of newswires on this topic of the continuing saga of Tesla
      CEO defending the product against another unfair besmirching, and other
      bought-n-paid-for media outlets now stepping in to support the NYT writer's
      feeble attempt to discredit Tesla's Model-S (and all plugins while they were
      at it), are now not allowing reader comments on most of the negative media
      outlets' pieces.

      Hmm, those media outlets want to dish is out, but do not want nor can not
      take public opinion.


      {brucedp.150m.com}



      --
      View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NY-Times-slaps-down-Tesla-S-tp4661229p4661277.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


      ------------------------------

      Message: 3
      Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 20:25:51 -0800
      From: David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 12V LiFePO4 batteries
      Message-ID:
      <CALxN3-g17z7v2nUQpWztPntrfXBfG6r_8mOXUxCK+t-SU_eHQg@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      I beg to differ with you Cor. Trying to "float" a LiFePO4 cell at
      3.45V will definitely overcharge it! The absolute highest voltage a
      LiFePO4 cell should be held at is 3.40V and 3.38V would be best.

      On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Cor van de Water <CWater@...> wrote:
      > I would definitely *not* lower the charging voltage
      > because that simply means that your are running your car
      > with an almost depleted battery....
      > 3.45V float charge per cell sounds perfectly OK, be it a little low
      > for the normal charging, but acceptable as a longer time float level.
      > Then simply add a BMS that keeps each cell at no more than 3.45V
      > and there should be no issues.
      > (Since the charging current can be excessively large in SLI application,
      > many Li-Ion 12V replacement batteries come without BMS.
      > I say that is bad practice - you will have to either influence the
      > alternator to deliver no more than the allowed voltage, or your
      > battery should disconnect from the charging voltage if it gets too high
      > and cell(s) go outside safe values.
      >
      > BTW, 4.2V sounds way too high for this chemistry.
      >
      > Cor van de Water
      > Chief Scientist
      > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
      > Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
      > Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
      > Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: ev-bounces@... on behalf of Marcus Reddish
      > Sent: Thu 2/14/2013 8:36 PM
      > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
      > Subject: Re: [EVDL] 12V LiFePO4 batteries
      >
      > Hello,
      > There is one scenario I would guard against. I used 4 Headway cells as the
      > 12V aux battery in the 37 Jag. It is hard to say whether my difficulties
      > were specific to just Headway or apply to all lifepo4 cells.
      >
      > Here's what happened: I charged each of the cells using a single charger
      > and then hooked them in series. After letting them settle I hooked up the
      > 13.8V DC-DC. Everything seemed ok at first, but after a while, the
      > voltages would start to deviate. By a LOT. One cell would be 4.2V and
      > another 2.5V. YIKES! I would re-balance the cells, re-connect, and the
      > same thing would happen. I replaced a few of the cells but it did not
      > help. Eventually one cell would only go to 2.5V even when on the charger
      > and got quite HOT. Since the charging voltage had to go somewhere, it went
      > into heat. This is your perfect fire scenario.
      >
      > Here is my theory. The resting voltage of lithium is 3.333V BUT 13.8V / 4
      > = 3.45V. This means the cells are constantly under a state of charge past
      > their resting point. Tiny differences in resistance start to add up over
      > hours and days. This causes the cells to deviate wildly (this is just my
      > theory).
      >
      > The solution (in my mind) could be two-fold. 1. Use a BMS to prevent
      > over-voltage/under-voltage if the cells do start to deviate. It should
      > also alert you if your cells are out of whack. 2. A lower constant voltage
      > of 13.3V would keep the cells out of the 'charge' zone and perhaps not
      > 'drive' so much deviation.
      >
      > Since the 12V lithium cells on the market are made up of smaller cells, I
      > would be wary of this scenario and inquire to the manufacturer what they
      > have done to prevent this.
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Marcus
      >
      > On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 7:17 PM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter <
      > brucedp5@...> wrote:
      >
      >> After reading what Bill posted
      >>
      >> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Boeing-787-battery-fire-caused-by-shorted-cell-tp4661251p4661254.html
      >>
      >> I wonder why any other type of Li-ion battery is sold?
      >> It sounds like LiFePO4 is the only way to go, right?
      >>
      >> ...
      >> Now I am curious. I personally have a need to replace a couple of 12V
      >> group 24 deep cycle PbSO4 house batteries. These are not only used for
      >> emergency 12VDC power for an .5 hour @1kW-load, but also start a small
      >> 1kW genset.
      >>
      >> I have tried in the past two 6V traction batteries in series, but had to
      >> put a 12V deep-cycle in series-parallel to be able to start the genset.
      >>
      >> *My question is why not use one 12VDC LiFePO4 battery. My small house
      >> rack can handle one or two group 27, or 24 batteries.
      >>
      >> I was looking at
      >>
      >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-40Ah-LiFePO4-Lithium-Prismatic-Battery-Pack-with-AC-Charger-LP500-/250996143478?pt=Laptop_Batteries&hash=item3a70893576
      >>
      >> This one comes with a compatible charger. I have seen these in the past,
      >> but would like to know
      >> -are there better ones to consider,
      >>
      >> -has anyone tried these.
      >>
      >> If I did find one,
      >> - should I disconnect the 12VDC recharging leads from the genset as the
      >> voltages will be wrong for LiFePO4, right?
      >>
      >> I request evdl members to post their ideas, corrections, or any other
      >> thoughts on my questions.
      >>
      >>
      >> {brucedp.150m.com}
      >>
      >> --
      >> http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software
      >> or over the web
      >>
      >> _______________________________________________
      >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
      >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
      >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      > --
      > Marcus Reddish
      >
      > *North Valley Systems LLC*
      > Stevensville, Montana
      > 406-360-8628
      > northvalleyev.com
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      > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
      > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
      > _______________________________________________
      > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
      > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
      >



      --
      David D. Nelson
      http://evalbum.com/1328
      http://www.levforum.com

      Nokia Lumia 920 Windows Phone 8


      ------------------------------

      Message: 4
      Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 23:03:44 -0600
      From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 12V LiFePO4 batteries
      Message-ID: <511DC1B0.1020009@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      On 2/14/2013 10:25 PM, David Nelson wrote:
      > I beg to differ with you Cor. Trying to "float" a LiFePO4 cell at
      > 3.45V will definitely overcharge it! The absolute highest voltage a
      > LiFePO4 cell should be held at is 3.40V and 3.38V would be best.

      More to the point; the self-discharge rate of lithium cells is so low
      that float charging them is not recommended. It isn't going to do any
      good, and may easily do a lot of harm!

      Back to the original question: How to balance four lithiums in series
      being used as a 12v battery. If you do nothing else, at least put a
      zener diode and light bulb in series across each cell. This will serve
      as a crude BMS. It's a poor regulator; but dirt cheap and better than
      nothing. It will a) bypass at least some of your excess charging
      current, b) tend to equalize the voltage across all four cells, and c)
      give you a visual indication if your voltage is just plain too high.

      A 3.9v 5w zener (1N5335) and #PR2 flashlight bulb should be about right.
      The 1N5335 shunts about 25ma at 3.3v, 100ma at 3.6v, 300ma at 3.9v (bulb
      dimly glowing), and 500ma at 4.1v (bulb lit).

      --
      For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, obvious,
      and wrong. -- H.L. Mencken
      --
      Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm


      ------------------------------

      Message: 5
      Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 21:32:04 -0800
      From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <brucedp5@...>
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 12V LiFePO4 batteries
      Message-ID:
      <1360906324.9728.140661191775765.5DA124F4@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain

      Ah Ha! That is what I saw in the back of the J.B. Straubel's Porsche
      conversion when I followed him using his pusher trailer to his home
      (many years ago). The pack just behind the front seats and had little
      light dimly lights between the cells. So, that was the BMS he used in
      his EV conversion design ... neat!

      ...
      OK, no one has posted about one of my queries as to if the prepackaged
      12V Li-ion battery that would drop as a replacement to my dying 12V
      group-24 deep cycle. So, I will assume there is no problem trying one.


      {brucedp.150m.com}



      -
      On Thu, Feb 14, 2013, at 09:03 PM, Lee Hart wrote: ...
      > Back to the original question: How to balance four lithiums in series
      > being used as a 12v battery. If you do nothing else, at least put a
      > zener diode and light bulb in series across each cell. This will serve
      > as a crude BMS. It's a poor regulator; but dirt cheap and better than
      > nothing. It will a) bypass at least some of your excess charging
      > current, b) tend to equalize the voltage across all four cells, and c)
      > give you a visual indication if your voltage is just plain too high.
      >
      > A 3.9v 5w zener (1N5335) and #PR2 flashlight bulb should be about right.
      > The 1N5335 shunts about 25ma at 3.3v, 100ma at 3.6v, 300ma at 3.9v (bulb
      > dimly glowing), and 500ma at 4.1v (bulb lit).
      -

      --
      http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class



      ------------------------------

      Message: 6
      Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 13:38:08 +0800
      From: Jerry Yue <evehicle.jerry@...>
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 12V LiFePO4 batteries
      Message-ID:
      <CAGhWQKoNOB_dJUHwttZ2PMhmehSdNcBbd4-KgJL82cFyMFe9zw@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      Sure, it will be ok to use the lithium battery on your car. I used a 12V
      lithium battery without bms on a SUV in 2008. It lasted half an year before
      it failed due to two times of over-discharge (I forgot to close headlamps).

      On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter <
      brucedp5@...> wrote:

      > Ah Ha! That is what I saw in the back of the J.B. Straubel's Porsche
      > conversion when I followed him using his pusher trailer to his home
      > (many years ago). The pack just behind the front seats and had little
      > light dimly lights between the cells. So, that was the BMS he used in
      > his EV conversion design ... neat!
      >
      > ...
      > OK, no one has posted about one of my queries as to if the prepackaged
      > 12V Li-ion battery that would drop as a replacement to my dying 12V
      > group-24 deep cycle. So, I will assume there is no problem trying one.
      >
      >
      > {brucedp.150m.com}
      >
      >
      >
      > -
      > On Thu, Feb 14, 2013, at 09:03 PM, Lee Hart wrote: ...
      > > Back to the original question: How to balance four lithiums in series
      > > being used as a 12v battery. If you do nothing else, at least put a
      > > zener diode and light bulb in series across each cell. This will serve
      > > as a crude BMS. It's a poor regulator; but dirt cheap and better than
      > > nothing. It will a) bypass at least some of your excess charging
      > > current, b) tend to equalize the voltage across all four cells, and c)
      > > give you a visual indication if your voltage is just plain too high.
      > >
      > > A 3.9v 5w zener (1N5335) and #PR2 flashlight bulb should be about right.
      > > The 1N5335 shunts about 25ma at 3.3v, 100ma at 3.6v, 300ma at 3.9v (bulb
      > > dimly glowing), and 500ma at 4.1v (bulb lit).
      > -
      >
      > --
      > http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
      > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
      >
      >
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      ------------------------------

      Message: 7
      Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 22:12:01 -0800
      From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <brucedp5@...>
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 12V LiFePO4 batteries
      Message-ID:
      <1360908721.15392.140661191788953.4F077DEF@...>

      Content-Type: text/plain

      Thanks Jerry for your response.
      Now, there are Low Voltage Disconnect circuits that I could add that
      would break the circuit at a set voltage. But the disconnect voltage on
      most of them are likely set for use with PbSO4 batteries.

      -What voltage would be a good disconnect voltage set point for that 12V
      Li-ion drop in battery? What voltage would prevent draining the Li-ion
      battery too low causing damage?


      {brucedp.150m.com}


      -
      On Thu, Feb 14, 2013, at 09:38 PM, Jerry Yue wrote:
      > Sure, it will be ok to use the lithium battery on your car. I used a 12V
      > lithium battery without bms on a SUV in 2008. It lasted half an year
      > before
      > it failed due to two times of over-discharge (I forgot to close
      > headlamps).
      >
      > On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter <
      > brucedp5@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Ah Ha! That is what I saw in the back of the J.B. Straubel's Porsche
      > > conversion when I followed him using his pusher trailer to his home
      > > (many years ago). The pack just behind the front seats and had little
      > > light dimly lights between the cells. So, that was the BMS he used in
      > > his EV conversion design ... neat!
      > >
      > > ...
      > > OK, no one has posted about one of my queries as to if the prepackaged
      > > 12V Li-ion battery that would drop as a replacement to my dying 12V
      > > group-24 deep cycle. So, I will assume there is no problem trying one.
      > >
      > >
      > > {brucedp.150m.com}
      -

      --
      http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and
      love email again



      ------------------------------

      Message: 8
      Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 14:26:13 +0800
      From: Jerry Yue <evehicle.jerry@...>
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 12V LiFePO4 batteries
      Message-ID:
      <CAGhWQKq_5XZ7m04VSEBE5k+DnwYK3Rt=KkDLWWK-L_HwtP_BSA@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      Generally, the low voltage is set as 2.0V/cell or 8.0V/pack for high power
      LFP and 2.5V/cell or 10.0V/pack for energy type LFP. Since we're using the
      lithium batteries for ourselves, so you can measure the voltages of the
      cells periodically. I have only one suggestion that, you'd better measure
      the charging current from your alternator and be sure that your lithium
      battery is capable for taking that current. Generally, the peak charging
      current ranges from 200A-500A. Ideally, choose a LFP battery with 1/3 or
      1/4 of the original lead acid battery. Of course, if you like to consume
      too much electricity when engine is off, you'd better use bigger LFP
      battery.
      Jerry
      On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter <
      brucedp5@...> wrote:

      > Thanks Jerry for your response.
      > Now, there are Low Voltage Disconnect circuits that I could add that
      > would break the circuit at a set voltage. But the disconnect voltage on
      > most of them are likely set for use with PbSO4 batteries.
      >
      > -What voltage would be a good disconnect voltage set point for that 12V
      > Li-ion drop in battery? What voltage would prevent draining the Li-ion
      > battery too low causing damage?
      >
      >
      > {brucedp.150m.com}
      >
      >
      > -
      > On Thu, Feb 14, 2013, at 09:38 PM, Jerry Yue wrote:
      > > Sure, it will be ok to use the lithium battery on your car. I used a 12V
      > > lithium battery without bms on a SUV in 2008. It lasted half an year
      > > before
      > > it failed due to two times of over-discharge (I forgot to close
      > > headlamps).
      > >
      > > On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter <
      > > brucedp5@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > Ah Ha! That is what I saw in the back of the J.B. Straubel's Porsche
      > > > conversion when I followed him using his pusher trailer to his home
      > > > (many years ago). The pack just behind the front seats and had little
      > > > light dimly lights between the cells. So, that was the BMS he used in
      > > > his EV conversion design ... neat!
      > > >
      > > > ...
      > > > OK, no one has posted about one of my queries as to if the prepackaged
      > > > 12V Li-ion battery that would drop as a replacement to my dying 12V
      > > > group-24 deep cycle. So, I will assume there is no problem trying one.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > {brucedp.150m.com}
      > -
      >
      > --
      > http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and
      > love email again
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
      > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
      >
      >
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      ------------------------------

      Message: 9
      Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 22:33:53 -0800
      From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>, "Electric
      Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 12V LiFePO4 batteries
      Message-ID:
      <A73BC4B8B3218642A56A2C9EB01B44E0FE0ECD@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      Since the cells might not be perfectly balanced,
      I would expect that when one cell dips to 2V, you can
      expect the others still to be around 3V, so I guess that
      it would be prudent to disconnect when the voltage dips
      to 11V (3x3+2)

      BTW, I did not suggest to float-charge the cells at 3.45V
      indefinitely, since no car is running 24/7.
      Typically a car is used a short period, sometimes a few hours,
      and then shut down, from which moment the battery is slowly
      discharged until the car has been started again.

      I believe the highest current in a (ICE) car is starting cold.
      That can run close to 1000A peak. Because AFAIK most alternators
      are in the 100A region, but it is certainly good to check for
      max charging current and adjust for it.
      NOTE that the net charging current is the difference between
      the alternator's generated current and the consumption of the car.

      Regards,

      Cor van de Water
      Chief Scientist
      Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
      Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
      Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
      Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203



      -----Original Message-----
      From: ev-bounces@... on behalf of Jerry Yue
      Sent: Fri 2/15/2013 11:56 AM
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 12V LiFePO4 batteries

      Generally, the low voltage is set as 2.0V/cell or 8.0V/pack for high power
      LFP and 2.5V/cell or 10.0V/pack for energy type LFP. Since we're using the
      lithium batteries for ourselves, so you can measure the voltages of the
      cells periodically. I have only one suggestion that, you'd better measure
      the charging current from your alternator and be sure that your lithium
      battery is capable for taking that current. Generally, the peak charging
      current ranges from 200A-500A. Ideally, choose a LFP battery with 1/3 or
      1/4 of the original lead acid battery. Of course, if you like to consume
      too much electricity when engine is off, you'd better use bigger LFP
      battery.
      Jerry
      On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter <
      brucedp5@...> wrote:

      > Thanks Jerry for your response.
      > Now, there are Low Voltage Disconnect circuits that I could add that
      > would break the circuit at a set voltage. But the disconnect voltage on
      > most of them are likely set for use with PbSO4 batteries.
      >
      > -What voltage would be a good disconnect voltage set point for that 12V
      > Li-ion drop in battery? What voltage would prevent draining the Li-ion
      > battery too low causing damage?
      >
      >
      > {brucedp.150m.com}
      >
      >
      > -
      > On Thu, Feb 14, 2013, at 09:38 PM, Jerry Yue wrote:
      > > Sure, it will be ok to use the lithium battery on your car. I used a 12V
      > > lithium battery without bms on a SUV in 2008. It lasted half an year
      > > before
      > > it failed due to two times of over-discharge (I forgot to close
      > > headlamps).
      > >
      > > On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter <
      > > brucedp5@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > Ah Ha! That is what I saw in the back of the J.B. Straubel's Porsche
      > > > conversion when I followed him using his pusher trailer to his home
      > > > (many years ago). The pack just behind the front seats and had little
      > > > light dimly lights between the cells. So, that was the BMS he used in
      > > > his EV conversion design ... neat!
      > > >
      > > > ...
      > > > OK, no one has posted about one of my queries as to if the prepackaged
      > > > 12V Li-ion battery that would drop as a replacement to my dying 12V
      > > > group-24 deep cycle. So, I will assume there is no problem trying one.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > {brucedp.150m.com}
      > -
      >
      > --
      > http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and
      > love email again
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
      > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
      >
      >
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      UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
      For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)




      ------------------------------

      Message: 10
      Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 08:42:52 +0000
      From: Martin WINLOW <m@...>
      To: EVDL Post Message <ev@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] 'The Flux Capacitor? Europes Fastest Street Legal EV -
      A 1975 Enfield 8000
      Message-ID: <5DCD5676-BA03-4709-807D-9B8C1EB80218@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

      Listees may find this project mildly diverting...

      www.flux-capacitor.co.uk

      Regards, Martin Winlow
      Herts, UK
      http://www.evalbum.com/2092
      www.winlow.co.uk





      ------------------------------

      Message: 11
      Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 00:56:45 -0800 (PST)
      From: brucedp5 <brucedp5@...>
      To: ev@...
      Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: 'These people were Leaf crazy', 2013 Leaf's 24A
      charging ability
      Message-ID: <1360918605569-4661292.post@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8


      There are more EVs in the SF Area than anywhere else in the U.S.

      http://www.siliconvalley.com/news/ci_22574565/electric-vehicles-home-charging-stations-juice-ev
      [images] Juice for an EV: Why more electric vehicle owners use home charging
      stations
      By Deborah Petersen 02/14/2013

      [images / Patrick Tehan/Staff
      http://www.siliconvalley.com/portlet/article/html/render_gallery.jsp?articleId=22574565&siteId=573&startImage=1
      Gallery - Shinya Fujimoto uses an Electric Vehicle charger for his Nissan
      Leaf that is installed in his...

      http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site568/2013/0209/20130209__ecct0216charger-2~1.JPG
      Shinya Fujimoto with the Electric Vehicle charger for his Nissan Leaf that
      is installed in his Fremont home.
      ]

      Fremont resident Shinya Fujimoto bought his Nissan Leaf during heady times
      for electric-vehicle fans.

      It was spring 2011, when there was so much anticipation over a shipment of
      these all-electric vehicles from Japan to the West Coast that someone
      climbed aboard a chopper, shot photos of the cars on shipboard on their way
      to Southern California and posted them on a blog popular among plug-in
      vehicle owners.

      "These people were crazy," says Fujimoto, who admits to being such an EV
      enthusiast that he keeps Excel spreadsheets to illustrate the savings his
      Leaf has brought over the gasoline-powered vehicle he drove before. (It's
      been about $100 to $150 per month, he says.)

      When Fujimoto's shiny baby-blue Nissan finally arrived in July of 2011 --
      after delays caused by Japan's tsunami -- he already had a key piece of
      equipment waiting for it: a home charging station.

      "I wanted to make sure I got it before I got the car," says Fujimoto. His
      240-volt Blink-manufactured station was installed a month before the car
      arrived. (Technically speaking, the charger itself is in the vehicle, and
      the plug-in station designed to deliver the charge most efficiently is known
      as the Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment, or EVSE.)

      Generally, electric vehicles can be charged by plugging in the car's
      charging cable to a regular household outlet, which in most cases delivers
      about 120 volts. But EV owners refer to the juice flowing through such
      "level 1" stations as a "trickle charge." A level 1 power source takes up to
      21 hours for a Nissan Leaf, for example, to go from zero to a full charge. A
      preferred level 2 AC charger, which delivers from 208 to 240 volts, takes
      eight hours or less. That is why an EVSE that is more efficient than a level
      1 outlet is found in more and more homes of EV owners.

      "There are probably more EVs here (in the San Francisco Bay Area) than
      anywhere else in the country," says Jason Smith, San Francisco regional
      sales manager for ECOtality, the company overseeing the EV Project, which
      installs chargers for free to qualifying Leaf owners in the Bay Area. (In
      other parts of the country, owners of the Chevrolet Volt -- a plug-in hybrid
      -- can also qualify for help from the EV Project.) "The early adopters are
      here -- which isn't surprising," Smith says, referring to the high-tech
      nature of the region.

      In general, preparing a home for a charging station is as simple as wiring
      the residence to power a clothes dryer, Smith says. Level 2 EV chargers, he
      explains, require a 40-amp circuit breaker, which most of today's homes
      already have. "The primary consideration is that there is a spare breaker on
      your main panel," Smith says. If so, "the installation is quite routine." He
      adds that the work should be done by a licensed electrician, and the
      installation requires a permit from the community where the EV driver lives.
      Older homes may require an electrical system upgrade, adding to the cost.
      Also, permit costs vary from community to community.

      These days, you can purchase charging stations at stores such as Lowe's and
      Home Depot, as well as at Amazon.com. But before selecting a station, EV
      drivers need to check their owners manuals and contact their auto dealers
      and utility companies to make sure their units are fully compatible with
      their cars, take full advantage of their charging capabilities and are
      likely to remain usable in the future, as EVs Shinya Fujimoto with the
      Electric Vehicle charger for his Nissan Leaf that is installed in his
      Fremont home.

      Boning up on electricity basics may make shopping for a station easier.
      Those who do so find that voltage refers essentially to how much electricity
      is available, and amperage to how fast that electricity is delivered.

      The 2013 Leaf, for example, will have a 24-amp charging capability, upgraded
      from the 2012 model. So if a driver of the 2013 model were to purchase a
      240-volt, 16-amp station, the vehicle will charge slower than it could with
      a 24-amp station. Conversely, an EV with a 16-amp charging capability will
      charge no faster if attached to a 24-amp station.

      Stations can also be purchased directly from manufacturers such as Blink,
      whose level 2 home model retails for $1,495. Blink's level 2 stations are
      also being installed at workplaces and in public spaces such as parking
      garages as part of the EV Project. And recently, ECOtality started
      installing a few of Blink's "Cadillac" charging stations in the Bay Area.
      These fast 480-volt DC chargers can deliver a full charge in just 25
      minutes. The latest "Cadillac" station installation was at the Concord
      Hilton this week, and companies such as Facebook have one, Smith says.

      Long charging times and relatively short mileage ranges from a single charge
      are the biggest factors that drive potential customers away from EV
      ownership at present. The Tesla has the longest range, but it comes with a
      higher price tag than the competitors.

      Since 2011, ECOtality has installed 1,700 chargers in Bay Area homes for
      free or at a minimal cost to the homeowner. That figure represents a
      significant percentage of the 6,500 chargers installed in homes throughout
      the United States under this program.

      The EV Project is funded by the U.S. Department of Energy and in this
      region, the Bay Area Air Quality Management District. Bay Area homeowners
      who qualify receive free chargers and up to $1,200 to cover installation
      costs. Residents of selected communities in nine other states and the
      District of Columbia are also eligible. However, the amount covered for
      installation cost is as low as $400 in some regions.

      To receive a charging station for free through the EV Project, the homeowner
      must agree to share data from it with the federal government. Data collected
      so far from the stations of Leaf and Chevrolet Volt (a [plug-in hybrid]
      model that also uses gasoline) drivers since 2009 covers 63 million miles of
      travel and offers a wealth of information on EV trends, including an
      increase in use of chargers away from home, according to Smith. The EV
      Project is winding down but is still accepting applications.

      Of his own installation, Fujimoto says, "It was very seamless for us."
      Still, it was not without challenges. The application process took three
      months, and when the station was installed in June, the first one did not
      work when tested. But the installer replaced it immediately with another
      from his truck, and that one tested OK.

      Jack Brown, who drives an electric BMW ActiveE, had a ChargePoint CT500
      station installed at his Aptos home for free by taking a different route. He
      received it through a program funded by the California Energy Commission,
      but he was expecting to pay $400 for a permit and inspection earlier this
      year. In the end, however, Brown decided to add solar panels to his home,
      too, and he negotiated a deal with no out-of-pocket expenses for the upgrade
      of his electrical panel and installation of the solar PV (photovoltaic)
      panels, which generate power for his own use and potentially an excess for
      the electric grid. SolarCity leases the PV panels that have been installed
      to Brown for $160 a month.

      ChargePoint, like Blink, has a network of level 2 chargers in commercial
      use. Both manufacturers issue cards that drivers use to activate the
      chargers. Both also offer smartphone apps and websites that can alert
      drivers to whether a charger is currently being used by another vehicle or
      not. These Web tools also notify the companies if a charger malfunctions.

      Brown, an IT manager, says, "This has worked out very well for us, but I
      would advise people to start the process early. It took us nearly five
      months to get everything turned on, between the city and PG&E."

      Today, EV owners remain a tiny minority among drivers in the United States,
      and the early adopters make up a tight-knit community that shares
      information on blogs and online forums. Some even share their electricity.
      Brown has listed his home charging station with Recargo and PlugShare to let
      other EV drivers know it is available to them, if needed.

      Fujimoto has opted to keep his garage charging station private. "I'm not
      that much of an electric (vehicle) advocate that I would allow strangers to
      come by," he says.

      Even so, Fujimoto says he loves the EV life. "People have to really
      experience it to understand -- to really understand what I mean."

      Deborah Petersen blogs about the EV life at
      http://myhusbandselectriccar.wordpress.com .


      FUEL DOLLARS saved
      By Two EV Owners

      For Shinya Fujimoto of Fremont, driving an EV has cut his gasoline bills,
      leaving him a net savings of $100 to $150 per month.
      For Jack Brown of Aptos, the savings are more dramatic, since he not only
      drives an EV but recently installed energy-generating photovoltaic solar
      panels on his home. Brown commutes to Fremont or Palo Alto daily, but
      because his solar panels generate all the electricity used at the home,
      including that for charging his EV, the $600 he used to spend monthly on
      gasoline has dropped to zero, as has his $100 bill for electricity formerly
      used elsewhere in the home. Now, his only electricity-related monthly
      expense is the $160 lease fee paid to SolarCity for his solar panels.

      How TO MINIMIZE
      EV charging costs

      Once a home EV charger is installed, the next consideration for the car
      owner is holding down electricity costs. PG&E customers will want to look
      into the company's TOU (time of use) options. They may qualify for a plan
      that gives them lower rates for plugging in their vehicle during off-peak
      hours. The rates and hours vary seasonally, but typically begin after
      midnight ...


      Online information

      [Where to find public charging stations:
      http://recargo.com EV Charging finder app/site, U.S. & Canada
      http://carstations.com EV Charging finder app/site, U.S.
      http://plugshare.com EV Charging finder app/site, U.S.
      http://openchargemap.com EV Charging finder app/site, Europe

      U.S. DoE EV Charging finder app/site, U.S.
      http://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html

      http://chargepoint.com ChargePoint EVSE Network
      http://blinknetwork.com Blink EVSE Network
      http://semacharge.com/stations SemaConnect EVSE Network
      http://350green.com/locate/ 350green EVSE Network

      http://mynissanleaf.com Nissan Leaf owners forum
      http://facebook.com/groups/BayLeafs San Francisco area Leaf owners
      http://myimiev.com/forum/ Mitsubitshi iMiev owners forum
      http://teslamotorsclub.com Tesla owners forum
      http://myfocuselectric.com/forum/ Focus electric owners forum
      http://myhondafitev.com/forum/ Honda Fit EV forum
      http://forum.bmwactivatethefuture.com/ BMW ActiveE
      http://gm-volt.com/forum Chevy Volt plugin-hybrid forum

      http://evseupgrade.com/ A useful upgrade to the Leaf EVSE

      http://plugincars.com Plug-in vehicle news]
      [? 2013 Bay Area News Group]
      ...
      http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Low-Cost-EVSE-td3835375.html
      Low cost EVSE




      For all EVLN posts use:
      http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date

      Here are today's archive-only EV posts:

      EVLN: California looking to extend HOV access for EVs until 2025
      EVLN: EV safety training @New Mexico 1st responders academy in Socorro
      EVLN: How does an EV get 99MPGe? MPGe ratings explained
      EVLN: Oregon working hard to lead the EV nation
      EVLN: Toyota Fun vii (vehicle, interactive, internet) concept EV
      EVLN: V-Tent deployable solar-canopy protects and charges your plugin
      +
      EVLN: Chevrolet's electric star Spark @Geneva Motor Show


      {brucedp.150m.com}



      --
      View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-These-people-were-Leaf-crazy-2013-Leaf-s-24A-charging-ability-tp4661292.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


      ------------------------------

      Message: 12
      Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 00:58:50 -0800 (PST)
      From: brucedp5 <brucedp5@...>
      To: ev@...
      Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Chevrolet's electric star Spark @Geneva Motor
      Show
      Message-ID: <1360918730808-4661293.post@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8


      2014 Chevrolet Spark EV Electric Car: Now Europe

      http://www.easier.com/112027-spark-ev-chevrolets-electric-star-geneva-motor-show.html
      [image] Spark EV: Chevrolet's electric star at Geneva Motor Show
      13 Feb 2013

      [image
      http://www.easier.com/uploads/cache/thumbs/1/1/2/027/400x400/73265/chevrolet-spark-ev.jpg
      Chevrolet Spark EV
      ]

      Following the global reveal of the Spark Electric Vehicle in Los Angeles
      last year, Chevrolet's all-new battery-powered mini car will be presented to
      a European audience for the first time at this year's Geneva Motor Show. The
      car will be sold in select European markets as of 2014.

      The Chevrolet Spark EV is anticipated to set a benchmark in performance for
      an urban city electric car and is powered by the most advanced electric
      motor and battery system General Motors has ever built.

      "The Spark EV is a fun-to-drive zero-emission city car with intelligent
      connectivity. We believe it will resonate particularly in some of Europe's
      most technologically advanced markets," says Susan Docherty, President and
      Managing Director of Chevrolet and Cadillac Europe. "Just like Volt, this
      nimble battery-powered vehicle is a proof point for Chevrolet?s ingenuity in
      delivering smart mobility solutions."

      Advanced propulsion system key to speedy take-off, competitive range

      Its sports-car-like acceleration and smooth, yet instantaneous, torque of
      542 Nm make the Spark EV a small car with enjoyable driving dynamics. The
      heart of the Spark EV's propulsion system is its GM-designed permanent
      magnet electric motor. It delivers more than 130 hp (100 kW) and will enable
      0-100 km/h acceleration in under 8.5 seconds.

      The Spark EV will be equipped with a lithium-ion battery system of more than
      20 kWh that operates with the help of an active liquid cooling and heating
      system. Thanks to the sophisticated technology of its battery pack, the
      Spark EV is expected to achieve an electric range that is among the best in
      its class.The battery pack has been engineered to enable both regular
      alternate current (AC) and direct current (DC) fast charging.

      DC fast charging will allow the car to recharge up to 80 percent of its
      capacity in approximately 20 minutes. Moreover, the battery system is
      capable of handling multiple DC fast charges daily. AC recharging requires
      between 6 and 8 hours, using a 230V outlet. A charge cord set is standard.

      Cutting-edge connectivity makes driving easier and more fun

      The Spark EV was designed to look edgy and expressive.Among the most
      prominent aspects of its stylish interior is a column-mounted instrument
      cluster that features one of two large seven-inch full-color LCD screens.
      The other display is located in the center stack and serves as the interface
      for infotainment, cabin climate controls and energy-efficiency data.

      The Spark EV will come with the Chevrolet MyLink connected radio technology
      as standard, which allows users to connect compatible smartphones to the
      radio with its high resolution touch screen. Chevrolet MyLink will support a
      number of select apps which will allow users to navigate using their
      smartphone, and listen to radio stations around the world through the
      internet. A rear-view camera will provide assistance when the car is in
      reverse.

      In addition, MyLink users who own a compatible iPhone* (as of 4S) running
      iOS6 will be able to utilise Siri, an advanced assist system, to perform a
      number of tasks while they safely keep their eyes on the road and hands on
      the wheel.

      * Siri requires Internet access. Siri may not be available in all languages
      or in all areas, and features may vary by area. Cellular data charges may
      apply.
      [? 2013 Easier]



      http://www.motorward.com/2013/02/chevrolet-spark-ev-set-for-european-launch/
      Chevrolet Spark EV Set for European Launch
      by Arman Barari Feb 13 2013

      [image
      http://www.motorward.com/wp-content/images/2013/02/Chevrolet-Spark-EV.jpg
      Chevrolet Spark EV
      ]

      Chevrolet announced their electric city car Spark EV is on its way to Geneva
      for its European debut. The car will be sold in selected markets in Europe,
      offering a cute design, 130 HP and 542 NM, and a range of advanced
      connectivity features.

      Spark EV is a pure electric car powered by an electric motor connected to a
      large battery pack. So there is the issue of range anxiety. Chevy is not yet
      ready to reveal numbers, but they say it is ?expected to achieve an electric
      range that is among the best in its class.? Not that it matters, but Spark
      EV does the 0 to 100 km/h run in 8.5 seconds.

      Charging the Spark EV takes between 6 and 8 hours, using a 230V outlet. You
      can get 80 percent charge in 20 minutes using a fast charger.

      Despite its size, Chevy Spark comes with decent equipments, including a
      column-mounted instrument cluster that features one of two large seven-inch
      full-color LCD screens. The other display is located in the center stack and
      serves as the interface for infotainment, cabin climate controls and
      energy-efficiency data.

      It also gets Chevrolet MyLink infotainment system with features like
      downloadable apps, smartphone integrity, rear-view camera, and Apple?s Siri
      integration.
      [? 2013 motorward.com ]



      http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082303_2014-chevrolet-spark-ev-electric-car-now-europe-gets-it-too
      2014 Chevrolet Spark EV Electric Car: Now Europe...
      News ? Auto Shows February 13, 2013 2014 Chevrolet Spark EV Electric Car:
      Now Europe... 2014 Chevy Spark EV prototype first drive ...




      For all EVLN posts use:
      http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date

      Here are today's archive-only EV posts:

      EVLN: California looking to extend HOV access for EVs until 2025
      EVLN: EV safety training @New Mexico 1st responders academy in Socorro
      EVLN: How does an EV get 99MPGe? MPGe ratings explained
      EVLN: Oregon working hard to lead the EV nation
      EVLN: Toyota Fun vii (vehicle, interactive, internet) concept EV
      EVLN: V-Tent deployable solar-canopy protects and charges your plugin
      +
      EVLN: 'These people were Leaf crazy', 2013 Leaf's 24A charging ability


      {brucedp.150m.com}



      --
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