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EV Digest, Vol 42, Issue 1

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      Today's Topics:

      1. Re: Silent Shadow motor experiment failed. Shaft drive 3.5
      toone ratio. (Cor van de Water)
      2. Re: Silent Shadow motor experiment failed. Shaft drive 3.5 to
      (Lawrence Rhodes)
      3. Re: Silent Shadow motor experiment failed. Shaft drive 3.5 to
      (Mark Grasser)
      4. Re: Silent Shadow motor experiment failed. Shaft drive 3.5 to
      (David Nelson)
      5. Re: 32 Kwh Lithium Battery Give Away (Ricky Suiter)
      6. Re: Li strapping hardware dimensions (corbin dunn)
      7. High voltage wiring next to low voltage wiring (corbin dunn)
      8. Re: High voltage wiring next to low voltage wiring (Roland Wiench)
      9. Fw: Re: [NEDRA] Re: Cell Testing (Jeff Mccabe)
      10. Re: Charging in a Pond (Chuck Hursch)
      11. Re: Li strapping hardware dimensions (Martin WINLOW)
      12. Re: High voltage wiring next to low voltage wiring (corbin dunn)
      13. Re: High voltage wiring next to low voltage wiring
      (barry@...)
      14. Secondary fuse location in battery pack (corbin dunn)
      15. Re: Secondary fuse location in battery pack (Roland Wiench)


      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Message: 1
      Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2011 04:09:57 +0530
      From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Silent Shadow motor experiment failed. Shaft drive
      3.5 toone ratio.
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <1E3D081C7B502B4A988F643E604CF963012B1CAB@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      Lawrence,

      I don't know the wheel circumference and your speed uphill,
      but I am guessing that the motor was doing less than 1500RPM
      so without additional cooling (blower) the motor is lugging
      uphill and generating way too much heat for the restricted
      cooling at these low RPMs.
      The 3.5 reduction sounds fine for a Freeway vehicle that has
      to do well beyond 100 MPH, but for city driving and in
      particular for San Francisco hill climbing it is unsuited.

      I think one of your previous bikes failed initially burnign up the
      motor because it was geared with way too low reduction until you
      put a *large* sprocket on the rear wheel.
      I think this vehicle is suffering from the same problem and
      in addition too little (forced) cooling.
      (Of course I could be mistaken if you run tiny wheels, you
      did not provide enough info to calculate RPMs)

      Success,

      Cor van de Water
      Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
      Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
      Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
      Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
      Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
      Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

      -----Original Message-----
      From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
      Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 11:31 PM
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
      Subject: [EVDL] Silent Shadow motor experiment failed. Shaft drive 3.5 toone ratio.

      John Husted was kind enough to provide me with a Yale Forklift motor that is 8 inch in diameter.?http://www.evalbum.com/1043? I zipped up a couple of hills with the 3.5 to one gear ratio shaft drive and it's as smooth as they come.??It had good power.? ?Maybe a third of a mile of EV grin and?steady powerful climbing when I came to a halt at a stop sign I heard snap, crackle, sizzle and pop along with smoke.? I coasted home and put her up.? A?15 minutes?later the motor body was too hot to touch.? The next day I went up one hill with a volt meter keeping it to 36v.? The motor heated up and slightly smoked.? I couldn't see the smoke but a neighbor and motorcycle rider did.? He got his face close. I was in the saddle.? Jim and I thought the Yale was massive enough to be a good heat sink.? Well no.? Probably wound wrong.? So the experiment failed in my opinion.? So I'm looking for a K91 ADC motor used.? If anyone has one please let me know what you'd like for it.? I think I can b!
      olt it right in.? My other option is to have Jim perform surgery on an 8 inch ADC reducing the length so I can fit it into the bike.? Below is a working shaft drive bike comuter.? The owner states the motor can get hot.? So maybe the other part of the experiment is showing that the shaft drive ratio is not good for this kind of conversion unless you have a massive heatsink or live on level ground.? I think the Vision owner lives in Santa Rosa.? It's a flat valley mostly.? ?If?Larry gets this what is the final ratio of your shaft drive?Vision?? What kind of riding do you do? Anybody else have a successful shaft drive motorcycle at around a 3.5 to one ratio.?Some have used Jack shafts which I want to avoid. All that being said I really like the one gear solution using shaft drive.? I like it alot and there has to be some solution.? ?White Zombie uses a massive motor as well as Killacycle.? Need I go to two motors?? How do I fit it in?? Lawrence Rhodes.





      http://www.evalbum.com/141.html? Yamaha Vision which uses a K91.

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      ------------------------------

      Message: 2
      Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 14:40:54 -0800 (PST)
      From: Lawrence Rhodes <primobassoon@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Silent Shadow motor experiment failed. Shaft drive
      3.5 to
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <367411.39563.qm@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

      I think a K91 might work with or with out forced air.? If I keep the amps below
      the continous rating one would think that would do it.?




      ------------------------------

      Message: 3
      Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 18:36:01 -0500
      From: "Mark Grasser" <markgrasser@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Silent Shadow motor experiment failed. Shaft drive
      3.5 to
      To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <001201cba943$7d1d8260$77588720$@net>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      "Continuous rating" again would be with proper cooling. I too must again say
      that cooling is probably the issue. I don't remember the voltage and current
      you plan as Continuous but as an example, 48 volts at 30 amps is over 1,400
      watts of heat to dissipate. Without lots of air movement or heat sinking,
      focused points of heat will burn up fast.

      Sincerely,
      Mark Grasser



      -----Original Message-----
      From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
      Of Lawrence Rhodes
      Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 5:41 PM
      To: ev@...
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Silent Shadow motor experiment failed. Shaft drive 3.5
      to

      I think a K91 might work with or with out forced air.? If I keep the amps
      below
      the continuous rating one would think that would do it.?


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      ------------------------------

      Message: 4
      Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 15:54:10 -0800
      From: David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Silent Shadow motor experiment failed. Shaft drive
      3.5 to
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <AANLkTikUqyNtcWADcPcMhq0qf7idOL5A5Xi05qiYuA_K@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      My Gizmo had the same problem, too slow of an RPM to cool the motor
      with a 3:1 ratio. I could only go to 4:1 but that helped immensely.
      Before the change I only got a little over 2500 miles out of it before
      I sent it to Jim Husted to work his magic on it. He said it was clear
      that it was over heating. I have since put nearly 9000 miles on it
      with forced cooling for the the past 5300 miles and it is still doing
      nicely. I added the cooling when I installed my LFP pack since I now
      can go 70 miles between charges. Get some air through that and I think
      you will find a big difference. FWIW, my motor is 6.7" dia and 11"
      long. It is a SepEx motor.

      --
      David D. Nelson
      http://evalbum.com/1328



      ------------------------------

      Message: 5
      Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 16:37:33 -0800 (PST)
      From: Ricky Suiter <ricksuiter@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 32 Kwh Lithium Battery Give Away
      To: EV List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <154134.28348.qm@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

      Lee,
      No it's unrelated.

      At this point I can say we selected three winners, I've heard back from two and am waiting to get an acceptance from the third before I announce it. There will be something on our web page when this happens.

      Regards,
      Rick Suiter
      Elite Power Solutions LLC


      >Is this the same contest, or related to the one that Jack Rickard was
      >promoting? I haven't heard anything on that one, either.




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      ------------------------------

      Message: 6
      Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 17:10:43 -0800
      From: corbin dunn <corbin@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Li strapping hardware dimensions
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <8730B95C-BB35-4DD1-934E-472E68D1593B@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


      On Dec 31, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Willie McKemie wrote:

      > On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 10:38:32AM -0800, corbin dunn wrote:
      >> Hey gary -- good point; I considered 1/4", but it is just so heavy...and the bug is already weighing more than I hoped! I just dropped my front batteries in the front trunk, and I think I'm going to need new shocks :)
      >>
      >> I'll definitely let everyone know how the 1/8" end plates work out once I get the thing driving. I have a big hill (highway 17, in Santa Cruz), which will definitely test the car out on a daily basis.
      >
      > A agree with Gary, !/8" SEEMS too thin and not stiff enough. Have you
      > seen how ThunderSky bearing plates are made? You could approximate
      > them by welding about 1/4" thick stiffening strips, maybe 1" wide, to
      > your bearing plates and positioned under your plastic straps.


      I haven't seen the thundersky ones in person, but I have seen pictures. They indeed do look thicker than 1/8", and they look ribbed for strength.

      For mine, I'm already set on using 1/8", since they are now all in the car. Plus, I don't have a TIG welder, which I would need to weld aluminum. I'll look into a solution if I do get swelling issues. We'll see how it works soon...

      corbin






      ------------------------------

      Message: 7
      Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 18:12:59 -0800
      From: corbin dunn <corbin@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] High voltage wiring next to low voltage wiring
      To: EVDL Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <8E0BEEE1-4D07-4036-894C-AC91B99C16B0@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

      Hi All,
      This might be a silly question, but I'm new to building my own EV. Is it bad to have a single high voltage 2/0 wire right next low voltage wiring for the car? Or, will there be some sort of back EMF noise that will affect things? Or, is it okay to do this?

      thanks!
      corbin




      ------------------------------

      Message: 8
      Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 19:46:17 -0800
      From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage wiring next to low voltage wiring
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <SNT144-ds11AF1CE3CB0BBC341CDF59BE050@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      Hello Corbin,

      When we install industrial wiring with different voltage and phasing range,
      it is best to group the same voltage wires together in a separate conduit or
      duct way. Each wire then can have its own voltage rating. Do not place 600
      voltage rating wire that carries a higher voltage then a lower voltage
      rating wire as for 12 volt.

      You can group wires together with different voltages, if all the wires are
      rated at the highest voltage. I use 600 volt double jacket wire that is
      design for chassis work. It has a thicker softer insulation than the wire
      that is design for conduit.

      If the lower voltage wires are control voltages and communication systems
      between sensor and instruments, these wires should be shielded or sometimes
      double shield.

      I run all my power cables, charging cables, high voltage, low voltage,
      communication systems and the Link-10 cable all in the same duct way that
      goes through the center console in the vehicle.

      The comm wires and Link-10 cables are double shield where there is a
      floating ground shield around each wire which is bundle together, inner
      jacket and another ground shield that is only connected to the vehicle
      chassis ground.

      I then install each cable and wire circuits in a separate black plastic
      thinwall flexible conduit made by Thomas and Betts or you can use wire loom
      you can get at a auto store. Thomas and Betts make black plastic conduit
      box connectors that will attach to these type of conduit. It makes a
      professional type of installation where you do not have any bare wiring
      showing.

      I also run a counterpoise ground system in my EV. Instead of relying on the
      sheet metal of a vehicle to carry the grounding circuits, I run a No. 1 AWG
      39 strand insulated copper wire in a complete circle around the inside of
      the vehicle from the negative of the 12 volt battery or 12 volt DC-DC
      converter and then back again to the negative.

      Each panel is ground by using a plated through bolt standoff that attaches
      the wire connector and take off to other equipment. Then I may have
      separate ground wires going to the negative too. I also ground all
      electrical enclosures and chassis plates at two points each.

      In my comm system, I do not have any noise at all on my AM, even though the
      speaker wires which are also double shield run though the same duct way.

      Roland







      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "corbin dunn" <corbin@...>
      To: "EVDL Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 6:12 PM
      Subject: [EVDL] High voltage wiring next to low voltage wiring


      > Hi All,
      > This might be a silly question, but I'm new to building my own EV. Is it
      > bad to have a single high voltage 2/0 wire right next low voltage wiring
      > for the car? Or, will there be some sort of back EMF noise that will
      > affect things? Or, is it okay to do this?
      >
      > thanks!
      > corbin
      >
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
      > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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      >



      ------------------------------

      Message: 9
      Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2011 00:16:48 -0800 (PST)
      From: Jeff Mccabe <jeff.mccabe@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] Fw: Re: [NEDRA] Re: Cell Testing
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <892330.10849.qm@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8



      --- On Fri, 12/31/10, Jeff Mccabe <jeff.mccabe@...> wrote:

      > From: Jeff Mccabe <jeff.mccabe@...>
      > Subject: Re: [NEDRA] Re: Cell Testing
      > To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Friday, December 31, 2010, 10:23 PM
      > Hello John,
      > ? You have truly been a large influence and inspiration in
      > to how I design my Ev's
      > ? The first version of my 928 had 1,300lbs of lead. Very
      > stiff lead(pc1500 in parallel), but even with this it
      > weighed the same as the stock 928. This was done through
      > extensive weight reduction. But as usual, being my first EV
      > and battery pack. It was truly tired at only 5,000 miles.
      > ? Now with my Lithium pack(800lbs lighter), it has truly
      > been reborn as a true sports car.
      > My pack has been designed to only use 7c even at 1200
      > battery side amps. This just half of what it is capable of.
      > Also even though I have up 120 range at 60mph, my daily
      > commute is only 42 miles. The longest I have ever taken it
      > was 92 miles between charges. My longest day was last July,
      > when I drove to Laguna Seca(70 miles), charged for a few
      > hours, then drove on the track for three sessions(25 miles),
      > charged for about three more hours, then drove home. All
      > told just under 170 miles.
      > ? So I truly hope my pack will last for many years to
      > come :)
      > ???Also John, anytime some one doubts what
      > home conversion Ev's can really do... I send them right to
      > your site or one of the many You Tube video's of white
      > Zombie.
      >
      > Happy New Year to all !
      > ? ? ? Jeff
      > ?
      > ?
      >
      > --- On Fri, 12/31/10, John Wayland <jw@...>
      > wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: John Wayland <jw@...>
      > Subject: [NEDRA] Re: Cell Testing
      > To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Friday, December 31, 2010, 8:42 PM
      >
      >
      > ?
      >
      >
      >
      > Hello to Thomas and All,
      >
      > Before reading the following, note that I am deep into
      > lithium these days and am a huge fan of today's lithium
      > packs that provide up to 8 times the range per weight of
      > lead acid batteries, deliver excellent cycle life, and can
      > also deliver quite a whollop in terms of insane power
      > density, too.
      >
      > lithiumstart wrote:
      > ?
      >
      > Hi Jeff,
      >
      > ?15k miles on a homebuilt EV is already way above average
      > I'm sure. I'll bet most first conversions go about as far as
      > an oil change or less on their first set of batteries, let
      > along 15k without any loss of range. Sweet!
      >
      > You are right about most 'first conversions' and
      > battricide. You don't however, have to have lithium to get
      > 15k, 20k, 25k, and more dependable miles from the battery
      > pack....you can do it with good 'ol lead acid, too! By the
      > time I helped my dear friend Dick 'hotrod' Finley build Red
      > Beastie, the 100+ mile per charge electric pickup, I had
      > been into EVs for 17 years and had learned a few things
      > about batteries. The battery pack in that famous pickup was
      > made up of 40, 6V - 225 ah (C20) golf car batteries that
      > were finally replaced at 31,000 miles when its range per
      > charge had dropped to 50 miles. When new, on more than one
      > occasion the pack was pushed to 100% DOD and delivered
      > 120 miles @ 65 mph in warm weather driving. More typically
      > when being kind to the batteries, the truck could do 96
      > miles at 80% DOD. The secret to making these ordinary
      > batteries act in an extraordinary fashion, was treating them
      > the way they want to be treated. To do this, compromises
      > were made to keep the batteries in their sweet spot. The
      > motor controller was limited to 450 max input amps, thus the
      > max. discharge current each battery every saw, was 225 amps.
      > At 65 mph on level ground, the 9 inch ADC motor pulled about
      > 125 amps with the pack voltage at around 126V. With ~ 100
      > miles per full charge and assuming an 80% DOD, most trips in
      > the 50 mile range represented just 40% DOD, so this too, was
      > easy on the batteries.
      >
      > For those who don't remember, Dick had built his
      > tire-burning Renault Le Car? that though short- range
      > limited to 20-25 miles on its small Optima pack, could blow
      > away muscle cars in a 0-40 mph stoplight to stoplight dash.
      > He
      > became a legend around here as the mid-70 year old tough
      > guy with the big EV grin shoehorned into that tire-smoking
      > tiny car. Once he had conquered the speed myth about EVs,
      > Dick wanted to make a lead acid powered EV that could do 100
      > miles per charge while being 'un-weird' - read that not some
      > minimalist three-wheeled cockroach. Back in 1997, I was
      > fortunate to have been the co-designer/builder with him on
      > the Red Beastie, a '95 model red Toyota XtraCab electric
      > pickup, powered by a bed load of 6V golf car wet cell T-105
      > model Trojans. This larger than normal battery pack weighed
      > in at a whopping 2480 lbs., close to the stock curb weight
      > of the pickup! The converted truck weighed 5260 lbs. and had
      > air bag suspension to handle the weight. I told Dick it was
      > one beast of a Toyota - he smiled and said, yeah it's the
      > 'Red Beastie!...that name stuck. The truck was equipped with
      > power brakes, power steering, beefed up lighting, and a
      > rock'n sound system. It
      > wouldn't win any stoplight drag races and slowed a bit on
      > steeper hills, but if allowed to wind out on an open
      > highway, it could hit 85 mph and had no trouble traveling
      > freeway speeds.
      >
      > The Beastie was the first electric vehicle to make the 350
      > mile round trip between Portland, OR and Seattle, WA on the
      > I-5 freeway freeway system, when it covered a total of 440
      > miles over a weekend, more than a decade before any Teslas
      > did it. Unlike the lithium powered Tesla however, with its
      > massive lead acid battery pack, the Beastie was certainly a
      > compromised vehicle that was very much over weight and had
      > lost all of its pickup truck functionality.
      >
      > Today with lithium, the same 120 mile per charge truck
      > could made so much better! Instead of the truck's utility
      > being sacrificed by completely filling the bed with 2480
      > lbs. of lead, just 600 lbs. of lithium could all be mounted
      > 'under the bed' for a much better CD and a fully usable bed!
      > With the curb
      > weight reduced? from 5260 lbs to a more reasonable 3380
      > lbs., the truck would accelerate better and handle as
      > normal. With quality lithium and 2000 expected cycles,
      > 240,000 miles is possible!
      >
      > Special note...a certain member of the road team on that
      > historic 1-5 freeway electric road trip got to experiment
      > and play with fast charging at high power levels - the
      > formative years of Manzanita Micro! Back then, the Madman
      > lived up his nickname when his weapon of choice was his
      > 'Ammo-box' charger, a bunch of high powered sci-fi parts
      > stuffed in an ammo-box that we used at Father Time's EV shop
      > to refill a very thirsty Red Beastie. When Rudman twisted
      > the big handle on the box, the street lights flickered and a
      > red light came on the power pole transformer! This was
      > obviously before he got wise to power factor corrected
      > charger design! The Beastie served as Rudman's test bed for
      > both charging equipment and the DCP line of controllers.
      > Today, Rudman
      > gets to play with the Zombie in similar ways. Funny, with
      > just 345 lbs. of Dow Kokam cells, the Zombie can match the
      > range per charge of the Red Beastie - and it's juts a bit
      > quicker!
      >
      > See Ya...John Wayland
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > __._,_.___
      >
      > Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post |
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      ------------------------------

      Message: 10
      Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 19:55:30 -0800
      From: Chuck Hursch <ch10h3@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging in a Pond
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <4D1EA5B2.8080708@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      Maybe I should ask... Have people been readily charging without
      problems using a Zivan-type charger (K2, NG3) and a GFCI? I think these
      GFCIs were citing 4-6mA trip levels from what I remember.

      Thanks,
      Chuck

      On 12/30/2010 2:40 PM, Chuck Hursch wrote:
      > Thanks to Keith and David for suggestions. It looks like there are some
      > possibilities there. My current favorite is probably going to be the
      > user attachable 54880R near the bottom of the page. I'll have to check
      > over the prices, etc. to make a final determination, but I think I'll be
      > getting that third safety requirement under control soon. I doubt I
      > will have nuisance trips with an isolated charger, but I'll be keeping
      > my fingers crossed.
      >
      > On 12/29/2010 6:06 PM, EVDL Administrator wrote:
      >> On 29 Dec 2010 at 14:14, Chuck Hursch wrote:
      >>
      >>> I've been keeping an eye peeled for a GFCI 20A adapter I could plug into
      >>> my current outlet in the ceiling ....
      >>
      >> You might find what you need here :
      >>
      >> http://www.lindequipment.net/main2.cfm?id=E6BE1CFE-1372-5A65-
      >> 3B02F0641BB39B3F
      >>
      >> http://tinyurl.com/2ahlt6q
      >>
      >> Thanks for the tale. And people wonder why I think isolated chargers are
      >> worth the extra money! ;-)
      >
      > I've been buzzed too many times grabbing the door handle or somesuch
      > when charging with a variac and my feet are wet on wet ground. I tend
      > to think I'm potentially getting off lucky too when that happens. The
      > main problem is the front metal racks and perhaps additionally carbon
      > dust in the motor. But even w/o those two issues I'd be bugged out
      > knowing that my pack would be live relative to ground in a very wet car.
      > GFCI ought to be good for lowering the blood pressure a few more
      > points :-)
      >>
      >> David Roden
      >> EVDL Administrator
      >> http://www.evdl.org/
      >>
      >>
      >> _______________________________________________
      >> | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
      >> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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      >>
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
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      >



      ------------------------------

      Message: 11
      Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2011 14:52:39 +0000
      From: Martin WINLOW <m.winlow@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Li strapping hardware dimensions
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <42117BEA-2C29-42BA-B80E-51BA2519B4D5@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

      My impression was that if you don't over/under-charge them that they
      don't swell much if at all anyway. Certainly my TS160's (bought mid
      '08) strapped up into 7's or 8's with 1/8" mild steel end plates
      secured with 5 plastic straps have not swelled at all. I haven't had
      any significant accidents with charge state - YET and have had over
      and under voltage protection all the time.

      I see JR is using no strapping at all in his re-hash of Speedster Mk
      I... but they are the blue CALB cells... 1/8" aluminum may not be
      strong enough on the TS's.

      Regards, Martin Winlow
      Herts, UK
      http://www.evalbum.com/2092
      www.winlow.co.uk

      On 31 Dec 2010, at 18:38, corbin dunn wrote:

      > Hey gary -- good point; I considered 1/4", but it is just so
      > heavy...and the bug is already weighing more than I hoped! I just
      > dropped my front batteries in the front trunk, and I think I'm going
      > to need new shocks :)
      >
      > I'll definitely let everyone know how the 1/8" end plates work out
      > once I get the thing driving. I have a big hill (highway 17, in
      > Santa Cruz), which will definitely test the car out on a daily basis.
      >
      > corbin
      >
      > On Dec 31, 2010, at 8:03 AM, gary wrote:
      >
      >> I'm not sure how much pressure is required on these cells to stop
      >> them
      >> from bowing out on the ends but I've seen a couple sets do that.
      >> Maybe
      >> just under abuse but I don't know. It seems that the 1/8" aluminum
      >> plate and straps may not be rigid enough across the width to prevent
      >> gradual bowing out of the cells. This is not based on any real
      >> knowledge, data or calculations - just a thought.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> On 12/30/2010 10:15 PM, corbin dunn wrote:
      >>> Hi Adrian,
      >>>
      >>> Everyone else has given great advice. I ended up using 1/8" thick
      >>> aluminum plates that I "fabricated" myself out of a big sheet. I
      >>> also used a strapping kit similar to Martin's. I bought mine for
      >>> $80 on ebay (5/8" mini polyester strapping kit). Don't get larger
      >>> than 5/8" with the Thundersky cells -- it won't fit in the grooves
      >>> on the side of the cells.
      >>>
      >>> I literally just finished strapping my cells together last week,
      >>> so this is all fresh in my mind. I put together a blog posting
      >>> detailing the steps:
      >>>
      >>> http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2010/12/plug-bug-strapping-thundersky-batteries-together/
      >>>
      >>> In regards to your question, here is what I did: I added 1/8" on
      >>> each side (for a total of 1/4"). However, I found my box was too
      >>> tight when made to that size, and I couldn't easily drop in the
      >>> cells. Instead, I recommend adding another 1/8" on the side. I
      >>> ended up cutting my box and welding it a little wider to get them
      >>> to fit. I just finished a post on my front battery box for my '69
      >>> bug, outlined here:
      >>>
      >>> http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2010/12/plug-bug-front-battery-box-fabrication/
      >>> -- includes what happens when the box is sized to fit :)
      >>>
      >>> I also posted my sketchup files and details in this posting:
      >>>
      >>> http://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2010/12/plug-bug-battery-box-design/
      >>>
      >>> Have fun!
      >>>
      >>> corbin
      >>>



      ------------------------------

      Message: 12
      Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2011 08:51:36 -0800
      From: corbin dunn <corbin@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage wiring next to low voltage wiring
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <62B17FD7-131E-46BF-BF42-30535E23D0C3@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

      Hi Roland,
      Thank you very much for the detailed explanation! I'll look into running my HV cables separate from the other ones.

      --corbin

      On Dec 31, 2010, at 7:46 PM, Roland Wiench wrote:

      > Hello Corbin,
      >
      > When we install industrial wiring with different voltage and phasing range,
      > it is best to group the same voltage wires together in a separate conduit or
      > duct way. Each wire then can have its own voltage rating. Do not place 600
      > voltage rating wire that carries a higher voltage then a lower voltage
      > rating wire as for 12 volt.
      >
      > You can group wires together with different voltages, if all the wires are
      > rated at the highest voltage. I use 600 volt double jacket wire that is
      > design for chassis work. It has a thicker softer insulation than the wire
      > that is design for conduit.
      >
      > If the lower voltage wires are control voltages and communication systems
      > between sensor and instruments, these wires should be shielded or sometimes
      > double shield.
      >
      > I run all my power cables, charging cables, high voltage, low voltage,
      > communication systems and the Link-10 cable all in the same duct way that
      > goes through the center console in the vehicle.
      >
      > The comm wires and Link-10 cables are double shield where there is a
      > floating ground shield around each wire which is bundle together, inner
      > jacket and another ground shield that is only connected to the vehicle
      > chassis ground.
      >
      > I then install each cable and wire circuits in a separate black plastic
      > thinwall flexible conduit made by Thomas and Betts or you can use wire loom
      > you can get at a auto store. Thomas and Betts make black plastic conduit
      > box connectors that will attach to these type of conduit. It makes a
      > professional type of installation where you do not have any bare wiring
      > showing.
      >
      > I also run a counterpoise ground system in my EV. Instead of relying on the
      > sheet metal of a vehicle to carry the grounding circuits, I run a No. 1 AWG
      > 39 strand insulated copper wire in a complete circle around the inside of
      > the vehicle from the negative of the 12 volt battery or 12 volt DC-DC
      > converter and then back again to the negative.
      >
      > Each panel is ground by using a plated through bolt standoff that attaches
      > the wire connector and take off to other equipment. Then I may have
      > separate ground wires going to the negative too. I also ground all
      > electrical enclosures and chassis plates at two points each.
      >
      > In my comm system, I do not have any noise at all on my AM, even though the
      > speaker wires which are also double shield run though the same duct way.
      >
      > Roland
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "corbin dunn" <corbin@...>
      > To: "EVDL Discussion List" <ev@...>
      > Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 6:12 PM
      > Subject: [EVDL] High voltage wiring next to low voltage wiring
      >
      >
      >> Hi All,
      >> This might be a silly question, but I'm new to building my own EV. Is it
      >> bad to have a single high voltage 2/0 wire right next low voltage wiring
      >> for the car? Or, will there be some sort of back EMF noise that will
      >> affect things? Or, is it okay to do this?
      >>
      >> thanks!
      >> corbin
      >>
      >>
      >> _______________________________________________
      >> | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
      >> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
      >> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      >> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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      >>
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
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      ------------------------------

      Message: 13
      Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2011 17:38:48 +0000
      From: barry@...
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage wiring next to low voltage wiring
      To: "EVDL" <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <1837990967-1293903826-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1514696277-@...>

      Content-Type: text/plain

      Corbin,

      I can't add more to the excellent technical explanation by Roland. I can add my experience with HV/LV wiring.

      I have a single 2" PVC conduit running from the engine compartment to the battery pack in the rear. The conduit contains the 144V traction pack wiring as well as several 12V wires. I have not had any problems with this set up (almost 2 years and 8000+ miles).

      The only EMF problem I have had is the static produced on the radio. To get around this I just use bluetooth streaming of internet radio or Pandora from my Blackberry to the radio.

      Barry Oppenheim
      www.justanotherevconversion.blogspot.com
      -----Original Message-----
      From: corbin dunn <corbin@...>
      Sender: ev-bounces@...
      Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2011 08:51:36
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<ev@...>
      Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage wiring next to low voltage wiring

      Hi Roland,
      Thank you very much for the detailed explanation! I'll look into running my HV cables separate from the other ones.

      --corbin

      On Dec 31, 2010, at 7:46 PM, Roland Wiench wrote:

      > Hello Corbin,
      >
      > When we install industrial wiring with different voltage and phasing range,
      > it is best to group the same voltage wires together in a separate conduit or
      > duct way. Each wire then can have its own voltage rating. Do not place 600
      > voltage rating wire that carries a higher voltage then a lower voltage
      > rating wire as for 12 volt.
      >
      > You can group wires together with different voltages, if all the wires are
      > rated at the highest voltage. I use 600 volt double jacket wire that is
      > design for chassis work. It has a thicker softer insulation than the wire
      > that is design for conduit.
      >
      > If the lower voltage wires are control voltages and communication systems
      > between sensor and instruments, these wires should be shielded or sometimes
      > double shield.
      >
      > I run all my power cables, charging cables, high voltage, low voltage,
      > communication systems and the Link-10 cable all in the same duct way that
      > goes through the center console in the vehicle.
      >
      > The comm wires and Link-10 cables are double shield where there is a
      > floating ground shield around each wire which is bundle together, inner
      > jacket and another ground shield that is only connected to the vehicle
      > chassis ground.
      >
      > I then install each cable and wire circuits in a separate black plastic
      > thinwall flexible conduit made by Thomas and Betts or you can use wire loom
      > you can get at a auto store. Thomas and Betts make black plastic conduit
      > box connectors that will attach to these type of conduit. It makes a
      > professional type of installation where you do not have any bare wiring
      > showing.
      >
      > I also run a counterpoise ground system in my EV. Instead of relying on the
      > sheet metal of a vehicle to carry the grounding circuits, I run a No. 1 AWG
      > 39 strand insulated copper wire in a complete circle around the inside of
      > the vehicle from the negative of the 12 volt battery or 12 volt DC-DC
      > converter and then back again to the negative.
      >
      > Each panel is ground by using a plated through bolt standoff that attaches
      > the wire connector and take off to other equipment. Then I may have
      > separate ground wires going to the negative too. I also ground all
      > electrical enclosures and chassis plates at two points each.
      >
      > In my comm system, I do not have any noise at all on my AM, even though the
      > speaker wires which are also double shield run though the same duct way.
      >
      > Roland
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "corbin dunn" <corbin@...>
      > To: "EVDL Discussion List" <ev@...>
      > Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 6:12 PM
      > Subject: [EVDL] High voltage wiring next to low voltage wiring
      >
      >
      >> Hi All,
      >> This might be a silly question, but I'm new to building my own EV. Is it
      >> bad to have a single high voltage 2/0 wire right next low voltage wiring
      >> for the car? Or, will there be some sort of back EMF noise that will
      >> affect things? Or, is it okay to do this?
      >>
      >> thanks!
      >> corbin
      >>
      >>
      >> _______________________________________________
      >> | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
      >> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
      >> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      >> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
      >> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >>
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
      > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
      > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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      _______________________________________________
      | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
      | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
      | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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      ------------------------------

      Message: 14
      Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2011 10:01:10 -0800
      From: corbin dunn <corbin@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] Secondary fuse location in battery pack
      To: EVDL Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <B75A87C2-D9B7-4B75-853A-C1BDF85A59B6@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

      Hi all,

      I want to confirm where I should place my secondary High Voltage fuse for my HV battery pack. The primary fuse is right outside the positive side of the pack. My pack is physically separated into two banks; one in the front, and one in the rear.

      Here's a picture:
      http://corbinstreehouse.com/fuse.png

      The top left bank of cells is the rear pack, which is right by the controller. The bottom right bank of cells is the front pack.

      Should I place the second fuse where it is shown in the diagram, right off the + of the rear pack heading to the front pack (ie: separating the two packs), or right off the plus of the front pack (ie: protecting a short in the HV wire running to the rear of the car).

      I'm unsure which is best. Opinions?

      ---corbin

      I also posted the same question on DIY electric car...but I always like multiple opinions before I commit to something.

      http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/best-fuse-location-battery-pack-53685.html

      I may simply leave the fuse out for now until I know for sure (since the second fuse isn't absolutely necessary, and is backup safety).



      ------------------------------

      Message: 15
      Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2011 11:36:31 -0800
      From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Secondary fuse location in battery pack
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <SNT144-ds103F7A13F22185E554AA10BE050@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      Hello Corbin,

      The maximum run of wire that is un-fuse is 10 feet from the power source
      which is design to carry that load.

      The fuses should be place as close as possible on the positive side of the
      battery pack. Lets say you have the two pos and neg feeder wires coming
      from battery pack, there shall be a fuse before the wires running inside a
      conduit or wireway. If the fuse is place after these two wires are place in
      this type of enclosure, then the fuse will not blow which is place after the
      shorted section between these two wires if the controller and/or main
      contactor is open.

      If the circuit is completely close where the controller and contactor is
      close, then any short between the feeder conductors may blow both fuses.

      Therefore if the fuses are place in the correct position, they will protect
      the conductors when shorted and one fuse will blow. If you have a overload
      in the motor and/or controller, then both fuses may blow.

      It is common practice when we have a overload protection device in a
      circuit. the main fuse or circuit breaker that comes off the main, will have
      a higher interrupting capacity. The second overload device will have a
      lower interrupting capacity. In this way, you can limit the tripping of one
      device instead of having both trip.

      My main fuse has a interrupting rating of 250,000 amps which is a Bussman
      Limitron fuse. The next overload device is rated at 65,000 amps, the next
      is 22,500 amps and the last one in the circuit is rated at 10,000 amps
      interrupting capacity. This circuit design will normally only allow the
      10,000 amp interrupting overload unit to blow first instead of all the
      others down the line.

      Roland






      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "corbin dunn" <corbin@...>
      To: "EVDL Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 10:01 AM
      Subject: [EVDL] Secondary fuse location in battery pack


      > Hi all,
      >
      > I want to confirm where I should place my secondary High Voltage fuse for
      > my HV battery pack. The primary fuse is right outside the positive side of
      > the pack. My pack is physically separated into two banks; one in the
      > front, and one in the rear.
      >
      > Here's a picture:
      > http://corbinstreehouse.com/fuse.png
      >
      > The top left bank of cells is the rear pack, which is right by the
      > controller. The bottom right bank of cells is the front pack.
      >
      > Should I place the second fuse where it is shown in the diagram, right off
      > the + of the rear pack heading to the front pack (ie: separating the two
      > packs), or right off the plus of the front pack (ie: protecting a short in
      > the HV wire running to the rear of the car).
      >
      > I'm unsure which is best. Opinions?
      >
      > ---corbin
      >
      > I also posted the same question on DIY electric car...but I always like
      > multiple opinions before I commit to something.
      >
      > http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/best-fuse-location-battery-pack-53685.html
      >
      > I may simply leave the fuse out for now until I know for sure (since the
      > second fuse isn't absolutely necessary, and is backup safety).
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
      > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
      > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
      > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >



      ------------------------------

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