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clips

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  • Tom Bunch
    Did I let the cat out of the bag by mentioning the Blakesly Effect on clipped coins? I m seeing alot of clips on ebay now that shows the Blakesly Effect .
    Message 1 of 20 , May 30, 2005
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      Did I let the "cat out of the bag" by mentioning the Blakesly Effect on
      clipped coins?
      I'm seeing alot of clips on ebay now that shows the "Blakesly Effect".
      Since this looks easily copied I won't buy one.
    • Mike Diamond
      Knowledge of the Blakesley effect has been in the public domain for decades. So you haven t disclosed any sensitive information. While the Blakesley effect
      Message 2 of 20 , May 30, 2005
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        Knowledge of the Blakesley effect has been in the public domain for
        decades. So you haven't disclosed any sensitive information.

        While the Blakesley effect can be faked in a crude sort of way, the
        detailed appearance would be very difficult to duplicate.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Bunch"
        <goldpans@i...> wrote:
        > Did I let the "cat out of the bag" by mentioning the Blakesly Effect
        on
        > clipped coins?
        > I'm seeing alot of clips on ebay now that shows the "Blakesly Effect".
        > Since this looks easily copied I won't buy one.
      • miamimikes2001
        Speaking of clips what are your thoughts on robertk8331 item 3977696340? bow-tie clip dime? This is the same seller who had the bow-tie cent on dime scrap
        Message 3 of 20 , May 30, 2005
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          Speaking of clips what are your thoughts on robertk8331 item 3977696340?
          bow-tie clip dime? This is the same seller who had the bow-tie cent on dime
          scrap cent a week or so ago.



          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond" <
          mdia1@a...> wrote:
          > Knowledge of the Blakesley effect has been in the public domain for
          > decades. So you haven't disclosed any sensitive information.
          >
          > While the Blakesley effect can be faked in a crude sort of way, the
          > detailed appearance would be very difficult to duplicate.
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Bunch"
          > <goldpans@i...> wrote:
          > > Did I let the "cat out of the bag" by mentioning the Blakesly Effect
          > on
          > > clipped coins?
          > > I'm seeing alot of clips on ebay now that shows the "Blakesly Effect".
          > > Since this looks easily copied I won't buy one.
        • Rich Schemmer
          I have never seen a fake Blakesly shape on a coin? Not that it couldn t be done! But it seems to me they would have to use a file of some sort! While a real
          Message 4 of 20 , May 30, 2005
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            I have never seen a fake Blakesly shape on a coin? Not that it
            couldn't be done! But it seems to me they would have to use a file of
            some sort! While a real blakelsy effect is from the lose of metal
            oppisite the Incomplete planchet (clip). This lose of metal make a
            weakly struck area on the rim and sometimes effecting the sharpness of
            any lettering nearby.. depending of the size of the BLakesly effect..

            Though recently in the last few years we have seen some
            without "any" blakesly effect at all! In that case as in all clips
            your main focus should have been on the shape, appearance, and end
            where it meets the design of the coin. Looking for tooling marks on the
            inside of the clip or file marks--- BEST defense when on Ebay & your
            not sure! GET a return privilage on the coin from the seller that the
            coin is authentic.

            errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Bunch"
            <goldpans@i...> wrote:
            > Did I let the "cat out of the bag" by mentioning the Blakesly Effect
            on
            > clipped coins?
            > I'm seeing alot of clips on ebay now that shows the "Blakesly Effect".
            > Since this looks easily copied I won't buy one.
          • Rich Schemmer
            NG No lose of design anywhere on either side? irregular shapes on the edges,, No signs of metal flow? ... 3977696340? ... cent on dime ...
            Message 5 of 20 , May 30, 2005
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              NG No lose of design anywhere on either side? irregular shapes
              on the edges,, No signs of metal flow?

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "miamimikes2001"
              <mmoloney@m...> wrote:
              > Speaking of clips what are your thoughts on robertk8331 item
              3977696340?
              > bow-tie clip dime? This is the same seller who had the bow-tie
              cent on dime
              > scrap cent a week or so ago.
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
              <
              > mdia1@a...> wrote:
              > > Knowledge of the Blakesley effect has been in the public domain
              for
              > > decades. So you haven't disclosed any sensitive information.
              > >
              > > While the Blakesley effect can be faked in a crude sort of way,
              the
              > > detailed appearance would be very difficult to duplicate.
              > >
              > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Bunch"
              > > <goldpans@i...> wrote:
              > > > Did I let the "cat out of the bag" by mentioning the Blakesly
              Effect
              > > on
              > > > clipped coins?
              > > > I'm seeing alot of clips on ebay now that shows the "Blakesly
              Effect".
              > > > Since this looks easily copied I won't buy one.
            • Rich Schemmer
              PS: You can still see the rim of a struck coin on the reverse at K11 & K5 No weakness here either??? ... errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
              Message 6 of 20 , May 30, 2005
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                PS: You can still see the rim of a struck coin on the reverse at K11
                & K5 No weakness here either???

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Schemmer"
                <RichErrors@a...> wrote:
                >
                > NG No lose of design anywhere on either side? irregular shapes
                > on the edges,, No signs of metal flow?
                >
                > --- In
                errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "miamimikes2001"
                > <mmoloney@m...> wrote:
                > > Speaking of clips what are your thoughts on robertk8331 item
                > 3977696340?
                > > bow-tie clip dime? This is the same seller who had the bow-tie
                > cent on dime
                > > scrap cent a week or so ago.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                Diamond"
                > <
                > > mdia1@a...> wrote:
                > > > Knowledge of the Blakesley effect has been in the public domain
                > for
                > > > decades. So you haven't disclosed any sensitive information.
                > > >
                > > > While the Blakesley effect can be faked in a crude sort of way,
                > the
                > > > detailed appearance would be very difficult to duplicate.
                > > >
                > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom
                Bunch"
                > > > <goldpans@i...> wrote:
                > > > > Did I let the "cat out of the bag" by mentioning the Blakesly
                > Effect
                > > > on
                > > > > clipped coins?
                > > > > I'm seeing alot of clips on ebay now that shows the "Blakesly
                > Effect".
                > > > > Since this looks easily copied I won't buy one.
              • Mike Diamond
                It s a highly unusual shape, certainly not any sort of conventional bowtie . However, I have no reason to doubt its authenticity. The slight irregularity
                Message 7 of 20 , May 30, 2005
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                  It's a highly unusual shape, certainly not any sort of
                  conventional "bowtie". However, I have no reason to doubt its
                  authenticity. The slight irregularity seen in the clips is something
                  you'd expect of a genuine error, as the coin metal expands in a
                  somewhat unpredictable fashion.

                  I think I see just a trace of copper core extrusion on the obverse at
                  the margin of some of the clips. Another sign of authenticity, if my
                  eyes aren't playing tricks.

                  I think I see some metal flow in the ST of STATES on the reverse.
                  Again, hard to be sure.

                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "miamimikes2001"
                  <mmoloney@m...> wrote:

                  > Speaking of clips what are your thoughts on robertk8331 item
                  3977696340?
                  > bow-tie clip dime? This is the same seller who had the bow-tie
                  cent on dime
                  > scrap cent a week or so ago.
                • Mike Diamond
                  You can use a file or simply crimp the rim at the pole opposite the clip. Again, detailed examination should allow one to discriminate between a real
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 30, 2005
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                    You can use a file or simply crimp the rim at the pole opposite the
                    clip. Again, detailed examination should allow one to discriminate
                    between a real Blakesley effect and a false one.

                    In a real Blakesley effect, there is no "loss of metal". It's just
                    that this part of the planchet doesn't get upset, due to the lack of
                    resistance at the opposite pole. Because this part of the planchet
                    is not upset, it fails to fill the rim gutter properly during the
                    strike. At the same time, the planchet is out-of-round, and the edge
                    bulges out in this area. So, even though the design rim is poorly
                    struck or absent, the edge is very well-struck, and the rim/edge
                    junction is unusually sharp.

                    You are quite right that the Blakesley effect may be absent. In
                    fact, the bigger the clip, the more likely you won't find a Blakesley
                    effect. That's because the coin presents a smaller surface area to
                    the dies and effective striking pressure is consequently increased.
                    This more than compensates for the absence of an upset "proto-rim",
                    and coin metal fills the rim gutter without any interruption.

                    The totality of the evidence must be employed in determining the
                    authenticity of a clip"

                    1. Blakesely effect
                    2. Fade-out and taper of the design rim as it approaches the clip
                    3. "Belly line" or "breakaway zone" on the exposed edge of the clip
                    4. Proper curvature for the clip.

                    I've seen a few obvious fake clips on eBay recently, some of which
                    sold for big bucks.

                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Schemmer"
                    <RichErrors@a...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I have never seen a fake Blakesly shape on a coin? Not that it
                    > couldn't be done! But it seems to me they would have to use a file
                    of
                    > some sort! While a real blakelsy effect is from the lose of metal
                    > oppisite the Incomplete planchet (clip). This lose of metal make a
                    > weakly struck area on the rim and sometimes effecting the sharpness
                    of
                    > any lettering nearby.. depending of the size of the BLakesly
                    effect..
                    >
                    > Though recently in the last few years we have seen some
                    > without "any" blakesly effect at all! In that case as in all
                    clips
                    > your main focus should have been on the shape, appearance, and end
                    > where it meets the design of the coin. Looking for tooling marks on
                    the
                    > inside of the clip or file marks--- BEST defense when on Ebay &
                    your
                    > not sure! GET a return privilage on the coin from the seller that
                    the
                    > coin is authentic.
                  • Mike Diamond
                    I noticed the design rim at two points on the reverse. If this oddly- shaped quad clip was as wide as a dime planchet at these two points, then a design rim
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 30, 2005
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                      I noticed the design rim at two points on the reverse. If this oddly-
                      shaped quad clip was as wide as a dime planchet at these two points,
                      then a design rim (and reeding) would be generated by the strike.

                      I wouldn't expect there to be any loss of design, if the quad clip
                      planchet was dime-thickness. Especially because effective striking
                      pressure is greater in a piece of metal this small.

                      I believe it is genuine, but obviously, I won't commit myself based
                      only on a small photos.

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Schemmer"
                      <RichErrors@a...> wrote:
                      > PS: You can still see the rim of a struck coin on the reverse at
                      K11
                      > & K5 No weakness here either???
                      >
                      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich
                      Schemmer"
                      > <RichErrors@a...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > NG No lose of design anywhere on either side? irregular
                      shapes
                      > > on the edges,, No signs of metal flow?
                    • Norm Higgs
                      Since K5 and K11 are exact opposite poles, I would expect to see a rim formed there. I would certainly examinne the clip edges very carefully though, for tool
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 30, 2005
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                        Since K5 and K11 are exact opposite poles, I would expect to see a rim
                        formed there. I would certainly examinne the clip edges very carefully
                        though, for tool marks and metal flow, like you said.


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Rich Schemmer" <RichErrors@...>
                        To: <errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 4:51 PM
                        Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: clips


                        > PS: You can still see the rim of a struck coin on the reverse at K11
                        > & K5 No weakness here either???
                        >
                        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Schemmer"
                        > <RichErrors@a...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > NG No lose of design anywhere on either side? irregular shapes
                        > > on the edges,, No signs of metal flow?
                        > >
                        > > --- In
                        > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "miamimikes2001"
                        > > <mmoloney@m...> wrote:
                        > > > Speaking of clips what are your thoughts on robertk8331 item
                        > > 3977696340?
                        > > > bow-tie clip dime? This is the same seller who had the bow-tie
                        > > cent on dime
                        > > > scrap cent a week or so ago.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                        > Diamond"
                        > > <
                        > > > mdia1@a...> wrote:
                        > > > > Knowledge of the Blakesley effect has been in the public domain
                        > > for
                        > > > > decades. So you haven't disclosed any sensitive information.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > While the Blakesley effect can be faked in a crude sort of way,
                        > > the
                        > > > > detailed appearance would be very difficult to duplicate.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom
                        > Bunch"
                        > > > > <goldpans@i...> wrote:
                        > > > > > Did I let the "cat out of the bag" by mentioning the Blakesly
                        > > Effect
                        > > > > on
                        > > > > > clipped coins?
                        > > > > > I'm seeing alot of clips on ebay now that shows the "Blakesly
                        > > Effect".
                        > > > > > Since this looks easily copied I won't buy one.
                        >
                        >
                        >
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