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EV Digest, Vol 8, Issue 30

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    Message 1 of 2 , Mar 9, 2008
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      Today's Topics:

      1. Re: Is this Baldor motor OK ? (20HP, 3 phase, 158 pounds,
      3450 RPM...) How fast can I run a 3450 RPM motor ? (Jeff Major)
      2. Re: Then which Baldor motor ? (Jeff Major)


      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Message: 1
      Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 11:37:09 -0700 (PDT)
      From: Jeff Major <jff_mjr@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Is this Baldor motor OK ? (20HP, 3 phase, 158
      pounds, 3450 RPM...) How fast can I run a 3450 RPM motor ?
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <769465.44900.qm@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1


      --- me2 <altenguy@...> wrote:

      >
      > More data:
      >
      > Product Nameplate Data :
      > Rated Output 20 HP Hertz 60 NEMA Nom. Eff.
      > 90.2
      > Volts 230/460 Phase 3 Power Factor 86
      > Full Load Amps 48/24 NEMA Design Code B
      > Service Factor 1.15
      > Speed 3525 LR KVA Code G Rating - Duty 40C
      > AMB-CONT
      >
      > (Typical performance - Not guaranteed values)
      > General Characterstics at 460 V, 60 Hz, 20 HP
      > Full Load Torque 29.9 LB-FT Starting Current
      > 153 Amps
      > Start Configuration DOL No-Load Current 9.5
      > Amps
      > Break Down Torque 94 LB-FT Line-line Resistance
      > @ 25? C 0.532 Ohms
      > Pull-Up Torque 33 LB-FT Temperature Rise, C @ FL
      > (in deg) 49
      > Locked-Roter Torque 42.8 LB-FT Temp. Rise @ S.F.
      > Load (in deg) 57
      > Load Characteristics at 460 V, 60 Hz , 20 HP
      > % of Rated Load 25 50 75 100 125 150 S.F.
      > Power Factor 51 73 82 87 89 89 0
      > Efficiency 83.5 89 90.4 90.6 90.2 89.5 0
      > Speed (rpm) 3584 3569 3552 3535 3517 3497 0
      > Line Amperes 11.1 14.5 19 23.9 29.4 35.2
      > 27.2
      >
      > What is break down torque ?

      Hi me2,

      Breakdown torque is the maximum running torque output
      for an induction motor at the specified frequency and
      voltage. You will notice that the locked rotor torque
      is less than breakdown, 42.8 vs 94. This is very much
      different than series wound DC motors, where the
      locked rotor torque is the maximum. When you use a
      variable frequency drive with an induction motor, you
      can in fact get greater than the 60 Hz locked rotor
      torque to start from stall by reduced frequency and
      voltage.

      Breakdown torque occurs at a relatively high slip and
      in most cases cannot be considered an operation load.

      Regards,

      Jeff M


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
      Looking for last minute shopping deals?
      Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping



      ------------------------------

      Message: 2
      Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 11:48:51 -0700 (PDT)
      From: Jeff Major <jff_mjr@...>
      Subject: Re: [EVDL] Then which Baldor motor ?
      To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
      Message-ID: <926379.56228.qm@...>
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1


      --- me2 <altenguy@...> wrote:
      >
      > "I think all Baldor AC motors are induction motors."
      >
      > If all Baldor AC motors are induction (and not
      > synchronous) then which motor
      > should I select ?
      >
      > Obviously Baldor way overbuilds their motors.
      > Their 5KW motors weigh 150
      > pounds !

      Hi me2,

      I don't think Baldor "overbuilds their motors". My
      impression is they build a suitable quality product
      for the market (industrial NEMA motors). I am not
      aware of a Baldor product intended for EVs. As to
      which Baldor product you should select, I'd advise not
      to. Stick to what works for EVs. Taking an
      industrial induction motor and adapting it to an EV
      application is not an easy task, certainly not
      recommended for a beginner.

      Regards,

      Jeff M


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
      http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs



      ------------------------------

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      End of EV Digest, Vol 8, Issue 30
      *********************************
    • ev-request@...
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      Message 2 of 2 , Jun 19, 2013
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        Today's Topics:

        1. Re: Did Tesla steal my battery design? (David Rees)
        2. Re: 914 Driving Observations (Crash)
        3. what a plate (R Willis)
        4. Re: Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo! (Lee Hart)
        5. Re: Did Tesla steal my battery design? (Cruisin)
        6. Re: Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo! (Peri Hartman)
        7. Re: Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo!
        (Bruce EVangel Parmenter)
        8. Resistance (Theoldcars@...)
        9. Re: Resistance (Cor van de Water)
        10. Re: Resistance (David Nelson)
        11. Re: 914 Driving Observations (Peter C. Thompson)
        12. Re: Resistance (Bill Dube)
        13. Re: Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo!
        (EVDL Administrator)
        14. Re: Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo!
        (Lawrence Winiarski)
        15. Re: Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo! (Mike Nickerson)


        ----------------------------------------------------------------------

        Message: 1
        Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 13:25:58 -0700
        From: David Rees <drees76@...>
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] Did Tesla steal my battery design?
        Message-ID:
        <CAHtT9RskUj0=8QG43=PE+mpdAWTS7yA0osU8Cq4k8d7WWkib+Q@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

        On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 12:41 PM, EVDL Administrator <evpost@...> wrote:
        > On 18 Jun 2013 at 14:35, Sean Korb wrote:
        >> If Tesla tried to patent this system you could easily claim prior art.
        >
        > Maybe I'm missing something, but it's hard for me to imagine >anyone<
        > succesfully patenting series-parallel connection of multiple cells. That
        > art is as "prior" as it gets! Even if you consider the use of a BMS, it's
        > essentially the same design as laptop computer batteries, just on a much
        > larger scale, no?

        Tesla has quite a few patents regarding the design of their pack.

        This thread on TMC has details on a few:
        http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/17456-Amazing-Core-Tesla-Battery-IP-18650-Cell

        Very few of them have much to do with the basics of assembling cells
        into a large pack, but rather how to do so as inexpensively as
        possible and how to do so while keeping the pack from blowing up show
        a cell or two explode. Most of the patents I've seen are rather
        non-obvious in nature.

        -Dave


        ------------------------------

        Message: 2
        Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 07:18:10 -0700 (PDT)
        From: Crash <ganhaar@...>
        To: ev@...
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] 914 Driving Observations
        Message-ID: <1371651490601-4663676.post@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

        Peter,
        I note from an earlier post that you were running a Greatland brushless
        motor and controller. I'm interested to hear how their products have
        performed assuming you have had some time running with them now.

        regards
        Wayne



        --
        View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/914-Driving-Observations-tp4662838p4663676.html
        Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


        ------------------------------

        Message: 3
        Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 17:27:59 -0400
        From: R Willis <evcar@...>
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
        Subject: [EVDL] what a plate
        Message-ID: <20130619212840.34D1A48131@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

        i am learing that the plate needs to be sent over and cut on a water jet
        its way faster and less stress

        the adapter plate is cut and ready
        the crank adapter has to be drilled and tapped

        yes i hope to be among the electrified soon


        Richard willis

        519-896-3354 office
        rdw@...

        http://www.evalbum.com/4612

        www.evareus.com



        ------------------------------

        Message: 4
        Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 17:47:13 -0500
        From: Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo!
        Message-ID: <51C234F1.3080800@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

        Lawrence Winiarski
        > If they want to play by the letter of the law, then buy a little gas powered
        > generator (less than $100) and put it in the seat, then re-register it as a
        > hybrid. (i.e. no special tax for hybrids)

        That's an interesting angle. You'd have to read the law very carefully,
        to see what they define as a "hybrid". Maybe a little gasoline engine
        generator would qualify; maybe not. As Peri Hartman pointed out, it may
        then have to meet emissions standards.

        If you're lucky, they defined "hybrid" in such loose terms that you
        won't need an ICE to qualify. Maybe a battery-solar hybrid? Or a
        battery-human powered hybrid? :-)

        --
        Failure is only the opportunity to begin again more intelligently.
        -- Henry Ford
        --
        Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm


        ------------------------------

        Message: 5
        Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 15:51:12 -0700 (PDT)
        From: Cruisin <cruisin@...>
        To: ev@...
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] Did Tesla steal my battery design?
        Message-ID: <1371682272474-4663687.post@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

        When compiling the cells in battery packs, a couple of priority's come to
        mind that it seems people are forgetting. Most important is the size of
        connectors designed for the expectant current. Second is the overall weight
        which can be substantial. Using a 1.3ah cell would give you twice the weight
        when using a newer more expensive 2.6ah cell, totaling the same kwh. Tesla
        engineers said that I had a excellent design, even though I don have a EE
        degree. It is amazing what we can do if we really want to.



        --
        View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Did-Tesla-steal-my-battery-design-tp4663646p4663687.html
        Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


        ------------------------------

        Message: 6
        Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 15:53:21 -0700
        From: "Peri Hartman" <perih@...>
        To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo!
        Message-ID: <CBE1218E293449F2B8C5ED5CDA0DC9E2@perilaptop>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

        Here are a couple refs I found:

        http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.04.204
        which says simply:
        "Hybrid motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle that uses multiple power
        sources or fuel types for propulsion and meets the federal definition of a
        hybrid motor vehicle.

        And, from the IRS:
        http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Qualified-Alternative-Fuel-Motor-Vehicles-(QAF
        MV)-and--Heavy-Hybrid-Vehicles
        which says:
        ... Qualifying Alternative fuels include compressed natural gas, liquefied
        natural gas, liquefied petroleum gas, hydrogen and any liquid at least 85
        percent of the volume of which consists of methanol...

        Dig hard - you might find a "better" federal definition :)

        Peri

        -----Original Message-----
        From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
        Of Lee Hart
        Sent: 19 June, 2013 3:47 PM
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo!

        Lawrence Winiarski
        > If they want to play by the letter of the law, then buy a little gas
        powered
        > generator (less than $100) and put it in the seat, then re-register it as
        a
        > hybrid. (i.e. no special tax for hybrids)

        That's an interesting angle. You'd have to read the law very carefully,
        to see what they define as a "hybrid". Maybe a little gasoline engine
        generator would qualify; maybe not. As Peri Hartman pointed out, it may
        then have to meet emissions standards.

        If you're lucky, they defined "hybrid" in such loose terms that you
        won't need an ICE to qualify. Maybe a battery-solar hybrid? Or a
        battery-human powered hybrid? :-)

        --
        Failure is only the opportunity to begin again more intelligently.
        -- Henry Ford
        --
        Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
        _______________________________________________
        UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
        http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
        For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
        (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)





        ------------------------------

        Message: 7
        Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 16:44:31 -0700
        From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <brucedp5@...>
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo!
        Message-ID:
        <1371685471.6242.140661246012973.281D1978@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain

        I think the WA $100/yr EV road tax law was written poorly, and I do not
        see it being illegal to use its own flaws/loopholes against it.

        The idea of going in to change your vehicle type to hybrid by having a
        small genset on-board (making your EV now a serial hybrid) is not bad.
        After you get the DMV to change your vehicle type to hybrid, you can
        remove the genset and go back to driving in EV mode (no one is going to
        check on you). If anyone asks why your vehicle is listed as a hybrid,
        tell them the ice/genset is detachable, and you usually only use it for
        cross-country road-trips.

        But which genset would to be subject to smog laws. It would not have to
        be a large genset. It just needs enough kW capacity to power the level-1
        on-board charger, or do a trickle charge to the pack, as there are
        likely no laws specifying how much a genset puts into a pack to qualify
        the vehicle as now a hybrid.

        If you got a smog-check letter, what gensets would pass their tests?
        At first I looked at gensets running off cleaner fuels, but they are so
        large and or expensive. It would not make sense/cents to spend $1000+
        just to save $100 a year: it would take 10+ years to break even. Some
        may know they are going to keep their EV for over five years, and or
        also plan to rent out their genset add-on for changing other driver's
        vehicle type to hybrid. In either case, it might be worth the costs and
        effort (a $500 total expenditure would break even in 5 years, or renting
        it out would also cover costs with enough drivers doing same).

        A search let me find there are small CARB compliant and EPA approved
        gensets that run off gasoline. Their capacity would only need to run a
        level-1 charger, or if the genset was too tiny, possibly squeak-by using
        a home-brew (half-wave) charger that drew less current(?). Here is a
        list of links of CARB / EPA approved gensets to explore:

        http://www.absolutegenerators.com/p155-All-Power-America-APG3004C-1000W-1-5-HP-Generator-EPA-CARB.html
        http://www.absolutegenerators.com/CARB-Compliant-Generators-c14_8.html
        http://www.wayfair.com/Powerhouse-1000Wi-1000-Watt-Inverter-Generator-61356-PWH1008.html
        http://www.wayfair.com/Generac-1400-Watt-Inverter-Generator-CARB-Approved-5842-GDN1296.html
        http://www.ebay.com/itm/2700W-REMOTE-KEY-START-DIGITAL-INVERTER-RV-GAS-GENERATOR-W-EPA-CARB-APPROVED-/170891866292
        http://www.sears.com/powerhouse-professional-series-ph2100pri-inverter-generator-carb-compliant/p-07195923000P?prdNo=20&blockNo=20&blockType=G20



        {brucedp.150m.com}



        -
        On Wed, Jun 19, 2013, at 03:47 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
        > Lawrence Winiarski
        > > If they want to play by the letter of the law, then buy a little gas powered
        > > generator (less than $100) and put it in the seat, then re-register it as a
        > > hybrid. (i.e. no special tax for hybrids)
        >
        > That's an interesting angle. You'd have to read the law very carefully,
        > to see what they define as a "hybrid". Maybe a little gasoline engine
        > generator would qualify; maybe not. As Peri Hartman pointed out, it may
        > then have to meet emissions standards.
        >
        > If you're lucky, they defined "hybrid" in such loose terms that you
        > won't need an ICE to qualify. Maybe a battery-solar hybrid? Or a
        > battery-human powered hybrid? :-)
        -

        --
        http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service



        ------------------------------

        Message: 8
        Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 20:07:54 -0400 (EDT)
        From: Theoldcars@...
        To: ev@...
        Subject: [EVDL] Resistance
        Message-ID: <d2343.e374b7c.3ef3a1da@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

        It still does not answer or address where the energy comes from that was
        loss in raising the cell or cells with the higher resistance over ambient
        temperature.

        Yes the energy delivered to each cell in series is equal, but the loss of
        energy as heat is not. This would be on both charging and discharging.

        As an example NiMH cells in the past have a very high self discharge
        rate. You can charge up a pack and they lose energy while reaching a full
        charge. Cells that have higher resistance or are in a higher state of charge
        lose more energy as heat then the others. If you let the pack sit in a fully
        charged state they self discharge and the energy loss produces heat. Enough
        that it actually helps keep the pack warmer in the winter.

        Once a NiMH pack has reached a full charge the only way it will retain the
        same amount of energy is if you replace the energy lost as heat.

        Your saying "Still, if the heat does no damage and does not affect
        efficiency of
        accepting charge"

        It does affect the efficiency of accepting a charge and that added heat
        also causes a higher rate of degradation to the warmer cells.

        Since energy is not created but only changes form, some energy is lost as
        heat.

        Yes if all the cells had the same resistance and no other factors involved
        the energy retained in each cell would be the exact same amount.

        Having heat without a loss of energy in the cells would be the equivalent
        of a perpetual motion machine.

        Don Blazer



        In a message dated 6/19/2013 7:01:51 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
        ev-request@... writes:

        Message: 1
        Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 13:04:28 -0700
        From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
        To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] Resistance
        Message-ID:
        <A73BC4B8B3218642A56A2C9EB01B44E001CE1C05@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

        Indeed. Current in a series string is equal (by definition).
        Only thing that is suffering from the internal resistance is the
        *Voltage*.
        When charging, the bad (high resistance) cell will cause a voltage drop
        across its resistance, causing extra heating and higher voltage (this is
        the loss that you were expecting, turning energy into heat) but the cell
        is still charged with the same current, so it just runs hotter
        (depending on charge current, cooling and other factors).
        When discharging (driving the EV) the internal resistance causes a
        voltage drop that *reduces* the apparent cell voltage (Bill sketched the
        model: a resistor in series with an ideal cell, we call the value of
        that resistor the internal resistance). This voltage drop again causes
        heating of the cell, which can be excessive if the voltage drop is large
        - if the internal resistance is large enough, the output voltage can
        even become *negative* which means that the voltage drop across the
        resistance is larger than the output of the cell. In those cases it is
        better to remove the cell from the string, not only due to the bad
        efficiency but more due to the risk to set fire to the battery pack. One
        example to illustrate:
        Say we have Lithium cells (any chemistry, but say the cell is at 3.5V
        rest voltage).
        Due to construction or abuse, the internal resistance of the cell has
        increased to 10 mOhm and you try to pull 500A from the string of cells.
        The resistor drops 0.01 (Ohm) * 500A = 5V while the cell tries to
        deliver 3.5V so if you measure the terminals of the cell under this
        load, you will see the cell at 3.5 -5 = -1.5V.
        The ideal cell is delivering a power of 3.5V * 500A = 1750 Watts.
        The internal resistance is sucking up and producing heat to the tune of
        5V * 500A = 2500 Watts.
        Total power delivered by the damaged cell is -750 Watts (it is consuming
        750 Watts of power from the adjacent cell by dropping part of the
        adjacent cell delivered voltage across its internal resistance)

        Still, if the heat does no damage and does not affect efficiency of
        accepting charge, then the high-resistance cell will stay in balance, it
        will just be inefficient and possibly disastrous in its operation if the
        internal resitance causes dangerous heating to occur. It is comparable
        in electrical effect to a bad (corroded) terminal on a lead-acid
        battery, which can (and has, on my truck) heat up to the point of
        burning itself off the battery. However, in case of Lithium, an
        overheating cell can be quite dangerous while it is rare that a
        lead-acid battery burns.

        Hope this clarifies,

        Cor van de Water
        Chief Scientist
        Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
        Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
        Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


        -----Original Message-----
        From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
        Behalf Of Bill Dube
        Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:54 PM
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] Resistance

        Intuition would make you think so, but your intuition turns out to be
        wrong in this case.

        Reread Lee Hart's post on this subject. He has it correct.

        All cells get/produce the same current because they are in series. The
        cells all are charged and discharged at the identical rate. Thus, have
        the identical state of charge. Any imbalance is caused by unequal
        self-discharge, which is a strongly influenced by temperature.

        The variations in temperature are indeed caused by variations in
        internal resistance. You can visualize that resistance as a separate
        resistor in series with the (ideal) cell. It does not influence the
        state of charge because the current is the same in all cells.

        It is the fact that the current is identical that is the key. All
        electrons that enter one end of the string emerge on the other end. None

        are lost. Each electron flips an ion in each cell. Whatever voltage is
        needed is what there _will_ be, or electron flow will stop.

        True fact.

        Bill Dube'


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        ------------------------------

        Message: 9
        Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 17:11:37 -0700
        From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
        To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] Resistance
        Message-ID:
        <A73BC4B8B3218642A56A2C9EB01B44E001CE1D3A@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

        Don,

        Please read my explanation and pay attention to the fact that
        - the charger needs to provide a higher voltage (so, more energy)
        to feed power into the cell PLUS the internal resistance.
        - the discharge delivers LOWER voltage, due to the energy lost
        across the internal resistance, reducing the output voltage
        and thus the delivered power, due to the power lost in the
        internal resistance.

        The info that you are looking for is already in the answer I provided
        earlier.

        Regards,

        Cor van de Water
        Chief Scientist
        Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
        Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
        Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


        -----Original Message-----
        From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
        Behalf Of Theoldcars@...
        Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 5:08 PM
        To: ev@...
        Subject: [EVDL] Resistance

        It still does not answer or address where the energy comes from that was

        loss in raising the cell or cells with the higher resistance over
        ambient
        temperature.

        Yes the energy delivered to each cell in series is equal, but the loss
        of
        energy as heat is not. This would be on both charging and discharging.

        As an example NiMH cells in the past have a very high self discharge
        rate. You can charge up a pack and they lose energy while reaching a
        full
        charge. Cells that have higher resistance or are in a higher state of
        charge
        lose more energy as heat then the others. If you let the pack sit in a
        fully
        charged state they self discharge and the energy loss produces heat.
        Enough
        that it actually helps keep the pack warmer in the winter.

        Once a NiMH pack has reached a full charge the only way it will retain
        the
        same amount of energy is if you replace the energy lost as heat.

        Your saying "Still, if the heat does no damage and does not affect
        efficiency of
        accepting charge"

        It does affect the efficiency of accepting a charge and that added heat

        also causes a higher rate of degradation to the warmer cells.

        Since energy is not created but only changes form, some energy is lost
        as
        heat.

        Yes if all the cells had the same resistance and no other factors
        involved
        the energy retained in each cell would be the exact same amount.

        Having heat without a loss of energy in the cells would be the
        equivalent
        of a perpetual motion machine.

        Don Blazer



        In a message dated 6/19/2013 7:01:51 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
        ev-request@... writes:

        Message: 1
        Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 13:04:28 -0700
        From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
        To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] Resistance
        Message-ID:
        <A73BC4B8B3218642A56A2C9EB01B44E001CE1C05@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

        Indeed. Current in a series string is equal (by definition).
        Only thing that is suffering from the internal resistance is the
        *Voltage*.
        When charging, the bad (high resistance) cell will cause a voltage drop
        across its resistance, causing extra heating and higher voltage (this
        is
        the loss that you were expecting, turning energy into heat) but the
        cell
        is still charged with the same current, so it just runs hotter
        (depending on charge current, cooling and other factors).
        When discharging (driving the EV) the internal resistance causes a
        voltage drop that *reduces* the apparent cell voltage (Bill sketched
        the
        model: a resistor in series with an ideal cell, we call the value of
        that resistor the internal resistance). This voltage drop again causes
        heating of the cell, which can be excessive if the voltage drop is
        large
        - if the internal resistance is large enough, the output voltage can
        even become *negative* which means that the voltage drop across the
        resistance is larger than the output of the cell. In those cases it is
        better to remove the cell from the string, not only due to the bad
        efficiency but more due to the risk to set fire to the battery pack.
        One
        example to illustrate:
        Say we have Lithium cells (any chemistry, but say the cell is at 3.5V
        rest voltage).
        Due to construction or abuse, the internal resistance of the cell has
        increased to 10 mOhm and you try to pull 500A from the string of cells.
        The resistor drops 0.01 (Ohm) * 500A = 5V while the cell tries to
        deliver 3.5V so if you measure the terminals of the cell under this
        load, you will see the cell at 3.5 -5 = -1.5V.
        The ideal cell is delivering a power of 3.5V * 500A = 1750 Watts.
        The internal resistance is sucking up and producing heat to the tune of
        5V * 500A = 2500 Watts.
        Total power delivered by the damaged cell is -750 Watts (it is
        consuming
        750 Watts of power from the adjacent cell by dropping part of the
        adjacent cell delivered voltage across its internal resistance)

        Still, if the heat does no damage and does not affect efficiency of
        accepting charge, then the high-resistance cell will stay in balance,
        it
        will just be inefficient and possibly disastrous in its operation if
        the
        internal resitance causes dangerous heating to occur. It is comparable
        in electrical effect to a bad (corroded) terminal on a lead-acid
        battery, which can (and has, on my truck) heat up to the point of
        burning itself off the battery. However, in case of Lithium, an
        overheating cell can be quite dangerous while it is rare that a
        lead-acid battery burns.

        Hope this clarifies,

        Cor van de Water
        Chief Scientist
        Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
        Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
        Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


        -----Original Message-----
        From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
        Behalf Of Bill Dube
        Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:54 PM
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] Resistance

        Intuition would make you think so, but your intuition turns out to be
        wrong in this case.

        Reread Lee Hart's post on this subject. He has it correct.

        All cells get/produce the same current because they are in series. The
        cells all are charged and discharged at the identical rate. Thus, have
        the identical state of charge. Any imbalance is caused by unequal
        self-discharge, which is a strongly influenced by temperature.

        The variations in temperature are indeed caused by variations in
        internal resistance. You can visualize that resistance as a separate
        resistor in series with the (ideal) cell. It does not influence the
        state of charge because the current is the same in all cells.

        It is the fact that the current is identical that is the key. All
        electrons that enter one end of the string emerge on the other end.
        None

        are lost. Each electron flips an ion in each cell. Whatever voltage is
        needed is what there _will_ be, or electron flow will stop.

        True fact.

        Bill Dube'


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        ------------------------------

        Message: 10
        Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 17:45:29 -0700
        From: David Nelson <gizmoev@...>
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] Resistance
        Message-ID:
        <CALxN3-jh9PfTdJ1E7JZnVKjwGAVpRpQHQQLzrG1H+i3LAcbpsw@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

        Don,

        You are confusing charge with energy. That is what several have been
        trying to get across. Remember that power is the product of voltage
        and current. The energy, in this case, is the product of power and
        time. This is where the Watt-hour or kilowatt-hour comes from.

        Consider two ideal cells each with a capacity of 1Ah. One cell is a 1V
        cell and the other is a 2V cell. Hook these in series and you have a
        3V battery. Suppose that the two cells are each at 0%SOC. Hook the
        battery to a powersupply and supply 1A of current at 3V for 1 hour. (I
        know that there has to be a voltage difference but bare with me for a
        moment.) During charging, 3V * 1A = 3W of power is being put into the
        battery pack. The first cell is receiving 1V * 1A = 1W of power and
        the second cell is receiving 2V * 1A = 2W of power. At the end of 1
        hour each cell has received 1A * 1h = 1Ah of _charge_ but the first
        cell has received 1W * 1h = 1Wh of _energy_ and the second cell has
        received 2W * 1h = 2Wh of _energy_. The total energy into the battery
        pack is 3Wh. Energy is conserved.

        Note that one cell received twice the energy but exactly the same
        number of Ah. In keeping a battery pack balanced we are not concerned
        with keeping the energy in each cell the at a matched state, we are
        concerned with keeping the _charge_ in each cell at a matched state.
        We are concerned with State of Charge, not State of Energy. This is
        why, as Cor pointed out, two cells with vastly different IR but the
        same charge capacity, when starting at the same State of Charge, can
        run out of charge, and thus energy, at the same time even if the
        energy each delivers is vastly different.

        HTH,

        On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Cor van de Water <CWater@...> wrote:
        > Don,
        >
        > Please read my explanation and pay attention to the fact that
        > - the charger needs to provide a higher voltage (so, more energy)
        > to feed power into the cell PLUS the internal resistance.
        > - the discharge delivers LOWER voltage, due to the energy lost
        > across the internal resistance, reducing the output voltage
        > and thus the delivered power, due to the power lost in the
        > internal resistance.
        >
        > The info that you are looking for is already in the answer I provided
        > earlier.
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Cor van de Water
        > Chief Scientist
        > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
        > Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
        > Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
        > Behalf Of Theoldcars@...
        > Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 5:08 PM
        > To: ev@...
        > Subject: [EVDL] Resistance
        >
        > It still does not answer or address where the energy comes from that was
        >
        > loss in raising the cell or cells with the higher resistance over
        > ambient
        > temperature.
        >
        > Yes the energy delivered to each cell in series is equal, but the loss
        > of
        > energy as heat is not. This would be on both charging and discharging.
        >
        > As an example NiMH cells in the past have a very high self discharge
        > rate. You can charge up a pack and they lose energy while reaching a
        > full
        > charge. Cells that have higher resistance or are in a higher state of
        > charge
        > lose more energy as heat then the others. If you let the pack sit in a
        > fully
        > charged state they self discharge and the energy loss produces heat.
        > Enough
        > that it actually helps keep the pack warmer in the winter.
        >
        > Once a NiMH pack has reached a full charge the only way it will retain
        > the
        > same amount of energy is if you replace the energy lost as heat.
        >
        > Your saying "Still, if the heat does no damage and does not affect
        > efficiency of
        > accepting charge"
        >
        > It does affect the efficiency of accepting a charge and that added heat
        >
        > also causes a higher rate of degradation to the warmer cells.
        >
        > Since energy is not created but only changes form, some energy is lost
        > as
        > heat.
        >
        > Yes if all the cells had the same resistance and no other factors
        > involved
        > the energy retained in each cell would be the exact same amount.
        >
        > Having heat without a loss of energy in the cells would be the
        > equivalent
        > of a perpetual motion machine.
        >
        > Don Blazer
        >
        >
        >
        > In a message dated 6/19/2013 7:01:51 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
        > ev-request@... writes:
        >
        > Message: 1
        > Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 13:04:28 -0700
        > From: "Cor van de Water" <CWater@...>
        > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
        > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Resistance
        > Message-ID:
        > <A73BC4B8B3218642A56A2C9EB01B44E001CE1C05@...>
        > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
        >
        > Indeed. Current in a series string is equal (by definition).
        > Only thing that is suffering from the internal resistance is the
        > *Voltage*.
        > When charging, the bad (high resistance) cell will cause a voltage drop
        > across its resistance, causing extra heating and higher voltage (this
        > is
        > the loss that you were expecting, turning energy into heat) but the
        > cell
        > is still charged with the same current, so it just runs hotter
        > (depending on charge current, cooling and other factors).
        > When discharging (driving the EV) the internal resistance causes a
        > voltage drop that *reduces* the apparent cell voltage (Bill sketched
        > the
        > model: a resistor in series with an ideal cell, we call the value of
        > that resistor the internal resistance). This voltage drop again causes
        > heating of the cell, which can be excessive if the voltage drop is
        > large
        > - if the internal resistance is large enough, the output voltage can
        > even become *negative* which means that the voltage drop across the
        > resistance is larger than the output of the cell. In those cases it is
        > better to remove the cell from the string, not only due to the bad
        > efficiency but more due to the risk to set fire to the battery pack.
        > One
        > example to illustrate:
        > Say we have Lithium cells (any chemistry, but say the cell is at 3.5V
        > rest voltage).
        > Due to construction or abuse, the internal resistance of the cell has
        > increased to 10 mOhm and you try to pull 500A from the string of cells.
        > The resistor drops 0.01 (Ohm) * 500A = 5V while the cell tries to
        > deliver 3.5V so if you measure the terminals of the cell under this
        > load, you will see the cell at 3.5 -5 = -1.5V.
        > The ideal cell is delivering a power of 3.5V * 500A = 1750 Watts.
        > The internal resistance is sucking up and producing heat to the tune of
        > 5V * 500A = 2500 Watts.
        > Total power delivered by the damaged cell is -750 Watts (it is
        > consuming
        > 750 Watts of power from the adjacent cell by dropping part of the
        > adjacent cell delivered voltage across its internal resistance)
        >
        > Still, if the heat does no damage and does not affect efficiency of
        > accepting charge, then the high-resistance cell will stay in balance,
        > it
        > will just be inefficient and possibly disastrous in its operation if
        > the
        > internal resitance causes dangerous heating to occur. It is comparable
        > in electrical effect to a bad (corroded) terminal on a lead-acid
        > battery, which can (and has, on my truck) heat up to the point of
        > burning itself off the battery. However, in case of Lithium, an
        > overheating cell can be quite dangerous while it is rare that a
        > lead-acid battery burns.
        >
        > Hope this clarifies,
        >
        > Cor van de Water
        > Chief Scientist
        > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
        > Email: CWater@... Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
        > Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
        > Behalf Of Bill Dube
        > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:54 PM
        > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
        > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Resistance
        >
        > Intuition would make you think so, but your intuition turns out to be
        > wrong in this case.
        >
        > Reread Lee Hart's post on this subject. He has it correct.
        >
        > All cells get/produce the same current because they are in series. The
        > cells all are charged and discharged at the identical rate. Thus, have
        > the identical state of charge. Any imbalance is caused by unequal
        > self-discharge, which is a strongly influenced by temperature.
        >
        > The variations in temperature are indeed caused by variations in
        > internal resistance. You can visualize that resistance as a separate
        > resistor in series with the (ideal) cell. It does not influence the
        > state of charge because the current is the same in all cells.
        >
        > It is the fact that the current is identical that is the key. All
        > electrons that enter one end of the string emerge on the other end.
        > None
        >
        > are lost. Each electron flips an ion in each cell. Whatever voltage is
        > needed is what there _will_ be, or electron flow will stop.
        >
        > True fact.
        >
        > Bill Dube'
        >
        >
        > -------------- next part --------------
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        > _______________________________________________
        > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
        > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
        > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
        > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
        >
        > _______________________________________________
        > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
        > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
        > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
        >



        --
        David D. Nelson
        http://evalbum.com/1328
        http://www.levforum.com

        Nokia Lumia 920 Windows Phone 8


        ------------------------------

        Message: 11
        Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 18:48:11 -0700
        From: "Peter C. Thompson" <peter@...>
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] 914 Driving Observations
        Message-ID: <51C25F5B.7080804@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

        Hi Wayne,

        The motor appears to be very solid, but I'm having a lot of trouble with
        severe noise in the controller. I haven't had time to track down
        whether it is from the controller or the DC-DC, due to family illness
        taking my "spare" time. Now that things have settled at home, I hope to
        resolve that particular issue.

        Biggest complaint: motor is limited to 4000RPM, when it is rated to
        5000RPM.
        Second complaint: getting support from the factory required having a
        friend in Shenzen bother the factory until they helped out.
        Third complaint: getting software to update/change parameters in the
        controller almost impossible. Except for another friend that provided
        me with a CD that has chinese software on it that *might* be able to
        help me. Again, untested due to time restrictions.

        So other than the fact I have no tach, no info from the controller, it's
        fine. :) Lots of torque, very responsive (unlike the factory).

        Cheers, Peter

        On 6/19/13 7:18 AM, Crash wrote:
        > Peter,
        > I note from an earlier post that you were running a Greatland brushless
        > motor and controller. I'm interested to hear how their products have
        > performed assuming you have had some time running with them now.
        >
        > regards
        > Wayne
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/914-Driving-Observations-tp4662838p4663676.html
        > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
        > _______________________________________________
        > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
        > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
        > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
        >
        >



        ------------------------------

        Message: 12
        Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 19:52:56 -0600
        From: Bill Dube <billdube@...>
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] Resistance
        Message-ID: <51C26078.4030703@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

        The cells heat on both charge, and on discharge. (Ohmic heating has no
        polarity.)

        Again, no electrons are lost. They all go around the entire circuit
        without losing a single one. Each electron flips a chemical ion from one
        plate to the other plate through the electrolyte.

        With Li-Ion cells, unless the electron is forced to flip the wrong ion
        (like when you over charge, or over discharge and damage the battery,)
        there is a one-to-one ratio to the electron flow and the state of charge.

        Bill D.


        ------------------------------

        Message: 13
        Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 22:53:08 -0400
        From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo!
        Message-ID: <51C23654.9008.28692D99@...>

        On 19 Jun 2013 at 16:44, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:

        > A search let me find there are small CARB compliant and EPA approved
        > gensets that run off gasoline.

        I'm not sure, but I think from what I've read that "CARB compliant" means
        that they meet CARB standards for stationary emissions sources. They might
        also meet the standards for vehicle propulsion sources, but I think that
        those are stricter. They may also use different units - units per mile vs
        units per hour of operation, IIRC.

        However, I don't live in CA, so maybe someone more familiar with these
        regulations can comment.

        David Roden
        EVDL Administrator
        http://www.evdl.org/




        ------------------------------

        Message: 14
        Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 20:39:54 -0700 (PDT)
        From: Lawrence Winiarski <lawrence_winiarski@...>
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo!
        Message-ID: <1371699594.909.YahooMailNeo@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

        Aww C'mon, ? We need more out of the box thinking about how stupid the damn law is...........

        How about one of these
        http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-HOT-AIR-STIRLING-ENGINE-ELECTRICITY-POWER-GENERATOR-FUNNY-TOY-WITH-4-LEDs-/130579019978?pt=Model_Kit_US&hash=item1e671db8ca?

        (hot air stirling engine w/ generator)

        Then you can say it's a hybrid powered by the hot-air that comes off the state legislature.

        ......Or how about adding a stupid removable wind generator on top :_-)))))... ? ( I wish I had a dollar for every time someone suggested that to me ). ? Now I can claim a wind powered
        hybrid and power my?ev taxes on pure stupidity.

        Or maybe just a regen option....then it can be a gravity powered hybrid

        The possibilities are endless......

        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

        If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged world.
        Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 023934


        ________________________________
        From: EVDL Administrator <evpost@...>
        To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>
        Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 7:53 PM
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo!


        On 19 Jun 2013 at 16:44, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:

        > A search let me find there are small CARB compliant and EPA approved
        > gensets that run off gasoline.

        I'm not sure, but I think from what I've read that "CARB compliant" means
        that they meet CARB standards for stationary emissions sources.? They might
        also meet the standards for vehicle propulsion sources, but I think that
        those are stricter.? They may also use different units - units per mile vs
        units per hour of operation, IIRC.

        However, I don't live in CA, so maybe someone more familiar with these
        regulations can comment.

        David Roden
        EVDL Administrator
        http://www.evdl.org/


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        ------------------------------

        Message: 15
        Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 00:30:29 -0600
        From: "Mike Nickerson" <mike@...>
        To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
        Subject: Re: [EVDL] Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo!
        Message-ID: <0cbd01ce6d7f$aa79b460$ff6d1d20$@...>
        Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

        David,

        Not trying to be rude, but it is a Gizmo that you are talking about. If you
        showed up with the vehicle and didn't say anything, do you really think the
        DMV person would know it was originally designed to 40 mph and would assume
        it should pay the $100 annual fee? I wouldn't say it was an NEV, but one
        could easily make that assumption by looking at it. Especially someone
        unfamiliar with the vehicle.

        Mike

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
        > Behalf Of David Nelson
        > Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 4:29 PM
        > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
        > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Washington State EV Tax applies to a Gizmo!
        >
        > Well I finally found the original bill at
        > http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2011-
        > 12/Pdf/Bills/Session%20Laws/House/2660.SL.pdf.
        > Unfortunately it very broadly defines an electric vehicle subject to the
        $100
        > annual fee as "A vehicle that is designed to have the capability to drive
        at a
        > speed of more than thirty-five miles per hour;". Notice that it doesn't
        have to
        > be able to go over 35mph, only that it is designed to have the capability
        to go
        > over 35mph. Well the original design of the Gizmo states 40mph as top
        > speed.
        >
        > I have no problem paying the fee for a full sized vehicle but one which
        > weighs less than 1000lbs shouldn't have such a high tax on it.
        > Especially when vehicles many times that much don't pay nearly the same
        > proportion in taxes.
        )



        ------------------------------

        _______________________________________________
        EV@...
        For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
        http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org


        End of EV Digest, Vol 8, Issue 30
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