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Re: "Greasy ghost"

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  • Mike Diamond
    I haven t seen a greasy ghost of the Lincoln Memorial. (Monticello is on the nickel) While it s an extensive feature, the Memorial is relatively shallow, so
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
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      I haven't seen a greasy ghost of the Lincoln Memorial. (Monticello is
      on the nickel) While it's an extensive feature, the Memorial is
      relatively shallow, so there won't be a huge change in effective
      striking pressure between field and building. Lincoln's bust, however,
      extends much deeper into the die face, although it's been made much
      shallower since the 1990's.

      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom"
      <goldpans@i...> wrote:
      > On Lincoln cents could the Monticello Building show thru on the
      obverse side instead of Lincolns bust on the reverse side?
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Mike Diamond
      > To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 5:01 PM
      > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: "Greasy ghost"
    • Mike Diamond
      These are clash marks. The terms die clash and clashed dies are also used. The two dies smacked together in the absence of a planchet. These clash marks
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 10, 2005
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        These are clash marks. The terms "die clash" and "clashed dies" are
        also used. The two dies smacked together in the absence of a
        planchet. These clash marks are rather fuzzy, so either they are old
        clash marks that have been affected by die wear, or the dies were
        abraded ("polished") in an attempt to remove them. Perhaps both
        processes account for the lack of clarity.

        Clash marks are much more common than "greasy ghosts".

        There are many sources of "ghost images" on coins. Probably close to
        a dozen.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Bunch"
        <goldpans@i...> wrote:
        > I loaded 6 photos of a ghost image in the default album
        > titled "ghost".
        > These pics clearly show the Lincoln Memorials columns and stairs on
        > the obverse.
        > The columns are visible under the "T" and "Y" on "LIBERTY" and 3 in
        > front of Lincolns mouth.
        > The stairs are visible extending from the forehead and back of head.
        > On the reverse the Memorials base is crooked and a few of the
        columns
        > appear "fat".
        > This cent also has a slightly rotated die.
        > This does not have Lincolns bust as a ghost, as mentioned ealier.
        > Is this a rarer error coin than one that is opposite and shows
        > Lincolns bust on the reverse, instead of mine which shows the
        > Memorial Building on the obverse?
      • Mike Diamond
        The dies were rotated when they clashed. Typically, when you have a rotated die error, any clash marks will display an identical amount of rotation.
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 10, 2005
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          The dies were rotated when they clashed. Typically, when you have a
          rotated die error, any clash marks will display an identical amount of
          rotation. Sometimes a rotation is corrected after a clash. In that
          case the clash marks will be rotated but the normal design will show a
          proper orientation.

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom"
          <goldpans@i...> wrote:
          > Would that also account for the amount of die rotation that is
          visible (Memorial Building) on both sides?
        • Mike Diamond
          The raised marks you see represent the bays between the columns. The area between the raised bars represent the columns themselves. When dies clash, the
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 10, 2005
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            The raised marks you see represent the bays between the columns. The
            area between the raised bars represent the columns themselves. When
            dies clash, the initial impression is created by the field portion of
            the die face, or those parts of the die face that lie at the same
            level as the field. These create an indentation in the opposite die,
            which show up as raised images on the coin. At the same time, metal
            rises up into the recesses of the opposite die (the columns),
            creating a positive image. That's transferred to the coin as an
            incuse, mirror image.

            Thus, clash marks are a mixture of raised and incuse mirror-image
            features. Typically, we speak of clash marks as being incuse, since
            it's the incuse impressions that actually represent the design.
            However, in the case of a light clash, you might detect only a raised
            image. So, for example, the Vermont quarter shows "flames" coming
            out of the maple-tapper's mouth. These are actually the recesses
            between the waves of Washington's hair.

            "Greasy ghosts" are always incuse.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Bunch"
            <goldpans@i...> wrote:
            > So clash marks are raised above the field, what about greasy ghosts?
          • Mike Diamond
            Die steel must have some capacity for deformation (strain). It probably shows a slight bit of resilience as well, since clash marks can sometimes appear on
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 10, 2005
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              Die steel must have some capacity for deformation (strain). It
              probably shows a slight bit of resilience as well, since clash marks
              can sometimes appear on the most convex part of the die face (the
              periphery), without any appreciable flattening of the coin's field.
              If it was extremely hard and brittle, it would indeed shatter upon
              impact. Even so, relative to coin metal, die steel is quite hard and
              brittle.

              Clash marks are common. Even very strong clash marks are not
              typically associated with die breakage. The dies on your coin were
              not retouched in any way. Only a few cases of retouching are known
              among coins from the latter half of the 20th century. Like the 1944-
              D half dollar with engraved designer initials "AW".

              Die rotation has at least three causes:

              1. incorrect installation
              2. incorrect grinding of guide marks (e.g., "flats"), leading to
              incorrect installation.
              3. spontaneous rotation of a loose die.

              Spontaneous rotations can be followed by re-tightening in the wrong
              position. Either die can rotate.

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Bunch"
              <goldpans@i...> wrote:
              > I worked in a machine shop 25 years ago and trying to think of the
              > dynamics of mint dies is slightly confusing.
              > From all I've noticed, die material is so hard that it would
              probably
              > chip, crack or shatter when a mistake is made (die clash).
              > Do you reckon that the "T" and "Y" in "LIBERTY" was recut after
              > polishing?
              > Polishing and die "touchup" probably also accounts for the crooked
              > base of the Memorial Building and the "fat" appearing columns.
              Right?
              > Would the slight die rotation indicate damage on other parts of the
              > die?
            • Mike Diamond
              The deformed columns and base are most likely due to a combination of die wear and die polishing. No touchup .
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 10, 2005
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                The deformed columns and base are most likely due to a combination of
                die wear and die polishing. No "touchup".

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Bunch"
                <goldpans@i...> wrote:
                >
                > Polishing and die "touchup" probably also accounts for the crooked
                > base of the Memorial Building and the "fat" appearing columns.
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