Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

EV Digest, Vol 41, Issue 30

Expand Messages
  • ev-request@lists.sjsu.edu
    Send EV mailing list submissions to ev@lists.sjsu.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev or,
    Message 1 of 1 , Dec 21, 2010
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Send EV mailing list submissions to
      ev@...

      To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
      http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
      ev-request@...

      You can reach the person managing the list at
      ev-owner@...

      When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
      than "Re: Contents of EV digest..."


      Also, please be careful not to append the entire digest to your reply. Many mail systems do this by default. Trim or delete the digest text from the bottom of your message, and quote only the parts to which you're replying.



      Today's Topics:

      1. Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program. (Lee Hart)
      2. Re: Dirt to Wheels analysis? (Neil Blanchard)
      3. Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      (Childress, Matthew)
      4. Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program. (Dennis Miles)
      5. Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      (EVDL Administrator)
      6. Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program. (AMPhibian)
      7. Converting Bloodmobiles to electric? (Peter C. Thompson)
      8. Re: A fool thinks small (Childress, Matthew)
      9. Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program. (AMPhibian)
      10. Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program. (AMPhibian)
      11. Re: Converting Bloodmobiles to electric? (Lee Hart)
      12. Re: Converting Bloodmobiles to electric? (harry henderson)
      13. Re: Dirt to Wheels analysis? (harry henderson)
      14. Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program. (Lee Hart)
      15. Re: Converting Bloodmobiles to electric? (Robert Siebert)
      16. Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program. (tomw)
      17. Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program. (Lee Hart)
      18. Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program. (AMPhibian)
      19. Re: Converting Bloodmobiles to electric? (EVDL Administrator)
      20. Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program. (Dennis Miles)
      21. Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program. (AMPhibian)
      22. Re: Dirt to Wheels analysis? (AMPhibian)
      23. Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program. (Lee Hart)
      24. Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program. (Lee Hart)
      25. Solar PV was: Dirt to Wheels analysis? (evdl@...)
      26. Re: NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      (evdl@...)
      27. Re: Converting Bloodmobiles to electric? (Cor van de Water)
      28. Re: EV Insurance Survey (bruce parmenter)


      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Message: 1
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 14:29:28 -0600
      From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <4D0FBCA8.10700@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      On 12/20/2010 1:29 PM, AMPhibian wrote:
      > It also has to add expense to building the vehicle. A pack that's bolted
      > into a vehicle with solid connections that might take a half hour to remove
      > for servicing is much easier to build than a pack that can quickly make and
      > break high power connections time and time again.

      Again, let me point out that fork lifts have been using using
      quick-change battery packs for decades. If battery swapping is done
      right, it works.

      The concern I have with Project Better Place is that their business
      model seems to be designed more to attract investors than customers. If
      their design was good and made economic sense, they would already have
      customers. There are already plenty of EV fleets that would use it.

      Improve on the big heavy flooded fork lift pack, and fork lift customers
      would use it. Develop a smaller version, and golf carts would use it.

      Package it right, and auto companies like GM would be using it (they
      *prefer* to have outside suppliers design and build their subsystems for
      them).

      I don't seen them doing anything on engineering or developing products.
      Instead, they seem to spend all their resources schmoozing politician
      and investors, giving speeches, and writing glowing press releases about
      what they are going to do.
      --
      Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
      814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
      Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
      leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



      ------------------------------

      Message: 2
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 14:39:25 -0500
      From: Neil Blanchard <neil.blanchard@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Dirt to Wheels analysis?
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <95B48A69-CF62-4AE6-A7EA-A784F9E475FD@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

      Hi,

      > A coal-fired plant operates a bit like a giant teakettle. You light the
      > fire, and it takes a l-o-n-g t-i-m-e to start boiling water. And once
      > it starts boiling, it takes a l-o-n-g t-i-m-e to cool down if you turn
      > down the fire. You're talking about hours or even days to bring this
      > kind of plant from 0 to full load, or full to 0 load. This type of plant
      > is only suitable for base load generation, where it can run at
      > essentially constant load continuously.

      Ditto for a nuclear power plant -- it is a high tech teakettle.

      > Other types of plants can responds much faster to load changes.
      > Hydroelectric plants have huge valves they can turn, to use more or less
      > water on a minute's notice. Natural gas or diesel fired generators can
      > respond even faster; not quite as fast as the throttle in your car, but
      > almost. So, these are the plants that have to handle the short term changes.
      >
      > The big reactors mentioned are only for handling very short term
      > variations; seconds, or even *within* an AC line cycle for example.

      Gas plants are good peak load plants -- methane from digesters is a really good way to power these with renewable energy.

      Sincerely, Neil
      http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/




      ------------------------------

      Message: 3
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 14:47:43 -0600
      From: "Childress, Matthew" <childrss@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      To: <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <B10E6810AC2A2F4EA7550D072CDE8760077174F7@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

      > I don't think the two are equivalent.

      Analogies are not equivalent: by definition an analogy is a similarity
      between like features of two things: a heart is like a pump, but it is
      not equivalent -- just similar in some functionalities and situations,
      e.g. "I <heart> you" and "I <pump> you" mean two different things ;-)

      This focus on solving long-distance transit with electric vehicles and
      the concentration on it must go 100 miles (X PRIZE alternative class),
      then it must go 200 miles (X PRIZE, mainstream class) and now this
      300-400 miles I have trouble understanding: What problem it is
      attempting to solve??? Whether you drive and promote EVs for
      environmental, national security or some other reasons, 80% of the US
      daily drivers could be driving a 40-60 mile range EV for all of our
      daily trips IF there were ample opportunity charging (a vehicle spends
      most of it's time just sitting there -- so during the day it *should* be
      plugged in and levelizing the grid!)

      Continuing to focus on 300-400 miles per charge to match a sedan's gas
      tank (not all ICE's get 300 Mi/Tank) goes down the utility vehicle path:
      one vehicle to do everything. Which means it doesn't do anything
      particularly well: the battery weight alone to go 300-400 miles per
      charge makes it a horribly inefficient local commuter vehicle (majority
      of trips). To have a battery pack "just sitting around" on a range
      extender trailer also doesn't make much sense unless you've got solar
      dumping into it, but being grid-tied makes a LOT more economic sense,
      rapid charging requires significant investment in infrastructure)...

      Define what your goals are to figure out what problem you're willing to
      spend your time (your most valuable resource, as it's irreplaceable)
      trying to solve: is your goal to drive an EV *everywhere* or is your
      goal to get off foreign oil (national security) and the billion dollars
      A DAY we spend on foreign oil -- if so that's a personal reduction and
      encouraging others to reduce their oil usage by a bit over 2/3rds, or is
      your goal to get off greenhouse gas/smog producing dead dino fuels? If
      so that can be done (not as easily) with vegetable oil and a diesel.
      Pricey (in either time or money)? Yup -- but doable. Or some other
      motivation.

      My goal is a combination both of the above, but my primary goal is to
      have fun and enjoy life ;-) Wasting time making a mess trying to make
      my own biodiesel or filtering WVO is not something that interests me to
      take a leadership position in (I would help). Which means for now I'm
      ok driving an ICE on long distance trips (Prius) and a coal/nuke powered
      EV locally while I lobby and push for free public 120/15A plug-in
      vehicle park&charge stations, an increase in local wind and solar power,
      and an increase in economic trains in the Midwest (we go to Chicago A
      LOT, and the 2.5 hour trip for a family of 4 is *much* cheaper to drive
      it than take the train, even though there are ample vehicles for us to
      drive once we're up at my in-laws). It's not that I'm against high
      speed rail -- I'm against high speed rail that costs more per ticket
      than existing rail. Like charging stations, more/cheap/everywhere is
      better. Speed is relatively unimportant (I'll find something
      constructive to do with my time).

      The 50%/25mi-80%/50mi is an easily obtainable goal for electrics and
      will have a huge impact on the environment, national security AND the
      economy. Plus it's so much damn fun never needing to go to a gas
      station. So yes, given the constraints of what the 80% need daily, EV's
      and ICE aren't equivalent -- the EV's are much more fun!

      Fo' shizzle my nizzle:
      Don't sell the steak.
      Sell the sizzle.

      M@

      -----Original Message-----
      From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
      Behalf Of tomw
      Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 10:48 AM
      To: ev@...
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.


      "It's actually a very good analogy, especially if you work to setup
      charging
      stations in your area where you commute"
      An ICE vehicle with 300-400 mile range is essentially the same as an ev
      with
      full charge and stopping at charging stations? I agree that many people
      could do fine with what you describe, but I don't think the two are
      equivalent.

      Actually I don't think having a standard size and interface battery pack
      would hamper variety of vehicle design that greatly. Several models
      usually
      share the same chassis. I could also see auto manufacturers offering
      swappable packs as an option. Gives them a way to make a bit more money
      and
      satisfy customers who want that option. I am fairly confident if
      swappable
      packs do seriously inhibit product differentiation the manufacturers
      won't
      use it.
      --
      View this message in context:
      http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-o
      n-electric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3095820.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
      Nabble.com.

      _______________________________________________
      | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
      | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
      | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
      | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



      ------------------------------

      Message: 4
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 16:57:47 -0500
      From: Dennis Miles <evti@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <AANLkTinw+H0NOpRgegaKZNvsH_Nh1CvgHTrCzK1zOLuD@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      Lee,
      As always I find myself agreeing with you, BP is seeking other peoples
      money. He is likely paying himself well to promote the "SWAP" concept. He
      has also stated that the "BP" swap is not as likely at home or at work
      instead he only wants to cover highways between cities, where I suggest dump
      quick charging without modification of the EV is just as viable an
      alternative. At this point in time, we are at the "Cusp" of a change in Gas
      versus EV as personal vehicles. Everyone agrees a commuter within 20 miles
      from work to home would benefit from an EV and those who drive hundreds of
      miles each day would probably not benefit as much. I cannot speak for
      everyone, but most people do not commute to work in a 30 ft. long motorhome,
      so why should they expect a commuter vehicle to be driven across the USA
      2,000 miles every summer. If they cannot afford both than which one should
      they own? Ten years I drove a 30 ft. motorhome to work 65 miles daily for a
      week. then I found a job closer to home and put the motorhome into storage
      where it belonged as it is not a reasonable commuter vehicle. Do you base
      your choice of commuter vehicle upon your vacation week? Is that
      "Reasonable?" Or should you base your choice on the trip to work?
      EVs are still waiting for a better Battery. One that is quick to
      charge. One that is not too heavy. One that holds a lot of energy. Is this
      likely in the near future? We have been waiting 120 years ! <{ ;<()
      Is compressed air a better energy storage choice? [ 8^))
      Perhaps I should switch to the Alcohol as a Fuel, List... It's
      working in Brazil ? The Algi to pond scum to Alcohol experiments show
      promise. [ 8^|)
      Regards,
      Dennis Miles
      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:

      > On 12/20/2010 1:29 PM, AMPhibian wrote:
      > > It also has to add expense to building the vehicle. A pack that's bolted
      > > into a vehicle with solid connections that might take a half hour to
      > remove
      > > for servicing is much easier to build than a pack that can quickly make
      > and
      > > break high power connections time and time again.
      >
      > Again, let me point out that fork lifts have been using using
      > quick-change battery packs for decades. If battery swapping is done
      > right, it works.
      >
      > The concern I have with Project Better Place is that their business
      > model seems to be designed more to attract investors than customers. If
      > their design was good and made economic sense, they would already have
      > customers. There are already plenty of EV fleets that would use it.
      >
      > Improve on the big heavy flooded fork lift pack, and fork lift customers
      > would use it. Develop a smaller version, and golf carts would use it.
      >
      > Package it right, and auto companies like GM would be using it (they
      > *prefer* to have outside suppliers design and build their subsystems for
      > them).
      >
      > I don't seen them doing anything on engineering or developing products.
      > Instead, they seem to spend all their resources schmoozing politician
      > and investors, giving speeches, and writing glowing press releases about
      > what they are going to do.
      > --
      > Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
      > 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
      > Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
      > leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
      > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
      > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
      > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >



      --
      Regards,
      *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
      *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
      EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
      *
      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
      It ended because they started using their Brains !
      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      -------------- next part --------------
      An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
      URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101220/7b67e6f9/attachment.html


      ------------------------------

      Message: 5
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 18:02:41 -0500
      From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <4D0F9A41.6800.EDC24A@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

      On 20 Dec 2010 at 16:57, Dennis Miles wrote:

      > I cannot speak for everyone, but most people do not commute to work in
      > a 30 ft. long motorhome, so why should they expect a commuter vehicle
      > to be driven across the USA 2,000 miles every summer. If they cannot
      > afford both than which one should they own?

      Well, most don't have big RVs (caravans for the UK folk). However, many
      Americans, and increasingly those in other nations, do drive vehicles every
      day that in normal circumstances would be called utility vehicles, not
      passenger vehicles.

      Partly this is because they're convinced that they're safer (and that is NOT
      an argument I want to start here, so let's leave it at that). It's also
      because they're keen on practices that really do call for a hauler now and
      again.

      Such folks are convinced that they need big trucks with big ICEs to
      accomplish this, and that they need to have such vehicles with them at all
      times - in case they come across a bargain-priced dining room table at an
      auction, or suddenly feel the desire to haul a half-ton of lumber and
      drywall home from the local big box store.

      There are other ways to accomplish these things, of course. They could
      contract with a hauler or have the store deliver. They could rent a big
      vehicle when they need it, or a family type vehicle for the annual 2000 mile
      summer trip. They could even drive more efficient large vehicles, if such
      vehicles were offered in the US.

      But they don't think of those things. Advertising and media are so powerful
      that, for most peopls, they drown out the alternatives. Ads are based on
      satisfying the status quo in ever more expensive ways. The media are geared
      toward what we already use too, because that's what sells ads.

      I've been a proponent of carsharing or vehicle flexibility plans (which
      evolved from station car schemes) in which you pay a monthly fee and can
      drive what you need when you need it. You might drive a small EV all week,
      and exchange it for a pickup on the weekend when you're giong to the
      lumberyard.

      But I don't see those as ever becoming mainstream. And if vehicle
      flexibility does catch on in modern society, it won't be because "it's the
      right thing to do." It will be because it's a scheme that's making someone
      rich. Same with EVs in general. I'm not suggesting that's wrong. That's
      just the way our system works. We work with what we have.

      Perhaps PBP is one such scheme. Time will tell.

      David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
      EVDL Administrator

      = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
      EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
      = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
      Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
      reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
      email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
      = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =




      ------------------------------

      Message: 6
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 15:20:02 -0800 (PST)
      From: AMPhibian <amp_phibian@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <1292887202275-3107391.post@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


      Sure, it's great with my cordless tools too. I assume most forklift packs
      are relatively low voltage, low current, and much smaller than auto packs
      would be, and they live in a controlled environment doing the same thing all
      the time. They also probably spend more time moving than passenger vehicles
      do so have less opportunity to charge. I'm not saying that auto sized packs
      can't be designed to swap, BP has demonstrated it, I'm just saying that for
      personal transportation I'm not convinced it's worth the added expense to do
      so.


      Lee Hart wrote:
      >
      > On 12/20/2010 1:29 PM, AMPhibian wrote:
      >> It also has to add expense to building the vehicle. A pack that's bolted
      >> into a vehicle with solid connections that might take a half hour to
      >> remove
      >> for servicing is much easier to build than a pack that can quickly make
      >> and
      >> break high power connections time and time again.
      >
      > Again, let me point out that fork lifts have been using using
      > quick-change battery packs for decades. If battery swapping is done
      > right, it works.
      >
      >
      >

      --
      View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-on-electric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3107391.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 7
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 15:23:44 -0800
      From: "Peter C. Thompson" <pthompso@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] Converting Bloodmobiles to electric?
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <4D0FE580.1020202@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed

      Hi Folks,

      Being a regular blood donor, I'm on the usual plea-lists, and the latest
      plea got me thinking. The local blood bank is asking for money to buy
      new Bloodmobiles (converted RVs), as the current ones no longer pass
      smogtests.

      Having done one conversion (a small one tho - Porsche 914), I think it
      would be doable, but wanted to get feedback from the Usual Suspects
      before pushing forward.

      My thoughts - use a simple system of DC motor (Warp11?), Netgain
      controller, lithium batteries, BMS, and manzanita charger. Then put a
      set of warning lights on the dash, and use the "gas gauge" to tell the
      current charge.

      Sounds simple to me, but what am I missing?

      Cheers,
      Peter



      ------------------------------

      Message: 8
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 17:25:49 -0600
      From: "Childress, Matthew" <childrss@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] A fool thinks small
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <B10E6810AC2A2F4EA7550D072CDE87600771754A@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

      I'd agree with Mark's disagreement from college campuses (University of
      Illinois). I've had Frat boys ask:

      "Is that electric? Only one in town?"
      Yup.
      "!@#$!@$! Yeah!"

      Never woulda happened in my college days...

      I'm seeing all sorts of cool electric things -- right now there are
      electric powered "foot type" scooters (think of a heavier weight Razor
      skateboard plus handle bars). Technically illegal on Illinois roads
      (and definitely the way they drive em the wrong way one-way streets)...

      The younger generation(s) are much more tuned in. That being said in
      the same breath that my 16-year-old babysitter was saying she needs more
      work to pay for gas, and I told her that I could help her convert a
      bicycle to an eBike that would cost her a lot less to operate and free
      parking. I got a definite frown and "I'm not riding a BIKE!" as she'd
      just got her driver's license so that was a negative thing.

      So I think the bicycle moniker is problematic to the eBike thing.
      Perhaps moped is a better name for marketing. The "real" bicyclists
      don't want a electric assist, and the kiddos don't want to be seen on a
      bicycle! That's why I like some of those chopper-style e-bikes!

      M@

      -----Original Message-----
      From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
      Behalf Of Mark Grasser
      Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 5:56 PM
      To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] A fool thinks small

      Jee,
      I have to disagree. If you go to any moderate sized city in the Midwest
      you
      will see scooters. Never saw them before but you see them now. My son
      has
      one, uses it all summer long, all his friends ask to borrow it. I think
      it
      is an up and coming item.

      Sincerely,
      Mark Grasser



      -----Original Message-----
      From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
      Behalf
      Of AMPhibian
      Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 6:24 PM
      To: ev@...
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] A fool thinks small


      Scooters are not going to do much in the US. A public concerned with
      range
      and comfort is not going to start hopping on scooters no matter what
      powers
      them. Electric motorcycles could very well catch on but that's a
      different
      animal, and a different buyer.


      brucedp wrote:
      >
      >
      > The challenge would be the U.S. market, which has never had great
      > tolerance for tiny vehicles such as scooters. But I think a cool
      > electric motorcycle would sell in reasonable volumes if a little
      > design work went into them ...
      >
      >

      --
      View this message in context:
      http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/A-fool-thin
      ks-s
      mall-tp3092642p3094098.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
      Nabble.com.

      _______________________________________________
      | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
      | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
      | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
      | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

      _______________________________________________
      | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
      | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
      | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
      | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



      ------------------------------

      Message: 9
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 15:29:20 -0800 (PST)
      From: AMPhibian <amp_phibian@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <1292887760272-3107947.post@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


      Do we need a better battery? We already have batteries that can quick
      charge, we already have batteries that could give us 300 miles in the right
      platform, they just cost too much. I'm sure we'll get better batteries but
      cheaper batteries at today's performance levels would do the job. We also
      need the right vehicle, lightweight and aerodynamic. We already know what
      it looks like, the Solectria Sunrise. At some point a car company might
      realize that instead of a more expensive and larger battery a more efficient
      platform makes more sense.


      Dennis Miles wrote:
      >
      >
      > EVs are still waiting for a better Battery. One that is quick to
      > charge. One that is not too heavy. One that holds a lot of energy.
      > Regards,
      > Dennis Miles
      >
      >
      >

      --
      View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-on-electric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3107947.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 10
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 15:34:29 -0800 (PST)
      From: AMPhibian <amp_phibian@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <1292888069139-3108240.post@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


      Higher fuel prices may change those expectations, but right now there isn't
      much penalty for gross inefficiency.
      You can rent a pickup truck from Uhaul for 20 dollars a day.


      EVDL Administrator wrote:
      >
      >
      > Such folks are convinced that they need big trucks with big ICEs to
      > accomplish this, and that they need to have such vehicles with them at all
      > times - in case they come across a bargain-priced dining room table at an
      > auction, or suddenly feel the desire to haul a half-ton of lumber and
      > drywall home from the local big box store.
      >
      > There are other ways to accomplish these things, of course. They could
      > contract with a hauler or have the store deliver. They could rent a big
      > vehicle when they need it, or a family type vehicle for the annual 2000
      > mile
      > summer trip. They could even drive more efficient large vehicles, if such
      > vehicles were offered in the US.
      >
      > But they don't think of those things. Advertising and media are so
      > powerful
      > that, for most peopls, they drown out the alternatives. Ads are based on
      > satisfying the status quo in ever more expensive ways. The media are
      > geared
      > toward what we already use too, because that's what sells ads.
      >
      >
      >

      --
      View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-on-electric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3108240.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 11
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 18:12:59 -0600
      From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Converting Bloodmobiles to electric?
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <4D0FF10B.5090905@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      On 12/20/2010 5:23 PM, Peter C. Thompson wrote:
      > The local blood bank is asking for money to buy
      > new Bloodmobiles (converted RVs), as the current ones no longer pass
      > smog tests.
      >
      > Having done one conversion (a small one tho - Porsche 914), I think it
      > would be doable, but wanted to get feedback from the Usual Suspects
      > before pushing forward.
      >
      > My thoughts - use a simple system of DC motor (Warp11?), Netgain
      > controller, lithium batteries, BMS, and manzanita charger. Then put a
      > set of warning lights on the dash, and use the "gas gauge" to tell the
      > current charge.

      Step 1 is to find out what size/weight vehicle they need. Judging from
      the ones we have locally, I see see them using huge 10,000+ lbs truck
      and bus-size vehcles.

      Step 2 is to find out what kind of speed and range requirements they
      have. We live in a rural area, so I suspect they want vehicles that can
      cover many several hundred miles in a day but your Blood Bank may be
      different (in an urban area, for example).

      If it is a large, long-range vehicle, then the parts you describe will
      be *way* too small.

      Now there might be some hope for a hybrid setup. Keep the big diesel for
      high speed long range driving. Use the EV motor, batteries, and
      controller for short range urban driving.

      --
      Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
      814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
      Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
      leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



      ------------------------------

      Message: 12
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 16:17:29 -0800 (PST)
      From: harry henderson <hendersonmotorcycles@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Converting Bloodmobiles to electric?
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <891777.8055.qm@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

      its a great idea and a large, positionable, solar array on top all the power during the blood letting could be supplied and if the vehicle sits for a bit most of the charging too.

      plus i bet there is a grant for a hight school or college project

      harry

      Albuquerque, NM
      current bike: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
      current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000


      --- On Mon, 12/20/10, Peter C. Thompson <pthompso@...> wrote:

      > From: Peter C. Thompson <pthompso@...>
      > Subject: [EVDL] Converting Bloodmobiles to electric?
      > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      > Date: Monday, December 20, 2010, 4:23 PM
      > Hi Folks,
      >
      > Being a regular blood donor, I'm on the usual plea-lists,
      > and the latest
      > plea got me thinking.? The local blood bank is asking
      > for money to buy
      > new Bloodmobiles (converted RVs), as the current ones no
      > longer pass
      > smogtests.
      >
      > Having done one conversion (a small one tho - Porsche 914),
      > I think it
      > would be doable, but wanted to get feedback from the Usual
      > Suspects
      > before pushing forward.
      >
      > My thoughts - use a simple system of DC motor (Warp11?),
      > Netgain
      > controller, lithium batteries, BMS, and manzanita charger.
      > Then put a
      > set of warning lights on the dash, and use the "gas gauge"
      > to tell the
      > current charge.
      >
      > Sounds simple to me, but what am I missing?
      >
      > Cheers,
      > ? ???Peter
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > | REPLYING: address your message to ev@...
      > only.
      > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
      > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
      > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >






      ------------------------------

      Message: 13
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 16:22:39 -0800 (PST)
      From: harry henderson <hendersonmotorcycles@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Dirt to Wheels analysis?
      To: dhymers@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion List
      <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <806089.59802.qm@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

      right on, i've only used solar for my 12 volt systems in my EVs for the past four years

      harry

      Albuquerque, NM
      current bike: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
      current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000


      --- On Mon, 12/20/10, Dave Hymers <dhymers@...> wrote:

      > From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
      > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Dirt to Wheels analysis?
      > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      > Date: Monday, December 20, 2010, 10:53 AM
      > On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 7:38 AM,
      > AMPhibian <amp_phibian@...>
      > wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > I wasn't suggesting we should not use home based
      > solar, indeed we should at
      > > every opportunity.? This was more of a
      > theoretical discussion about what on
      > > board solar could accomplish.? Also, as I live in
      > the woods solar is
      > > unfortunately not an option so I would need to go with
      > panels on the
      > > vehicle
      > > to get some charge while at work.? Maybe someday
      > it won't be cost
      > > prohibitive.
      > >
      > >
      > One day we all want PV to offset our household usage,
      > excellent.
      > But, the average household array, to achieve this, occupies
      > between 50-80%
      > of
      > roof space, that's in the order of 500-1200sqft if you'd
      > like me to pull a
      > figure from the darkness ;)
      >
      > I did some math a while back for a truck, figuring I could
      > fit roughly
      > 800-1000watts
      > covering the bed, it would net me between 3-4 miles of
      > range.
      > Not exactly on the good side of the cost benefit analysis.
      >
      > When PV efficiencies increase, when triple junction cells
      > are widespread
      > maybe
      > we'll see much more PV on cars.
      >
      > The one thing PV is VERY good at, and affordable is running
      > every accessory
      > in sight.
      > (Disclaimer: I live in Tucson) You could run AC, perhaps
      > heat, headlights
      > etc..
      > from a deep cycle or two, charged by a 150watt+ panel, it
      > wouldn't break the
      > bank,
      > and would take loads away from the main pack, increasing
      > range and life a
      > bit.
      > And it'd be a great conversation starter. ;)
      > -------------- next part --------------
      > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
      > URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101220/d2c0ef2f/attachment.html
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > | REPLYING: address your message to ev@...
      > only.
      > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
      > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
      > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >






      ------------------------------

      Message: 14
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 18:26:00 -0600
      From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <4D0FF418.5020904@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      On 12/20/2010 5:20 PM, AMPhibian wrote:
      > I assume most forklift packs are relatively low voltage, low current,
      > and much smaller than auto packs would be...

      Most fork lifts weigh as much or more than a car, and have pack that
      weigh from several hundred to a thousand pounds or more. Typical packs
      are 24v to 72v, at 200-1000 amphours.

      The pack is generally housed in a strong steel box, designed to be
      easily inserted or removed (with a fork lift, of course). :-)
      Connections are by large anderson connectors, usually the 175a or 250a
      sizes.

      > they live in a controlled environment doing the same thing all the
      > time.

      Yes; that is a key to success with swap-able packs. You know right where
      the vehicle will be, and exactly when it will come in for a pack.

      > They also probably spend more time moving than passenger vehicles do
      > so have less opportunity to charge.

      Probably true, though there are many patterns of use. Sometimes the fork
      lift sits idle most of the time, and is then heavily used when a truck
      needs to be loaded/unloaded. Other times, an operator is in the seat for
      almost his whole 8-hour shift, moving pallets from one place to another
      in a warehouse.

      > I'm not saying that auto sized packs can't be designed to swap, BP
      > has demonstrated it, I'm just saying that for personal transportation
      > I'm not convinced it's worth the added expense to do so.

      *Has* BP actually done it? So far all I've seen is talk.

      The ideal setup for swapping packs is going to be some kind of fleet or
      delivery operation, where the driver follows a predictable route and
      schedule. They can then plan the pack swaps to be at break time or when
      the vehicle returns to "base" to pick up or deliver the next batch.

      --
      Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
      814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
      Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
      leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



      ------------------------------

      Message: 15
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 16:54:17 -0800
      From: Robert Siebert <eesolar@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Converting Bloodmobiles to electric?
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <8D81E0CA-1DB0-4895-96B8-D3B4C28D5179@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

      Peter:

      For starters, here are a few more questions: How far will they drive in a worst case day? Can they park it near a outdoor but weatherproof shelter for charging? What is the weight of the existing chassis? Is the existing chassis basically sound so that the conversion won't be bugged by rust, suspension, etc? How much money will the RC save?

      /Bob
      On Dec 20, 2010, at 3:23 PM, Peter C. Thompson wrote:

      > Hi Folks,
      >
      > Being a regular blood donor, I'm on the usual plea-lists, and the latest
      > plea got me thinking. The local blood bank is asking for money to buy
      > new Bloodmobiles (converted RVs), as the current ones no longer pass
      > smogtests.
      >
      > Having done one conversion (a small one tho - Porsche 914), I think it
      > would be doable, but wanted to get feedback from the Usual Suspects
      > before pushing forward.
      >
      > My thoughts - use a simple system of DC motor (Warp11?), Netgain
      > controller, lithium batteries, BMS, and manzanita charger. Then put a
      > set of warning lights on the dash, and use the "gas gauge" to tell the
      > current charge.
      >
      > Sounds simple to me, but what am I missing?
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Peter
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
      > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
      > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
      > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev




      ------------------------------

      Message: 16
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 17:08:30 -0800 (PST)
      From: tomw <tomofreno2000@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <1292893710460-3113353.post@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


      "*Has* BP actually done it? So far all I've seen is talk."
      According to this article they have demonstrated it in taxis in Tokyo:
      http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=24676
      Seems like a good application for it.
      --
      View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-on-electric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3113353.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 17
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 19:25:13 -0600
      From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <4D1001F9.7050405@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      > "*Has* BP actually done it? So far all I've seen is talk."

      tomw wrote:
      > According to this article they have demonstrated it in taxis in Tokyo:
      > http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=24676
      > Seems like a good application for it.

      They ran a 90-day test in Tokyo with an unspecified number of taxis
      going about 250 miles a day. Given that a normal taxicab goes about this
      far a day, that sounds like only a few cabs for a few months. Small, but
      it's a start.
      --
      Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
      814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
      Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
      leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



      ------------------------------

      Message: 18
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 18:01:01 -0800 (PST)
      From: AMPhibian <amp_phibian@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <1292896861542-3116226.post@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


      Here's a video of the swap.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHHvjsFm_88
      Obviously for this to work they either have to find an auto maker to design
      at least one production vehicle with swap capability built in, or find a
      company that will convert existing vehicles to swap capability.


      Lee Hart wrote:
      >
      >> "*Has* BP actually done it? So far all I've seen is talk."
      >
      > tomw wrote:
      >> According to this article they have demonstrated it in taxis in Tokyo:
      >> http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=24676
      >> Seems like a good application for it.
      >
      > They ran a 90-day test in Tokyo with an unspecified number of taxis
      > going about 250 miles a day. Given that a normal taxicab goes about this
      > far a day, that sounds like only a few cabs for a few months. Small, but
      > it's a start.
      > --
      > Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
      > 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
      > Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
      > leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
      > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
      > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
      > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >
      >

      --
      View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-on-electric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3116226.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 19
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:20:19 -0500
      From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Converting Bloodmobiles to electric?
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <4D0FC893.4805.14FE697C@...>

      On 20 Dec 2010 at 16:17, harry henderson wrote:

      > a large, positionable, solar array on top all the power during the
      > blood letting could be supplied and if the vehicle sits for a bit most
      > of the charging too.

      If you look at the square area available on a vehicle's roof, the real-world
      output of affordable PV panels when so mounted, and the actual energy needs
      of a large bus and medical equipment - even when standing still - I think
      you'll find that providing sufficient onboard solar power for this
      application is going to be a real challenge. Getting enough energy to push
      the beast down the road any significant distance at any useful speed is
      pretty well out of the question.

      You should also prepare to be surprised, and not pleasantly so, by the
      reaction when you propose this idea to the owners of the bloodmobiles. It's
      pretty likely that flunking the smog tests isn't the only reason they want
      (or need) new vehicles. With most organizations I've known, for-profit or
      nonprofit, once they've decided that equipment needs to be replaced, they
      don't much appreciate someone trying to tell them how they can carry on
      using the old stuff.

      But don't let that stop you; this case might be the exception.

      David Roden
      EVDL Administrator
      http://www.evdl.org/




      ------------------------------

      Message: 20
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:52:07 -0500
      From: Dennis Miles <evti@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <AANLkTin5oTCq_h71iC1_atkT22O=+4sHgWXyrLv37nem@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PmPTpVY6RZM#t=11s
      Above link is a Shai Agassi interview on CBC the hour, in the first minutes
      he states; Renault and Nissan are committed to building nine models with the
      BP battery swap system built in. he further points out that a standard
      "Plug-In" is also included as well the swappable system and swapping is the
      secondary system for trips and if needed , but primary recharging everyday
      is the "Plug-In" technology mostly at home at night and at work and another
      video shows a recharging outlet placed in a parking garage for "Plug-In"
      charging in Israel!
      Regards,
      Dennis Miles
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 9:01 PM, AMPhibian <amp_phibian@...> wrote:

      >
      > Here's a video of the swap.
      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHHvjsFm_88
      > Obviously for this to work they either have to find an auto maker to
      > design
      > at least one production vehicle with swap capability built in, or find a
      > company that will convert existing vehicles to swap capability.
      >
      >
      > Lee Hart wrote:
      > >
      > >> "*Has* BP actually done it? So far all I've seen is talk."
      > >
      > > tomw wrote:
      > >> According to this article they have demonstrated it in taxis in Tokyo:
      > >> http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=24676
      > >> Seems like a good application for it.
      > >
      > > They ran a 90-day test in Tokyo with an unspecified number of taxis
      > > going about 250 miles a day. Given that a normal taxicab goes about this
      > > far a day, that sounds like only a few cabs for a few months. Small, but
      > > it's a start.
      > > --
      > > Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
      > > 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
      > > Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
      > > leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
      > Cohen
      > >
      > > _______________________________________________
      > > | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
      > > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
      > > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      > > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
      > > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      > >
      > >
      >
      > --
      > View this message in context:
      > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-on-electric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3116226.html
      > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
      > Nabble.com.
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
      > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
      > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
      > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >



      --
      Regards,
      *Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
      *www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
      EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
      *
      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
      It ended because they started using their Brains !
      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      -------------- next part --------------
      An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
      URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101220/9e0da599/attachment.html


      ------------------------------

      Message: 21
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 20:13:05 -0800 (PST)
      From: AMPhibian <amp_phibian@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <1292904785550-3122007.post@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


      That's an older video and I'm pretty sure Nissan has backed out of the BP
      system since then. Certainly the LEAF is not built with a swappable pack.

      Dennis Miles wrote:
      >
      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PmPTpVY6RZM#t=11s
      > Above link is a Shai Agassi interview on CBC the hour, in the first
      > minutes
      > he states; Renault and Nissan are committed to building nine models with
      > the
      > BP battery swap system built in.
      >
      >

      --
      View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-story-on-electric-vehicle-charging-program-tp3085669p3122007.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 22
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 20:22:00 -0800 (PST)
      From: AMPhibian <amp_phibian@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Dirt to Wheels analysis?
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <1292905320909-3122475.post@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


      Another question then, if coal can't throttle what happens in areas with over
      90% coal? How do they drop that much capacity at night, and what do they
      use for peak loads, power from surrounding areas? Looking at this
      interactive map and clicking "Sources of Power" and then "Coal" gives a nice
      visual of heavy coal areas, moving the cursor over a state gives the full
      percentage breakdown.
      http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=110997398
      For example North Dakota is 95% coal, 4% hydro, and surrounding states don't
      seem to have any peaker capacity to send to them.


      Neil Blanchard wrote:
      >
      > Hi,
      >
      >> A coal-fired plant operates a bit like a giant teakettle. You light the
      >> fire, and it takes a l-o-n-g t-i-m-e to start boiling water. And once
      >> it starts boiling, it takes a l-o-n-g t-i-m-e to cool down if you turn
      >> down the fire. You're talking about hours or even days to bring this
      >> kind of plant from 0 to full load, or full to 0 load. This type of plant
      >> is only suitable for base load generation, where it can run at
      >> essentially constant load continuously.
      >
      > Ditto for a nuclear power plant -- it is a high tech teakettle.
      >
      >> Other types of plants can responds much faster to load changes.
      >> Hydroelectric plants have huge valves they can turn, to use more or less
      >> water on a minute's notice. Natural gas or diesel fired generators can
      >> respond even faster; not quite as fast as the throttle in your car, but
      >> almost. So, these are the plants that have to handle the short term
      >> changes.
      >>
      >> The big reactors mentioned are only for handling very short term
      >> variations; seconds, or even *within* an AC line cycle for example.
      >
      > Gas plants are good peak load plants -- methane from digesters is a really
      > good way to power these with renewable energy.
      >
      > Sincerely, Neil
      > http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
      >
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
      > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
      > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
      > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >
      >

      --
      View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Dirt-to-Wheels-analysis-tp3076445p3122475.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 23
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 22:29:44 -0600
      From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <4D102D38.4090205@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      On 12/20/2010 8:52 PM, Dennis Miles wrote:
      > ... Shai Agassi interview on CBC... he states Renault and Nissan
      > are committed to building nine models with the BP battery swap
      > system built in...

      I really *hope* this is true. But sadly, over and over again we have
      heard what someone says they are going to do with EVs. We wait, and
      wait... and it never happens.

      I've been waiting for over 30 years for one of these glorious
      pronouncements to actually come true. Now, I simply go by what they have
      actually *done*; not what they say they will do.

      --
      Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
      814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
      Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
      leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



      ------------------------------

      Message: 24
      Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 23:19:46 -0600
      From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <4D1038F2.3040705@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      On 12/20/2010 10:13 PM, AMPhibian wrote:
      > That's an older video and I'm pretty sure Nissan has backed out of the BP
      > system since then. Certainly the LEAF is not built with a swappable pack.

      The building appears to be a temporary tent-like affair, so maybe this
      was a mock-up put together as a demo. The battery pack is very oddly
      shaped, and hard to imagine becoming a standard that would fit more than
      one car. I also wonder what it would look like under the car after the
      car has been driven through mud, snow, etc.

      Here is a video on changing a typical forklift battery (sorry about the
      music):

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9yQeelxKSM&NR=1&feature=fvwp

      And this one shows the state of the art in fork lift battery changing
      and maintenance. It automatically removes the pack, tests it, charges
      it, adds water, and even washes it, logging all data on usage and condition.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9YJtNDd8c0
      --
      Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
      814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
      Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
      leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen



      ------------------------------

      Message: 25
      Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 01:28:08 -0700
      From: evdl@...
      Subject: [EVDL] Solar PV was: Dirt to Wheels analysis?
      To: dhymers@..., "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
      <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <fc59248ace1161197e65873ec04da4f5.squirrel@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

      > One day we all want PV to offset our household usage, excellent.
      > But, the average household array, to achieve this, occupies between 50-80%
      > of
      > roof space, that's in the order of 500-1200sqft if you'd like me to pull a
      > figure from the darkness ;)

      It's not quite that bad. I have a 3.4kw array that provides all the power
      we need and then some. It's only about 250 sq ft.
      Mine is on trackers so it performs a bit better than a fixed roof mount
      array, but a roof mounted one would only need to be 20-30% larger to
      produce the same output.
      FWIW my array is averaging about 20kwh a day last month and about 30 kwh a
      day back in June.

      > I did some math a while back for a truck, figuring I could fit roughly
      > 800-1000watts
      > covering the bed, it would net me between 3-4 miles of range.
      > Not exactly on the good side of the cost benefit analysis.

      Yeah there are only a couple ways that a vehicle mounted array would work.
      Either you build a light weight, high efficiency EV that is covered in
      cells like a solar racer; or you have a vehicle that spends most of the
      week sitting in the sun and you only drive it on weekends.

      It occurs to me that something like the first idea isn't that far fetched.
      A small three wheeled enclosed vehicle (like a Corbin sparrow, but
      smaller) that has perhaps a 1 meter^2 array and a pedal generator.

      If you could get the energy requirements down to about 30-40 wh per mile
      (at 30-35 mph) this could have a range of perhaps 15-20 miles on solar
      power with pedal power extending that another couple miles.
      Might be enough for someone with a short commute.




      ------------------------------

      Message: 26
      Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 01:40:10 -0700
      From: evdl@...
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] NPR story on electric vehicle charging program.
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <0e19df511f2447d2ba3361a3467acfc6.squirrel@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

      > Continuing to focus on 300-400 miles per charge to match a sedan's gas
      > tank (not all ICE's get 300 Mi/Tank) goes down the utility vehicle path:
      > one vehicle to do everything. Which means it doesn't do anything
      > particularly well: the battery weight alone to go 300-400 miles per
      > charge makes it a horribly inefficient local commuter vehicle (majority
      > of trips). To have a battery pack "just sitting around" on a range
      > extender trailer also doesn't make much sense unless you've got solar
      > dumping into it, but being grid-tied makes a LOT more economic sense,
      > rapid charging requires significant investment in infrastructure)...

      This brings up another potential advantage to the modularized pack I
      mentioned previously.
      For normal around town driving you only load up a few modules. If you
      need to make a longer trip, you stop at a service station and add some
      more.

      Though for really long trips, it would make more sense if we could get the
      rail system involved. Trains as just about the most efficient way to move
      large objects over distance.
      Perhaps one day we will have trains where you can just drive your EV into
      a container (sort of like a ferry), hook it up to charge, and then go sit
      in the club car while the miles go by. When you get to your destination
      you drive the car off the train with a fully charged pack.

      Ok it's a bit of a pipe dream, but it's doable.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 27
      Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 14:51:12 +0530
      From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Converting Bloodmobiles to electric?
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <1E3D081C7B502B4A988F643E604CF9630126D44B@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

      Two things are slightly at odds here:
      effectiveness and efficiency.
      Many operations do not care much about efficiency
      as long as they are effective. This is particularly
      true of (for example) military. You want them to be
      effective, but there are other examples such as
      airbags and (fighterplane) ejection seats that must
      be effective and you don't care how efficient they
      are for the few cases you actually get to use them.

      I think it is also true for the bloodbank, they need
      to cover quite some ground each day, they have very
      strict requirements about cooling and hygiene so the
      power requirements even for sitting in a parking lot
      are so large that I have seen they do not even try to
      plug into the building power when they litterally
      sit in front of an outlet, because that outlet is not
      guaranteed to provide continuous power (effectiveness)
      nor will it supply enough to run all equipment including
      the AirCo of the bus sitting in the full Californian sun
      on a blacktop desert...

      Since the Bloodmobile has a fixed schedule and cannot
      wait a few more hours to gather enough energy for the
      next trip, this limitation will quickly tarnish a
      solar-powered one, if you even can make it suck enough
      solar power to move it...

      Now it may be possible to design a Bloodmobile to run
      from a solar array and that is a very interesting
      challenge (and since I love solar, I would like to
      see it done) but it is a different beast than the
      conversion.

      Typical EVs are somewhat efficient because they can
      operate within specific boundaries, for example all
      around-town errands or a fixed commute each day.
      Running a Bloodmobile is a different beast, you
      would need to gather data on the mileage that the
      RV has and the steady state power draw when it is
      operating as blood bank.
      Then see if you can get close to that power requirement
      with a solar array and see how that array can be
      transported. Then consider what they should do on
      days that the sun does not shine - probably keep their
      genset anyway?

      Success,

      Cor van de Water
      Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
      Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
      Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
      Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@...
      Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
      Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

      -----Original Message-----
      From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
      Behalf Of Peter C. Thompson
      Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 4:54 AM
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
      Subject: [EVDL] Converting Bloodmobiles to electric?

      Hi Folks,

      Being a regular blood donor, I'm on the usual plea-lists, and the latest
      plea got me thinking. The local blood bank is asking for money to buy
      new Bloodmobiles (converted RVs), as the current ones no longer pass
      smogtests.

      Having done one conversion (a small one tho - Porsche 914), I think it
      would be doable, but wanted to get feedback from the Usual Suspects
      before pushing forward.

      My thoughts - use a simple system of DC motor (Warp11?), Netgain
      controller, lithium batteries, BMS, and manzanita charger. Then put a
      set of warning lights on the dash, and use the "gas gauge" to tell the
      current charge.

      Sounds simple to me, but what am I missing?

      Cheers,
      Peter

      _______________________________________________
      | REPLYING: address your message to ev@... only.
      | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
      | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
      | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
      | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



      ------------------------------

      Message: 28
      Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 17:46:35 +0800
      From: "bruce parmenter" <brucedp@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Insurance Survey
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID:
      <20101221094635.9D97115F069@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      *** DO NOT reply or post with what Insurance company you use ***
      (it won't be used and it wastes evdl bandwidth)

      [Update & Follow-up]

      I am still working on asking the various specific EV
      forums/groups/lists to use an applicable Survey, currently the
      'Production 2010 and After EV Survey' has only four entries: Two
      Leaf EVs and two Tesla Roadster EVs. That amount is not a good
      count to make a final analysis. However, I thought it would be
      interesting to list the preliminary trends of what Insurance
      companies this survey chose (also I am hoping as more people take
      possession of their new Production EVs they will participate in the
      'Production 2010 and After EV Survey':
      http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/XGMWM82 ).

      The Insurance companies they chose are equally split among four
      Insurance companies (Companies listed alphabetically):

      farmers.com 25.0% Leaf

      geico.com 25.0% Tesla Roadster

      statefarm.com 25.0% Leaf

      usaa.com 25.0% Tesla Roadster


      Whereas the 'Production pre-2010 EVs Survey' has a much higher number
      of entries. Though 60% completion is still not a good count to make
      final analysis, I thought it would be interesting to give the
      preliminary trends of what Insurance companies this survey show since
      Insurance companies are likely to be accepting of Production EVs
      either new or old. Here is a list of their larger percentages
      (Companies listed alphabetically - x# quantity):

      aaa.com 9.1% RAV4 EV x4, USE S-10, Force

      allstate.com 12.1% Sparrow x3, NMG, Force x2, USE Prizm

      geico.com 3.0% Sparrow, Solectria Geo Metro

      farmers.com 7.6% RAV4 EV, Ranger EV, Force x4

      progressive.com 4.5% RAV4 EV, Ranger EV, NMG

      safeco.com 3.0% RAV4 EV, TEVan

      statefarm.com 27.3% RAV4 EV x4, Ranger EV x2, Sparrow x8, Force x3

      usaa.com 10.6% RAV4 EV, Ranger EV, Force, Sparrow x3, NMG, Chevy S-10E


      The 'Conversion EV Survey': http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/MSCHXGP
      is also not complete to do a final analysis. Interestingly this
      survey shows a different preliminary trend. Here is a list of
      their larger percentages
      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.