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EV Digest, Vol 9, Issue 30

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      Today's Topics:

      1. Re: Shunt Regulator Know-how (Joe Smalley)
      2. UK TS Bulk purchase closing 30/04/2008 (Peter Perkins)
      3. Re: Optimum speed for minimum Wh/Mile (was: Physics) (Evan Tuer)
      4. Re: Glider in hand (2002 Ford Focus ZTS); calling Chris Simon
      (Josh Wyatt)
      5. Re: Planet Green looking for EV racers to take on ICE
      vehicles (dave cover)
      6. Rectification - What's wrong? (Steven **)
      7. Re: Using Automatic transmissions (was no subject message)
      (Randall Van Engen)
      8. ATTENTION ALL NEDRA MEMBERS !!! (lawlessind@...)
      9. Re: Direct drive, cooling etc (SteveS)
      10. Re: C-car 6hp GE motor arcing. (jerryd)
      11. Re: Direct drive, cooling etc (Chuck Homic)
      12. Re: Planet Green looking for EV racers to take on ICE
      vehicles (Chuck Homic)
      13. Re: Rectification - What's wrong? (SteveS)
      14. Re: Direct drive, cooling etc (SteveS)
      15. Re: Using Automatic transmissions (was no subject message)
      (Roland Wiench)
      16. Re: Direct drive, cooling etc (Peter VanDerWal)
      17. Glider with a plus (mario)
      18. Re: Rectification - What's wrong? (Peter VanDerWal)
      19. Re: Rectification - What's wrong? (Steven **)
      20. Filtering rectified AC (Steven **)
      21. Adapter welding prep (David Dymaxion)
      22. Re: Rectification - What's wrong? (EVDL Administrator)
      23. Re: Rectification - What's wrong? (SteveS)
      24. Re: Direct drive, cooling etc (storm connors)
      25. Re: Ammeter to shunt wiring (storm connors)
      26. Re: Rectification - What's wrong? (Zeke Yewdall)
      27. Re: compostie battery box (Lee Hart)
      28. Re: Fiel d Weakening Experiment for Speed Increase (48v
      CitiCar) (Lee Hart)
      29. Re: Direct drive, cooling etc (SteveS)
      30. Re: Rectification - What's wrong? (Zeke Yewdall)
      31. Re: Ammeter to shunt wiring (Zeke Yewdall)


      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Message: 1
      Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 22:42:45 -0700
      From: "Joe Smalley" <joes@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Shunt Regulator Know-how
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <002801c89acd$cb5cf820$6601a8c0@cl3036596a>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      Bill;

      That is an oversimplification of using the device WITHOUT a voltage divider
      on the REF input.

      The way it actually works is the voltage on the REF input controls the
      current on the CATHODE input.

      The higher the voltage on the REF input, the higher the current at the
      CATHODE input.

      The TL431 lists this ratio as a resistance:

      ZKA= (Change in input voltage at REF)/(Change in input current at CATHODE)

      This is typically 0.2 ohms according the data sheet.

      Therefore for a change of 10 milliamps at CATHODE, the REF input will have
      changed 2 millivolts.

      Joe Smalley
      Rural Kitsap County WA
      Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
      NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
      joes@...

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Bill Dennis" <wjdennis@...>
      To: <ac@...>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
      <ev@...>
      Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 6:17 PM
      Subject: [EVDL] Shunt Regulator Know-how


      > With the recent posts about adjustable shunt regulars, I think I've
      > realized that I really don't understand how they work. I've reread the
      > LM431 datasheet multiple times, but I'm not sure what it's telling me.
      > Can someone give me a quick education? I thought it worked like this:
      >
      > 1) If the ref input voltage is below 2.5V, then the shunt regulator
      > looks like an open switch
      > 2) If the ref input voltage is above 2.5V, then the voltage at the
      > cathode equals the ref input voltage
      >
      > Thanks.
      >
      > Bill Dennis
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > For subscription options, see
      > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



      ------------------------------

      Message: 2
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:59:39 -0700 (PDT)
      From: Peter Perkins <peter@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] UK TS Bulk purchase closing 30/04/2008
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <16604148.post@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


      I'm off on hols now for a couple of weeks, I will monitor the BVS forum
      Thunder Sky cells bulk purchase thread but may not be able to reply until I
      get back.

      http://www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010

      I ask in the meantime that all interested parties finalise their cell
      requirements and add them to the BVS forum thread asap.

      There will be no extension to the time for this order, I will forward
      the details to Reap on 01/05/08 to obtain an official quote from TS in
      due course.

      If you aren't in by then, you will be out!!

      Once we have an official quote, assuming it is acceptable, it will be
      time to stump up the money by bank transfer.
      Exact details about that will be sent to those participating.

      Peter
      --
      View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/UK-TS-Bulk-purchase-closing-30-04-2008-tp16604148p16604148.html
      Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 3
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:32:22 +0100
      From: "Evan Tuer" <evan.tuer@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optimum speed for minimum Wh/Mile (was: Physics)
      To: evdl@..., "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
      <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <cc7432af0804100332v7914daf5vdf19460b0e4b1b8c@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

      On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 8:42 AM, Peter VanDerWal <evdl@...> wrote:

      > > > Hmm, probably somewhere around 5-10 mph
      > >
      > > I have a real-time wh/mile readout in my cars, and the consumption is
      > > noticeably higher at 20mph than at 30mph. The cause, I think, is that
      > > there are some losses which are relatively constant (rolling
      > > resistance mainly) as well as the 12V loads and so on. When you go
      > > very slowly, these don't decrease so the consumption per mile gets
      > > worse.
      > > Also, I suppose the motor efficiency is generally poorer at very low
      > > power, at least with a brushed DC motor.
      > >
      > > It will depend on the car though, of course.
      >
      > Sure, but the question was about the absolute maximum range, so you have
      > to take peukert into account as well.
      >

      True, mine has nicad batteries, so I don't take that into account.

      Will that be a significant factor anyway with flooded lead, when we
      are talking about fairly low power levels, with the speed below 40mph?
      The difference in loss of capacity due to Peukert's exponent between
      3 and 4kW on a large pack might be trivial compared to the increased
      distance achieved.

      As I say, it will depend on the car. It is very difficult to predict
      anyway, which is why I was giving a data point.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 4
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:54:26 -0400
      From: Josh Wyatt <josh.wyatt@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Glider in hand (2002 Ford Focus ZTS); calling
      Chris Simon
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>,
      wguinon@..., jm_silverman@..., Chris Simon
      <chsimon@...>
      Message-ID: <47FDFFF2.3060705@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed

      [resending to list, et al]
      Chris,

      Thank you for all the excellent information. I'm afraid you're a bit ahead of me in the game so far. This car looks like a nearly ideal candidate for conversion. Since I bought it earlier this week, I've driven it to work a few times to get a feel for the vehicle and learn its quirks and strengths. I can tell for sure it has much lower rolling resistance that either my '94 S10 pickup (5 speed), or my '96 Camaro Z28 (6 speed). Time will tell on fuel economy, which I feel is a good anecdotal indicator of future EV efficiency and low wh/mile.

      I am awaiting the factory service manual for the car, bought it on eBay earlier this week, and I just put my order in for the 2002 Focus Wiring diagram Manual. I have had sporadic luck with the Haynes and Chiltons series (apparently more or less the same publication, now) on other vehicles, and although I might get one for this car if I can find it cheap, I've really been disappointed with them on the other cars I own.

      You are correct that I have the Zetec 2.0, but I am unsure of the transmission just yet. I cannot imagine it would be any different than your MTX75. If your efforts look like a success working with the machinist, I will definitely be interested in getting a second one made. Are you going for a clutchless design? In the Ampmobiles conversion workshop I attended in February, we converted a 1979 Fiat spider, and went clutchless - that seems like the way to go for a lightweight vehicle and would be my preference for this conversion.

      My weakest knowledge domain is probably the adapter plate and coupler fabrication. I have some knowledge of all that it takes in terms of measurements, and have seen it done, etc, but I have no machining background or indeed even any tools to, say, cut 1/2" plate aluminum. So, I'm sure I'll be at the mercy of the machinist on this.

      My goals for this conversion are:
      1. Setting a good example for my 2.5 year old daughter.
      2. Enjoying the "I built it myself" philosophy
      3. Driving something well-designed, efficient, and optimized
      4. Keep all safety equipment intact and operational (airbags, ABS, etc)
      5. Document the process, and
      6. Sell it in a year or so, so that I can apply all the "lessons learned" to the next, ultimate EV

      Right now, I am planning on building my own controller and probably charger. Probably both will be micro controlled.

      Have you done any planning on battery layout? I see on your evalbum page that you're shooting for 120 volts in Trojan T-875. I had been loosely thinking of 120 volts from T-125 or T-145, for the range and shallower DOD (like you, I have about a 26 mile round-trip daily commute). Of course I have not priced these batteries, so upfront economics hasn't played into it just yet... And of course I have to figure out where to put them all.

      I see I am already well behind - next step is to get a blog going to capture everything...

      Thanks,
      Josh, in beautiful Raleigh, NC



      Chris Simon wrote:
      > Josh,
      >
      > Welcome to the Focus EV club! It looks like, you, Walter Guinon up in Maine, and myself are
      > the charter members. Where are you located? I've been at the conversion for less than two
      > weeks, and this is my first, so I'm no expert. Here's what I know.
      >
      > Buy yourself the "2001 Focus Wiring Diagram Manual by Ford" $37 at www.booksforcars.com and
      > worth it. I also bought a Hayes manual and tried removing the transaxle and engine as it
      > described. (I don't have the car on a lift which complicates things.) In the end I chose
      > to alter some of the steps in the manual and lower both transaxle and engine to the ground,
      > separate them on the ground, then lift the engine back up and out. I did this with the car
      > sitting on 6 jackstands and did the removal job mostly by myself with an engine hoist and
      > chain hoist.
      >
      > Another trick was gettign the driver side drive axle out of the transaxle. I needed to rent
      > a slide hammer (1 day free at the local Checker Auto) and make my own metal strap to get
      > behind the transaxle end. It took several good whacks to get it out.
      >
      > I'm working with Joel Silverman near here get the adapater parts made. We'll take a "spare"
      > Focus MTX75 transaxle (I'm assumign you have a Zetec with the MTX75) to a local machinist to
      > get the adapter plate and flywheel adapter made. This is the part where I have the least
      > knowledge so I'm glad to have Joel and example parts from a different EV to show the
      > machinist. I'll let you know when we get going on that process. Perhaps we can get the
      > machinist to make two copies while he's at it.
      >
      > I'm sure there will be challenges getting all the loose ends of wiring details to play
      > together. I know that the tach and speedo are both controlled by a microprocessor in the
      > dashboard unit, and that the Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) in the transaxle feeds a signal to
      > the Power Control Module (PCM) which in turn feeds the microprocessor. So I'll have to keep
      > the PCM. (I haven't figured out where this is actually located in the vehicle. The Ford
      > wiring book wasn't clear on this.)
      >
      > My email is chsimon at usiwireless dot com.
      >
      > Chris Simon
      > Minneapolis
      > http://www.evalbum.com/1635
      >
      > <<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      > To a pessimist it's half empty,
      > To an optimist it's half full,
      > To an engineer it's twice as large as necessary
      > <<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      >> Message: 11
      >> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:42:50 -0400
      >> From: Josh Wyatt <josh.wyatt@...>
      >> Subject: [EVDL] Glider in hand (2002 Ford Focus ZTS); calling Chris
      >> Simon
      >> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      >>
      >> Well, I just procured the donor vehicle for my conversion.
      >>
      >> It's a 2002 Ford Focus ZTS, 5 speed, only about 90k miles, curb weight about
      >> 2560 lbs, GVWR about 3600 lbs. I am thoroughly excited and am already
      >> catching an EV grin from time to time just thinking about it.
      >>
      >> I see another very similar conversion just began, by Chris Simon:
      >> http://www.evalbum.com/1635
      >>
      >> I'm excited about the numbers posted there. A little more optimistic than I
      >> have been so far.
      >>
      >> Any gotchas, words of wisdom, etc, on this car so far? (beyond the general
      >> conversion wisdom?)
      >>
      >> Thanks,
      >> Josh




      ------------------------------

      Message: 5
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:58:07 -0400
      From: "dave cover" <davecover@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Planet Green looking for EV racers to take on ICE
      vehicles
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <ae3bc37c0804100458k700cf68fga94b03ff553965c1@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      Shawn

      I'm still planing on showing up with my 944, but I doubt I'll be
      setting any records. Chip had expressed some reservations about the
      autocross, is there any further information on that yet? I have a long
      way to travel and it would be great to have both Saturday and Sundays
      events. If so, anyone have a location for the group to meet for dinner
      Saturday?

      On another topic, are there any good campgrounds in the area? Ones
      with clean showers and restrooms?

      Dave Cover

      On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 9:11 PM, <lawlessind@...> wrote:
      > The Discovery Channel show "Planet Green" is looking for EV's to
      > compete head to head with ICE racers in drag and other types of racing.
      > These events will be filmed on site and shown on TV. They are willing
      > to travel nationwide. They will be present at the NEDRA "Power of DC"
      > but are looking for other cool segments. Interested parties can contact
      > me off list.
      >
      > Shawn Lawless
      > NEDRA President
      >
      > lawlessind@...
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > For subscription options, see
      > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >



      ------------------------------

      Message: 6
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:54:22 -0500
      From: "Steven **" <montgoss+electriccar@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] Rectification - What's wrong?
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <abaa3a210804100654p7478982cif536d25947343dbc@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      I'm trying to test the motor controller I just bought (Curtis
      1204-412). I don't have my batteries yet. So, I've rigged a system
      like the typical BadBoy. But it's not working how I would expect.

      I have a variac (autotransformer) set to give me 48 VAC. I verified
      this with my cheapo multimeter. I got a cheap rectifier from
      RadioShack [1] that's rated 50 V and 25 amp. (That should be enough
      for low-power/no-load testing, right?) So, I soldered the 48 VAC to
      two pins of the bridge rectifier that have the wave label. Then I
      soldered another two wires to the + and - terminals. I assumed the
      wave pins were for the AC and it didn't matter which wire went to
      which terminal. And the + and - terminals were the DC. Is that
      right?

      So, I switched my cheapo multimeter to DC and measured the output of
      the rectifier. It's 62.9 VDC. Always. Doesn't matter if I turn the
      variac down to 20 or less VAC. The multimeter still reads 62.9 VDC
      out of the rectifier. Is my multimeter just dumb and reporting the
      frequency (62.9 is pretty close to the 60 Hz of the AC power)? Or is
      there something wrong with my circuit?

      Thanks,
      Steven

      References:
      [1] http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062584



      ------------------------------

      Message: 7
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:07:15 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
      From: Randall Van Engen <rdve@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using Automatic transmissions (was no subject
      message)
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <18452409.1207836436112.JavaMail.root@...>

      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

      Richard,

      I LIKE that idea!!!

      Perhaps even do what some "hypermilers" are doing and put another switch in the mix that will stop the "idling" when you are at a stop light and see that it will remain red for a while, otherwise just default to idle mode much as an ICE would do.

      --Randall
      Concord, NC


      -----Original Message-----
      >From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
      >Sent: Apr 10, 2008 1:45 AM
      >To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      >Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using Automatic transmissions (was no subject message)
      >
      >From: Richard Acuti <dmc650@...>
      >> Well...not necessarily a "con" but this Mercedes probably has an
      >> automatic transmission, so this will make your conversion more
      >> complicated. You basically have 2 choices...
      >>
      >> 1. Get an electric pump to keep the transmission fluid pressure at
      >> the proper level so you can use all of the gears.
      >> 2. Restrict transmission use to "1" and "2".
      >
      >There's a 3rd option; idle the electric motor. Then the transmission and
      >torque converter behave as they were designed. You just have to adjust
      >the potbox so it doesn't quite turn off completely, so it keeps turning
      >at a few hundred RPM even when stopped.
      >
      >The usual assumption is that this will waste a lot of energy. Actually,
      >it's not too bad. An idling electric motor will draw around 1-2 amp from
      >your propulsion pack, which is perhaps 1% or 2% of what the vehicle uses
      >driving down the road at constant speed.
      >
      >--
      >Ring the bells that still can ring
      >Forget the perfect offering
      >There is a crack in everything
      >That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
      >--
      >Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
      >
      >_______________________________________________
      >For subscription options, see
      >http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



      ------------------------------

      Message: 8
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:22:36 -0400
      From: lawlessind@...
      Subject: [EVDL] ATTENTION ALL NEDRA MEMBERS !!!
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <8CA692D7553AD45-F7C-C5D@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


      All NEDRA members:

      2008 NEDRA Membership packs are shipping out today to all 2007 and
      2008 members. Inside you will find:

      NEDRA Membership Card
      NEDRA MEMBER T-shirt
      NEDRA Bumpersticker
      Letter from the NEDRA President

      Please review your contact information on the envelope and notify my
      office if it needs revised/updated. If you no longer wish to
      participate in this group please let me know and we will remove your
      name from the membership roster.

      Thanks you for your participation in NEDRA. We look forward to a
      continuation of a great 2008 racing season

      Sincerely,

      Shawn Lawless
      NEDRA President

      PH: 330-758-9920
      Fax: 330-758-9926
      Email: Shawn@...



      ------------------------------

      Message: 9
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:57:44 -0400
      From: SteveS <stevesgroups@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Direct drive, cooling etc
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <47FE2AE8.4090102@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      I assume because each low-RPM motor is just a higher power (bigger) motor?

      Is there a good way to evaluate motors for low RPM power? I am facing
      somewhat the same problem with my BMW motorcycle conversion. I want to
      direct couple to the driveshaft (which has a 3.36 ration to the rear
      axle). As in the case being discussed it means more low RPM torque is
      required and less max RPM. How does one look at potential motors with
      this in mind? I'm thinking lower voltages since a high RPM isn't needed.
      But how do you evaluate the critical start up and low speed power?

      - SteveS

      Lee Hart wrote:
      > However, total motor weight
      > will be higher without gears. First, because each low-RPM motor will
      > weigh more than its high-RPM counterpart.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 10
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:04:42 -0500
      From: "jerryd" <jerryd@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] C-car 6hp GE motor arcing.
      To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobassoon@...>, Electric Vehicle
      Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <47fe2c8a.341.664b.599355928@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


      Hi Lawrence and All,

      ----- Original Message Follows -----
      From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobassoon@...>
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] C-car 6hp GE motor arcing.
      Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 10:55:33 -0700

      >I have a friend that lost his c car motor brushes(GE 6hp
      >4000rpm class C) running it with the original contactor
      >controller. Due to the arcing and for other newbie reasons
      >he wants to upgrade to a 12hp bolt in soltion for 700
      >dollars. Is there a sepex or other solution like just
      >having the motor refurbished that will work here in hilly
      >San Francisco.(popping in an Altrax) Seems the 6hp might
      >do ok if it had new brushes. I don't have experience with
      >c cars. I do know a lot of people go 72v but with all
      >that battery weight I was thinking regen would be a good
      >idea. Can the orginal 6hp motor take tall hills & 72v
      >operation? Lawrence Rhodes......

      The higher ratio rearend would help in SF. A EC like
      the Altrax will not match the starting power of the
      contactor controller which is more like 800+ amps,
      especially in SF so I wouldn't recommend it.
      If he wants to replace the motor, get one with a
      lower rpm rating as it will have more torque/amp but less
      top speed which could be gotten back with field weakening.
      On mine I had all kinds of the same problems,
      replacing brushes before I finally replaced all the brushes
      and the brush holder at one time. After that I've had no
      problems in the Ewoody running the c car motor in it at much
      higher power levels than a c car does.

      Jerry Dycus


      >
      >_______________________________________________
      >For subscription options, see
      >http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



      ------------------------------

      Message: 11
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:11:11 -0400
      From: Chuck Homic <homic@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Direct drive, cooling etc
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <47FE2E0F.4070004@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      You could keep the transmission and drive the crankshaft end of it?
      I've heard of this being done, but never seen it. (It involves a lot of
      cutting, but I think having the transmission has a lot of advantages.)
      Or, though it would make it less BMW-ey, but you could convert it to
      chain drive, then the world is your oyster w.r.t. gearing. I like
      chains. Thing is, a low RPM motor is always going to be heavier than a
      high RPM motor. (Same for gas engines, why do you think superbikes wind
      up to almost 20,000 rpm?) So gearing down a high-RPM motor just makes a
      lot of sense.

      SteveS wrote:
      > I assume because each low-RPM motor is just a higher power (bigger) motor?
      >
      > Is there a good way to evaluate motors for low RPM power? I am facing
      > somewhat the same problem with my BMW motorcycle conversion. I want to
      > direct couple to the driveshaft (which has a 3.36 ration to the rear
      > axle). As in the case being discussed it means more low RPM torque is
      > required and less max RPM. How does one look at potential motors with
      > this in mind? I'm thinking lower voltages since a high RPM isn't needed.
      > But how do you evaluate the critical start up and low speed power?
      >
      > - SteveS
      >
      > Lee Hart wrote:
      >
      >> However, total motor weight
      >> will be higher without gears. First, because each low-RPM motor will
      >> weigh more than its high-RPM counterpart.
      >>
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > For subscription options, see
      > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >



      ------------------------------

      Message: 12
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:15:02 -0400
      From: Chuck Homic <homic@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Planet Green looking for EV racers to take on ICE
      vehicles
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <47FE2EF6.5090704@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      You'll want the ProEV Electric Imp for the autocross. Is Cliff on this
      list?

      dave cover wrote:
      > Shawn
      >
      > I'm still planing on showing up with my 944, but I doubt I'll be
      > setting any records. Chip had expressed some reservations about the
      > autocross, is there any further information on that yet? I have a long
      > way to travel and it would be great to have both Saturday and Sundays
      > events. If so, anyone have a location for the group to meet for dinner
      > Saturday?
      >
      > On another topic, are there any good campgrounds in the area? Ones
      > with clean showers and restrooms?
      >
      > Dave Cover
      >
      > On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 9:11 PM, <lawlessind@...> wrote:
      >
      >> The Discovery Channel show "Planet Green" is looking for EV's to
      >> compete head to head with ICE racers in drag and other types of racing.
      >> These events will be filmed on site and shown on TV. They are willing
      >> to travel nationwide. They will be present at the NEDRA "Power of DC"
      >> but are looking for other cool segments. Interested parties can contact
      >> me off list.
      >>
      >> Shawn Lawless
      >> NEDRA President
      >>
      >> lawlessind@...
      >>
      >> _______________________________________________
      >> For subscription options, see
      >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >>
      >>
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > For subscription options, see
      > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >



      ------------------------------

      Message: 13
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:24:19 -0400
      From: SteveS <stevesgroups@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rectification - What's wrong?
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <47FE3123.6050406@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      First off - I hope you understand that an autotransformer does not
      isolate you from the AC line? That's a really dangerous way to experiment!

      Given that, it sounds like the rectifier is connected right, but the
      voltage rating is way to low for what you are doing. The AC source at
      48V ( I assumed measured with an RMS meter) will have peaks over 60V or
      so. You should have at least a 100V bridge. The output of the bridge is
      rectified AC, not pure DC and though the meter on DC should average it
      out you can't count on it. Why it doesn't vary I don't know offhand.

      Look, I don't know you and what your expertise is, so forgive me if it
      sounds like I'm speaking down to you, but you are playing around with a
      very dangerous setup! The Curtis goes down to 24V right? You should be
      able to do some basic functional tests with a couple of small 12V
      batteries, maybe even 3-9Vs in series.

      - SteveS

      Steven ** wrote:
      > I'm trying to test the motor controller I just bought (Curtis
      > 1204-412). I don't have my batteries yet. So, I've rigged a system
      > like the typical BadBoy. But it's not working how I would expect.
      >
      > I have a variac (autotransformer) set to give me 48 VAC. I verified
      > this with my cheapo multimeter. I got a cheap rectifier from
      > RadioShack [1] that's rated 50 V and 25 amp. (That should be enough
      > for low-power/no-load testing, right?) So, I soldered the 48 VAC to
      > two pins of the bridge rectifier that have the wave label. Then I
      > soldered another two wires to the + and - terminals. I assumed the
      > wave pins were for the AC and it didn't matter which wire went to
      > which terminal. And the + and - terminals were the DC. Is that
      > right?
      >
      > So, I switched my cheapo multimeter to DC and measured the output of
      > the rectifier. It's 62.9 VDC. Always. Doesn't matter if I turn the
      > variac down to 20 or less VAC. The multimeter still reads 62.9 VDC
      > out of the rectifier. Is my multimeter just dumb and reporting the
      > frequency (62.9 is pretty close to the 60 Hz of the AC power)? Or is
      > there something wrong with my circuit?
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Steven
      >
      > References:
      > [1] http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062584
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > For subscription options, see
      > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >
      >
      >



      ------------------------------

      Message: 14
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:40:19 -0400
      From: SteveS <stevesgroups@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Direct drive, cooling etc
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <47FE34E3.1030400@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      Thanks for the input Chuck. I don't want to hijack the thread but let
      me answer, and get back to low RPM motors.

      Actually at the moment I do have a transmission, as the motor I had to
      play with was too weak for direct drive. But the tranny takes up a lot
      of space and chain drive would add a lot of noise. It is nice and quiet
      now.

      Besides I really like the idea of the direct drive. And in my case it's
      not really 'direct' as I do have the 3.36 rear end. It would be like
      hooking up to the differential on a car. I don't mind a bigger, heavier
      motor (to a point), as it will take up less space and MAYBE less weight
      than a smaller motor and tranny. The question is how much bigger? Are
      there motors out there that are better at low RPMs?

      The ultimate solution in my mind that would work for me (and possibly
      the original poster) would be some kind of in-line 2-speed gearbox with,
      say a 4:1 and 1:1 ratios, something like the old bicycle three speed
      hubs. The low gear would be perfect for start up and city driving, then
      switch to direct at speed. I think it could be small and simple.

      - SteveS

      Chuck Homic wrote:
      > You could keep the transmission and drive the crankshaft end of it?
      > I've heard of this being done, but never seen it. (It involves a lot of
      > cutting, but I think having the transmission has a lot of advantages.)
      > Or, though it would make it less BMW-ey, but you could convert it to
      > chain drive, then the world is your oyster w.r.t. gearing. I like
      > chains. Thing is, a low RPM motor is always going to be heavier than a
      > high RPM motor. (Same for gas engines, why do you think superbikes wind
      > up to almost 20,000 rpm?) So gearing down a high-RPM motor just makes a
      > lot of sense.
      >
      > SteveS wrote:
      >
      >> I assume because each low-RPM motor is just a higher power (bigger) motor?
      >>
      >> Is there a good way to evaluate motors for low RPM power? I am facing
      >> somewhat the same problem with my BMW motorcycle conversion. I want to
      >> direct couple to the driveshaft (which has a 3.36 ration to the rear
      >> axle). As in the case being discussed it means more low RPM torque is
      >> required and less max RPM. How does one look at potential motors with
      >> this in mind? I'm thinking lower voltages since a high RPM isn't needed.
      >> But how do you evaluate the critical start up and low speed power?
      >>
      >> - SteveS
      >>
      >> Lee Hart wrote:
      >>
      >>
      >>> However, total motor weight
      >>> will be higher without gears. First, because each low-RPM motor will
      >>> weigh more than its high-RPM counterpart.
      >>>
      >>>
      >> _______________________________________________
      >> For subscription options, see
      >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >>
      >>
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > For subscription options, see
      > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >
      >
      >



      ------------------------------

      Message: 15
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:43:01 -0600
      From: "Roland Wiench" <ev_7@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using Automatic transmissions (was no subject
      message)
      To: "Randall Van Engen" <rdve@...>, "Electric Vehicle
      Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <BAY114-DAV218227246A844345D97D7BEEC0@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

      You can time delay the idle to go off after you release the accelerator
      linkage.

      My 5 kohm accelerator pot has another 5 kohm pot in series with it. To idle
      the motor, Just adjust the second pot to the rpm you want.

      I use a on dash selector switch which is label IDLE CONTROL that I can chose
      IDLE - ON - AUTO mode. In the IDLE mode, it switches in the 2nd pot in
      series with the accelerator pot to set the idle to the preset motor rpm.

      In the ON position, it switches out the second pot to stop the idle and the
      AUTO mode, it inserts a OFF-DELAY relay in the second pot circuit, so you
      can delay the idle time.

      I use this same method for my electric power steering. At first I had my
      electric power steering on all the time. I found even with this heavy EV, I
      do not need it for straight line driving, but in making a 90 degree turn,
      then I switch it on at that time.

      Finding that I do not need the power steering on anytime the steering wheel
      is turn 40 degrees from the center position, So I JB Weld two 1/2 NEOMAGNETS
      on a flat area of the steering column shaft. A magnetic sensor reed switch
      is use to pick up the position on the steering shaft which activates a
      Off-Delay relay, that controls the power steering contactor.

      Use a another selector switch to control this circuit.

      I find it is best to leave it in the time delay mode, as where all you have
      to do is turn off the ignition switch and both these circuits will shut
      down. If you leave the idle control set for idle, and then when you tried
      to start up EV, the controller will not allow you to do so, until the pot
      resistance is set to about 0 ohms.

      One time after I came home and try to start up the EV the next day, it would
      not start up. I check the 12 volt voltage source, check all the fuses,
      check the main battery pack, tighten all the connections, check the Zilla
      controller. Then I recycle all the control switches I have, and found that
      I forgot to take the idle control off the line.

      This makes a good anti-theft system.

      Roland



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Randall Van Engen" <rdve@...>
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 8:07 AM
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using Automatic transmissions (was no subject message)


      > Richard,
      >
      > I LIKE that idea!!!
      >
      > Perhaps even do what some "hypermilers" are doing and put another switch
      > in the mix that will stop the "idling" when you are at a stop light and
      > see that it will remain red for a while, otherwise just default to idle
      > mode much as an ICE would do.
      >
      > --Randall
      > Concord, NC
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > >From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
      > >Sent: Apr 10, 2008 1:45 AM
      > >To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      > >Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using Automatic transmissions (was no subject
      > >message)
      > >
      > >From: Richard Acuti <dmc650@...>
      > >> Well...not necessarily a "con" but this Mercedes probably has an
      > >> automatic transmission, so this will make your conversion more
      > >> complicated. You basically have 2 choices...
      > >>
      > >> 1. Get an electric pump to keep the transmission fluid pressure at
      > >> the proper level so you can use all of the gears.
      > >> 2. Restrict transmission use to "1" and "2".
      > >
      > >There's a 3rd option; idle the electric motor. Then the transmission and
      > >torque converter behave as they were designed. You just have to adjust
      > >the potbox so it doesn't quite turn off completely, so it keeps turning
      > >at a few hundred RPM even when stopped.
      > >
      > >The usual assumption is that this will waste a lot of energy. Actually,
      > >it's not too bad. An idling electric motor will draw around 1-2 amp from
      > >your propulsion pack, which is perhaps 1% or 2% of what the vehicle uses
      > >driving down the road at constant speed.
      > >
      > >--
      > >Ring the bells that still can ring
      > >Forget the perfect offering
      > >There is a crack in everything
      > >That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
      > >--
      > >Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
      > >
      > >_______________________________________________
      > >For subscription options, see
      > >http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > For subscription options, see
      > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >



      ------------------------------

      Message: 16
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 02:49:33 -0600 (MDT)
      From: "Peter VanDerWal" <evdl@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Direct drive, cooling etc
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <2114.209.22.106.44.1207817373.squirrel@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

      > I assume because each low-RPM motor is just a higher power (bigger) motor?
      >

      You're not paying attention :)
      To get THE SAME POWER at lower RPM requires a bigger motor, this is NOT
      because it's a more powerful motor (it's the same power) it's because it
      needs to produce more torque.

      Power = RPM * Torque
      If you want to keep power the same and reduce RPM, then you have to
      increase torque.

      I'm sure you remeber learning about levers in school. If you want to lift
      a given weight, it takes less strength if you have a longer lever, or with
      the same strength you can lift a heavier object.
      You can think of torque as a shaft with a lever sticking out of it. To
      get more torque you either have to press harder (more force) on the lever
      or get a longer lever.
      The force is related to the strength of the magnetic fields interacting,
      stronger fields = more force.

      At a given radius, you are limited to how strong a field you can get in
      there by either how much copper windings you can fit or how powerful the
      permanent magnets are.

      So the easiest way to get more torque is to go with a larger radius
      (longer lever) this gives you two advantages, longer lever (obviously)
      plus more area to cram in copper/magnets (stronger field)

      The down side is that now we have a larger radius. This requires more
      steel for the case and the rotor. It also needs to be stronger because it
      has more torque AND because larger diameters are affected more by
      centrifugal force (the motor wants to tear itself appart when spinning).

      Being larger doesn't automatically mean it's more powerful, because the
      larger diameter limits the maximum RPM (because centrifugal force).

      So you get the same power (RPM * Torque) but it's a bigger, heavier motor.

      P.S. This is one of the reasons you can get model airplane motors that
      produce 1hp-2hp and fit in the palm of your hand. They spin at
      50,000-60,000 rpm

      > Is there a good way to evaluate motors for low RPM power? I am facing
      > somewhat the same problem with my BMW motorcycle conversion. I want to
      > direct couple to the driveshaft (which has a 3.36 ration to the rear
      > axle). As in the case being discussed it means more low RPM torque is
      > required and less max RPM. How does one look at potential motors with
      > this in mind? I'm thinking lower voltages since a high RPM isn't needed.

      No, while a given motor will spin faster at a higher voltage, there is no
      direct link between volts and rpms when talking about different motors.
      You can have a 3V motor with a max of 12,000,000 RPM and a 600V motor with
      a max of 1,000 rpm. The RPM vs volts relationship of a motor is variable
      and depends on the design.

      If you want a low RPM motor, look for a low RPM motor.
      It's probably better to figure out how many batteries you can fit on the
      bike and then add up what the voltage will be for those batteries, and
      then shop for a motor that will work at that voltage.
      > But how do you evaluate the critical start up and low speed power?
      >
      > - SteveS
      >
      > Lee Hart wrote:
      >> However, total motor weight
      >> will be higher without gears. First, because each low-RPM motor will
      >> weigh more than its high-RPM counterpart.
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > For subscription options, see
      > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >




      ------------------------------

      Message: 17
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:54:35 -0700 (PDT)
      From: mario <zetaomega2000@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] Glider with a plus
      To: ev@...
      Message-ID: <878461.2592.qm@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

      Check out this Arizona glider and scooter package deal.

      http://phoenix.craigslist.org/car/636610669.html

      mario


      ------------------------------

      Message: 18
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 02:59:20 -0600 (MDT)
      From: "Peter VanDerWal" <evdl@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rectification - What's wrong?
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <2198.209.22.106.44.1207817960.squirrel@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

      I'm going to second that. What you're trying to do sounds like a good way
      to toast an expensive controller.

      >
      > Look, I don't know you and what your expertise is, so forgive me if it
      > sounds like I'm speaking down to you, but you are playing around with a
      > very dangerous setup! The Curtis goes down to 24V right? You should be
      > able to do some basic functional tests with a couple of small 12V
      > batteries, maybe even 3-9Vs in series.
      >
      > - SteveS
      >
      > Steven ** wrote:
      >> I'm trying to test the motor controller I just bought (Curtis
      >> 1204-412). I don't have my batteries yet. So, I've rigged a system
      >> like the typical BadBoy. But it's not working how I would expect.
      >>
      >> I have a variac (autotransformer) set to give me 48 VAC. I verified
      >> this with my cheapo multimeter. I got a cheap rectifier from
      >> RadioShack [1] that's rated 50 V and 25 amp. (That should be enough
      >> for low-power/no-load testing, right?) So, I soldered the 48 VAC to
      >> two pins of the bridge rectifier that have the wave label. Then I
      >> soldered another two wires to the + and - terminals. I assumed the
      >> wave pins were for the AC and it didn't matter which wire went to
      >> which terminal. And the + and - terminals were the DC. Is that
      >> right?
      >>
      >> So, I switched my cheapo multimeter to DC and measured the output of
      >> the rectifier. It's 62.9 VDC. Always. Doesn't matter if I turn the
      >> variac down to 20 or less VAC. The multimeter still reads 62.9 VDC
      >> out of the rectifier. Is my multimeter just dumb and reporting the
      >> frequency (62.9 is pretty close to the 60 Hz of the AC power)? Or is
      >> there something wrong with my circuit?
      >>
      >> Thanks,
      >> Steven
      >>
      >> References:
      >> [1] http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062584
      >>
      >> _______________________________________________
      >> For subscription options, see
      >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > For subscription options, see
      > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >




      ------------------------------

      Message: 19
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:05:11 -0500
      From: "Steven **" <montgoss+electriccar@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rectification - What's wrong?
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <abaa3a210804100905t442aad2dge8d1a304fdbff272@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 10:24 AM, SteveS <stevesgroups@...> wrote:
      > First off - I hope you understand that an autotransformer does not
      > isolate you from the AC line? That's a really dangerous way to experiment!

      What makes that so dangerous?

      > Given that, it sounds like the rectifier is connected right, but the
      > voltage rating is way to low for what you are doing. The AC source at
      > 48V ( I assumed measured with an RMS meter) will have peaks over 60V or
      > so. You should have at least a 100V bridge.

      Why is a rectifier rated at 50PIV not enough for 48VAC? I can do 36 V
      instead (the controller is rated 36 - 48 V). Except that lowering the
      variac to 36 VAC doesn't have any effect on the voltage reading out of
      the rectifier.

      The 48 VAC was measured with the multimeter set to VAC. I would
      assume that meant it's RMS. But I don't know. It was cheap when I
      bought it back in college...

      > The output of the bridge is
      > rectified AC, not pure DC and though the meter on DC should average it
      > out you can't count on it. Why it doesn't vary I don't know offhand.

      I understand the voltage out of the rectifier will not be constant but
      will have a kind of half sinusoidal look. I haven't found anyone that
      can explain how to size a capacitor to filter that. (Wikipedia is too
      generic on their descriptions of reservoir capacitors. I think I'll
      make another post about that question). I figured the controller and
      multimeter would just see an average VDC slightly lower than 48 V
      because of the wave.

      > Look, I don't know you and what your expertise is, so forgive me if it
      > sounds like I'm speaking down to you, but you are playing around with a
      > very dangerous setup!

      I'll be the first to admit that I'm pretty novice at this. I have
      some experience reading circuit diagrams and soldering from high
      school. And I have only a few college EE courses under my belt (Intro
      to Logic, Circuits and Systems, and Embedded Systems) that were all
      low power systems. But I did base my circuit on ones used by other EV
      guys and consulted with several EE's at work. They didn't see any
      issues with my approach.

      > The Curtis goes down to 24V right? You should be
      > able to do some basic functional tests with a couple of small 12V
      > batteries, maybe even 3-9Vs in series.

      It goes down to 36V. I went with this setup because it could later be
      used for charging my battery pack. I don't have 12V batteries right
      now. Hence the need for the setup.

      It won't test the limits of the controller (which is supposedly 300
      amps), but it should at least tell me whether it works. Which was my
      main goal.

      Thanks,
      -Steven

      > - SteveS
      >
      > Steven ** wrote:
      > > I'm trying to test the motor controller I just bought (Curtis
      > > 1204-412). I don't have my batteries yet. So, I've rigged a system
      > > like the typical BadBoy. But it's not working how I would expect.
      > >
      > > I have a variac (autotransformer) set to give me 48 VAC. I verified
      > > this with my cheapo multimeter. I got a cheap rectifier from
      > > RadioShack [1] that's rated 50 V and 25 amp. (That should be enough
      > > for low-power/no-load testing, right?) So, I soldered the 48 VAC to
      > > two pins of the bridge rectifier that have the wave label. Then I
      > > soldered another two wires to the + and - terminals. I assumed the
      > > wave pins were for the AC and it didn't matter which wire went to
      > > which terminal. And the + and - terminals were the DC. Is that
      > > right?
      > >
      > > So, I switched my cheapo multimeter to DC and measured the output of
      > > the rectifier. It's 62.9 VDC. Always. Doesn't matter if I turn the
      > > variac down to 20 or less VAC. The multimeter still reads 62.9 VDC
      > > out of the rectifier. Is my multimeter just dumb and reporting the
      > > frequency (62.9 is pretty close to the 60 Hz of the AC power)? Or is
      > > there something wrong with my circuit?
      > >
      > > Thanks,
      > > Steven
      > >
      > > References:
      > > [1] http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062584
      > >
      > > _______________________________________________
      > > For subscription options, see
      > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > For subscription options, see
      > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >



      ------------------------------

      Message: 20
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:07:04 -0500
      From: "Steven **" <montgoss+electriccar@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] Filtering rectified AC
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <abaa3a210804100907v7bdd4e25pf2ebef8c0c9d0db@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      How do you determine what size capacitor is needed to filter a
      rectified AC voltage to get you a better DC voltage?

      Or is a reservoir capacitor not enough? Do I need more complicated
      filtering to please my controller?

      Thanks,
      Steven



      ------------------------------

      Message: 21
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:36:12 -0700 (PDT)
      From: David Dymaxion <david_dymaxion@...>
      Subject: [EVDL] Adapter welding prep
      To: utah-ev-interest@..., Electric Vehicle Discussion
      List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <636822.16413.qm@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

      It is time to start welding my electric motor-to-transmission adapter. I wisely decided to do some practice welds first.

      I have done decent welds on thinner stuff, but I'm struggling with this thicker metal. I would say the welds look like bird poop, but that would be an unfair insult to bird poops everywhere. I do some online research, and refine my technique. The metal still almost instantly boils like mad and looks terrible. I keep turning the current down, and it seems binary -- I can boil the metal or not get enough heat.

      More research later, I find that my welder's own charts disagree, and I might be using too large a TIG electrode (1/8"), plus grinding it too blunt. I step down to a 3/32" electrode. A little current modulation, and I'm putting down beautiful test welds. Yay! Next I'll do another practice weld I hammer to test and saw apart to inspect, and then the adapter itself.

      While buying a adapter would have been much faster, it has been too much fun learning these new skills. Also, my hat is off to welders everywhere, I now look at welds with newfound respect!

      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      http://mail.yahoo.com

      ------------------------------

      Message: 22
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:40:41 -0400
      From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rectification - What's wrong?
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <47FE0AC9.32029.25B632@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

      On 10 Apr 2008 at 11:05, Steven ** wrote:

      > > an autotransformer does not
      > > isolate you from the AC line? That's a really dangerous way to experiment!
      >
      > What makes that so dangerous?

      Because the neutral return for the mains is grounded. Thus YOU can very
      easily become the return if you touch the wrong spot. ZAP! Full mains
      voltage across your body.

      >
      > > Given that, it sounds like the rectifier is connected right, but the
      > > voltage rating is way to low for what you are doing. The AC source at
      > > 48V ( I assumed measured with an RMS meter) will have peaks over 60V or
      > > so. You should have at least a 100V bridge.
      >
      > Why is a rectifier rated at 50PIV not enough for 48VAC?

      See above.

      >
      > The 48 VAC was measured with the multimeter set to VAC. I would
      > assume that meant it's RMS. But I don't know. It was cheap when I
      > bought it back in college...

      Cheap meters almost always read average, not RMS.

      >
      > > The output of the bridge is
      > > rectified AC, not pure DC and though the meter on DC should average it
      > > out you can't count on it. Why it doesn't vary I don't know offhand.
      >
      > I understand the voltage out of the rectifier will not be constant but
      > will have a kind of half sinusoidal look.

      I wouldn't call the waveform half-sine, not from a bridge rectifier, which
      from your description is what you're using. You'd get that from a half-wave
      rectifier. This is a full wave type.

      >
      > It goes down to 36V. I went with this setup because it could later be
      > used for charging my battery pack. I don't have 12V batteries right
      > now. Hence the need for the setup.

      I'll bet you have a few. Look around. Do you have an ICE? It has a 12v
      starting battery. A computer UPS will probably have a 12 or 18 volt battery
      in it. Maybe you could rig something up with a spare laptop battery. Et
      cetera.

      A friendly battery shop may be willing to sell you a few usable cores for
      little more than scrap value. I used to get old golf car batteries for $5
      each, now it would probably be more like $15-20 each, but smaller batteries
      (old UPS gel batteries) should be cheaper. Just make sure they actually
      hold a little charge before taking them home.

      Do you have any other EVers around you? It sounds like you could use some
      support.

      David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
      EVDL Administrator

      = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
      EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
      = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
      Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
      reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
      email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
      = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =




      ------------------------------

      Message: 23
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:44:07 -0400
      From: SteveS <stevesgroups@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rectification - What's wrong?
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <47FE43D7.4040609@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      Replies below:

      Steven ** wrote:
      > On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 10:24 AM, SteveS <stevesgroups@...> wrote:
      >
      >> First off - I hope you understand that an autotransformer does not
      >> isolate you from the AC line? That's a really dangerous way to experiment!
      >>
      >
      > What makes that so dangerous?
      >
      ----- Everything in your circuit would be tied to the AC line. You are
      eliminating one safeguard to keep from being shocked. If you are careful
      and don't try to probe with an AC operated scope or meter you may be ok.
      It's just that sometimes people don't realize that an auto-transformer
      doesn't isolate.

      >
      >> Given that, it sounds like the rectifier is connected right, but the
      >> voltage rating is way to low for what you are doing. The AC source at
      >> 48V ( I assumed measured with an RMS meter) will have peaks over 60V or
      >> so. You should have at least a 100V bridge.
      >>
      >
      > Why is a rectifier rated at 50PIV not enough for 48VAC? I can do 36 V
      > instead (the controller is rated 36 - 48 V). Except that lowering the
      > variac to 36 VAC doesn't have any effect on the voltage reading out of
      > the rectifier.
      >

      ---- The meter is reading the RMS voltage. For a sine wave the PEAK
      voltage is 1.4 * that or 67 volts. Your rectifier is 50PIV - PEAK
      inverse volts. Theoretically it could blow, though they have some safety
      factor. In general, you should use overrated components, which is why I
      suggest 100PIV.

      With little or no load, the DC side will charge up ( I forgot about the
      controller caps) to the peak voltage. I'm afraid you over-voltaged your
      controller, hopefully they used overrated components!

      > The 48 VAC was measured with the multimeter set to VAC. I would
      > assume that meant it's RMS. But I don't know. It was cheap when I
      > bought it back in colleg
      >
      >
      >> The output of the bridge is
      >> rectified AC, not pure DC and though the meter on DC should average it
      >> out you can't count on it. Why it doesn't vary I don't know offhand.
      >>
      >
      > I understand the voltage out of the rectifier will not be constant but
      > will have a kind of half sinusoidal look. I haven't found anyone that
      > can explain how to size a capacitor to filter that. (Wikipedia is too
      > generic on their descriptions of reservoir capacitors. I think I'll
      > make another post about that question). I figured the controller and
      > multimeter would just see an average VDC slightly lower than 48 V
      > because of the wave.
      >

      --- The caps in the controller should be plenty.
      >
      >> Look, I don't know you and what your expertise is, so forgive me if it
      >> sounds like I'm speaking down to you, but you are playing around with a
      >> very dangerous setup!
      >>
      >
      > I'll be the first to admit that I'm pretty novice at this. I have
      > some experience reading circuit diagrams and soldering from high
      > school. And I have only a few college EE courses under my belt (Intro
      > to Logic, Circuits and Systems, and Embedded Systems) that were all
      > low power systems. But I did base my circuit on ones used by other EV
      > guys and consulted with several EE's at work. They didn't see any
      > issues with my approach.
      >
      >
      >> The Curtis goes down to 24V right? You should be
      >> able to do some basic functional tests with a couple of small 12V
      >> batteries, maybe even 3-9Vs in series.
      >>
      >
      > It goes down to 36V. I went with this setup because it could later be
      > used for charging my battery pack. I don't have 12V batteries right
      > now. Hence the need for the setup.
      >
      > It won't test the limits of the controller (which is supposedly 300
      > amps), but it should at least tell me whether it works. Which was my
      > main goal.
      >

      ----------- Curtis has a nice drawing for bench testing a controller.
      You may want to refer to it if you haven't seen it yet.


      > Thanks,
      > -Steven
      >
      >
      >> - SteveS
      >>
      >> Steven ** wrote:
      >> > I'm trying to test the motor controller I just bought (Curtis
      >> > 1204-412). I don't have my batteries yet. So, I've rigged a system
      >> > like the typical BadBoy. But it's not working how I would expect.
      >> >
      >> > I have a variac (autotransformer) set to give me 48 VAC. I verified
      >> > this with my cheapo multimeter. I got a cheap rectifier from
      >> > RadioShack [1] that's rated 50 V and 25 amp. (That should be enough
      >> > for low-power/no-load testing, right?) So, I soldered the 48 VAC to
      >> > two pins of the bridge rectifier that have the wave label. Then I
      >> > soldered another two wires to the + and - terminals. I assumed the
      >> > wave pins were for the AC and it didn't matter which wire went to
      >> > which terminal. And the + and - terminals were the DC. Is that
      >> > right?
      >> >
      >> > So, I switched my cheapo multimeter to DC and measured the output of
      >> > the rectifier. It's 62.9 VDC. Always. Doesn't matter if I turn the
      >> > variac down to 20 or less VAC. The multimeter still reads 62.9 VDC
      >> > out of the rectifier. Is my multimeter just dumb and reporting the
      >> > frequency (62.9 is pretty close to the 60 Hz of the AC power)? Or is
      >> > there something wrong with my circuit?
      >> >
      >> > Thanks,
      >> > Steven
      >> >
      >> > References:
      >> > [1] http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062584
      >> >
      >> > _______________________________________________
      >> > For subscription options, see
      >> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >>
      >> _______________________________________________
      >> For subscription options, see
      >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >>
      >>
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > For subscription options, see
      > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >
      >
      >



      ------------------------------

      Message: 24
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:19:20 -0400
      From: "storm connors" <stormconnors@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Direct drive, cooling etc
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <f7ed9f6c0804100919v3f6da553g45c799964b71214b@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      For gear reduction with direct drive:
      The old VW bus had a gear reduction at the wheels. Monster trucks also
      utilize a planetary transmission at each wheel.



      ------------------------------

      Message: 25
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:44:32 -0400
      From: "storm connors" <stormconnors@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ammeter to shunt wiring
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <f7ed9f6c0804100944y557f9a27q26dd5a98d265da39@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      Roger,
      This is probably an ignorant question, but wouldn't putting a resistor
      in a signal line change the signal?
      storm


      >
      > If you have a signal lead, then placing a resistor in series with it will probably provide more effective protection. You can't prevent a connection between the traction pack and chassis or anything else, but you cna limit the available current to a safe level.
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      > Roger.
      >
      >
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > For subscription options, see
      > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
      >



      --
      http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
      http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
      Storm



      ------------------------------

      Message: 26
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:46:16 -0600
      From: "Zeke Yewdall" <zyewdall@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rectification - What's wrong?
      To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
      Message-ID:
      <f446b2df0804100946n7aa5c667nb04c416dda9a6120@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

      On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Steven **
      <montgoss+electriccar@...> wrote:

      >
      > Why is a rectifier rated at 50PIV not enough for 48VAC? I

      The peak voltage of an AC (assuming sinusoidal) waveform is square
      root of three times the RMS voltage -- so the peak voltage of 48VAC
      RMS is about 83 volts.


      > I don't have 12V batteries right
      > now. Hence the need for the setup.

      Actually, you probably do.... in your ICE (if you have one of them,
      that is). That's how I've been testing my motors (though, probably
      not controllers).... set of #4AWG jumper cables from the car battery,
      with the engine running, seems to handle 300 amp draws at 12 volts
      quite nicely for short duration testing.

      Z



      ------------------------------

      Message: 27
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:34:36 -0500
      From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] compostie battery box
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <47FEEA5C.3030406@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      Ralph wrote:
      > I'm looking into the idea of a foam and fiberglass battery box to
      > hold 13 lead-acid batteries for my Ford Ranger. I like the idea of
      > being able to keep the batteries warm and the lightness. I worry
      > about the strength. Any thoughts?

      Done right, you won't have *any* problems with strength. This technique
      is capable of a very high strength to weight ratio. It's what Burt Rutan
      of Scaled Composites uses on many of his high performance airplanes.

      Michael Shoop built the battery boxes with 1" styrafoam and West System
      epoxy for his Volt Vette EV conversion. They were amazingly strong -- we
      can *jump* on them without
      problems.<http://northstar.sierraclub.org/campaigns/air/voltVette/chap10.html>

      --
      Ring the bells that still can ring
      Forget the perfect offering
      There is a crack in everything
      That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
      --
      Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



      ------------------------------

      Message: 28
      Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:52:49 -0500
      From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fiel d Weakening Experiment for Speed Increase
      (48v CitiCar)
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <47FEEEA1.5050601@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

      Darin at- forkenswift.com wrote:
      > Can you say offhand whether there would be potential adverse effects
      > to a PWM Curtis style controller from switching a field weakening
      > resistor in/out of action while under power (as was the case in the
      > CitiCar video)?

      The Curtis and all other PWM controllers depend on the motor's
      inductance to work. The field provides most of this inductance. Field
      weakening *shorts* the field with a low-value resistor, which bypasses
      most of its inductance. Without it, the controller's current limit won't
      work, so it can't protect itself from excessive current.

      Therefore, do not use field weakening while the PWM controller is
      operating. You need a scheme that will not engage field weakening until

      a. You are at wide open throttle (commanding the controller to be fully
      on).

      b. The controller actually *is* fully on (motor is at a high enough
      RPM so it is getting full pack voltage, and the controller is at
      100% duty cycle).

      c. When field weakening engages, the motor current will increase. You
      need to be sure it is *still* below the controller's maximum current
      limit ratings.

      The simplest scheme is probaby a manual system. Install an ammeter in
      series with the motor (so you can see mo
      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
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        Today's Topics:

        1. Re: "And now for something completely different" ...
        (Bruce EVangel Parmenter)
        2. Re: EVLN: Cities crack down on EVSE spot violators with $100
        fines (Chris Tromley)
        3. Re: How the Tesla model S is made (robert winfield)
        4. EVLN: Mountain Limo's iMiev taxi service (brucedp5)
        5. EVLN: Tesla Aims to Charge their EVs in Five Minutes (brucedp5)
        6. Fwd: temp sensor XANTREX link 10 (EVDL Administrator)
        7. Re: EVLN: Tesla Aims to Charge their EVs in Five Minutes
        (Ed Blackmond)
        8. Re: EVLN: Tesla Aims to Charge their EVs in Five Minutes
        (Peri Hartman)
        9. Re: EVLN: Tesla Aims to Charge their EVs in Five Minutes
        (Gary Neal)
        10. Re: EVLN: Tesla Aims to Charge their EVs in Five Minutes
        (Cor van de Water)


        ----------------------------------------------------------------------

        Message: 1
        Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 13:07:57 -0700
        From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <brucedp5@...>
        To: ev@...
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] "And now for something completely different" ...
        Message-ID:
        <1374437277.6919.9223372036855384913.148D5069@...>

        Content-Type: text/plain

        John understands why I point out which-witch-is-which (EV vs pih/phev vs
        hev vs ice). And now we will need to also include fcv.

        While there are regenerative fcs, they are not being installed in fcvs
        (automakers are going the cheapest route). So fcvs use chemical-fuel to
        put energy back into the vehicle: they are a fuel vehicle that has
        electric components. fcvs are not EVs, they are fuel vehicles (sadly
        while H2 could be made from renewable sources, H2 is reformed from
        fossil-fuels, and no one is saying where the left-over gunk is going:
        swept under the carpet? released into the air?). But I am getting way-OT
        here. So, be careful in responding on the evdl.

        EVangels have a lot of work to do to make up for all the mis-information
        spewed by the media.
        By us defining which is which, it does not make us purists, it lets us
        help the public understand what-is-what.
        Our society is so tuned to accept what the media puts out as fact.

        [Sidebar
        Its funny, there was a re-showing of Johnny Carson interviewing Michael
        Caine, and late into the piece Michael admits that he purposely would
        lead the press astray with mis-information (he said if they are going to
        tell lies, why not me too). But he said it catches up to you. In one
        media interview, the press person said, "How can you say you did not say
        that, it is right here in the paper." Michael told the press person they
        were the writer. The writer said, "Oh, I did, OK I made that up ..."
        So, the media reads its own garbage as fact as well (EVangels have a
        long-row to hoe).
        ]

        With more and more terms coming into play, it is like a 31 flavors
        scenario at the ice-cream parlor (everyone like likes ice-cream, so it
        makes for a good analogy to use with the public). In the past I have
        used chocolate-chip as an analogy for pih (could not be called an
        ice/vanilla, nor an EV/chocolate, it is a blend of both, a hybrid). So,
        what flavor should we use for fcvs? ice-milk, the skinny-cow of
        ice-cream, touted as good but the whole picture is not shown (Funny how
        pundits are eager to do a well-to-wheels on EVs but not fcvs, ... Why is
        that? ).

        In my chats with the public (which I will be doing at the up-n-coming
        eaasv.org Silicon Valley EAA Rally in Sept.), once I have gently
        (rudimentarily) explained that each type is different, several of the
        public are amazed, and I get "no one told me that!?!" (which is why
        EVangels make the effort ... we're chipping away at all the
        misinformation, a little at a time).


        I will end with another term: electrified vehicles. That is a vehicle
        that has electric components, which can be an EV, pih/phev, hev, or
        fakey mild-hybrid (Heck if you want to go that route, an ice has a motor
        and a battery, one could call an ice and electrified vehicle too, ...
        Where will it end?).


        {brucedp.150m.com}
        ...
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baskin-Robbins
        31 flavors ice-cream
        http://news.baskinrobbins.com/




        -
        On Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 07:16 AM, JOHN OCONNOR wrote:
        > All I can say is that Rick makes a vey good argument for my position that
        > plug-in hybrids are a 'class of their own' separate from and easily
        > argued to be better than either EVs and ICEs.
        >
        > But they are hybrids not EVs. The fact they have an on-board ice
        > inherently means charging infrastructure is less important (a selling
        > feature for all the reasons you mention).
        >
        > Some of the plug in hybrids come closer to being and EV while some are
        > closer to plug in marketing gimmicks (the Prius comes to mind).
        >
        > The point I was trying to get across is that if you are interested in
        > tracking EV sales you should only count vehicles that don't have an ICE,
        > and that Bruce's desire to use PIH as a category is appropriate and I
        > would argue necessary.
        -

        --
        http://www.fastmail.fm - A fast, anti-spam email service.



        ------------------------------

        Message: 2
        Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 18:29:52 -0400
        From: Chris Tromley <ctromley@...>
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Cities crack down on EVSE spot violators
        with $100 fines
        Message-ID:
        <CAC36KhEQ84XQi++kJSQtoheJ3=tsBmfD0KNvj6rz6GhDNg38uQ@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

        On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 4:12 AM, brucedp5 <brucedp5@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > Crack down on electric car charging spots
        >

        <snip>


        ?Electric vehicle? means:
        >
        > (1) A neighborhood electric vehicle as defined in section 286-2; or
        >
        > (2) A vehicle, with four or more wheels, that draws propulsion energy from
        > a
        > battery with at least four kilowatt hours of energy storage capacity that
        > can be recharged from an external source of electricity.


        So what line of reasoning would lead any government entity (Hawaii in this
        case) to specifically exclude electric motorcycles from using EV charging
        parking spaces? Why would they do that?

        Chris
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        ------------------------------

        Message: 3
        Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 17:11:57 -0700 (PDT)
        From: robert winfield <winfield100@...>
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] How the Tesla model S is made
        Message-ID:
        <1374451917.62216.YahooMailNeo@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

        its probably called the EV 1.05




        ________________________________
        From: Peri Hartman <perih@...>
        To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' <ev@...>
        Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2013 3:30 PM
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] How the Tesla model S is made


        Intriguing; first I've heard of this:

        "To his credit, Akerson is working hard to ensure that GM remains
        competitive in the electric car market... The company also has a top-secret,
        pure electric vehicle in the works. According to reports, that vehicle could
        arrive with a range of 200+ miles."

        Peri

        -----Original Message-----
        From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
        Of Bruce EVangel Parmenter
        Sent: 21 July, 2013 12:06 PM
        To: ev@...
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] How the Tesla model S is made

        http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2013/0721/Why-GM-workers-are-study
        ing-Tesla
        Why GM workers are studying Tesla
        By Richard Read, Guest blogger / July 21, 2013
        As GM's CEO sees it, Elon Musk and Tesla have the potential to disrupt
        the [automotive] business model and change the face of the industry. So
        he's set up a team to study Tesla ... Tesla's Elon Musk is a proven
        innovator, ... Tesla is devoted exclusively to electric cars ... Can
        venerable old GM maintain its pace alongside whippersnapper Tesla? ...


        {brucedp.150m.com}



        -
        On Sun, Jul 21, 2013, at 06:43 AM, robert winfield wrote:
        > Article in Washington post business news today, reprint of Bloomburg news
        > about GM concerned about disruptive technology of Tesla. A lot of
        > politicians etc read the WaPo. If they saw the video, they would be
        > impressed as well
        -

        --
        http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web

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        ------------------------------

        Message: 4
        Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 00:21:04 -0700 (PDT)
        From: brucedp5 <brucedp5@...>
        To: ev@...
        Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Mountain Limo's iMiev taxi service
        Message-ID: <1374477664033-4664357.post@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8



        http://www.telluridenews.com/articles/2013/07/16/news/doc51e480e21c82b874174170.txt
        Mountain Limo goes electric
        By Collin McRann July 16, 2013

        Business testing new electric car in fleet

        Though electric vehicles predate their gasoline-powered cousins and were
        once the most preferred cars on the road, they?ve since fallen out of mass
        popularity. But they are making a comeback, and one Telluride transportation
        company has just added an electric car to its fleet.

        Mountain Limo, a regional taxi service, is now giving rides in a Mitsubishi
        i-MiEV. Mountain Limo owner Darcy Levtzow purchased the vehicle in May after
        the company got the contract to provide Dial-A-Ride service to Mountain
        Village from the Telluride Mountain Village Owners Association.

        The car is small and quiet, and it?s the first fully electric vehicle to
        taxi passengers around Telluride and Mountain Village as part of Mountain
        Limo?s fleet. The car has a range of about 85 miles, and it will mainly be
        used with Dial-A-Ride to take passengers around town. Levtzow said the
        company is testing it to see how well it works and could possibly buy more
        electric vehicles in the future if they prove practical.

        ?All of this is really a learning experience, so we can tell other people
        about the car because there is not a lot of information out there [on
        electrics],? Levtzow said. ?It?s been my dream to purchase an electric car
        so when I heard about the i-MiEV, I jumped at the chance.?

        *
        The i-MiEV has a 47-kilowatt motor and up to four passengers can ride in it
        at once. Levtzow said it drives like a normal car for the most part and has
        an automatic transmission. Though she said her drivers like it, it does take
        some getting used to because it handles a little differently.

        Right now the plan is to see how the car performs in the area and the
        biggest test will likely come this winter. Levtzow plans to buy studded snow
        tires to see how it performs in the snow.

        She said if the car proves functional, the company might buy some newer
        electrics, which will likely have a greater maximum distance. Currently
        Mountain Limo is using the i-MiEV to get around the towns and do an
        occasional trip up to the Telluride Airport.

        ?In 2014, there?s going to be improvements ? electric cars are going to be
        able to go further and they are going to be a little bigger,? Levtzow said.
        ?So we may wait on something like that.?

        The car has different options for charging, including a standard 110-volt
        plug, a 220v plug and a public quick charger. The standard 110v is the
        slowest option for charging. It takes 12-13 hours to fully charge the
        battery, while the 220v option takes four to seven hours and the public
        quick charge option takes only 30 minutes to get an 80 percent charge.

        The i-MiEV is produced under different brands worldwide and is most popular
        in Europe and Japan. It was first produced in 2009 and then made available
        in the U.S. in 2011. With the electric-only motor, Levtzow expects to see
        savings on fuel costs and can be charged anywhere there is an outlet.

        Dial-A-Ride is a free taxi service that operates within the Town of
        Mountain.
        [? 2013 Telluride Daily Planet]
        ...
        http://mountain-limo.com/
        Telluride Regional Airport Last Dollar Rd, Telluride, CO 81435
        (888) 546-6894
        ...
        http://www.afdc.energy.gov/locator/stations/results?utf8=%E2%9C%93&location=81435&filtered=true&fuel=ELEC&owner=all&payment=all&ev_level2=true&ev_dc_fast=true&radius_miles=5
        Public EVSE nearby




        For all EVLN posts use:
        http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date

        Here are today's archive-only EV posts:

        EVLN: Mercedes SLS AMG Electric Drive on BBC-America Top Gear
        EVLN: Europe-made 12m BYD Electric Bus Contract
        EVLN: EVs Will Become the Workhorses of Commercial Fleets
        EVLN: Renault Study Shows EVs Far Greener Than Gasoline--In France
        EVLN: Car buyers shouldn't have to go through a middleman
        +
        EVLN: Tesla Aims to Charge their EVs in Five Minutes


        {brucedp.150m.com}



        --
        View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Mountain-Limo-s-iMiev-taxi-service-tp4664357.html
        Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


        ------------------------------

        Message: 5
        Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 00:22:17 -0700 (PDT)
        From: brucedp5 <brucedp5@...>
        To: ev@...
        Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla Aims to Charge their EVs in Five Minutes
        Message-ID: <1374477737266-4664358.post@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8



        http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516876/forget-battery-swapping-tesla-aims-to-charge-electric-cars-in-five-minutes/
        Forget Battery Swapping: Tesla Aims to Charge Electric Cars in Five Minutes
        By Kevin Bullis July 16, 2013

        [image
        http://www.technologyreview.com/sites/default/files/images/tesla.5min.chargex299.jpg
        ]

        Tesla Motors is pushing the limits of charging technology to make electric
        vehicles as practical as gas-powered cars.

        Electric vehicles take too long to recharge. To charge a Tesla Model S just
        halfway takes five hours at a typical home or public charging station. But
        in its effort to make electric vehicles more practical, Tesla Motors is
        quickly reducing the charging times. Last September, it unveiled a network
        of ?supercharging? stations?designed exclusively for its Model S and future
        electric vehicles?that could charge a battery halfway in 30 minutes. In May,
        it announced an upgrade that cut that time to 20 minutes. Now Tesla?s chief
        technology officer, JB Straubel, says the company eventually could cut the
        time it takes to fully charge the battery to just five minutes?or not much
        longer than it takes to fill a gas tank.

        Straubel isn?t referring to the battery swap technology Tesla recently
        unveiled ... He?s talking about what might be a more appealing option for
        drivers: recharging the battery in your car while you wait.

        ?It?s not going to happen in a year from now. It?s going to be hard. But I
        think we can get down to five to 10 minutes,? Straubel said in an interview
        with MIT Technology Review. He noted that the current superchargers, which
        deliver 120 kilowatts of electricity, ?seemed pretty crazy even 10 years
        ago.? Conventional public charging stations deliver well under 10 kilowatts.

        Tesla is far ahead of its competition with its supercharging technology. For
        example, the most popular fast-charging technology today is based on the
        Japanese Chademo standard, which enables 50-kilowatt charging. Even SAE
        International?s brand-new fast-charging standard, which was finalized in
        October and is being adopted by major automakers such as GM, tops out at 100
        kilowatts.

        One reason Tesla has pushed the technology so aggressively is that its
        battery packs store more than three times the energy of its competitors?
        electric-car batteries. As a result, they require more power to charge
        quickly, says Arindam Maitra, a senior project manager at the Electric Power
        Research Institute.

        Straubel says Tesla has been able to rapidly improve charging because it
        designs and builds all of the key components itself, including the chargers,
        the electronics for monitoring the battery pack, and a cooling system for
        the battery. They?re all optimized to work together in a way that?s not easy
        for systems built to accommodate many different models of electric vehicles.

        If an electric car is plugged directly into a wall socket, on-board chargers
        take AC power from the wall, convert it to DC, and regulate the power
        delivered to the battery. Fast charging or supercharging bypasses the
        onboard charger; the AC-to-DC conversion happens outside the vehicle.

        One challenge of fast charging is that delivering power to a battery very
        rapidly can cause it to overheat. To avoid damaging the battery, the outside
        charger needs to communicate with the electronics that monitor the state of
        the batteries, including their voltage and temperature, and quickly adjust
        charging rates accordingly. ?To do that kind of charging, everything has to
        be designed and working in perfect synchrony,? Straubel says.

        Achieving five-minute charges will require not only further improving the
        charging system, but also improving the interface with the electrical grid.
        As it is, only some places on the grid can handle 120-kilowatt charging.
        Drawing large amounts of power from the grid also incurs demand charges from
        the utility, increasing the cost of the system.

        But Straubel says that Tesla plans to get around these problems by equipping
        supercharging stations with solar panels and batteries.

        Storing solar power in batteries in the charging station could also be
        helpful to operators of the power grid (see ?Wind Turbines, Battery
        Included, Can Keep Power Supplies Stable?). They could provide utilities a
        way to moderate fluctuations on the grid, something that?s becoming more
        important as more intermittent sources of power, such as solar and wind, are
        added. Tesla plans to test such a system soon in California. It could charge
        utilities for this service, which, Straubel says, could help offset the cost
        of the stations.

        Even though these fast-charging breakthroughs would be useful only on
        Tesla?s cars, they still could be important for expanding the EV market.
        Tesla plans to introduce cars in the $30,000 to $35,000 range in the next
        few years.
        [? 2013 technologyreview.com]



        http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516876/forget-battery-swapping-tesla-aims-to-charge-electric-cars-in-five-minutes/
        Forget Battery Swapping: Tesla Aims to Charge Electric Cars in Five Minutes
        Tesla Motors is pushing the limits of charging technology to make electric
        vehicles as practical as gas-powered cars.



        http://www.dailytech.com/Tesla+Building+Tech+to+Fully+Charge+EVs+in+Just+5+Minutes/article31990.htm
        Tesla Building Tech to Fully Charge EVs in Just 5 Minutes
        Tiffany Kaiser - July 17, 2013 Tesla Chief Technology Officer JB Straubel
        recently said that the automaker is working on a charging system that would
        get drivers out of the Supercharger stations and back on the road with a
        full charge in just 5 minutes ...




        For all EVLN posts use:
        http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date

        Here are today's archive-only EV posts:

        EVLN: Mercedes SLS AMG Electric Drive on BBC-America Top Gear
        EVLN: Europe-made 12m BYD Electric Bus Contract
        EVLN: EVs Will Become the Workhorses of Commercial Fleets
        EVLN: Renault Study Shows EVs Far Greener Than Gasoline--In France
        EVLN: Car buyers shouldn't have to go through a middleman
        +
        EVLN: Mountain Limo's iMiev taxi service


        {brucedp.150m.com}



        --
        View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Tesla-Aims-to-Charge-their-EVs-in-Five-Minutes-tp4664358.html
        Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


        ------------------------------

        Message: 6
        Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 09:28:34 -0500
        From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
        To: ev@...
        Subject: [EVDL] Fwd: temp sensor XANTREX link 10
        Message-ID: <51ECFB42.23508.15DD85F@...>

        I received the message below at an offlist address. If anyone can help
        Philippe, please respond to me at my offlist address here

        http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

        and I'll put you in touch with him.

        Thanks,

        David (moderator)

        =====

        Dear sir,

        We are SDMO company in France and we are looking for 4 temperature sensor
        for XANTREX link 10, the reference of the sensor is : 84-2024-00 This sensor
        is now in end life. Could you help us to find 4 sensors ? Best regards

        Philippe Morin



        ------------------------------

        Message: 7
        Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 09:35:02 -0700 (PDT)
        From: Ed Blackmond <Ed@...>
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla Aims to Charge their EVs in Five
        Minutes
        Message-ID:
        <Pine.LNX.4.44.1307220919390.21177-100000@...>
        Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1

        Recharging an 85KWH battery pack in 5 minutes will require a 60 megawatt
        power source (assuming no losses). At 90% efficiency there will be 6
        megawats of wasted power. It will be very important to disconnect from
        the grid while the connectors are still in their liquid state, or the car
        will have a very short range.

        Ed

        On Mon, 22 Jul 2013, brucedp5 wrote:

        >

        http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516876/forget-battery-swapping-tesla-aims-to-charge-electric-cars-in-five-minutes/
        Forget Battery Swapping: Tesla Aims to Charge Electric Cars in Five Minutes
        By Kevin Bullis July 16, 2013

        [image
        http://www.technologyreview.com/sites/default/files/images/tesla.5min.chargex299.jpg
        ]

        Tesla Motors is pushing the limits of charging technology to make electric
        vehicles as practical as gas-powered cars.

        Electric vehicles take too long to recharge. To charge a Tesla Model S just
        halfway takes five hours at a typical home or public charging station. But
        in its effort to make electric vehicles more practical, Tesla Motors is
        quickly reducing the charging times. Last September, it unveiled a network
        of ???supercharging??? stations???designed exclusively for its Model S and future
        electric vehicles???that could charge a battery halfway in 30 minutes. In May,
        it announced an upgrade that cut that time to 20 minutes. Now Tesla???s chief
        technology officer, JB Straubel, says the company eventually could cut the
        time it takes to fully charge the battery to just five minutes???or not much
        longer than it takes to fill a gas tank.

        Straubel isn???t referring to the battery swap technology Tesla recently
        unveiled ... He???s talking about what might be a more appealing option for
        drivers: recharging the battery in your car while you wait.

        ???It???s not going to happen in a year from now. It???s going to be hard. But I
        think we can get down to five to 10 minutes,??? Straubel said in an interview
        with MIT Technology Review. He noted that the current superchargers, which
        deliver 120 kilowatts of electricity, ???seemed pretty crazy even 10 years
        ago.??? Conventional public charging stations deliver well under 10 kilowatts.

        Tesla is far ahead of its competition with its supercharging technology. For
        example, the most popular fast-charging technology today is based on the
        Japanese Chademo standard, which enables 50-kilowatt charging. Even SAE
        International???s brand-new fast-charging standard, which was finalized in
        October and is being adopted by major automakers such as GM, tops out at 100
        kilowatts.

        One reason Tesla has pushed the technology so aggressively is that its
        battery packs store more than three times the energy of its competitors???
        electric-car batteries. As a result, they require more power to charge
        quickly, says Arindam Maitra, a senior project manager at the Electric Power
        Research Institute.

        Straubel says Tesla has been able to rapidly improve charging because it
        designs and builds all of the key components itself, including the chargers,
        the electronics for monitoring the battery pack, and a cooling system for
        the battery. They???re all optimized to work together in a way that???s not easy
        for systems built to accommodate many different models of electric vehicles.

        If an electric car is plugged directly into a wall socket, on-board chargers
        take AC power from the wall, convert it to DC, and regulate the power
        delivered to the battery. Fast charging or supercharging bypasses the
        onboard charger; the AC-to-DC conversion happens outside the vehicle.

        One challenge of fast charging is that delivering power to a battery very
        rapidly can cause it to overheat. To avoid damaging the battery, the outside
        charger needs to communicate with the electronics that monitor the state of
        the batteries, including their voltage and temperature, and quickly adjust
        charging rates accordingly. ???To do that kind of charging, everything has to
        be designed and working in perfect synchrony,??? Straubel says.

        Achieving five-minute charges will require not only further improving the
        charging system, but also improving the interface with the electrical grid.
        As it is, only some places on the grid can handle 120-kilowatt charging.
        Drawing large amounts of power from the grid also incurs demand charges from
        the utility, increasing the cost of the system.

        But Straubel says that Tesla plans to get around these problems by equipping
        supercharging stations with solar panels and batteries.

        Storing solar power in batteries in the charging station could also be
        helpful to operators of the power grid (see ???Wind Turbines, Battery
        Included, Can Keep Power Supplies Stable???). They could provide utilities a
        way to moderate fluctuations on the grid, something that???s becoming more
        important as more intermittent sources of power, such as solar and wind, are
        added. Tesla plans to test such a system soon in California. It could charge
        utilities for this service, which, Straubel says, could help offset the cost
        of the stations.

        Even though these fast-charging breakthroughs would be useful only on
        Tesla???s cars, they still could be important for expanding the EV market.
        Tesla plans to introduce cars in the $30,000 to $35,000 range in the next
        few years.
        [?? 2013 technologyreview.com]



        http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516876/forget-battery-swapping-tesla-aims-to-charge-electric-cars-in-five-minutes/
        Forget Battery Swapping: Tesla Aims to Charge Electric Cars in Five Minutes
        Tesla Motors is pushing the limits of charging technology to make electric
        vehicles as practical as gas-powered cars.



        http://www.dailytech.com/Tesla+Building+Tech+to+Fully+Charge+EVs+in+Just+5+Minutes/article31990.htm
        Tesla Building Tech to Fully Charge EVs in Just 5 Minutes
        Tiffany Kaiser - July 17, 2013 Tesla Chief Technology Officer JB Straubel
        recently said that the automaker is working on a charging system that would
        get drivers out of the Supercharger stations and back on the road with a
        full charge in just 5 minutes ...




        For all EVLN posts use:
        http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date

        Here are today's archive-only EV posts:

        EVLN: Mercedes SLS AMG Electric Drive on BBC-America Top Gear
        EVLN: Europe-made 12m BYD Electric Bus Contract
        EVLN: EVs Will Become the Workhorses of Commercial Fleets
        EVLN: Renault Study Shows EVs Far Greener Than Gasoline--In France
        EVLN: Car buyers shouldn't have to go through a middleman
        +
        EVLN: Mountain Limo's iMiev taxi service


        {brucedp.150m.com}



        --
        View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Tesla-Aims-to-Charge-their-EVs-in-Five-Minutes-tp4664358.html
        Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
        _______________________________________________
        UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
        http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
        For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)




        ------------------------------

        Message: 8
        Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 10:11:33 -0700
        From: "Peri Hartman" <perih@...>
        To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla Aims to Charge their EVs in Five
        Minutes
        Message-ID: <A4D76EFCEEA14D9CA3FF4DC5AB98F4EF@perilaptop>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

        Assuming an efficiency that is linear with respect to current, the amount of wasted power is the same whether you charge with 60 MW or 10KW.

        Peri

        -----Original Message-----
        From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Ed Blackmond
        Sent: 22 July, 2013 9:35 AM
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla Aims to Charge their EVs in Five Minutes

        Recharging an 85KWH battery pack in 5 minutes will require a 60 megawatt
        power source (assuming no losses). At 90% efficiency there will be 6
        megawats of wasted power. It will be very important to disconnect from
        the grid while the connectors are still in their liquid state, or the car
        will have a very short range.

        Ed

        On Mon, 22 Jul 2013, brucedp5 wrote:

        >

        http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516876/forget-battery-swapping-tesla-aims-to-charge-electric-cars-in-five-minutes/
        Forget Battery Swapping: Tesla Aims to Charge Electric Cars in Five Minutes
        By Kevin Bullis July 16, 2013

        [image
        http://www.technologyreview.com/sites/default/files/images/tesla.5min.chargex299.jpg
        ]

        Tesla Motors is pushing the limits of charging technology to make electric
        vehicles as practical as gas-powered cars.

        Electric vehicles take too long to recharge. To charge a Tesla Model S just
        halfway takes five hours at a typical home or public charging station. But
        in its effort to make electric vehicles more practical, Tesla Motors is
        quickly reducing the charging times. Last September, it unveiled a network
        of ???supercharging??? stations???designed exclusively for its Model S and future
        electric vehicles???that could charge a battery halfway in 30 minutes. In May,
        it announced an upgrade that cut that time to 20 minutes. Now Tesla???s chief
        technology officer, JB Straubel, says the company eventually could cut the
        time it takes to fully charge the battery to just five minutes???or not much
        longer than it takes to fill a gas tank.

        Straubel isn???t referring to the battery swap technology Tesla recently
        unveiled ... He???s talking about what might be a more appealing option for
        drivers: recharging the battery in your car while you wait.

        ???It???s not going to happen in a year from now. It???s going to be hard. But I
        think we can get down to five to 10 minutes,??? Straubel said in an interview
        with MIT Technology Review. He noted that the current superchargers, which
        deliver 120 kilowatts of electricity, ???seemed pretty crazy even 10 years
        ago.??? Conventional public charging stations deliver well under 10 kilowatts.

        Tesla is far ahead of its competition with its supercharging technology. For
        example, the most popular fast-charging technology today is based on the
        Japanese Chademo standard, which enables 50-kilowatt charging. Even SAE
        International???s brand-new fast-charging standard, which was finalized in
        October and is being adopted by major automakers such as GM, tops out at 100
        kilowatts.

        One reason Tesla has pushed the technology so aggressively is that its
        battery packs store more than three times the energy of its competitors???
        electric-car batteries. As a result, they require more power to charge
        quickly, says Arindam Maitra, a senior project manager at the Electric Power
        Research Institute.

        Straubel says Tesla has been able to rapidly improve charging because it
        designs and builds all of the key components itself, including the chargers,
        the electronics for monitoring the battery pack, and a cooling system for
        the battery. They???re all optimized to work together in a way that???s not easy
        for systems built to accommodate many different models of electric vehicles.

        If an electric car is plugged directly into a wall socket, on-board chargers
        take AC power from the wall, convert it to DC, and regulate the power
        delivered to the battery. Fast charging or supercharging bypasses the
        onboard charger; the AC-to-DC conversion happens outside the vehicle.

        One challenge of fast charging is that delivering power to a battery very
        rapidly can cause it to overheat. To avoid damaging the battery, the outside
        charger needs to communicate with the electronics that monitor the state of
        the batteries, including their voltage and temperature, and quickly adjust
        charging rates accordingly. ???To do that kind of charging, everything has to
        be designed and working in perfect synchrony,??? Straubel says.

        Achieving five-minute charges will require not only further improving the
        charging system, but also improving the interface with the electrical grid.
        As it is, only some places on the grid can handle 120-kilowatt charging.
        Drawing large amounts of power from the grid also incurs demand charges from
        the utility, increasing the cost of the system.

        But Straubel says that Tesla plans to get around these problems by equipping
        supercharging stations with solar panels and batteries.

        Storing solar power in batteries in the charging station could also be
        helpful to operators of the power grid (see ???Wind Turbines, Battery
        Included, Can Keep Power Supplies Stable???). They could provide utilities a
        way to moderate fluctuations on the grid, something that???s becoming more
        important as more intermittent sources of power, such as solar and wind, are
        added. Tesla plans to test such a system soon in California. It could charge
        utilities for this service, which, Straubel says, could help offset the cost
        of the stations.

        Even though these fast-charging breakthroughs would be useful only on
        Tesla???s cars, they still could be important for expanding the EV market.
        Tesla plans to introduce cars in the $30,000 to $35,000 range in the next
        few years.
        [?? 2013 technologyreview.com]



        http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516876/forget-battery-swapping-tesla-aims-to-charge-electric-cars-in-five-minutes/
        Forget Battery Swapping: Tesla Aims to Charge Electric Cars in Five Minutes
        Tesla Motors is pushing the limits of charging technology to make electric
        vehicles as practical as gas-powered cars.



        http://www.dailytech.com/Tesla+Building+Tech+to+Fully+Charge+EVs+in+Just+5+Minutes/article31990.htm
        Tesla Building Tech to Fully Charge EVs in Just 5 Minutes
        Tiffany Kaiser - July 17, 2013 Tesla Chief Technology Officer JB Straubel
        recently said that the automaker is working on a charging system that would
        get drivers out of the Supercharger stations and back on the road with a
        full charge in just 5 minutes ...




        For all EVLN posts use:
        http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date

        Here are today's archive-only EV posts:

        EVLN: Mercedes SLS AMG Electric Drive on BBC-America Top Gear
        EVLN: Europe-made 12m BYD Electric Bus Contract
        EVLN: EVs Will Become the Workhorses of Commercial Fleets
        EVLN: Renault Study Shows EVs Far Greener Than Gasoline--In France
        EVLN: Car buyers shouldn't have to go through a middleman
        +
        EVLN: Mountain Limo's iMiev taxi service


        {brucedp.150m.com}



        --
        View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Tesla-Aims-to-Charge-their-EVs-in-Five-Minutes-tp4664358.html
        Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
        _______________________________________________
        UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
        http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
        For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)


        _______________________________________________
        UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
        http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
        For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)





        ------------------------------

        Message: 9
        Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 14:02:10 -0400
        From: "Gary Neal" <gln103@...>
        To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla Aims to Charge their EVs in Five
        Minutes
        Message-ID: <001f01ce8705$96892680$c39b7380$@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

        85,000 Whr * 60 (mins/hour) / 5 mins = 1 MW, not 60 MW.

        Still, nothing to sneeze at.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Ed Blackmond
        Sent: 22 July, 2013 9:35 AM
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla Aims to Charge their EVs in Five Minutes

        Recharging an 85KWH battery pack in 5 minutes will require a 60 megawatt power source (assuming no losses). At 90% efficiency there will be 6 megawats of wasted power. It will be very important to disconnect from the grid while the connectors are still in their liquid state, or the car will have a very short range.

        Ed

        On Mon, 22 Jul 2013, brucedp5 wrote:

        >

        http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516876/forget-battery-swapping-tesla-aims-to-charge-electric-cars-in-five-minutes/
        Forget Battery Swapping: Tesla Aims to Charge Electric Cars in Five Minutes By Kevin Bullis July 16, 2013

        [image
        http://www.technologyreview.com/sites/default/files/images/tesla.5min.chargex299.jpg
        ]

        Tesla Motors is pushing the limits of charging technology to make electric vehicles as practical as gas-powered cars.

        Electric vehicles take too long to recharge. To charge a Tesla Model S just halfway takes five hours at a typical home or public charging station. But in its effort to make electric vehicles more practical, Tesla Motors is quickly reducing the charging times. Last September, it unveiled a network of ???supercharging??? stations???designed exclusively for its Model S and future electric vehicles???that could charge a battery halfway in 30 minutes. In May, it announced an upgrade that cut that time to 20 minutes. Now Tesla???s chief technology officer, JB Straubel, says the company eventually could cut the time it takes to fully charge the battery to just five minutes???or not much longer than it takes to fill a gas tank.

        Straubel isn???t referring to the battery swap technology Tesla recently unveiled ... He???s talking about what might be a more appealing option for
        drivers: recharging the battery in your car while you wait.

        ???It???s not going to happen in a year from now. It???s going to be hard. But I think we can get down to five to 10 minutes,??? Straubel said in an interview with MIT Technology Review. He noted that the current superchargers, which deliver 120 kilowatts of electricity, ???seemed pretty crazy even 10 years ago.??? Conventional public charging stations deliver well under 10 kilowatts.

        Tesla is far ahead of its competition with its supercharging technology. For example, the most popular fast-charging technology today is based on the Japanese Chademo standard, which enables 50-kilowatt charging. Even SAE International???s brand-new fast-charging standard, which was finalized in October and is being adopted by major automakers such as GM, tops out at 100 kilowatts.

        One reason Tesla has pushed the technology so aggressively is that its battery packs store more than three times the energy of its competitors??? electric-car batteries. As a result, they require more power to charge quickly, says Arindam Maitra, a senior project manager at the Electric Power Research Institute.

        Straubel says Tesla has been able to rapidly improve charging because it designs and builds all of the key components itself, including the chargers, the electronics for monitoring the battery pack, and a cooling system for the battery. They???re all optimized to work together in a way that???s not easy for systems built to accommodate many different models of electric vehicles.

        If an electric car is plugged directly into a wall socket, on-board chargers take AC power from the wall, convert it to DC, and regulate the power delivered to the battery. Fast charging or supercharging bypasses the onboard charger; the AC-to-DC conversion happens outside the vehicle.

        One challenge of fast charging is that delivering power to a battery very rapidly can cause it to overheat. To avoid damaging the battery, the outside charger needs to communicate with the electronics that monitor the state of the batteries, including their voltage and temperature, and quickly adjust charging rates accordingly. ???To do that kind of charging, everything has to be designed and working in perfect synchrony,??? Straubel says.

        Achieving five-minute charges will require not only further improving the charging system, but also improving the interface with the electrical grid.
        As it is, only some places on the grid can handle 120-kilowatt charging.
        Drawing large amounts of power from the grid also incurs demand charges from the utility, increasing the cost of the system.

        But Straubel says that Tesla plans to get around these problems by equipping supercharging stations with solar panels and batteries.

        Storing solar power in batteries in the charging station could also be helpful to operators of the power grid (see ???Wind Turbines, Battery Included, Can Keep Power Supplies Stable???). They could provide utilities a way to moderate fluctuations on the grid, something that???s becoming more important as more intermittent sources of power, such as solar and wind, are added. Tesla plans to test such a system soon in California. It could charge utilities for this service, which, Straubel says, could help offset the cost of the stations.

        Even though these fast-charging breakthroughs would be useful only on Tesla???s cars, they still could be important for expanding the EV market.
        Tesla plans to introduce cars in the $30,000 to $35,000 range in the next few years.
        [?? 2013 technologyreview.com]



        http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516876/forget-battery-swapping-tesla-aims-to-charge-electric-cars-in-five-minutes/
        Forget Battery Swapping: Tesla Aims to Charge Electric Cars in Five Minutes Tesla Motors is pushing the limits of charging technology to make electric vehicles as practical as gas-powered cars.



        http://www.dailytech.com/Tesla+Building+Tech+to+Fully+Charge+EVs+in+Just+5+Minutes/article31990.htm
        Tesla Building Tech to Fully Charge EVs in Just 5 Minutes
        Tiffany Kaiser - July 17, 2013 Tesla Chief Technology Officer JB Straubel
        recently said that the automaker is working on a charging system that would
        get drivers out of the Supercharger stations and back on the road with a
        full charge in just 5 minutes ...




        For all EVLN posts use:
        http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date

        Here are today's archive-only EV posts:

        EVLN: Mercedes SLS AMG Electric Drive on BBC-America Top Gear
        EVLN: Europe-made 12m BYD Electric Bus Contract
        EVLN: EVs Will Become the Workhorses of Commercial Fleets
        EVLN: Renault Study Shows EVs Far Greener Than Gasoline--In France
        EVLN: Car buyers shouldn't have to go through a middleman
        +
        EVLN: Mountain Limo's iMiev taxi service


        {brucedp.150m.com}



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        ------------------------------

        Message: 10
        Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 11:56:48 -0700
        From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
        To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla Aims to Charge their EVs in Five
        Minutes
        Message-ID:
        <A73BC4B8B3218642A56A2C9EB01B44E001D39064@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

        Hi Ed,
        I think you are trying to charge in 5 seconds, not 5 mins, according your power calculation ;-)
        5 min is 1/12 hour, so if you would be able to recharge from 0 to 100%
        and deliver 85kWh in 5 min, it would take 12 x 85kW = 1 MW.
        With 60 MW you'd charge in 5 sec and that will likely have interesting physics as you noted.

        BTW, JB said 5 to 10 mins.
        Also, it is typically assumed that you cannot fast-charge more than 80%
        so calculating for the full 80% (who ever drives their car to death?)
        from 0 to 80% in 10 mins requires only 400kW.
        Typical conversion efficiency of well-designed electronics stages is around 95% (the cables have virtually no loss, or you'd be faced with liquid-cooled cables, which is possible but not practical) so you are talking about an amount of around 20kW in heat loss. This is significant but not very difficult to deal with.
        Note that delivering this power through cables is simple by using high voltage (5 kV means that the current is only 80A in single phase).
        DC-fastcharging at a typical 400V battery voltage would require rather fat (heavy and hard to handle) cables to carry the 1000 Amp current. Not impossible but certainly impractical if a human needs to plug it in, but maybe Tesla will also have an automatic plug-in station, just like they have a battery swap station?

        Cor van de Water
        Chief Scientist
        Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
        Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
        Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


        -----Original Message-----
        From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Ed Blackmond
        Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 9:35 AM
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla Aims to Charge their EVs in Five Minutes

        Recharging an 85KWH battery pack in 5 minutes will require a 60 megawatt
        power source (assuming no losses). At 90% efficiency there will be 6
        megawats of wasted power. It will be very important to disconnect from
        the grid while the connectors are still in their liquid state, or the car
        will have a very short range.

        Ed

        On Mon, 22 Jul 2013, brucedp5 wrote:

        >

        http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516876/forget-battery-swapping-tesla-aims-to-charge-electric-cars-in-five-minutes/
        Forget Battery Swapping: Tesla Aims to Charge Electric Cars in Five Minutes
        By Kevin Bullis July 16, 2013

        [image
        http://www.technologyreview.com/sites/default/files/images/tesla.5min.chargex299.jpg
        ]

        Tesla Motors is pushing the limits of charging technology to make electric
        vehicles as practical as gas-powered cars.

        Electric vehicles take too long to recharge. To charge a Tesla Model S just
        halfway takes five hours at a typical home or public charging station. But
        in its effort to make electric vehicles more practical, Tesla Motors is
        quickly reducing the charging times. Last September, it unveiled a network
        of ???supercharging??? stations???designed exclusively for its Model S and future
        electric vehicles???that could charge a battery halfway in 30 minutes. In May,
        it announced an upgrade that cut that time to 20 minutes. Now Tesla???s chief
        technology officer, JB Straubel, says the company eventually could cut the
        time it takes to fully charge the battery to just five minutes???or not much
        longer than it takes to fill a gas tank.

        Straubel isn???t referring to the battery swap technology Tesla recently
        unveiled ... He???s talking about what might be a more appealing option for
        drivers: recharging the battery in your car while you wait.

        ???It???s not going to happen in a year from now. It???s going to be hard. But I
        think we can get down to five to 10 minutes,??? Straubel said in an interview
        with MIT Technology Review. He noted that the current superchargers, which
        deliver 120 kilowatts of electricity, ???seemed pretty crazy even 10 years
        ago.??? Conventional public charging stations deliver well under 10 kilowatts.

        Tesla is far ahead of its competition with its supercharging technology. For
        example, the most popular fast-charging technology today is based on the
        Japanese Chademo standard, which enables 50-kilowatt charging. Even SAE
        International???s brand-new fast-charging standard, which was finalized in
        October and is being adopted by major automakers such as GM, tops out at 100
        kilowatts.

        One reason Tesla has pushed the technology so aggressively is that its
        battery packs store more than three times the energy of its competitors???
        electric-car batteries. As a result, they require more power to charge
        quickly, says Arindam Maitra, a senior project manager at the Electric Power
        Research Institute.

        Straubel says Tesla has been able to rapidly improve charging because it
        designs and builds all of the key components itself, including the chargers,
        the electronics for monitoring the battery pack, and a cooling system for
        the battery. They???re all optimized to work together in a way that???s not easy
        for systems built to accommodate many different models of electric vehicles.

        If an electric car is plugged directly into a wall socket, on-board chargers
        take AC power from the wall, convert it to DC, and regulate the power
        delivered to the battery. Fast charging or supercharging bypasses the
        onboard charger; the AC-to-DC conversion happens outside the vehicle.

        One challenge of fast charging is that delivering power to a battery very
        rapidly can cause it to overheat. To avoid damaging the battery, the outside
        charger needs to communicate with the electronics that monitor the state of
        the batteries, including their voltage and temperature, and quickly adjust
        charging rates accordingly. ???To do that kind of charging, everything has to
        be designed and working in perfect synchrony,??? Straubel says.

        Achieving five-minute charges will require not only further improving the
        charging system, but also improving the interface with the electrical grid.
        As it is, only some places on the grid can handle 120-kilowatt charging.
        Drawing large amounts of power from the grid also incurs demand charges from
        the utility, increasing the cost of the system.

        But Straubel says that Tesla plans to get around these problems by equipping
        supercharging stations with solar panels and batteries.

        Storing solar power in batteries in the charging station could also be
        helpful to operators of the power grid (see ???Wind Turbines, Battery
        Included, Can Keep Power Supplies Stable???). They could provide utilities a
        way to moderate fluctuations on the grid, something that???s becoming more
        important as more intermittent sources of power, such as solar and wind, are
        added. Tesla plans to test such a system soon in California. It could charge
        utilities for this service, which, Straubel says, could help offset the cost
        of the stations.

        Even though these fast-charging breakthroughs would be useful only on
        Tesla???s cars, they still could be important for expanding the EV market.
        Tesla plans to introduce cars in the $30,000 to $35,000 range in the next
        few years.
        [?? 2013 technologyreview.com]



        http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516876/forget-battery-swapping-tesla-aims-to-charge-electric-cars-in-five-minutes/
        Forget Battery Swapping: Tesla Aims to Charge Electric Cars in Five Minutes
        Tesla Motors is pushing the limits of charging technology to make electric
        vehicles as practical as gas-powered cars.



        http://www.dailytech.com/Tesla+Building+Tech+to+Fully+Charge+EVs+in+Just+5+Minutes/article31990.htm
        Tesla Building Tech to Fully Charge EVs in Just 5 Minutes
        Tiffany Kaiser - July 17, 2013 Tesla Chief Technology Officer JB Straubel
        recently said that the automaker is working on a charging system that would
        get drivers out of the Supercharger stations and back on the road with a
        full charge in just 5 minutes ...




        For all EVLN posts use:
        http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date

        Here are today's archive-only EV posts:

        EVLN: Mercedes SLS AMG Electric Drive on BBC-America Top Gear
        EVLN: Europe-made 12m BYD Electric Bus Contract
        EVLN: EVs Will Become the Workhorses of Commercial Fleets
        EVLN: Renault Study Shows EVs Far Greener Than Gasoline--In France
        EVLN: Car buyers shouldn't have to go through a middleman
        +
        EVLN: Mountain Limo's iMiev taxi service


        {brucedp.150m.com}



        --
        View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Tesla-Aims-to-Charge-their-EVs-in-Five-Minutes-tp4664358.html
        Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
        _______________________________________________
        UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
        http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
        For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)


        _______________________________________________
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        ------------------------------

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        End of EV Digest, Vol 9, Issue 30
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