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EV Digest, Vol 20, Issue 1

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      Today's Topics:

      1. Re: What gear do you drive in? (Jeff Shanab)
      2. EV legislation/ rules / incentives (Peter Gabrielsson)
      3. Re: F-250 battery placement (Roger Stockton)
      4. Re: Improving the Efficiency of a Geo Metro EV Conversion
      (Roger Stockton)
      5. Re: EV legislation/ rules / incentives (Ruspert)
      6. Re: EV legislation/ rules / incentives (EVDL Administrator)
      7. Re: What gear do you drive in? (Lawrence Rhodes)
      8. Re: Sepex hill climbing (David Dymaxion)
      9. Re: 1988 ford aerostar (joe)
      10. Re: Controllers: LogiSystems vs Curtis (Lee Hart)
      11. Re: Two-way radio suggestions for EV racing (Victor Tikhonov)
      12. Re: 1988 ford aerostar (Lee Hart)
      13. Re: EV legislation/ rules / incentives (Lee Hart)
      14. Re: EV legislation/ rules / incentives (robert winfield)
      15. Re: EV legislation/ rules / incentives (Bob Rice)
      16. Re: 1988 ford aerostar (Charlie P)
      17. Re: EV legislation/ rules / incentives (Charlie P)
      18. Re: Two-way radio suggestions for EV racing
      (EVtrainingCenter@...)
      19. Re: (EVDL) EV Legislation, Rules, and Incentives
      (EVtrainingCenter@...)
      20. Re: 1988 ford aerostar (Charlie P)
      21. Re: 1988 ford aerostar (Charlie P)
      22. Re: variable regen with Sevcon Sepex? (David Nelson)
      23. Re: Two-way radio suggestions for EV racing (Morgan LaMoore)
      24. Re: Sepex hill climbing (Evan Tuer)
      25. Interesting Clutch / Transmissions (Ray Brooks)
      26. Re: Controllers: LogiSystems vs Curtis (Jack Rickard)
      27. Re: variable regen with Sevcon Sepex? (lawlessind@...)
      28. Re: EV legislation/ rules / incentives (Randy Kramer)
      29. Re: Controllers: LogiSystems vs Curtis Yeah, More! (Bob Rice)
      30. Re: Controllers: LogiSystems vs Curtis (Jack Rickard)


      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Message: 1
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:17:32 -0800
      From: Jeff Shanab <jshanab@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] What gear do you drive in?
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <49A99BDC.80201@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      Amazing how many of us find the same pattern. I start in 2nd and shift
      to third. If I go on the freeway I'll use 4th.
      I haven't tried 5th as i was going 75 in 4th and in this town, a red
      300zx is a ticket magnet.

      I guess transmission gear ratios are close to the same, we are mostly
      using 9" motors, and we all have added weight.

      Mine is warp 9 in a 288V50ah 4000lb 9187 300zx.

      Before I advanced the motor, I could start in third fine. Sometimes I
      still do, but it is obviously lugging.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 2
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:28:51 -0800
      From: Peter Gabrielsson <peter.gabrielsson@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] EV legislation/ rules / incentives
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <12a962740902281228r55c8ca61sb5b2beac1af8e89c@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      Greetings fellow EVers,


      Suppose you had the chance to affect legislation regarding electric
      vehicles. What laws/incentives would you like to see put in place to
      further the adoption of plugin vehicles and required infrastructure?
      The flip side to that question; what existing laws/incentives would
      you like to see undone.

      /Peter



      --
      www.electric-lemon.com



      ------------------------------

      Message: 3
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:54:21 -0800
      From: Roger Stockton <rstockton@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] F-250 battery placement
      To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <706F54AA6AA33D48AD2CDA168A1E35CF252A519405@...-q.local>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

      John G. Lussmyer wrote:

      > I'm trying to figure out how many batteries I should attempt
      > to fit under the hood of my F-250 conversion.
      > I plan on 40-48 batteries total, most of them in the bed (in
      > a box!) for now.
      > I figure I need to put a battery box under the hood as well
      > to get the weight distribution somewhere near correct.
      > I pulled a 750lb motor, and replaced it with a pair of Impulse 9".

      A pair of Impulse 9's is 260lb; call it 300lb with the coupler and adapter. So, you can stuff 450lbs of batteries under the hood before getting back to the stock front axle weight. 450lbs is about 7 T105-size batteries.

      What are your axle weight ratings? I don't recall if you mentioned what year your F250 is, but the numbers that come up in a quick google are 10,000lb GVWR, with 6000lb GAWR (front) and 6100lb GAWR (rear). I see mention that some (older?) models were 8,800lb GVWR, but don't know if they shared a similarly near equal front/rear axle weight rating.

      48 T105-size floodies is about 3120lbs; depending how much weight is on the rear axle empty, you may not be able to stuff them all in the bed without exceeding the rear axle weight rating anyway.

      If you want to keep the battery boxes simple (i.e. plain rectangular boxes rather than T-shaped to take advantage of the extra width ahead of the wheel wells), then an option is a 3.5' wide by 5' long box centered as far forward in the bed as possible. This box can hold 32 flooded GC batteries in 8 rows of 4. This leaves you up to 16 batteries to place under the hood. A box 3.5' x 2.5' under the hood can hold 16 flooded GC batteries in a 4 x 4 array. If even the 2.5' dimension is too wide to fit down between the front inner fenders, then drop back to a 3 x 4 array (or if length permits, a 3 x 5 array).

      16 T105-size batteries under the hood is about 1040lbs; allowing 300lbs for the motors, this puts you at just under 600lbs heavier up front than stock. 32 T105-size batteries in the bed is 2080lbs, most of which is on the rear axle, so it seems splitting the pack up about like this should result in a pretty decent load distribution.

      If you want a little more rearward bias, widening the rear box slightly from about 42" to about 44", and lengthening it slightly from about 60" to 64" would allow you to fit 6 rows of 6 batteries in the rear, for 36 total and about 2340lbs. This drops the front box to holding only 12 batteries in a 3x4 array, for 780lbs in batteries up front (about 330lbs heavier than stock).

      Cheers,

      Roger.





      ------------------------------

      Message: 4
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 13:02:35 -0800
      From: Roger Stockton <rstockton@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Improving the Efficiency of a Geo Metro EV
      Conversion
      To: "'mark58152@...'" <mark58152@...>, "'Electric Vehicle
      Discussion List'" <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <706F54AA6AA33D48AD2CDA168A1E35CF252A519406@...-q.local>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

      Mark Freidberg wrote:

      > Hi Roger,
      >
      > Shifting to '1' and depressing throttle just enough to spin
      > the motor doesn't generate pull against the parking brake.
      > Dashboard digital ammeter reading held steady at 12 amps.
      > Nominal pack voltage is 96v. Geo has been parked in ambient
      > air temperatures in high 30s to 40s F.
      >
      > Longer term I've noticed that air temps over 70 F result in
      > less slippage then colder air masses. So does driving a few
      > miles in colder temps once transmission warms up. In general,
      > '1' has less slippage then '2' or 'D' when accelerating from
      > dead stop (car and motor motionless.
      >
      > Does that info. help determine what BAT did?

      It certainly sounds like the torque converter may still be present and functional. How fast were you spinning the motor? You need to spin it at least a few hundred RPM to ensure there is enough fluid pressure in the tranny to engage the clutches. If the torque converter is still present, you should be able to spin the electric motor at the original ICE's idle speed (probably near 1000RPM) without significant pull being generated against the brake. If the torque converter is locked up, you should notice significant pull.

      Cheers,

      Roger.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 5
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 13:32:42 -0800 (PST)
      From: Ruspert <rusk@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV legislation/ rules / incentives
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <22267089.post@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



      There are at present enough incentitives and the laws are adequate to my
      satisfaction. Government intrusion is not welcome.
      --
      View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/EV-legislation--rules---incentives-tp22266454p22267089.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 6
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 16:49:01 -0500
      From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV legislation/ rules / incentives
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <49A96AFD.5190.D2CCDF4@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

      On 28 Feb 2009 at 13:32, someone wrote:

      > Government intrusion is not welcome.

      Folks, this is a potentially interesting discussion, if IMO perhaps somewhat
      less than effectual because we have relatively little chance of actually
      influencing legislation (AFAIK, there's essentially no effective EV lobby).

      However, please be careful to avoid emotionally loaded comments like the one
      above. It's enough to say "the current legislative incentives are
      sufficient."

      For that matter, if you think legislation (including what exists now) is
      counterproductive, then explain why -- in rational terms.

      We also don't need or want rants in the other direction.

      Using hot-button phrases like "government intrusion" -- or, for that matter,
      "our do nothing congress" and "best legislators oil money can buy" -- risks
      polarizing the list membership into left and right columns. When that
      happens the discussion is over and we're on to bickering.

      We get enough of that emotional manipulation from the political ads and
      newsertainment channels. Let's be conscious of their bad example and avoid
      it here, please.

      Thanks.

      David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
      EVDL Administrator

      = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
      EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
      = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
      Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
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      email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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      ------------------------------

      Message: 7
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 14:38:30 -0800 (PST)
      From: Lawrence Rhodes <primobassoon@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] What gear do you drive in?
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <416357.18780.qm@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


      Regardless of gear the ammeter is your best indication of the correct gear choice. However with a 144v pack you may be able to over rev your motor in first or second. I drive using 1st exclusively around town. If I go on the freeway I choose 2Nd and keep it around 50. This is the least amp drain. I always watch for the best (lowest) amp reading at any speed in any gear. So you might have to experiment. In first gear at 25mph I would register on level ground 25 to 50 amps. Up a hill then I try to keep in under 200 and shift accordingly. No ammeter & you have no idea but I can tell you from experience 3rd gear at 20 will produce 300 to 500 amps easily. Lawrence Rhodes


      ------------------------------

      Message: 8
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:28:07 -0800 (PST)
      From: David Dymaxion <david_dymaxion@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sepex hill climbing
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <145241.25038.qm@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

      Evan and Morgan:

      Yes and no... I was being a bit simple in my comment. My understanding is the Curtis sepex controller does some current multiplication at low rpm, and at higher rpms torque is regulated by varying the field. I agree you can do things that way.

      Others have done this, and I'm planning on a variant. Let the sepex motor idle, so you aren't starting the car from zero rpm (use a clutch). Control is by varying the field, the armature switches straight to the pack (This description is for simplicity, I'm actually going to be a bit fancier.). For this case you don't have current multiplication (except for the small field current), nor do you really need it.

      In any case, don't you want to avoid current multiplication when climbing a hill? Since a sepex can (in theory, at least) run the same torque as a series motor without current multiplication (for a range of rpm), would it be better to run it slower than a series motor up a hill? It's not just an academic question, as my conversion should be mobile in the next few months, and we have some very steep hills here at the home of the 2002 Winter Olympics.

      For someone else's comment:

      Yes, many sepex machines are single gear, but mine is going to be 5 speed. I'm hoping to find use for the top 4 gears. :)

      I'm chipping away at my conversion, I'll be sure to let everyone know how my science project ideas pan out.

      > Might it be better to go up a hill at lower rpm with a sepex? You don't have current multiplication like a series motor.

      Yes you do, if you are using a PWM controller.




      ------------------------------

      Message: 9
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:42:09 -0800
      From: "joe" <joe@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 1988 ford aerostar
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <1B086F8CBBBB4674900D39EA17E6B869@Sales>
      Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
      reply-type=original

      If I was going to try a van, I'd probably pick an older Caravan, Aerostar,
      or a VW bus. I have a 1996 Windstar with engine problems, but it is probably
      too heavy to be practical. I have no plans at this point to convert a van.

      Joseph H. Strubhar

      Web: www.gremcoinc.com

      E-mail: joe@...



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 11:43 AM
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 1988 ford aerostar


      > On 28 Feb 2009 at 7:14, joe wrote:
      >
      >> In Oregon, we don't use much salt on the road - the Caravan I have is in
      >> really good condition; it has just over 100,000 miles on it now, and was
      >> painstakingly taken care of by the previous owner.
      >
      > What are you going to use for conversion? It sounds like a good
      > candidate,
      > if it has a manual transmission (admittedly pretty rare). You might talk
      > to
      > Lee Hart; if my memory is still working right, at one time he had some
      > plans
      > to convert an early Dodge Caravan. He did have one with a stick shift. I
      > think he ended up selling the Caravan as an ICE though.
      >
      > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
      > EVDL Administrator
      >
      > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
      > EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
      > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
      > Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
      > reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
      > email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
      > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
      >
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >


      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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      ------------------------------

      Message: 10
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 17:47:21 -0600
      From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controllers: LogiSystems vs Curtis
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <49A9CD09.7080300@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      Jack Rickard wrote:
      > > A great controller at $3000 in six months doesn't do me much good.
      > > A great controller at $5000 with next day delivery would be better.
      > > But that doesn't seem to be the mark with most of the people
      > > converting cars.

      I agree. But there's a simple solution for people who want it now but
      are willing to pay more. Buy it from a dealer. You get it now, for a
      higher price. The dealer pays a lower price, but waits that X months for
      delivery for you.

      > > You are very fortunate I didn't buy the Zilla design from Otmar. I
      > > actually thought about it. The good news is they would be very
      > > available by now. The bad news is they would be $6500 per. You
      > > could have one next day, - there would be no "waiting list". But
      > > that would be because it was priced to make the list go away.

      This works if there are enough customers to sustain your business.
      Suppose Otmar sells 100 controllers a year at $3000 with a 6-month
      backlog. Further, let's assume he makes $500 profit per sale; then he's
      making $50k/year. That's pretty low pay for a talented engineer! So he
      sells the business to you.

      You double the price to $6000, and offer in-stock delivery. But that
      cuts sales to 10 a year, because now you're priced up there with AC
      controllers. Even if you now make $2500 profit per controller, that's
      only $25k/year. You'll be making less than Otmar!
      EVDL Administrator wrote:
      > I'm sure this will make some folks on the EVDL see red; they'll
      > accuse you of profiteering. But for better or for worse, that's the
      > way our system is set up. I think there was a time when at least
      > some newly introduced products were priced according to what they
      > cost to produce. But that's not the case today. New products now
      > are almost universally priced according to what the potential
      > customer will pay.

      I agree. The system is the problem. If you play by these rules, you lose!

      The challenge is to find ways to break the rules. Find different way to
      design, or build, or market your products.
      --
      Ring the bells that still can ring
      Forget the perfect offering
      There is a crack in everything
      That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
      --
      Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



      ------------------------------

      Message: 11
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:49:21 -0800
      From: Victor Tikhonov <ac@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Two-way radio suggestions for EV racing
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <49A9CD81.90707@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      EVtrainingCenter@... wrote:
      ...

      > If you can put an antenna on the roof of the vehicle and a "Mobile" type unit
      > inside for better communication than any hand held. and use an
      > antenna on a ten foot pipe...

      I believe Bill's inquiry was about comm with the motorcycle,
      not a car. A ten foot pipe on a helmet would look funny... ;-)

      Victor



      ------------------------------

      Message: 12
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 18:00:04 -0600
      From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 1988 ford aerostar
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <49A9D004.2090405@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      joe wrote:
      > > In Oregon, we don't use much salt on the road - the Caravan I have
      > > is in really good condition; it has just over 100,000 miles on it
      > > now, and was painstakingly taken care of by the previous owner.

      EVDL Administrator wrote:
      > What are you going to use for conversion? It sounds like a good
      > candidate, if it has a manual transmission (admittedly pretty rare).
      > You might talk to Lee Hart; if my memory is still working right, at
      > one time he had some plans to convert an early Dodge Caravan. He did
      > have one with a stick shift. I think he ended up selling the Caravan
      > as an ICE though.

      You have a great memory, David. Yes, I bought a 1994 Plymouth Voyager
      (same as the Dodge Caravan) with the 2.5L 4-cyl engine and a 4-speed
      manual transmission, intending to convert it into an EV. It was fairly
      light, and got great gas mileage (30 mpg pretty regularly). But plans
      changed; I wound up converting the LeCar instead.

      I think it would have made a good conversion. There is room under the
      floor for a fairly large number of batteries, though they would need to
      be low-profile like Hawkers (not floodeds). The battery box would
      probably need to be dropped from the bottom so you could leave the floor
      intact (it's a unibody, so the floor is structrural.)
      --
      Ring the bells that still can ring
      Forget the perfect offering
      There is a crack in everything
      That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
      --
      Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



      ------------------------------

      Message: 13
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 18:11:08 -0600
      From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV legislation/ rules / incentives
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <49A9D29C.3090209@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
      > Suppose you had the chance to affect legislation regarding electric
      > vehicles. What laws/incentives would you like to see put in place to
      > further the adoption of plugin vehicles and required infrastructure?
      > The flip side to that question; what existing laws/incentives would
      > you like to see undone.
      >
      I would prefer that there be a new category of motor vehicle, in between
      a full-function car and an NEV. It has a lower top speed, and reduced
      safety requirements and equipment. For example, a 45 mph top speed, 4
      passengers max, 2000 lbs curb weight max. Must have very low emissions
      by whatever means manufacturers can devise.

      The goal is a small, cheap clean car that is safe enough for urban
      driving. I happen to think making it electric would be best, but let the
      market decide.

      --
      Ring the bells that still can ring
      Forget the perfect offering
      There is a crack in everything
      That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
      --
      Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



      ------------------------------

      Message: 14
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 17:05:17 -0800 (PST)
      From: robert winfield <winfield100@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV legislation/ rules / incentives
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <643544.29062.qm@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


      Like a CitiCar perhaps?

      --- On Sat, 2/28/09, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:

      From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV legislation/ rules / incentives
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Date: Saturday, February 28, 2009, 7:11 PM


      I would prefer that there be a new category of motor vehicle, in between
      a full-function car and an NEV. It has a lower top speed, and reduced
      safety requirements and equipment. For example, a 45 mph top speed, 4
      passengers max, 2000 lbs curb weight max. Must have very low emissions
      by whatever means manufacturers can devise.

      The goal is a small, cheap clean car that is safe enough for urban
      driving. I happen to think making it electric would be best, but let the
      market decide.

      --
      Ring the bells that still can ring
      Forget the perfect offering
      There is a crack in everything
      That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
      --
      Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

      _______________________________________________
      General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev




      ------------------------------

      Message: 15
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 20:35:43 -0500
      From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV legislation/ rules / incentives
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <EC013862ED3D420C9DD3C579BD72B374@adminwlzisp2uc>
      Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
      reply-type=original


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <peter.gabrielsson@...>
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 3:28 PM
      Subject: [EVDL] EV legislation/ rules / incentives


      > Greetings fellow EVers,
      >
      >
      > Suppose you had the chance to affect legislation regarding electric
      > vehicles. What laws/incentives would you like to see put in place to
      > further the adoption of plugin vehicles and required infrastructure?
      > The flip side to that question; what existing laws/incentives would
      > you like to see undone.
      >
      > /Peter
      Hi EVerybody;

      Funny ya should bring it up?We're talking about WHAT OUR EAA chapter can
      do. I mean other than "Show and Tells EVerywhere we go, car shows, Cruise
      Nites, stuff like that. We wanna go deeper; Maybe by TRYING to wrangle
      legislation, or better term, invcentives for biz's to put in plugs for the
      coming wave of EVers? What's in it for Joe Blow , manager of the local
      Stupermarket to put us in a few plugs, at least a 120 volter or so? Or,
      Gasp! A 240 volt 50 amper?As 120 volts plugs ARE pretty common , as an EVer
      I have gotten good at sniffing them out in my travels, but with todaze
      electricity prices you are a tad reluctant to just steal it?ASK? Yeah! Go
      for it, and YOU get a warm warm, when the plug owners sez sure, and wants a
      ride/look at yur EV? See "Show an' Tell.

      Could/would towns and cities go for Public Plugs?I don't think there
      would be very much Electric consumption? IF it was an issue we could deal
      with it with evolving technology? Swipe cards, coin op, like a parking
      meter?Drop in a quarter and get a half hour?But IF it were to catch on, ya
      KNOW restaurants, theaters, stores would throw" Free Charging for our EV
      Customers" lines in their ads?

      Sooooooooo, in Bob's Perfect World, of plenty, where we all live in
      Fantesy Land (Sorry, Walt Dizzy) With no big wants, all needs covered?Our
      tax structure would give incentives to get charging installed? Hey! I didn't
      get into WHAT plug to use? But ya heard my arguments about that in the last
      few weaks? At BBB there were serious people with intreaging setups, shovel,
      and cable crimper ready.Just Ask.

      Seeya

      Bob
      >
      >
      > --
      > www.electric-lemon.com
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >



      ------------------------------

      Message: 16
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 20:45:34 -0800 (PST)
      From: Charlie P <charlesccharles@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 1988 ford aerostar
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <22269869.post@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


      It would be great for me ,where is it ?

      joe-22 wrote:
      >
      > If I was going to try a van, I'd probably pick an older Caravan, Aerostar,
      > or a VW bus. I have a 1996 Windstar with engine problems, but it is
      > probably
      > too heavy to be practical. I have no plans at this point to convert a van.
      >
      > Joseph H. Strubhar
      >
      > Web: www.gremcoinc.com
      >
      > E-mail: joe@...
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
      > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 11:43 AM
      > Subject: Re: [EVDL] 1988 ford aerostar
      >
      >
      >> On 28 Feb 2009 at 7:14, joe wrote:
      >>
      >>> In Oregon, we don't use much salt on the road - the Caravan I have is in
      >>> really good condition; it has just over 100,000 miles on it now, and was
      >>> painstakingly taken care of by the previous owner.
      >>
      >> What are you going to use for conversion? It sounds like a good
      >> candidate,
      >> if it has a manual transmission (admittedly pretty rare). You might talk
      >> to
      >> Lee Hart; if my memory is still working right, at one time he had some
      >> plans
      >> to convert an early Dodge Caravan. He did have one with a stick shift. I
      >> think he ended up selling the Caravan as an ICE though.
      >>
      >> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
      >> EVDL Administrator
      >>
      >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
      >> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
      >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
      >> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
      >> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
      >> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
      >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
      >>
      >>
      >> _______________________________________________
      >> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      >> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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      >>
      >
      >
      > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >
      >
      > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.4/1976 - Release Date: 02/27/09
      > 13:27:00
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
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      >
      >
      >

      --
      View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/1988-ford-aerostar-tp22240575p22269869.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 17
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 20:52:12 -0800 (PST)
      From: Charlie P <charlesccharles@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV legislation/ rules / incentives
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <22269870.post@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


      Try www.robert c riley .com 3 wheels ,classified motorcycle. I am currently
      building two of them, also in process of building a web site.

      robert winfield wrote:
      >
      >
      > Like a CitiCar perhaps?
      >
      > --- On Sat, 2/28/09, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
      > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV legislation/ rules / incentives
      > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      > Date: Saturday, February 28, 2009, 7:11 PM
      >
      >
      > I would prefer that there be a new category of motor vehicle, in between
      > a full-function car and an NEV. It has a lower top speed, and reduced
      > safety requirements and equipment. For example, a 45 mph top speed, 4
      > passengers max, 2000 lbs curb weight max. Must have very low emissions
      > by whatever means manufacturers can devise.
      >
      > The goal is a small, cheap clean car that is safe enough for urban
      > driving. I happen to think making it electric would be best, but let the
      > market decide.
      >
      > --
      > Ring the bells that still can ring
      > Forget the perfect offering
      > There is a crack in everything
      > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
      > --
      > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >
      >
      >

      --
      View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/EV-legislation--rules---incentives-tp22266454p22269870.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 18
      Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 00:04:14 EST
      From: EVtrainingCenter@...
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Two-way radio suggestions for EV racing
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <bc4.4243d645.36db714e@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

      Victor, thanks I needed a good laugh. The ten foot pipe on a base made
      from a truck tire is to hold an antenna at the "pits"..... I wasn't thinking
      Motorcycle, the best mobile for a bike is a GOOD, High quality handheld in a
      bag at the small of the drivers back, and a noise canceling headset with
      automatic VOX transmit built into the full head helmet _..EVtrainingCenter@..._
      (mailto:..EVtrainingCenter@...)


      In a message dated 2/28/2009 6:56:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      ac@... writes:

      EVtrainingCenter@... wrote:
      ....

      > If you can put an antenna on the roof of the vehicle and a "Mobile" type
      unit
      > inside for better communication than any hand held. and use an
      > antenna on a ten foot pipe...

      I believe Bill's inquiry was about comm with the motorcycle,
      not a car. A ten foot pipe on a helmet would look funny... ;-)

      Victor

      _______________________________________________
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      Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
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      **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
      steps!
      (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID
      %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)


      ------------------------------

      Message: 19
      Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 00:37:41 EST
      From: EVtrainingCenter@...
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] (EVDL) EV Legislation, Rules, and Incentives
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <c5b.3e7e8f51.36db7925@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

      Right Peter, If we don't wave our flag someone else will wave theirs and get
      the attention we deserve.
      All the professional associations (Unions) I was a member of over the
      years ALWAYS had "Political Action Committees." Each year they would collect $ 5
      or $ 10 or as much as you wanted to give to pay for Lobbying Activity at
      state and federal level. That said, We really need to setup Political Action
      Committees in all of our EV Clubs So, bring it up at the next club meeting. the
      more we catch the attention of our Politicians, the more likely they will
      act positively on our behalf. Just sending each legislator a postcard each
      month will cost 50 cents each, but 3,000 postcards every month will remind them
      who their constituency is.and can only help our cause.
      **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
      steps!
      (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID
      %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)


      ------------------------------

      Message: 20
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 22:35:46 -0800 (PST)
      From: Charlie P <charlesccharles@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 1988 ford aerostar
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <22270367.post@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


      My web site is open for business,charles Price1932@charles price1932.org

      Charlie P wrote:
      >
      > this van has a 45 degree [approx] front profile, should be
      > aerodynamic,and in beautiful cond . would you think it a good candidate
      > for ev?
      >

      --
      View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/1988-ford-aerostar-tp22240575p22270367.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 21
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 23:42:07 -0800 (PST)
      From: Charlie P <charlesccharles@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] 1988 ford aerostar
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <22270636.post@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


      Sorry disregard web site [error] more later

      Charlie P wrote:
      >
      > this van has a 45 degree [approx] front profile, should be
      > aerodynamic,and in beautiful cond . would you think it a good candidate
      > for ev?
      >

      --
      View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/1988-ford-aerostar-tp22240575p22270636.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 22
      Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 23:55:48 -0800
      From: David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] variable regen with Sevcon Sepex?
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <c5b2f1dc0902282355i6162d6a2o69bdbcca8ddcb8e3@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      The controller Fred is talking about is a 48V Sevcon SepEx PP745. The
      1K resistor he is talking about is connected to pin 11 on connector B
      of the controller. The manual says this has a range of 3.5-0V. The
      regen circuit which came on my Gizmo is posted on my blog at
      http://2003gizmo.blogspot.com/ . Hopefully someone more knowledgeable
      than I am can answer Fred's question.


      On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 9:25 AM, fred <fred_dot_u@...> wrote:
      > I've been getting great assistance with my Gizmo EV from a fellow Gizmo owner. He has a circuit for his Sevcon controller which triggers full-on regen when the normally-closed circuit is opened. There is a 1K resistor in this circuit. In the circuit diagram, what appears to be the no-regen position, the line shorts through the 1K resistor from B- on the controller to pin 11 on the controller.
      >
      > He is in the testing phase of a replacement circuit that combines throttle and regen, which will be variable, which implies that the controller can handle it. ?I don't want to remove a fully-working system and rewire for a new board, but may purchase one for the future.
      >
      > Since there's a 1K resistor in the shorted circuit in the regen-off position, one must figure that opening that signal line trips the regen full on. ?Would there be a way to put, say, a 5K pot in place of the 1K to get variable regen?
      >
      > I've not been able to find any reference online, other than stuff I've found that goes way over my head.
      >
      > My Gizmo has the same controller and motor and has the regen portion turned off in the programming. It's an easy matter for me to turn it on, as I have the calibrator. I plan to implement full-on regen, just to save on brake pads and brake work, but it would be great to have variable regen.
      >
      > thanks in advance
      >
      >
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >
      >



      --
      David D. Nelson
      http://evalbum.com/1328



      ------------------------------

      Message: 23
      Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 02:33:51 -0600
      From: Morgan LaMoore <morganl@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Two-way radio suggestions for EV racing
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <4230c7190903010033o58d2150r7bcaa8802870ffda@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      > Any advice on which types/brands will/will not work for EV racing?

      I'm also going to recommend Motorola.

      My solar car team has used the same Motorola radios for over a decade;
      we don't have any noise problems using the radios to communicate
      between the solar car and the support vehicles.

      The solar car may use a few orders of magnitude less power than the
      Killacycle, but it's the same kind of noise, and we only had the
      driver radio a few inches from the HV bus cables.


      -Morgan LaMoore



      ------------------------------

      Message: 24
      Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 11:00:30 +0000
      From: Evan Tuer <evan.tuer@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sepex hill climbing
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <cc7432af0903010300j2e03b04frbebdfe90b625c476@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

      On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 11:28 PM, David Dymaxion
      <david_dymaxion@...> wrote:

      > In any case, don't you want to avoid current multiplication when climbing a hill? Since a sepex can (in theory, at least) run the
      > same torque as a series motor without current multiplication (for a range of rpm),

      Not really, "current multiplication" (PWM chopping) gives you more
      flexibility and smoothness of control, for example when starting or
      climbing very steep gradients. It's a benefit, not something to
      avoid.

      > would it be better to run it slower than a series
      > motor up a hill? It's not just an academic question, as my conversion should be mobile in the next few months, and we have
      > some very steep hills here at the home of the 2002 Winter Olympics.

      I'm not really clear on what you're trying to achieve David.. If you
      are running the armature with no current limit (connected directly to
      the pack, with the field controlled by your right foot), and
      intentionally choosing a high gear to climb the hill, this sounds
      exactly like a recipe for cooking the motor. Don't do it!

      You need a certain amount of power to climb a hill at a given speed,
      and if you force the motor to provide it at lower RPM, it will require
      more current to do so. If you have no way of limiting the current,
      something will melt.

      > Yes, many sepex machines are single gear, but mine is going to be 5 speed. I'm hoping to find use for the top 4 gears. :)

      Unless you're trying to obtain very high top speeds, I wouldn't
      bother, leave it in 1st or second. Why do you want to be changing
      gears in an EV anyway! :)



      ------------------------------

      Message: 25
      Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 08:46:50 -0500
      From: "Ray Brooks" <rm250rr@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] Interesting Clutch / Transmissions
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <000a01c99a74$2cc52050$6401a8c0@SOS>
      Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
      reply-type=original

      Do a google search on Bert or Brinn transmissions. Something similar would
      be an interesting component for EV use. The problem [ for Ev use ] with
      these racing transmissions is that the gears are straight cut and very
      noisy. I also don't know if the ratio spread is suitable for EV use , most
      are 1.8 and 1.1 .

      These transmissions are basic 2 speeds forward plus reverse manual gearboxes
      with a small diameter, multi plate, internal wet clutch similar to a clutch
      pack from an automatic tranny. The internal clutch is plumbed to a hyd
      clutch pedal assy.

      There is one design intended for 'East Coast Modifieds' that is very short
      in OAL and has a short input shaft. This one looks like it would be most
      applicable to an EV.
      The input shaft fits a small dia internally splined adaptor that bolts to
      the ICE crank flange. Similar adaptors are already in EV use for clutchless
      conversions.

      The prices for these trannies is surprisingly cheap. Maybe the gear noise
      could be thought of as a safety factor for pedestrians :-)

      Ray





      ------------------------------

      Message: 26
      Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 06:08:41 -0800 (PST)
      From: Jack Rickard <mjrickard@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controllers: LogiSystems vs Curtis
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <22273306.post@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii




      David Roden-3 wrote:
      >
      >
      >>
      >> You are very fortunate I didn't buy the Zilla design from Otmar. I
      >> actually
      >> thought about it. The good news is they would be very available by now.
      >> The
      >> bad news is they would be $6500 per. You could have one next day, -
      >> there
      >> would be no "waiting list". But that would be because it was priced to
      >> make
      >> the list go away.
      >
      > I'm sure this will make some folks on the EVDL see red; they'll accuse you
      > of profiteering. But for better or for worse, that's the way our system
      > is
      > set up. I think there was a time when at least some newly introduced
      > products were priced according to what they cost to produce. But that's
      > not
      > the case today. New products now are almost universally priced according
      > to
      > what the potential customer will pay.
      >
      > A manufacturer (or would-be manufacturer) considering a new product
      > conducts
      > market research to determine what the demand for it is, and what customers
      > are willing to pay. If (unit price they'll pay) >= ((development costs /
      > demand) + cost per unit to produce + desired profit per unit), then the
      > gadget gets made. If not, the idea gets shelved.
      >
      > In reality it's a bit more complex; our "free market" really isn't.
      > External forces, such as legislation and incentives, almost always enter
      > the
      > picture. Some products generate image ("corporate conscience"), which can
      > be quantified in dollars and might balance an otherwise unbalanced
      > equation
      > (e.g. "greenish" cars such as Toyota Prius, VW Lupo TDI, etc.). A
      > manufacturer with vision might have data suggesting that demand for a
      > product might increase in the future, making it prudent to develop it now
      > to
      > have it ready (while investors and stockholders push back because they
      > want
      > their ROI now).
      >

      That's much closer. It has nothing to do with profiteering. It has to do
      with managing growth. I started a newsletter in 1987 that grew into a
      magazine, directory, and trade show over the course of 12 years. It grew
      from one guy and an $80 investment to 22 employees and $15 million per year
      in revenues during that period.

      And the magazine was ABOUT small entreprenurial companies, usually in
      software but some hardware, and their adventures. I'm not guessing here.
      If you have a waiting list, you do NOT have a process problem, you have a
      pricing problem.

      I can't tell you how many times I ran across people with a great idea and
      instant demand, in some cases passion, for a product. They would grow
      themselves entirely out of cash and resource, have hundreds of customers
      screaming into the phone with heart rending tales of how grandma would
      suffer in agony and ultimately die if they didn't get the product by
      tomorrrow, and have no clue what the problem was. I would normally hear
      from them the afternoon they were shutting the doors.

      The problem is growth management, and it can be a very complex problem. You
      go through phases, reach plateaus, and sometimes outgrow upgrades to the
      process before they are fully installed and operational.

      But while the problem can be a bit complex, the solution is very elegant.
      You simply reprice the product. First, it's not about profits, it's usually
      about survival. A higher margin DOES give you more room to maneuver and can
      make up for a lot of sins.

      But more importantly, it makes some of the customers go away. There is a
      price benefit curve for everyone. As price declines, you hit the curve for
      a wider group of people. But the converse is true as well, as price goes
      up, you hit the curve for a smaller group of people.

      For this reason, it's failrly easy to trim a waiting list right smartly.

      What most people find is that in doing so, a third benefit emerges. A lot
      of the support issues decline smartly. They'll find that their "problem"
      customers are kind of clustered at the lower end of the price/benefit curve.

      When you reduce all the complexities of introducing a successful new
      product, developing a production process, adding employees, dealing with
      government and legal issues, etc. etc. ad nauseum, you find that in the
      end, it is pretty simple; your customers price the product. And if you have
      a waiting list, you have mispriced it - period. If you have constant
      interest and contacts, but no sales, you have also mispriced it. The term
      "what the market will bear" is accurate, but rather misses the point. It
      isn't how deeply I can screw the unsuspecting public. It's how closely I
      can match what I can do with the available resources to meet the public
      need. And if I screw up, I won't be able to meet any of it.

      And it has nothing to do with the cost of parts, your labor, made in
      America, or profiteering. Those are all Democratic National Party concepts
      that have nothing to do with growing a successful business. When you see
      those discussions, you are hearing from people who have clearly never been a
      player, in any industry, anywhere. They will bleat plaintively about the
      high cost of things, knowing the cost of everything, and the value of
      nothing. And they never change the tune. It's like "The Sound of Music"
      only Julie Andrews only knows one note - Mi, Mi, Mi, Mi. Picture 9 kids
      around a bridge in Austria, singing Mi, Mi, Mi, Mi, endlessly with no Do or
      Re.

      What you are hearing is a cost/benefit curve without a match. They need a
      benefit, and can't find a solution at a cost that they can resolve. Someone
      will come along and fill it eventually if it is a common enough formula.
      And so you wind up with an array of products and prices, all in more or less
      the same area. In a mature EV market, there will be low cost controllers,
      medium cost controllers, and high cost controllers, eventually reflecting
      quality, workmanship, and demand.

      EVs are an infant emerging area, though one I think will grow phenomenally
      over the next few years. Controllers, chargers, DC-DC converters,
      batteries, battery management are all needful areas. But if you try to
      develop catering to the plaintive wails of grief from the unwashed, it won't
      work.

      In developing markets with newish products, the most common cost element
      overlooked is support and education. You often have to educate your
      customers to buy the thing at all, it takes a lot of resource to reach the
      1/2 of 1 per cent that might be interested. But then, while everyone knows
      what to expect of a vacuum cleaner, how to work it basically, and what it is
      supposed to do, this is not necessarily the case with a battery charger and
      an EV instrumentation system. I've spent a lifetime as an electrical
      engineer, software developer and technical writer, and Victor can atttest
      that I've had a few questions. I've blown up one of his boards (well Brian
      did), have miswired stuff (dyslexics - UNTIE!), and have struggled
      heroically with which side of a magnet is actually the SOUTH pole. I have
      related my Kelly story earlier in this thread. I thought it WAS working....
      etc. etc.

      So even with e-mail, it is a cost. If you are receiving 150 e-mails a day,
      it's a big cost.

      The discussion with Otmar was very brief. I didn't really want to be in the
      manufacturing business, and I don't think he really wants to be out of it.
      He would like a white knight to make all the icky parts go away. I don't
      blame him. I've been there. It won't work. But I've been there.

      More than you wanted to hear?????

      Jack Rickard
      --
      View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Controllers%3A-LogiSystems-vs-Curtis-tp22218073p22273306.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 27
      Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 09:28:56 -0500
      From: lawlessind@...
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] variable regen with Sevcon Sepex?
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <8CB6891305BFF6E-818-2012@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed

      David,

      The 48 volt Sevcons that I use can be programmed to accept a variable
      voltage on pin 10 for accel, and a variable voltage on pin 11 for
      variable regen. Both of these ranges are adjustable. Further, the
      controller can be programmed to place precedent on either drive or
      braking. This allows the unit to match most desired drive
      configurations. While my controllers are for PM and yours is for
      Sepex, I would surmise that the input setups and programming maps are
      similar. Do you have a Sevcon factory manual?

      Shawn Lawless


      -----Original Message-----
      From: David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Sent: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 2:55 am
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] variable regen with Sevcon Sepex?



      The controller Fred is talking about is a 48V Sevcon SepEx PP745. The
      1K resistor he is talking about is connected to pin 11 on connector B
      of the controller. The manual says this has a range of 3.5-0V. The
      regen circuit which came on my Gizmo is posted on my blog at
      http://2003gizmo.blogspot.com/ . Hopefully someone more knowledgeable
      than I am can answer Fred's question.


      On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 9:25 AM, fred <fred_dot_u@...> wrote:
      > I've been getting great assistance with my Gizmo EV from a fellow
      Gizmo owner.
      He has a circuit for his Sevcon controller which triggers full-on regen
      when the
      normally-closed circuit is opened. There is a 1K resistor
      in this
      circuit. In
      the circuit diagram, what appears to be the no-regen position, the line
      shorts
      through the 1K resistor from B- on the controller to pin 11 on the
      controller.
      >
      > He is in the testing phase of a replacement circuit that combines
      throttle and
      regen, which will be variable, which implies that the controller can
      handle it.
      ?I don't want to remove a fully-working system and rewire for a new
      board, but
      may purchase one for the future.
      >
      > Since there's a 1K resistor in the shorted circuit in the regen-off
      position,
      one must figure that opening that signal line trips the regen full on.
      ?Would
      there be a way to put, say, a 5K pot in place of the 1K to get variable
      regen?
      >
      > I've not been able to find any reference online, other than stuff
      I've found
      that goes way over my head.
      >
      > My Gizmo has the same controller and motor and has the regen portion
      turned
      off in the programming. It's an easy matter for me to turn it on, as I
      have the
      calibrator. I plan to implement full-on regen, just to save on brake
      pads and
      brake work, but it would be great to have variable regen.
      >
      > thanks in advance
      >
      >
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      > Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      > Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      > Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >
      >




      --
      David D. Nelson
      http://evalbum.com/1328

      _______________________________________________
      General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
      Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
      Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
      Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev




      ------------------------------

      Message: 28
      Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 09:36:35 -0500
      From: Randy Kramer <rhkramer@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV legislation/ rules / incentives
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <200903010936.38033.rhkramer@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      On Saturday 28 February 2009 11:52 pm, Charlie P wrote:
      > Try www.robert c riley .com 3 wheels ,classified motorcycle. I am
      currently
      > building two of them, also in process of building a web site.

      Sorry, don't quite understand your response:

      Did you mean http://rqriley.com? (Google didn't show a robert c riley
      or a robertcriley site that I could find.)

      And were you specifically referring to the page on "Licensing And
      Insuring Homebuilt Vehicles": http://www.rqriley.com/license.htm, or
      something else?

      What change in legislation / rules / incentives are you suggesting?

      Randy Kramer
      --
      I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I created a video
      instead.--with apologies to Cicero, et.al.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 29
      Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 09:50:53 -0500
      From: "Bob Rice" <bobrice@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controllers: LogiSystems vs Curtis Yeah, More!
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <8882D1A0BD224906BBA90963E31D9842@adminwlzisp2uc>
      Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
      reply-type=original


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jack Rickard" <mjrickard@...>
      To: <ev@...>
      Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 9:08 AM
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controllers: LogiSystems vs Curtis


      >
      >
      >
      > David Roden-3 wrote:
      >>
      >>
      >>>
      >>> You are very fortunate I didn't buy the Zilla design from Otmar. I
      >>> actually
      >>> thought about it. The good news is they would be very available by now.
      >>> The
      >>> bad news is they would be $6500 per. You could have one next day, -
      >>> there
      >>> would be no "waiting list". But that would be because it was priced to
      >>> make
      >>> the list go away.
      >>
      >> I'm sure this will make some folks on the EVDL see red; they'll accuse
      >> you
      >> of profiteering. But for better or for worse, that's the way our system
      >> is
      >> set up. I think there was a time when at least some newly introduced
      >> products were priced according to what they cost to produce. But that's
      >> not
      >> the case today. New products now are almost universally priced according
      >> to
      >> what the potential customer will pay.
      >>
      >> A manufacturer (or would-be manufacturer) considering a new product
      >> conducts
      >> market research to determine what the demand for it is, and what
      >> customers
      >> are willing to pay. If (unit price they'll pay) >= ((development costs /
      >> demand) + cost per unit to produce + desired profit per unit), then the
      >> gadget gets made. If not, the idea gets shelved.
      >>
      >> In reality it's a bit more complex; our "free market" really isn't.
      >> External forces, such as legislation and incentives, almost always enter
      >> the
      >> picture. Some products generate image ("corporate conscience"), which
      >> can
      >> be quantified in dollars and might balance an otherwise unbalanced
      >> equation
      >> (e.g. "greenish" cars such as Toyota Prius, VW Lupo TDI, etc.). A
      >> manufacturer with vision might have data suggesting that demand for a
      >> product might increase in the future, making it prudent to develop it now
      >> to
      >> have it ready (while investors and stockholders push back because they
      >> want
      >> their ROI now).
      >>
      >
      > That's much closer. It has nothing to do with profiteering. It has to do
      > with managing growth. I started a newsletter in 1987 that grew into a
      > magazine, directory, and trade show over the course of 12 years. It grew
      > from one guy and an $80 investment to 22 employees and $15 million per
      > year
      > in revenues during that period.
      >
      > And the magazine was ABOUT small entreprenurial companies, usually in
      > software but some hardware, and their adventures. I'm not guessing here.
      > If you have a waiting list, you do NOT have a process problem, you have a
      > pricing problem.
      >
      > I can't tell you how many times I ran across people with a great idea and
      > instant demand, in some cases passion, for a product. They would grow
      > themselves entirely out of cash and resource, have hundreds of customers
      > screaming into the phone with heart rending tales of how grandma would
      > suffer in agony and ultimately die if they didn't get the product by
      > tomorrrow, and have no clue what the problem was. I would normally hear
      > from them the afternoon they were shutting the doors.
      >
      > The problem is growth management, and it can be a very complex problem.
      > You
      > go through phases, reach plateaus, and sometimes outgrow upgrades to the
      > process before they are fully installed and operational.
      >
      > But while the problem can be a bit complex, the solution is very elegant.
      > You simply reprice the product. First, it's not about profits, it's
      > usually
      > about survival. A higher margin DOES give you more room to maneuver and
      > can
      > make up for a lot of sins.
      >
      > But more importantly, it makes some of the customers go away. There is a
      > price benefit curve for everyone. As price declines, you hit the curve
      > for
      > a wider group of people. But the converse is true as well, as price goes
      > up, you hit the curve for a smaller group of people.
      >
      > For this reason, it's failrly easy to trim a waiting list right smartly.
      >
      > What most people find is that in doing so, a third benefit emerges. A lot
      > of the support issues decline smartly. They'll find that their "problem"
      > customers are kind of clustered at the lower end of the price/benefit
      > curve.
      >
      > When you reduce all the complexities of introducing a successful new
      > product, developing a production process, adding employees, dealing with
      > government and legal issues, etc. etc. ad nauseum, you find that in the
      > end, it is pretty simple; your customers price the product. And if you
      > have
      > a waiting list, you have mispriced it - period. If you have constant
      > interest and contacts, but no sales, you have also mispriced it. The term
      > "what the market will bear" is accurate, but rather misses the point. It
      > isn't how deeply I can screw the unsuspecting public. It's how closely I
      > can match what I can do with the available resources to meet the public
      > need. And if I screw up, I won't be able to meet any of it.
      >
      > And it has nothing to do with the cost of parts, your labor, made in
      > America, or profiteering. Those are all Democratic National Party
      > concepts
      > that have nothing to do with growing a successful business. When you see
      > those discussions, you are hearing from people who have clearly never been
      > a
      > player, in any industry, anywhere. They will bleat plaintively about the
      > high cost of things, knowing the cost of everything, and the value of
      > nothing. And they never change the tune. It's like "The Sound of Music"
      > only Julie Andrews only knows one note - Mi, Mi, Mi, Mi. Picture 9 kids
      > around a bridge in Austria, singing Mi, Mi, Mi, Mi, endlessly with no Do
      > or
      > Re.
      >
      > What you are hearing is a cost/benefit curve without a match. They need a
      > benefit, and can't find a solution at a cost that they can resolve.
      > Someone
      > will come along and fill it eventually if it is a common enough formula.
      > And so you wind up with an array of products and prices, all in more or
      > less
      > the same area. In a mature EV market, there will be low cost controllers,
      > medium cost controllers, and high cost controllers, eventually reflecting
      > quality, workmanship, and demand.
      >
      > EVs are an infant emerging area, though one I think will grow phenomenally
      > over the next few years. Controllers, chargers, DC-DC converters,
      > batteries, battery management are all needful areas. But if you try to
      > develop catering to the plaintive wails of grief from the unwashed, it
      > won't
      > work.
      >
      > In developing markets with newish products, the most common cost element
      > overlooked is support and education. You often have to educate your
      > customers to buy the thing at all, it takes a lot of resource to reach the
      > 1/2 of 1 per cent that might be interested. But then, while everyone
      > knows
      > what to expect of a vacuum cleaner, how to work it basically, and what it
      > is
      > supposed to do, this is not necessarily the case with a battery charger
      > and
      > an EV instrumentation system. I've spent a lifetime as an electrical
      > engineer, software developer and technical writer, and Victor can atttest
      > that I've had a few questions. I've blown up one of his boards (well
      > Brian
      > did), have miswired stuff (dyslexics - UNTIE!), and have struggled
      > heroically with which side of a magnet is actually the SOUTH pole. I have
      > related my Kelly story earlier in this thread. I thought it WAS
      > working....
      > etc. etc.
      >
      > So even with e-mail, it is a cost. If you are receiving 150 e-mails a
      > day,
      > it's a big cost.
      >
      > The discussion with Otmar was very brief. I didn't really want to be in
      > the
      > manufacturing business, and I don't think he really wants to be out of it.
      > He would like a white knight to make all the icky parts go away. I don't
      > blame him. I've been there. It won't work. But I've been there.
      >
      > More than you wanted to hear?????
      >
      > Jack Rickard
      > -- Hi Jack an' EVerybody;

      No Jack, I wanna hear it! A bit of reality here, in all the endless
      threads about EV Stuff.Your telling it like it IS in the Real World!Oh I
      don't really LIKE it. But it is reality. We all pretty much know EV's are a
      rather expensive hobby, like boats, gambling, women, drinking, model, or
      REAL Railroading,(priced out an Acela AND the trak ya need to do 200 MPH,
      lately?) on and on! So, we drive out talk, showing IF a guy with a one car
      garage can cobble together a car that does most of his transportation needs,
      or SOMEBODY;Industry? Capitalism at it's best? can actually build the same
      for the Rest of Us?

      Otmar and guyz like him do this as a labor of love. I 'm afraid he isn't
      about to retire to a 50 room mansion on the OR. coast with his own airstrip,
      yacht dock, etc.Wayland, Rudman, and others I've missed?Just day job guyz
      TRYING toi set an example for Sheeple and Industry to pick up on? IF EVERY
      US-ian Shee
      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
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