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EV Digest, Vol 23, Issue 53

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      Today's Topics:

      1. 72V charger (electrabishi@...)
      2. Re: 72V charger (electrabishi@...)
      3. SEVA at Greenwood 2009 Photos? (lektwik)
      4. Re: Kelly Controller owners (Joel Sell)
      5. DIY inexpensive high powered charger (damon henry)
      6. Re: wiring speed sensor (Philip Rash)
      7. Re: 72V charger (Larry Cronk)
      8. High Voltage Arcs (Simon Burns)
      9. Re: High Voltage Arcs (David Nelson)
      10. Re: High Voltage Arcs (Zeke Yewdall)
      11. Re: DIY inexpensive high powered charger (Jack Murray)
      12. Re: High Voltage Arcs (Dave Hymers)
      13. Re: High Voltage Arcs (Gene Stopp)
      14. Re: 72V charger (electrabishi@...)
      15. Re: Kelly Controller owners (Bill Dube)
      16. Personal "Plasma Event" (was: High Voltage Arcs) (Bill Dube)
      17. Re: Japan Expects Automotive Li-ion Battery Costs to Halve in
      1 Year (Larry Gales)
      18. Re: Personal "Plasma Event" (was: High Voltage Arcs)
      (electrabishi@...)
      19. Re: Kelly Controller Owners (I DO have a contactor) (Joel Sell)
      20. Re: Kelly Controller Owners (I DO have a contactor)
      (lcalarea47 @...)
      21. Zilla Z1K LV manual? (Seth Rothenberg)
      22. Re: Kelly Controller Owners (I DO have a contactor) (Thor Johnson)
      23. Re: Kelly Controller Owners (I DO have a contactor)
      (Roger Stockton)
      24. Re: Zilla Z1K LV manual? (Barry Oppenheim)
      25. Re: Zilla Z1K LV manual? (Seth Rothenberg)
      26. charging stations (gary)
      27. Re: Personal "Plasma Event" (gary)
      28. Progress on Honda (James Massey)
      29. Re: Personal "Plasma Event" (Mike Willmon)
      30. Re: Personal "Plasma Event" (David Nelson)
      31. Re: Progress on Honda (Mike Willmon)
      32. Re: Personal "Plasma Event" (Mike Willmon)
      33. Re: Personal "Plasma Event" (David Nelson)
      34. Re: Personal "Plasma Event" (Bill Dube)


      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Message: 1
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:04:48 -0800 (AKDT)
      From: electrabishi@...
      Subject: [EVDL] 72V charger
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID:
      <5757544.1788.1246388688223.JavaMail.electrabishi@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=no

      Does anyone have a Shumacher SE-1072 72V charger they would sell?
      Or another 72V charger that will do at least 10 amps?

      My budget is in the $200 range

      Mike



      ------------------------------

      Message: 2
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:18:38 -0800 (AKDT)
      From: electrabishi@...
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 72V charger
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <22158055.2307.1246389518478.JavaMail.electrabishi@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=no

      Thanks for reading, I found one.
      No need to reply.

      Thanks


      On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 11:04 AM , electrabishi@... wrote:

      > Does anyone have a Shumacher SE-1072 72V charger they would sell?
      > Or another 72V charger that will do at least 10 amps?
      >
      > My budget is in the $200 range
      >
      > Mike
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



      ------------------------------

      Message: 3
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:32:30 -0700
      From: lektwik <lektwik@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] SEVA at Greenwood 2009 Photos?
      To: EVDL <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <e8fd35280906301232u6fc95ba1r7bf41ca533e2b099@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      45 photos-
      http://picasaweb.google.com/lektwik/Greenwood2009#

      Enjoy!
      Roy



      ------------------------------

      Message: 4
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:58:00 -0700 (PDT)
      From: Joel Sell <justthesells@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kelly Controller owners
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>,
      frodus17@...
      Message-ID: <789238.38002.qm@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

      Yup. Wired through the ignition switch so it connects when the key is in the "on" position and disconnects when the key isn't.
      Joel

      --- On Tue, 6/30/09, frodus17@... <frodus17@...> wrote:


      From: frodus17@... <frodus17@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kelly Controller owners
      To: "Joel Sell" <justthesells@...>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 11:48 AM


      Do you have a contactor installed in your system? Its pretty much a mandatory safety item...

      EV200's sell on ebay for less than $80.

      On Jun 29, 2009 6:24pm, Joel Sell <justthesells@...> wrote:
      > A while ago I had my Kelly Controller mysterously shut off on me and refuse to turn back on. All was fine while I drove my EV. I parked it, charged it overnight and the next morning it was dead. Nothing. Good charge on my batteries, but the controller just wouldn't turn on.
      >
      >
      > In my searching for answers, I heard of someone who's heard of Kelly controllers shutting down if you charge your pack without disconnecting it from the controller via the emergency disconnect switch. Anyone know anything about this?
      >
      >
      > Joel in Philly
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      >
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      >
      >
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      >
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      Message: 5
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:05:36 +0000
      From: damon henry <damonhenry@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] DIY inexpensive high powered charger
      To: EV List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <SNT104-W441C02F3C379AD2C3E1FA1CE310@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"


      I just noticed Surplus Center has a bunch of these large capacitors. I believe a few of these along with some proper wires, switches and a beefy rectifier is all you need for an "Ugly Box" charger. If you are interested in giving it a try, someone else will have to supply the details. I've never built one myself, although I have used one. My recollection is that you switch the capacitors in and out on the A/C side to set the current level and rectify the output to charge off. It provides a more or less constant current source, which is great for a quick fill, but will happily cook your batteries if you do not shut it off. I know you can squeeze alot of amps out of a socket with one of these, so they can be quite useful.

      http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=22-1307

      damon

      _________________________________________________________________
      Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits.
      http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009
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      ------------------------------

      Message: 6
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:10:22 -0400
      From: Philip Rash <philiprash@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] wiring speed sensor
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <ffad39b70906301410n5135082clb3c97e9450fd3419@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      thanks again for the help, folks! the 1k resistor did the trick...

      Philip


      On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...> wrote:

      > >
      > > Hello Philip,
      > >
      > > Some tack's take 1 pulse, 2 pulse and 4 pulse single per revolution. My
      > > Stewart Warner tack takes 4 pulses to read correctly if I set it for a 6
      > > cylinder engine mode.
      > >
      > > A four pulse sensor has four magnets space every 90 degrees. The sensor
      > can
      > > be a simple reed switch or a hall effects senor. For every revolution of
      > > the motor shaft, it sends four pulses to a four pulse tack which counts
      > it
      > > as one turn.
      > >
      > > Then there is motor counters that read one pulse per turn in the count
      > mode,
      > > or can be switch to read RPM.
      > >
      > > The black is signal ground (12- VDC)
      > >
      > Roland means 0 VDC of course. I know Roland understands that 12+ and 12-
      > are the two wires for 12Vdc one we call positive and the other we call
      > ground or negative, but there are some newbies that might miss interpret
      > that as +12 and -12 !
      > > The green is motor speed
      > > The red is (12+ VDC)
      > >
      > > Use a double shield 3 wire cable which each wire is foil wrap, a jacket
      > over
      > > these three wires and then another shield over that jacket and then cover
      > > with a other jacket. You can normally get these type of cables from a
      > > electronic supply house.
      > >
      > > Do not ground the inner wire shields which you just let floating. Ground
      > > the jacket shield at the motor end to the motor speed mounting bracket
      > > (which is use on some motors) or ground to a bolt to one of the tapped
      > holes
      > > on the face of the motor.
      > >
      > > Connect a larger 12- VDC ground wire to this same bolt connection on the
      > > motor that the shields is connected to. Make this motor ground wire
      > large
      > > enough so it shunts away the magnetic static that comes off the motor.
      > If
      > > this is not done and the motor and transmission is setting on rubber
      > mounts,
      > > than this sensor and shield will try to carry all this static in the
      > sensor
      > > wires.
      > >
      > > Ground the jacket shield at the tack end to the metal housing of the tack
      > > which should also have a bonding jumper to 12 -VDC.
      > >
      > > Roland
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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      ------------------------------

      Message: 7
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 14:23:46 -0700 (PDT)
      From: Larry Cronk <larrycronk@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 72V charger
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <184540.6897.qm@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      ?
      ?
      ?
      ?
      ?
      I have a 96 volt lester chargerthat has a bad resistor and needs to be checked by an expertthis could beconverted to 72 volts i believe.I live in the san fernando valley calabasas calif.you can call me at 8186369641 if you are interested.I will give it to anyone that can use it.?????????? Sincerely larry Cronk 72 DATSUNTK

      --- On Tue, 6/30/09, electrabishi@... <electrabishi@...> wrote:


      From: electrabishi@... <electrabishi@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] 72V charger
      To: ev@...
      Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 12:04 PM


      Does anyone have a Shumacher SE-1072 72V charger they would sell?
      Or another 72V charger that will do at least 10 amps?

      My budget is in the $200 range

      Mike

      _______________________________________________
      General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev





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      ------------------------------

      Message: 8
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:31:34 -0500
      From: Simon Burns <sburns77@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] High Voltage Arcs
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <5E117341-16D2-48C9-9960-81C2D8AAA58B@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

      I am currently reading up on high voltage electrical systems for my ev.
      I came across talk about the risk of arcing your electrical components.
      What does this mean?
      Any help would be greatly appreciated.
      Thanks!



      ------------------------------

      Message: 9
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 14:53:41 -0700
      From: David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] High Voltage Arcs
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <c5b2f1dc0906301453p608b99d9y1b79044f5f441b3f@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      Think lightning on a small scale which can/will burn/melt metal and
      other things. If you have a corded drill your can see what they are
      talking about if you look through the vent holes at the end of the
      drill while it is running. With AC current like in your home it
      switches direction at a rate of 60 times per second. This means that
      it is at zero volts 120 times per second. Because of this switches and
      things rated for AC do not have to have as wide of a gap nor have to
      be as robust as a DC switch. When the voltage goes through zero volts
      the arc stops, on direct current, however, the gap has to get big
      enough so the arc will quit. When an arc forms it ionizes the air
      around it making the air conduct electricity more easily so the arc
      has an easier time continuing.

      I'm sure others will add more to this basic explanation.

      HTH,

      David

      On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:31 PM, Simon Burns<sburns77@...> wrote:
      > I am currently reading up on high voltage electrical systems for my ev.
      > I came across talk about the risk of arcing your electrical components.
      > What does this mean?
      > Any help would be greatly appreciated.
      > Thanks!
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >
      >



      --
      David D. Nelson
      http://evalbum.com/1328



      ------------------------------

      Message: 10
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:04:39 -0600
      From: Zeke Yewdall <zyewdall@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] High Voltage Arcs
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <f446b2df0906301504l5b204676q71b5b0c0ff4e4beb@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      Imagine a green ball of plasma (what the surface of the sun is made of) a
      few inches in diameter (green if you use copper wire, kind of purply white
      if it's going off of steel). If you have a current limited source like a PV
      array, it's kind of fun to short it out and get a 300 or 500 volt, 10A arc
      -- that'll make a ball about 3 inches wide before it extiguishes. Batteries
      are not current limited.... so are a bit more dangerous if unfused. I've
      once had a big bronze battery termnal vanish in a white flash and a ball of
      smoke -- and I swore I'd never do that again. Don't ever put yourself in
      the position where you could short out a high voltage battery bank (proper
      design, nonconductive tools, etc), and use properly rated components (DC
      rated, not AC rated) so the components themselves don't arc.

      On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:53 PM, David Nelson <gizmoev@...> wrote:

      > Think lightning on a small scale which can/will burn/melt metal and
      > other things. If you have a corded drill your can see what they are
      > talking about if you look through the vent holes at the end of the
      > drill while it is running. With AC current like in your home it
      > switches direction at a rate of 60 times per second. This means that
      > it is at zero volts 120 times per second. Because of this switches and
      > things rated for AC do not have to have as wide of a gap nor have to
      > be as robust as a DC switch. When the voltage goes through zero volts
      > the arc stops, on direct current, however, the gap has to get big
      > enough so the arc will quit. When an arc forms it ionizes the air
      > around it making the air conduct electricity more easily so the arc
      > has an easier time continuing.
      >
      > I'm sure others will add more to this basic explanation.
      >
      > HTH,
      >
      > David
      >
      > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:31 PM, Simon Burns<sburns77@...> wrote:
      > > I am currently reading up on high voltage electrical systems for my ev.
      > > I came across talk about the risk of arcing your electrical components.
      > > What does this mean?
      > > Any help would be greatly appreciated.
      > > Thanks!
      > >
      > > _______________________________________________
      > > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      > > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      > > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > David D. Nelson
      > http://evalbum.com/1328
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >
      >
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      ------------------------------

      Message: 11
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:08:02 -0700 (PDT)
      From: Jack Murray <jack@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] DIY inexpensive high powered charger
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <939175.37530.qm@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8


      I built a charger by simply connecting 14 12v 8amp power supplies in series to get 144v-8amps output. I did blow up a few of them during testing, but they were like $5 each surplus, no big deal.
      Used a micro to monitor and control it.

      --- On Tue, 6/30/09, damon henry <damonhenry@...> wrote:

      > From: damon henry <damonhenry@...>
      > Subject: [EVDL] DIY inexpensive high powered charger
      > To: "EV List" <ev@...>
      > Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 2:05 PM
      >
      > I just noticed Surplus Center has a bunch of these large
      > capacitors.? I believe a few of these along with some
      > proper wires, switches and a beefy rectifier is all you need
      > for an "Ugly Box" charger.? If you are interested in
      > giving it a try, someone else will have to supply the
      > details.? I've never built one myself, although I have
      > used one.? My recollection is that you switch the
      > capacitors in and out on the A/C side to set the current
      > level and rectify the output to charge off.? It
      > provides a more or less constant current source, which is
      > great for a quick fill, but will happily cook your batteries
      > if you do not shut it off.? I know you can squeeze alot
      > of amps out of a socket with one of these, so they can be
      > quite useful.
      >
      > http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=22-1307
      >
      > damon
      >
      > _________________________________________________________________
      > Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about
      > storage limits.
      > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009
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      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >
      >



      ------------------------------

      Message: 12
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:09:53 -0700
      From: Dave Hymers <dhymers@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] High Voltage Arcs
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <ec811c3f0906301509o75124fdfjac76681a2dd1316a@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      www.plasmaboyracing.com

      somewhere there is the story of how John Wayland got his name. Somebody had
      to refer to that sooner or later ;)
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      ------------------------------

      Message: 13
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:42:09 -0700
      From: Gene Stopp <gene@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] High Voltage Arcs
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <0E811B60FEDF794BAC6BD6A2BB896AC90D8CEC2129@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

      http://www.evdl.org/pages/plasmaboy.html


      www.plasmaboyracing.com

      somewhere there is the story of how John Wayland got his name. Somebody had
      to refer to that sooner or later ;)
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      _______________________________________________
      General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev




      ------------------------------

      Message: 14
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:52:28 -0800 (AKDT)
      From: electrabishi@...
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 72V charger
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <9178849.7915.1246398748108.JavaMail.electrabishi@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=no

      Thanks Larry. I found one of the Shumachers in stock somewhere (that
      didn't want $300 for it).

      How much does that unit weight that you have. If it wouldn't cost me
      too much to ship I may pay to ship it up from you.

      Mike


      On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 1:23 PM , Larry Cronk wrote:

      > ?
      > ?
      > ?
      > ?
      > ?
      > I have a 96 volt lester chargerthat has a bad resistor and needs to be
      > checked by an expertthis could beconverted to 72 volts i believe.I
      > live in the san fernando valley calabasas calif.you can call me at
      > 8186369641 if you are interested.I will give it to anyone that can use
      > it.?????????? Sincerely larry Cronk 72 DATSUNTK
      >
      > --- On Tue, 6/30/09, electrabishi@... <electrabishi@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: electrabishi@... <electrabishi@...>
      > Subject: [EVDL] 72V charger
      > To: ev@...
      > Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 12:04 PM
      >
      >
      > Does anyone have a Shumacher SE-1072 72V charger they would sell?
      > Or another 72V charger that will do at least 10 amps?
      >
      > My budget is in the $200 range
      >
      > Mike
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      ------------------------------

      Message: 15
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:59:01 -0600
      From: Bill Dube <billdube@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kelly Controller owners
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <20090630225903.B1DD9194E6F@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

      So you have to leave the key "on" to charge?

      Most folks connect the charger directly to the pack through a
      smallish fuse (like 30 or 40 amps) and a separate Anderson connector.

      Bill Dube'

      At 02:58 PM 6/30/2009, you wrote:
      >Yup. Wired through the ignition switch so it connects when the key
      >is in the "on" position and disconnects when the key isn't.
      >Joel
      >
      >--- On Tue, 6/30/09, frodus17@... <frodus17@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >From: frodus17@... <frodus17@...>
      >Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kelly Controller owners
      >To: "Joel Sell" <justthesells@...>, "Electric Vehicle
      >Discussion List" <ev@...>
      >Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 11:48 AM
      >
      >
      >Do you have a contactor installed in your system? Its pretty much a
      >mandatory safety item...
      >
      >EV200's sell on ebay for less than $80.
      >
      >On Jun 29, 2009 6:24pm, Joel Sell <justthesells@...> wrote:
      > > A while ago I had my Kelly Controller mysterously shut off on me
      > and refuse to turn back on. All was fine while I drove my EV. I
      > parked it, charged it overnight and the next morning it was dead.
      > Nothing. Good charge on my batteries, but the controller just
      > wouldn't turn on.
      > >
      > >
      > > In my searching for answers, I heard of someone who's heard of
      > Kelly controllers shutting down if you charge your pack without
      > disconnecting it from the controller via the emergency disconnect
      > switch. Anyone know anything about this?
      > >
      > >
      > > Joel in Philly
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > -------------- next part --------------
      > >
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      > >
      > > _______________________________________________
      > >
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      ------------------------------

      Message: 16
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:27:27 -0600
      From: Bill Dube <billdube@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] Personal "Plasma Event" (was: High Voltage Arcs)
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <20090630232743.2C746EE3DD@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

      No matter what you read or how thoroughly you are instructed, it
      seems like no one _really_ gets the proper respect for battery safety
      until they personally experience a "plasma event".

      I have lectured and instructed newbees about the safety precautions
      told them repeatedly that "1000's of amps will flow" if you are not
      very careful. They will still be careless with tools, nuts, bolts,
      soldering irons, etc. no matter how many times I pull them aside and
      say, "If this had touched that, 1000's of amps would have flowed with
      a blinding flash. You need to really be careful and deliberate when
      working with batteries."

      Then, they will finally do something stupid, like measure
      the length of a high-power cell with metal calipers, or carelessly
      touch "this" to "that", or drop a bus bar into just the wrong spot.
      After their vision clears and they can hear once again, they will
      universally say, "Oh my god! I had no idea that would happen!" They
      finally get "religion" about safety procedures around batteries after
      that. It seems to require an object lesson to fully appreciate the
      true meaning of "1000's of amps will flow."

      1) _Always_ wear those blue nitrile mechanic's gloves when working on
      the battery pack or the high-current wiring of your EV.

      2) Check for ground faults first, before you do _anything_ else.

      3) Don't just "dive in" and go to work. Instead, carefully think
      through every move you make before you pick up a tool or touch
      anything. Be _very_ deliberate. Think about the "other" end of the
      wire or the tool. Where could that bus bar drop? Where are you going
      to put that bolt when you remove it? Where are you going to put that
      tool down while you are hand-loosening that nut?

      4) Take a few extra moments to tape up the metal surfaces of the
      tool. Then cover surrounding exposed parts with a heavy cloth, rubber
      matt, blue painter's tape, insulating board, etc.

      Of course, you will ignore all these precautions until you actually
      personally witness "1000's of amps flowing." :-)

      Bill Dube'


      At 03:31 PM 6/30/2009, you wrote:
      >I am currently reading up on high voltage electrical systems for my ev.
      >I came across talk about the risk of arcing your electrical components.
      >What does this mean?
      >Any help would be greatly appreciated.
      >Thanks!
      >
      >_______________________________________________
      >General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      >Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      >Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      >Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



      ------------------------------

      Message: 17
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:40:38 -0700
      From: Larry Gales <larry.gales@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Japan Expects Automotive Li-ion Battery Costs to
      Halve in 1 Year
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <dcd0efa70906301640v42a00f5an5a35aa26535c6b63@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      I realize I may be kicking a dead horse here, but the sodium nickel chloride
      (ZEBRA) battery and is iron chloride cousin have energy densities of 120
      WH/KG and 110 WH/KG, respectively; rival Lithium in energy density,
      safety, and long life; have superior all weather operation; would cost
      around $120/KWH and $100/KWH, respectively in mass production; and the
      iron chloride version has unlimited resources and is much more
      politically and environmentally friendly than any other battery.

      Its limitations, such as lower power density, the desirability of being
      plugged in at least once per week, and thermal leakage (typically ~
      $4-5/month in energy costs under normal use and a temperate climate),
      would seem to be less important than the far more expensive and resource
      limited Lithium batteries.


      -- Larry

      On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 9:31 AM, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:

      > Rob Trahms wrote:
      > > My main takeaways from this article are:
      > > 1) Lithium is projected to be the dominant automotive battery chemistry
      > > until 2030.
      > > 2) There is a significant industry ramp-up in efforts to both increase
      > > energy density and decrease cost.
      > > 3) The acceleration of this effort is going to help prices come down
      > sooner
      > > rather than later or never.
      >
      > My "take" on it:
      >
      > 1. These numbers are being bandied about by analysts. They have a
      > track record about as good as weather forecasters and stock brokers,
      > i.e. being right even half the time is considered a success.
      >
      > 2. Given the Cobasys nimh patent situation, lithium looks like the
      > only viable short-term option for building large battery packs
      > that outperform lead acid.
      >
      > 3. But, research and development has a funny habit of discovering new
      > things. Predictions move than just a few years ahead are likely to
      > be wildly inaccurate, because they can't take new discoveries into
      > account.
      >
      > 4. Finally, if EVs are to be produced in any significant numbers any
      > time soon, they can't depend on exotic battery technologies. The
      > production capacity isn't there, and the testing hasn't been done
      > to insure a low enough risk to satisfy the auto company lawyers
      > and bean counters. They will have to go with a battery that already
      > exists.
      > --
      > Ring the bells that still can ring
      > Forget the perfect offering
      > There is a crack in everything
      > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
      > --
      > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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      >
      >
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      ------------------------------

      Message: 18
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:43:26 -0800 (AKDT)
      From: electrabishi@...
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Personal "Plasma Event" (was: High Voltage Arcs)
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <28670263.10638.1246405406396.JavaMail.electrabishi@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=no

      Bill, I kinda like the orange glow a copper buss bar gets and that
      little whine you start hearing from the battery when its trying to tell
      you "I can't hold it together any longer capn' ". This just before the
      buss bar burns through and all that is left is a bloated battery covered
      with copper slag that has melted down into the battery case.

      No, a newbie would know nothing of the sort unless they see it for
      themselves. Maybe a battery destruction demonstration would be in order
      prior to any class on the subject.

      Maybe show them what 1000+ amps does to a crescent wrench that
      accidentally touches two battery posts on the same battery. Words will
      fall on def ears, but the blinding flash of plasma will be burned into
      their retinas forever :-O

      Kinda like "how many crashes does a biker have to have before they start
      wearing a helmet" ;-)

      (appologies for the digg, but it is the same thing) For some, seeing is
      believing.

      Mike




      On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:27 PM , Bill Dube wrote:

      > No matter what you read or how thoroughly you are instructed, it seems
      > like no one _really_ gets the proper respect for battery safety until
      > they personally experience a "plasma event".
      >
      > I have lectured and instructed newbees about the safety precautions
      > told them repeatedly that "1000's of amps will flow" if you are not
      > very careful. They will still be careless with tools, nuts, bolts,
      > soldering irons, etc. no matter how many times I pull them aside and
      > say, "If this had touched that, 1000's of amps would have flowed with
      > a blinding flash. You need to really be careful and deliberate when
      > working with batteries."
      >
      > Then, they will finally do something stupid, like measure the
      > length of a high-power cell with metal calipers, or carelessly touch
      > "this" to "that", or drop a bus bar into just the wrong spot. After
      > their vision clears and they can hear once again, they will
      > universally say, "Oh my god! I had no idea that would happen!" They
      > finally get "religion" about safety procedures around batteries after
      > that. It seems to require an object lesson to fully appreciate the
      > true meaning of "1000's of amps will flow."
      >
      > 1) _Always_ wear those blue nitrile mechanic's gloves when working on
      > the battery pack or the high-current wiring of your EV.
      >
      > 2) Check for ground faults first, before you do _anything_ else.
      >
      > 3) Don't just "dive in" and go to work. Instead, carefully think
      > through every move you make before you pick up a tool or touch
      > anything. Be _very_ deliberate. Think about the "other" end of the
      > wire or the tool. Where could that bus bar drop? Where are you going
      > to put that bolt when you remove it? Where are you going to put that
      > tool down while you are hand-loosening that nut?
      >
      > 4) Take a few extra moments to tape up the metal surfaces of the tool.
      > Then cover surrounding exposed parts with a heavy cloth, rubber matt,
      > blue painter's tape, insulating board, etc.
      >
      > Of course, you will ignore all these precautions until you actually
      > personally witness "1000's of amps flowing." :-)
      >
      > Bill Dube'
      >
      >
      > At 03:31 PM 6/30/2009, you wrote:
      >> I am currently reading up on high voltage electrical systems for my
      >> ev.
      >> I came across talk about the risk of arcing your electrical
      >> components.
      >> What does this mean?
      >> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
      >> Thanks!
      >>
      >> _______________________________________________
      >> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      >> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      >> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      >> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



      ------------------------------

      Message: 19
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:33:43 -0700 (PDT)
      From: Joel Sell <justthesells@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kelly Controller Owners (I DO have a contactor)
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <870430.85745.qm@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      Sorry for all the confusion, but I most certainly *DO* have a main contactor set up to connect the pack to the controller when I have the key in the "on" position in the ignition.
      ALONG WITH THE MAIN CONTACTOR, I also have an emergency disconnect in the middle of the pack that is manually operated. A theft deterrent of sorts. Even if someone hotwired the ignition, they couldn't go anywhere without the "key" to the emergency disconnect.
      I followed Kelly's wiring diagram to a "T". Believe me, if it said to put a 12v actuated contactor between the pack and the controller, I DID. I figured that everyone had a contactor between the pack and the controller, so I didn't mention it?in my original post.
      So to recap: The van was OFF, (no power to the main contactor) and I disconnected the emergency disconnect. My kit only came with one contactor, so I put it between the B+ side of the controller and the positive side of the pack (as per the Kelly wiring diagram). I've seen cars where they have two contactors. My guess is one on the positive and negative sides...?
      Does this change anyone's thoughts on how this could have happened?
      Thanks for the suggestions,
      Joel in Philly



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      ------------------------------

      Message: 20
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:01:46 -0700
      From: "lcalarea47 @..." <lcalarea47@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kelly Controller Owners (I DO have a contactor)
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <e0442b300906301801p5f3ef828o5168985f744c974b@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      hi what model number of kelly ? is there a red flashing light blinking on
      controller ? lonnie

      On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Joel Sell <justthesells@...> wrote:

      > Sorry for all the confusion, but I most certainly *DO* have a main
      > contactor set up to connect the pack to the controller when I have the key
      > in the "on" position in the ignition.
      > ALONG WITH THE MAIN CONTACTOR, I also have an emergency disconnect in the
      > middle of the pack that is manually operated. A theft deterrent of sorts.
      > Even if someone hotwired the ignition, they couldn't go anywhere without the
      > "key" to the emergency disconnect.
      > I followed Kelly's wiring diagram to a "T". Believe me, if it said to put a
      > 12v actuated contactor between the pack and the controller, I DID. I figured
      > that everyone had a contactor between the pack and the controller, so I
      > didn't mention it in my original post.
      > So to recap: The van was OFF, (no power to the main contactor) and I
      > disconnected the emergency disconnect. My kit only came with one contactor,
      > so I put it between the B+ side of the controller and the positive side of
      > the pack (as per the Kelly wiring diagram). I've seen cars where they have
      > two contactors. My guess is one on the positive and negative sides...?
      > Does this change anyone's thoughts on how this could have happened?
      > Thanks for the suggestions,
      > Joel in Philly
      >
      >
      >
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      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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      ------------------------------

      Message: 21
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:21:20 -0400
      From: Seth Rothenberg <nevjersey@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] Zilla Z1K LV manual?
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <e80545a50906301821j14c989d1lb21046f05d24d9d@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      does anyone have an extra manual for Z1K?
      I managed to misplace it - will probably find it
      when I buy my first production EV in 2011.
      But I am getting ready to wire now.

      The PDF online is not clear enough for me.

      Thanks
      Seth



      ------------------------------

      Message: 22
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:26:22 -0400
      From: "Thor Johnson" <tjohnson@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kelly Controller Owners (I DO have a contactor)
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <7B958CF9A4D1B4428B10C703765EDAEA08A015@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      I might see your problem then...

      There's a precharge resistor across the main contactor; this will allow battery-charging voltage to be applied to the controller if you didn't pull the emergency disconnect. The resistor prevents a high-current surge when the contactor closes (and won't let enough current through to power the car), but it will let 1A of any voltage through.

      If you have another contactor on the - side of the battery, that isolates the battery from the controller so no current can flow.

      Since your emergency disconnect is in the middle, how do you charge your pack?

      -Thor



      -----Original Message-----
      From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Joel Sell
      Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 8:34 PM
      To: ev@...
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kelly Controller Owners (I DO have a contactor)

      Sorry for all the confusion, but I most certainly *DO* have a main contactor set up to connect the pack to the controller when I have the key in the "on" position in the ignition.
      ALONG WITH THE MAIN CONTACTOR, I also have an emergency disconnect in the middle of the pack that is manually operated. A theft deterrent of sorts. Even if someone hotwired the ignition, they couldn't go anywhere without the "key" to the emergency disconnect.
      I followed Kelly's wiring diagram to a "T". Believe me, if it said to put a 12v actuated contactor between the pack and the controller, I DID. I figured that everyone had a contactor between the pack and the controller, so I didn't mention it?in my original post.
      So to recap: The van was OFF, (no power to the main contactor) and I disconnected the emergency disconnect. My kit only came with one contactor, so I put it between the B+ side of the controller and the positive side of the pack (as per the Kelly wiring diagram). I've seen cars where they have two contactors. My guess is one on the positive and negative sides...?
      Does this change anyone's thoughts on how this could have happened?
      Thanks for the suggestions,
      Joel in Philly



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      Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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      ------------------------------

      Message: 23
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:27:14 -0700
      From: Roger Stockton <rstockton@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kelly Controller Owners (I DO have a contactor)
      To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <706F54AA6AA33D48AD2CDA168A1E35CF28BB261192@...-q.local>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      Joel Sell wrote:

      > Sorry for all the confusion, but I most certainly *DO* have a
      > main contactor set up to connect the pack to the controller
      > when I have the key in the "on" position in the ignition.
      > ALONG WITH THE MAIN CONTACTOR, I also have an emergency
      > disconnect in the middle of the pack that is manually
      > operated. A theft deterrent of sorts. Even if someone
      > hotwired the ignition, they couldn't go anywhere without the
      > "key" to the emergency disconnect.
      > I followed Kelly's wiring diagram to a "T". Believe me, if it
      > said to put a 12v actuated contactor between the pack and the
      > controller, I DID. I figured that everyone had a contactor
      > between the pack and the controller, so I didn't mention it?
      > in my original post.
      > So to recap: The van was OFF, (no power to the main
      > contactor) and I disconnected the emergency disconnect. My
      > kit only came with one contactor, so I put it between the B+
      > side of the controller and the positive side of the pack (as
      > per the Kelly wiring diagram). I've seen cars where they have
      > two contactors. My guess is one on the positive and negative
      > sides...?

      If I recall correctly, didn't your original post state that the vehicle was working fine when you parked it, but when you tried to drive after charging you found it dead?

      If you disconnected the emergency disconnect when you parked the vehicle, then how could you charge have charged it?

      If you turned off the main contactor when parked, the controller should not be exposed to the charging voltage... Provided the main contactor actually opened. Have you verified that the contactor actually does break the connection between the battery and controller when you turn it off? It may have failed closed.

      Do you have a precharge resistor across the main contactor? If you do, then the battery remains connected to the controller during charging unless you have an additional relay in series with the precharge resistor so that it is also disconnected from the battery when the key is off.

      If you have a precharge resistor premanently connected across the main contactor, then even with the main contactor open and the emergenecy disconnect open, you will subject the controller to the charger output voltage. If you connect the charger with the emergency disconnect open, then the charger cannot charge the battery and its output voltage may rise to its maximum, perhaps even higher than it gets when charging the battery.

      Cheers,

      Roger.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 24
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:41:30 -0400
      From: "Barry Oppenheim" <barry@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zilla Z1K LV manual?
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <AJECJKOCIDAPNAHKIEMKCEIKHEAA.barry@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

      Seth,

      The printed manual I received with the Zilla appears to be the same as the
      PDF version. When you say not clear do you mean "can't see" or "can't
      understand".

      Barry Oppenheim
      New Hope, PA
      www.JustAnotherEVConversion.blogspot.com

      -----Original Message-----
      From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...]On
      Behalf Of Seth Rothenberg
      Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 9:21 PM
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
      Subject: [EVDL] Zilla Z1K LV manual?


      does anyone have an extra manual for Z1K?
      I managed to misplace it - will probably find it
      when I buy my first production EV in 2011.
      But I am getting ready to wire now.

      The PDF online is not clear enough for me.

      Thanks
      Seth

      _______________________________________________
      General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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      ------------------------------

      Message: 25
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:26:49 -0400
      From: Seth Rothenberg <nevjersey@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zilla Z1K LV manual?
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <e80545a50906302026o53c07199ka475f07417e79df0@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      >>When you say not clear do you mean "can't see" or "can't
      >> understand".

      Can't see. I think the printed one I had was legible,
      but the online one is not. Maybe I need to
      print it on a high-res printer at work ?



      ------------------------------

      Message: 26
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:11:28 -0500
      From: gary <gkrysztopik@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] charging stations
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <4A4AC5D0.5000507@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      We've been working with the city as much as possible and Craig, from our
      chapter, worked with a church downtown that wanted to provide an EV
      charging port. He built this up to quite a press release for "the first
      public electric vehicle charging port in San Antonio". The press jumped
      in, city and county officials, local electric company, etc, etc and it
      was a real EVent - we had seven chapter EV's there and got a couple news
      spots and radio air time (free!).

      We also volunteered to be on a sub-committee for Alternative Energy
      Fueling Stations as part of a $12.9M federal Energy Efficiency block
      grant. There's money flowing - let's try to make sure it's spent wisely!

      Keep "plugging away" and push for all the EV exposure possible, we need
      it.

      Gary Krysztopik
      www.ZWheelz.com
      www.aceaa.org (pictures of EVent will be posted soon)
      San Antonio, TX


      Church Offers Electric Car Charging


      Travis Park United Methodist Church Unveils Charging Station

      POSTED: Tuesday, June 30, 2009
      UPDATED: 6:43 pm CDT June 30, 2009
      *SAN ANTONIO -- *A local church has set up the city's first public
      recharging station for electric cars and hopes that there are many more
      on the way. Travis Park United Methodist Church pastor Claus Rohlfs said
      that he hopes that stations like the one at his church become more
      common in the future, especially with the condition the environment is
      currently in."The church is very conscious of the need for significant
      changes in the world around us," Rohlfs said.The church unveiled the
      charging station on Tuesday morning, which was made possible with the
      help of groups such as Ace Technologies in San Antonio. While there is
      currently not a very high demand for electric stations, electric car
      owners believe that there will soon be a need for the stations."In 2010,
      there will be thousands of plug-in hybrid cars and these cars need
      places to plug in," Craig Egan said. "So the church has been gracious
      enough to offer their facility as the first place to offer it free.
      They're not even charging for the electricity for folks to come in and
      charge their cars."With the rising cost of gas, the idea of an owning an
      electric car is quickly catching on with some drivers. Luke Laborde and
      his father have converted their once gas powered car into an all
      electric vehicle."It helps save on short trips around the neighborhood,
      to the store and stuff like that," Laborde said. "Now I can even go down
      to my church and recharge it there."

      /Copyright 2009 by KSAT.com <mailto:webstaff@...> All rights
      reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or
      redistributed. /



      ------------------------------

      Message: 27
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 20:52:36 -0500
      From: gary <gkrysztopik@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Personal "Plasma Event"
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <4A4AC164.2080602@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed


      thanks for the safety reminder Bill, we can't repeat this too often.
      I've added a couple comments ...
      >
      > 1) _Always_ wear those blue nitrile mechanic's gloves when working on
      > the battery pack or the high-current wiring of your EV.
      >
      >
      - or even better - lineman's gloves. much thicker and rated for the big
      HV ($40 grainger). optional leather covers ($40).
      > 4) Take a few extra moments to tape up the metal surfaces of the
      > tool. Then cover surrounding exposed parts with a heavy cloth, rubber
      > matt, blue painter's tape, insulating board, etc.
      >
      - careful! a quick wrap of electrical tape might not insulate HV.
      Better than nothing but maybe use thicker pipe insulation, rubber sheet,
      etc.

      Gary Krysztopik
      www.ZWheelz.com
      www.aceaa.org
      San Antonio, TX




      ------------------------------

      Message: 28
      Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:38:53 +1000
      From: James Massey <jcmassey@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] Progress on Honda
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20090701132246.00a4f060@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

      G'day All

      Looking at battery layouts, Honda Civic 1991 hatchback.

      Looks like I'll get rid of the back seat, just go as a two seater (with a
      deck in the back, suits the intended useage better), so a bit over half the
      batteries in this area. (The alternative is to keep the back seat, put the
      balance of the batteries in the spare wheel well and in front of the well
      behind the seat, but that interfered with the 'errand running' intended use).

      Batteries will be in insulated, heated boxes.

      The front batteries will be in two battery boxes in the engine bay. Here is
      where the question comes:

      Mounting the battery boxes in the engine bay, I have a nice strong
      cross-member in front and behind the motor, but not much else to mount to.
      There are the towing/tiedown rings providing three bolts each side into a
      strong point, one unused bolt hole in the firewall crossmember, and that is
      all I can find for existing attachment points for the battery boxes.

      I've concluded that the best way to mount them will be to weld to the
      cross-members some mounting points. On the front cross member they will be
      only up enough to provide the thickness for the box insulation, on the rear
      a frame tall enough for the box to clear the motor. The front box will be
      framed up to provide a mounting point for the box that will mount over the
      motor, this will tie them together, stabilising them.

      Anyone see a problem with this, or have a better idea?

      Thanks

      Regards

      [Technik] James



      ------------------------------

      Message: 29
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 20:10:39 -0800
      From: Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Personal "Plasma Event"
      To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <398BE61818024AC29620B00B25111657@aurorafourPC>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

      One thing I am wanting to do for my Junior racer is get some of those plastic (composite) tools, like the composite ratchet and open
      end wrenches. Has anyone ever played with any of those? Most of the stuff the Junior has to use does not take that much torque so
      the plastic tools should be fine. They are plastic handles with the metal inserts for the ends. I saw some of the plastic ratchets
      a while back but don't remember where to get them. Does any one know?

      Mike

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf Of gary
      > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:53 PM
      > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
      > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Personal "Plasma Event"
      >
      >
      > thanks for the safety reminder Bill, we can't repeat this too often.
      > I've added a couple comments ...
      > >
      > > 1) _Always_ wear those blue nitrile mechanic's gloves when working on
      > > the battery pack or the high-current wiring of your EV.
      > >
      > >
      > - or even better - lineman's gloves. much thicker and rated for the big
      > HV ($40 grainger). optional leather covers ($40).
      > > 4) Take a few extra moments to tape up the metal surfaces of the
      > > tool. Then cover surrounding exposed parts with a heavy cloth, rubber
      > > matt, blue painter's tape, insulating board, etc.
      > >
      > - careful! a quick wrap of electrical tape might not insulate HV.
      > Better than nothing but maybe use thicker pipe insulation, rubber sheet,
      > etc.
      >
      > Gary Krysztopik
      > www.ZWheelz.com
      > www.aceaa.org
      > San Antonio, TX
      >
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



      ------------------------------

      Message: 30
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:16:31 -0700
      From: David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Personal "Plasma Event"
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <c5b2f1dc0906302116i3e5fe1e6raa7a252ea7debf8@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      I have never used these but here is a link I had on some:
      http://www.cementexusa.com/index.php

      HTH,


      On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Mike Willmon<electrabishi@...> wrote:
      > One thing I am wanting to do for my Junior racer is get some of those plastic (composite) tools, like the composite ratchet and open
      > end wrenches. ?Has anyone ever played with any of those? ?Most of the stuff the Junior has to use does not take that much torque so
      > the plastic tools should be fine. ?They are plastic handles with the metal inserts for the ends. ?I saw some of the plastic ratchets
      > a while back but don't remember where to get them. ?Does any one know?



      --
      David D. Nelson
      http://evalbum.com/1328



      ------------------------------

      Message: 31
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 20:24:25 -0800
      From: Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Progress on Honda
      To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <50A5C209EB0F4290879FF635ABB25BC1@aurorafourPC>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

      James,
      I would tie any of the front boxes to any existing frame members you can find. The boxes should have at least 4 points of contact
      unless you can get one full side (front or rear) solidly resting on a cross member, then you could go with 1 point on the middle of
      the other side. Any extra bracing you add that ties the front side rails together helps. I only know this from racing the Pinto
      where I have one small piece of uni-strut type material (mainly for cable management) tied from side to side, just under where the
      hood closes on top of (grammatical error, I know). All the racers say that little bit does tremendous work to keep the chassis from
      flexing. I also have one of those mounted in the Mitsubishi Mightymax for a controller and charger mounting platform. However, I
      think the Mitsu as a daily driver would do alright without them. You on the other hand are wanting to mount batteries in there. I
      would at least plan to have 4 points of contact to the frame and add them if you cant. The only exception is that if you can get
      one full side (front or back) of the tray over a cross member then you should be able to get by with one attachment point in the
      middle of the other side.

      My 0.2Kwh worth

      Mike

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf Of James Massey
      > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 7:39 PM
      > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
      > Subject: [EVDL] Progress on Honda
      >
      > G'day All
      >
      > Looking at battery layouts, Honda Civic 1991 hatchback.
      >
      > Looks like I'll get rid of the back seat, just go as a two seater (with a
      > deck in the back, suits the intended useage better), so a bit over half the
      > batteries in this area. (The alternative is to keep the back seat, put the
      > balance of the batteries in the spare wheel well and in front of the well
      > behind the seat, but that interfered with the 'errand running' intended use).
      >
      > Batteries will be in insulated, heated boxes.
      >
      > The front batteries will be in two battery boxes in the engine bay. Here is
      > where the question comes:
      >
      > Mounting the battery boxes in the engine bay, I have a nice strong
      > cross-member in front and behind the motor, but not much else to mount to.
      > There are the towing/tiedown rings providing three bolts each side into a
      > strong point, one unused bolt hole in the firewall crossmember, and that is
      > all I can find for existing attachment points for the battery boxes.
      >
      > I've concluded that the best way to mount them will be to weld to the
      > cross-members some mounting points. On the front cross member they will be
      > only up enough to provide the thickness for the box insulation, on the rear
      > a frame tall enough for the box to clear the motor. The front box will be
      > framed up to provide a mounting point for the box that will mount over the
      > motor, this will tie them together, stabilising them.
      >
      > Anyone see a problem with this, or have a better idea?
      >
      > Thanks
      >
      > Regards
      >
      > [Technik] James
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



      ------------------------------

      Message: 32
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 20:25:16 -0800
      From: Mike Willmon <electrabishi@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Personal "Plasma Event"
      To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <D8EB8AE8BC934D7693A635BF491E548F@aurorafourPC>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

      Their links don't work. But I'm interested.

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf Of David Nelson
      > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 8:17 PM
      > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
      > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Personal "Plasma Event"
      >
      > I have never used these but here is a link I had on some:
      > http://www.cementexusa.com/index.php
      >
      > HTH,
      >
      >
      > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Mike Willmon<electrabishi@...> wrote:
      > > One thing I am wanting to do for my Junior racer is get some of those plastic (composite) tools, like the
      > composite ratchet and open
      > > end wrenches. ?Has anyone ever played with any of those? ?Most of the stuff the Junior has to use does not take
      > that much torque so
      > > the plastic tools should be fine. ?They are plastic handles with the metal inserts for the ends. ?I saw some of the
      > plastic ratchets
      > > a while back but don't remember where to get them. ?Does any one know?
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > David D. Nelson
      > http://evalbum.com/1328
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev




      ------------------------------

      Message: 33
      Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:31:25 -0700
      From: David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Personal "Plasma Event"
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <c5b2f1dc0906302131l10a10923yf46ad38b832a5aca@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      I was just there and just checked it again. Try this:
      www.cementexusa.com maybe you use a different browser. If that doesn't
      work if you can take a 20mb file I can email you their pdf.

      On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Mike Willmon<electrabishi@...> wrote:
      > Their links don't work. ?But I'm interested.
      >
      >> -----Original Message-----
      >> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf Of David Nelson
      >> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 8:17 PM
      >> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
      >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Personal "Plasma Event"
      >>
      >> I have never used these but here is a link I had on some:
      >> http://www.cementexusa.com/index.php
      >>
      >> HTH,
      >>
      >>
      >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Mike Willmon<electrabishi@...> wrote:
      >> > One thing I am wanting to do for my Junior racer is get some of those plastic (composite) tools, like the
      >> composite ratchet and open
      >> > end wrenches. ?Has anyone ever played with any of those? ?Most of the stuff the Junior has to use does not take
      >> that much torque so
      >> > the plastic tools should be fine. ?They are plas
      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
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