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Re: Bottom half of "nested pair"

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  • Mike Diamond
    I see no rings in the photo, but I ll have to take your word for it. The presence of 10 strike rings is inconsistent with presence of a crisp brockage on the
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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      I see no rings in the photo, but I'll have to take your word for it.
      The presence of 10 strike rings is inconsistent with presence of a
      crisp brockage on the reverse that shows uniform expansion from edge
      to center. I see no evidence that this coin produced a single
      counterbrockage, which is what a die cap of this nature must do.

      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10 rings
      > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!! Plus
      > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a die
      > cap.
      >
      > Mike Byers
      > http://mikebyers.com
    • byersnc
      It s hard to show the inner walls of the obv die cap in scans. But I will have my webmaster try and take a shot showing the rings. Mike Byers
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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        It's hard to show the inner walls of the obv die cap in scans. But I
        will have my webmaster try and take a shot showing the rings.


        Mike Byers
        http://mikebyers.com












        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
        <mdia1@a...> wrote:
        >
        > I see no rings in the photo, but I'll have to take your word for
        it.
        > The presence of 10 strike rings is inconsistent with presence of a
        > crisp brockage on the reverse that shows uniform expansion from
        edge
        > to center. I see no evidence that this coin produced a single
        > counterbrockage, which is what a die cap of this nature must do.
        >
        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
        > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10
        rings
        > > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!! Plus
        > > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a
        die
        > > cap.
        > >
        > > Mike Byers
        > > http://mikebyers.com
      • Mike Diamond
        Same problem as before. I can t rule out a die cap, but I see no conclusive evidence that this coin received more than one strike. Cupping is not reliable
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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          Same problem as before. I can't rule out a die cap, but I see no
          conclusive evidence that this coin received more than one strike.
          Cupping is not reliable criterion. The brockage is crisp and appears
          uniformly expanded from edge to center.

          I have several deeply cupped broadstrikes with crisp, full brockages
          on the reverse. I wouldn't call any of them a die cap, for the six
          reasons I laid out in a previous e-mail. I really don't care what
          the market demands or expects. I'm not in the business of selling
          coins. My only concern is accuracy.

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here's the 2c obv die cap from his
          > collection:
          >
          > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
          > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapsm.jpg
          >
          > Mike Byers
          > http://mikebyers.com
        • Mike Diamond
          Thanks. I would think that 10 strikes would have absolutely obliterated the central portion of the brockage. Considering the amount of lateral (as well as
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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            Thanks. I would think that 10 strikes would have absolutely
            obliterated the central portion of the brockage. Considering the
            amount of lateral (as well as upward) expansion of the coin, both top
            and bottom coins would have been struck out-of-collar. That
            situation greatly accelerates the expansion and obliteration of any
            brockage image on the reverse of a coin.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            >
            > It's hard to show the inner walls of the obv die cap in scans. But
            I
            > will have my webmaster try and take a shot showing the rings.
            >
            >
            > Mike Byers
            > http://mikebyers.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
            > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I see no rings in the photo, but I'll have to take your word for
            > it.
            > > The presence of 10 strike rings is inconsistent with presence of
            a
            > > crisp brockage on the reverse that shows uniform expansion from
            > edge
            > > to center. I see no evidence that this coin produced a single
            > > counterbrockage, which is what a die cap of this nature must do.
            > >
            > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
            > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10
            > rings
            > > > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!!
            Plus
            > > > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a
            > die
            > > > cap.
            > > >
            > > > Mike Byers
            > > > http://mikebyers.com
          • Mike Diamond
            ... that ... That s certainly possible. You can only go so far with a picture, even a good one. ... To an extent. But other factors must be weighed as well.
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
              <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
              >
              > I know if you saw all the previous die details from prior strikes
              that
              > would help.

              That's certainly possible. You can only go so far with a picture,
              even a good one.
              >
              > But as I've stated before "size matters".

              To an extent. But other factors must be weighed as well.

              I cannot eloquently argue my
              > point as you can. For me, grossly larger saucer size is evidence of
              > multistrikes.

              I mostly work with recent coins, and for these I have long ago
              concluded that size is largely irrelevant. I've seen half-dollar
              size cents for which I could find evidence of only a single strike.
              I have seen multi-struck cents that show very little expansion, even
              when struck out of collar. You've got to consider the totality of
              the evidence. I'm not even entirely convinced of the reliability
              of "strike lines". I have a minor off-center quarter that shows
              three or four sets of what appear to be strike lines, but I am sure
              that the quarter was struck only once. I have no idea why these
              lines formed.

              In fact it's usually the only evidence remaining since
              > the die strike details can be completely obliterated.

              I will agree with you on that point.
              >
              >
              > For me the 1856 1c Farone Cap may have rode on top of just one 1856
              > coin for 10 strikes. Thats cool. I'd accept that and still call it a
              > die cap. Heck, even if it showed no "10 tiered" steps I'd still like
              > it as a "diecap" as pictured.

              You are correct that a brockage image will maintain its integrity
              longer as part of a "nested pair" than if it was striking a fresh
              planchet each time. But still, ten strikes is a lot.

              It is good to be able to disagree in an atmosphere of friendliness
              and mutual respect. That's what this hobby is all about.
            • Mike Diamond
              By the same token, there have been times when I ve had to issue a course correction. I had to sink the idea of wraparound strikes (lateral indents) when it
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                By the same token, there have been times when I've had to issue a
                course correction. I had to sink the idea of "wraparound strikes"
                (lateral indents) when it became clear that I was dealing with
                concave chain strikes. (You will often see these described and
                slabbed as "off-center with clip" errors.)

                In my recent article on misaligned anvil dies, I concluded that the
                Virginia quarters with misaligned anvil dies came after the off-
                center quarters and those with the misaligned hammer die. That
                conclusion was based on the apparent absence of obverse (anvil)
                collar clash in the latter two groups. I was wrong about that. I
                subsequently undertook a study of die stages based on the appearance
                of die scratches and other blemishes (soon to be published on the
                CONECA website), and I found that the mad anvil cohort are sprinkled
                throughout six die stages, and that they bracket the off-center and
                mad hammer cohorts. One can be misled by evidence that seems to be
                convincing at the time. That occurs in every field of inquiry.

                Like you, I also believed for a long time that deeply cupped cents
                with a full brockage reverse were legitimate die caps. The
                appearance fooled me because, like you, I placed a lot of faith in
                features like wall height and verticality. Subsequent consideration
                of all available evidence (summed up in the six points I laid out in
                an earlier debate) led me to reject that long-held assumption. One
                must always be ready to question the status quo.

                You keep holding my feet to the fire, Lindy. Same goes for everybody
                and anybody on ECIE. I encourage dissent and debate. Sometimes I
                miss the contributions of my friend Terry (pwrwgndrvr) who was one of
                the best devil's advocates I've ever encountered.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                >
                > Of course, respectfully disagreeing is all good and the best
                option.
                >
                > Somewhere, sometime ago I read "people won't remember what you said
                > just how it made them feel".
                >
                > Anyways, I'm still quite happy that you convinced me the 1966 25c I
                > have has an obv brockage by elliptical clip 25c coin that remained
                > exactly where it was struck. Pretty neat indeed, you created an
                error
                > hole, then filled it right in. I thought for sure it was struck
                > through an off center 25c that remained where it was struck. I was
                > wrong. Didn't ever consider the collar's direct relationship to the
                > 1966 rev 25c die.
                >
                > Lindy
              • byersnc
                Lindy- I ended up with 6 of the 9 early type obv die caps that Mike Faraone had. One of the 3 that I didn t end up with was his Buffalo Nickel obv die cap. It
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                  Lindy- I ended up with 6 of the 9 early type obv die caps that Mike
                  Faraone had. One of the 3 that I didn't end up with was his Buffalo
                  Nickel obv die cap. It is owned by Bob Entlich, a Stack's employee.
                  In 2004 I offered him $30,000 (thirty thousand) and he passed. He
                  said he was offered that 2 other times and that it was not for sale.


                  Mike Byers
                  http://mikebyers.com







                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                  <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Exactly. He had put them in custom capital plastics holders just
                  like
                  > your 2c piece. With his name on each and ana id #. It was an
                  > incredible set of diecaps to behold.
                  >
                  > Lindy
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                  > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here's the 2c obv die cap from
                  his
                  > > collection:
                  > >
                  > > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
                  > > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapsm.jpg
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Mike Byers
                  > > http://mikebyers.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                  > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10
                  rings
                  > > > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!!
                  Plus
                  > > > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a
                  die
                  > > > cap.
                  > > >
                  > > > Mike Byers
                  > > > http://mikebyers.com
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In
                  errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                  > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Whose "definition" are you using?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > In numerous pictures of caps in the 1970's and 1980's error
                  sales
                  > > > > publications these single coin multistrikes are most always
                  > > called
                  > > > > diecaps.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Devine, Weinberg, Roosmalen, Steiner, Ziempher, Fivaz,
                  Stanton,
                  > > > > Schemmer, Halpern, Margolis, ANA, ANACS, NCG, PCGS... have
                  all
                  > > > taken
                  > > > > called these grey~area items "diecaps" in their printed
                  photos,
                  > > > sales
                  > > > > catalogues, websites, slab descriptions...
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Indeed, you may be right strictly using this stated
                  definition.
                  > > > Single
                  > > > > coin multistike coins with brockage or uniface 2rd sides may
                  not
                  > > be
                  > > > > diecap by this definition. But,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > For me, I disagree on this piece and on the 1856 lg Cent,
                  and
                  > > on
                  > > > 1888
                  > > > > Morgan, ect whose 4 year old photos were mentioned earlier.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The 1856 Lg Cent die cap is a diecap in my eyes, and also
                  for
                  > > all
                  > > > the
                  > > > > important encapsulators these days from what I see on ebay.
                  I
                  > > think
                  > > > > the 1856 1c is currently in a "diecap" slab. I recognize it
                  from
                  > > > when
                  > > > > Mike Farrone owned in in 1981ish. He was a local error
                  > > specialist
                  > > > with
                  > > > > amazing 1800's "diecaps". If I remember right he had the
                  1856 in
                  > > a
                  > > > > customized 8x10 capitol plastics "diecap" gold embossed
                  holder
                  > > of
                  > > > his
                  > > > > making, way back before "slabs". Back then Farrone had more
                  than
                  > > a
                  > > > > dozen type coin caps. Many of his pieces displayed
                  this "single"
                  > > > coin
                  > > > > possibility die cap. He'd bring them to coin club show &
                  tell.
                  > > > Quite
                  > > > > impressive "diecaps".
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Lindy
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                  > > > Diamond"
                  > > > > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In
                  > > > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                  > > > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > I agree it's a nested pair bottom coin. Where I disagree
                  is
                  > > > that its
                  > > > > > > not a "diecap" just because it was multistruck into just
                  one
                  > > > coin.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > But then you'd need to re-define what a die cap is. By
                  > > > definition, a
                  > > > > > die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER
                  > > > planchet
                  > > > > > AFTER the initial strike. It is a coin that must function
                  AS
                  > > > the die
                  > > > > > face in striking fresh coins. By definition, it is NOT
                  > > > sufficient
                  > > > > > simply to be multi-struck against the same coin or
                  planchet
                  > > that
                  > > > was
                  > > > > > involved in the initial strike.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > If
                  > > > > > > you had both pieces to this set: "obv die cap" &
                  this "rev
                  > > die
                  > > > cap"
                  > > > > > > and together it appeared they received 3+ strikes
                  together,
                  > > > how
                  > > > > > would
                  > > > > > > you describe the two? I'm guessing not a die cap set,
                  right?
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > The top coin was certainly an obverse die cap or at least
                  > > > started as
                  > > > > > an obverse die cap (it may have secondarily adhered to the
                  > > > bottom
                  > > > > > coin). It is not the case, however, that the bottom coin
                  is a
                  > > > > > reverse die cap. It is a coin with a full, centered
                  brockage
                  > > > that
                  > > > > > temporarily wrapped around the obverse cap. The bottom
                  coin
                  > > > never
                  > > > > > contacted another coin or planchet.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > In the old days, turn of the century before last, you'd
                  get
                  > > the
                  > > > > > > classic thimbal shape diecaps. These days you get coins
                  > > struck
                  > > > > > > together numerous times, obliterating previous die
                  details
                  > > and
                  > > > > > > displaying saucer shape, grossly expanded diameters.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Multiple strikes and cupping do not necessarily translate
                  into
                  > > a
                  > > > die
                  > > > > > cap. The definition of a die cap is quite precise. This
                  does
                  > > > not
                  > > > > > detract from the interest and value of this coin. But you
                  > > would
                  > > > have
                  > > > > > to call it what it is -- a deeply cupped, multi-stuck,
                  > > brockaged
                  > > > cent.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > If you loosen up the definition for a cap, then you get
                  the
                  > > > situation
                  > > > > > we see today in slabbed and raw coins. All sorts of coins
                  are
                  > > > being
                  > > > > > called die caps which aren't, from simple cupped
                  broadstrikes,
                  > > > to
                  > > > > > uniface broadstrikes, to broadstrikes with full, centered,
                  > > first-
                  > > > > > strike brockages, etc.
                • fred_weinberg
                  I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info....... Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                    I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info.......

                    Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel
                    Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt Collection.
                    That collection had over 2,000 MAJOR error type
                    coins, starting in 1794, and nothing was past 1955 !!

                    The Buffalo Rev. Cap was, and is Unique..............

                    The Jerri Bobbie Morgan Cap was Ex-Roy Gray - he
                    had it at the very first EAR in 1967 at the Hollywood-
                    Roosevelt Hotel. It was priced at $1,000 at the time
                    (pretty sure I remember the price), and on the last
                    day of the show (Sunday), my mother came by, and
                    as I introduced her to all of my error buddies
                    (Mort Goodman, Arnie Margolis, Syd Kass, plus all
                    the dealers) she saw the Morgan piece in Roys showcase,
                    and said quote "Your Father would Love that for an
                    Ashtray!!"

                    I will never forget the look on Roy's face!!!

                    Oh, well, another new year, and more old memories..........

                    See you guys tomorrow morning........it's been fun reading
                    the posts today.....
                    Fred



                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                    <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Lindy- I ended up with 6 of the 9 early type obv die caps that
                    Mike
                    > Faraone had. One of the 3 that I didn't end up with was his
                    Buffalo
                    > Nickel obv die cap. It is owned by Bob Entlich, a Stack's
                    employee.
                    > In 2004 I offered him $30,000 (thirty thousand) and he passed. He
                    > said he was offered that 2 other times and that it was not for
                    sale.
                    >
                    >
                    > Mike Byers
                    > http://mikebyers.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                    > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Exactly. He had put them in custom capital plastics holders just
                    > like
                    > > your 2c piece. With his name on each and ana id #. It was an
                    > > incredible set of diecaps to behold.
                    > >
                    > > Lindy
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                    > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here's the 2c obv die cap from
                    > his
                    > > > collection:
                    > > >
                    > > > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
                    > > > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapsm.jpg
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Mike Byers
                    > > > http://mikebyers.com
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                    > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10
                    > rings
                    > > > > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!!
                    > Plus
                    > > > > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's
                    a
                    > die
                    > > > > cap.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Mike Byers
                    > > > > http://mikebyers.com
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In
                    > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                    > > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Whose "definition" are you using?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > In numerous pictures of caps in the 1970's and 1980's
                    error
                    > sales
                    > > > > > publications these single coin multistrikes are most
                    always
                    > > > called
                    > > > > > diecaps.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Devine, Weinberg, Roosmalen, Steiner, Ziempher, Fivaz,
                    > Stanton,
                    > > > > > Schemmer, Halpern, Margolis, ANA, ANACS, NCG, PCGS... have
                    > all
                    > > > > taken
                    > > > > > called these grey~area items "diecaps" in their printed
                    > photos,
                    > > > > sales
                    > > > > > catalogues, websites, slab descriptions...
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Indeed, you may be right strictly using this stated
                    > definition.
                    > > > > Single
                    > > > > > coin multistike coins with brockage or uniface 2rd sides
                    may
                    > not
                    > > > be
                    > > > > > diecap by this definition. But,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > For me, I disagree on this piece and on the 1856 lg Cent,
                    > and
                    > > > on
                    > > > > 1888
                    > > > > > Morgan, ect whose 4 year old photos were mentioned
                    earlier.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > The 1856 Lg Cent die cap is a diecap in my eyes, and also
                    > for
                    > > > all
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > important encapsulators these days from what I see on
                    ebay.
                    > I
                    > > > think
                    > > > > > the 1856 1c is currently in a "diecap" slab. I recognize
                    it
                    > from
                    > > > > when
                    > > > > > Mike Farrone owned in in 1981ish. He was a local error
                    > > > specialist
                    > > > > with
                    > > > > > amazing 1800's "diecaps". If I remember right he had the
                    > 1856 in
                    > > > a
                    > > > > > customized 8x10 capitol plastics "diecap" gold embossed
                    > holder
                    > > > of
                    > > > > his
                    > > > > > making, way back before "slabs". Back then Farrone had
                    more
                    > than
                    > > > a
                    > > > > > dozen type coin caps. Many of his pieces displayed
                    > this "single"
                    > > > > coin
                    > > > > > possibility die cap. He'd bring them to coin club show &
                    > tell.
                    > > > > Quite
                    > > > > > impressive "diecaps".
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Lindy
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In
                    errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                    > > > > Diamond"
                    > > > > > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --- In
                    > > > > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                    > > > > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > I agree it's a nested pair bottom coin. Where I
                    disagree
                    > is
                    > > > > that its
                    > > > > > > > not a "diecap" just because it was multistruck into
                    just
                    > one
                    > > > > coin.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > But then you'd need to re-define what a die cap is. By
                    > > > > definition, a
                    > > > > > > die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER
                    > > > > planchet
                    > > > > > > AFTER the initial strike. It is a coin that must
                    function
                    > AS
                    > > > > the die
                    > > > > > > face in striking fresh coins. By definition, it is NOT
                    > > > > sufficient
                    > > > > > > simply to be multi-struck against the same coin or
                    > planchet
                    > > > that
                    > > > > was
                    > > > > > > involved in the initial strike.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > If
                    > > > > > > > you had both pieces to this set: "obv die cap" &
                    > this "rev
                    > > > die
                    > > > > cap"
                    > > > > > > > and together it appeared they received 3+ strikes
                    > together,
                    > > > > how
                    > > > > > > would
                    > > > > > > > you describe the two? I'm guessing not a die cap set,
                    > right?
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > The top coin was certainly an obverse die cap or at
                    least
                    > > > > started as
                    > > > > > > an obverse die cap (it may have secondarily adhered to
                    the
                    > > > > bottom
                    > > > > > > coin). It is not the case, however, that the bottom
                    coin
                    > is a
                    > > > > > > reverse die cap. It is a coin with a full, centered
                    > brockage
                    > > > > that
                    > > > > > > temporarily wrapped around the obverse cap. The bottom
                    > coin
                    > > > > never
                    > > > > > > contacted another coin or planchet.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > In the old days, turn of the century before last,
                    you'd
                    > get
                    > > > the
                    > > > > > > > classic thimbal shape diecaps. These days you get
                    coins
                    > > > struck
                    > > > > > > > together numerous times, obliterating previous die
                    > details
                    > > > and
                    > > > > > > > displaying saucer shape, grossly expanded diameters.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Multiple strikes and cupping do not necessarily
                    translate
                    > into
                    > > > a
                    > > > > die
                    > > > > > > cap. The definition of a die cap is quite precise.
                    This
                    > does
                    > > > > not
                    > > > > > > detract from the interest and value of this coin. But
                    you
                    > > > would
                    > > > > have
                    > > > > > > to call it what it is -- a deeply cupped, multi-stuck,
                    > > > brockaged
                    > > > > cent.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > If you loosen up the definition for a cap, then you get
                    > the
                    > > > > situation
                    > > > > > > we see today in slabbed and raw coins. All sorts of
                    coins
                    > are
                    > > > > being
                    > > > > > > called die caps which aren't, from simple cupped
                    > broadstrikes,
                    > > > > to
                    > > > > > > uniface broadstrikes, to broadstrikes with full,
                    centered,
                    > > > first-
                    > > > > > > strike brockages, etc.
                  • Mike Diamond
                    We always enjoy your trips down memory lane, Fred. Since buffalo nickels were struck with the reverse die acting as the hammer die, a buffalo nickel reverse
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
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                      We always enjoy your trips down memory lane, Fred.

                      Since buffalo nickels were struck with the reverse die acting as the
                      hammer die, a buffalo nickel reverse die cap would be equivalent to
                      an obverse die cap for most other denominations.

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info.......
                      >
                      > Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel
                      > Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt Collection.
                      > That collection had over 2,000 MAJOR error type
                      > coins, starting in 1794, and nothing was past 1955 !!
                      >
                      > The Buffalo Rev. Cap was, and is Unique..............
                      >
                      > The Jerri Bobbie Morgan Cap was Ex-Roy Gray - he
                      > had it at the very first EAR in 1967 at the Hollywood-
                      > Roosevelt Hotel. It was priced at $1,000 at the time
                      > (pretty sure I remember the price), and on the last
                      > day of the show (Sunday), my mother came by, and
                      > as I introduced her to all of my error buddies
                      > (Mort Goodman, Arnie Margolis, Syd Kass, plus all
                      > the dealers) she saw the Morgan piece in Roys showcase,
                      > and said quote "Your Father would Love that for an
                      > Ashtray!!"
                      >
                      > I will never forget the look on Roy's face!!!
                      >
                      > Oh, well, another new year, and more old memories..........
                      >
                      > See you guys tomorrow morning........it's been fun reading
                      > the posts today.....
                      > Fred
                    • fred_weinberg
                      Yes, when I said Buffalo Nickel Reverse Cap Die, I meant the reverse design, not the reverse die. Should I have said Reverse Buffalo Nickel Cap Die? Most
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
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                        Yes, when I said Buffalo Nickel Reverse Cap Die,
                        I meant the reverse design, not the reverse die.
                        Should I have said Reverse Buffalo Nickel Cap Die?

                        Most Buffalo Nickels, Mercury Dimes, most Standing Liberty
                        Quarters, and Peace dollars have the reverse die as
                        the Anvil (top) die.


                        Fred



                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                        <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                        >
                        > We always enjoy your trips down memory lane, Fred.
                        >
                        > Since buffalo nickels were struck with the reverse die acting as
                        the
                        > hammer die, a buffalo nickel reverse die cap would be equivalent
                        to
                        > an obverse die cap for most other denominations.
                        >
                        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                        > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info.......
                        > >
                        > > Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel
                        > > Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt Collection.
                        > > That collection had over 2,000 MAJOR error type
                        > > coins, starting in 1794, and nothing was past 1955 !!
                        > >
                        > > The Buffalo Rev. Cap was, and is Unique..............
                        > >
                        > > The Jerri Bobbie Morgan Cap was Ex-Roy Gray - he
                        > > had it at the very first EAR in 1967 at the Hollywood-
                        > > Roosevelt Hotel. It was priced at $1,000 at the time
                        > > (pretty sure I remember the price), and on the last
                        > > day of the show (Sunday), my mother came by, and
                        > > as I introduced her to all of my error buddies
                        > > (Mort Goodman, Arnie Margolis, Syd Kass, plus all
                        > > the dealers) she saw the Morgan piece in Roys showcase,
                        > > and said quote "Your Father would Love that for an
                        > > Ashtray!!"
                        > >
                        > > I will never forget the look on Roy's face!!!
                        > >
                        > > Oh, well, another new year, and more old memories..........
                        > >
                        > > See you guys tomorrow morning........it's been fun reading
                        > > the posts today.....
                        > > Fred
                      • byersnc
                        Fred- that s why I called it an obverse die cap- it s an obverse die cap of the REVERSE DESIGN, since the reverse die was most likely the anvil die... Speaking
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
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                          Fred- that's why I called it an obverse die cap- it's an obverse die
                          cap of the REVERSE DESIGN, since the reverse die was most likely the
                          anvil die...


                          Speaking of Mercury Dimes using the reverse die as the anvil die-
                          check out this unique Mercury Dime obverse die cap of the reverse
                          design:

                          http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2203151882


                          Mike Byers
                          http://mikebyers.com

                          -----------------------------------------------




                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Yes, when I said Buffalo Nickel Reverse Cap Die,
                          > I meant the reverse design, not the reverse die.
                          > Should I have said Reverse Buffalo Nickel Cap Die?
                          >
                          > Most Buffalo Nickels, Mercury Dimes, most Standing Liberty
                          > Quarters, and Peace dollars have the reverse die as
                          > the Anvil (top) die.
                          >
                          >
                          > Fred
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                          Diamond"
                          > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > We always enjoy your trips down memory lane, Fred.
                          > >
                          > > Since buffalo nickels were struck with the reverse die acting as
                          > the
                          > > hammer die, a buffalo nickel reverse die cap would be equivalent
                          > to
                          > > an obverse die cap for most other denominations.
                          > >
                          > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
                          fred_weinberg
                          > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info.......
                          > > >
                          > > > Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel
                          > > > Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt Collection.
                          > > > That collection had over 2,000 MAJOR error type
                          > > > coins, starting in 1794, and nothing was past 1955 !!
                          > > >
                          > > > The Buffalo Rev. Cap was, and is Unique..............
                          > > >
                          > > > The Jerri Bobbie Morgan Cap was Ex-Roy Gray - he
                          > > > had it at the very first EAR in 1967 at the Hollywood-
                          > > > Roosevelt Hotel. It was priced at $1,000 at the time
                          > > > (pretty sure I remember the price), and on the last
                          > > > day of the show (Sunday), my mother came by, and
                          > > > as I introduced her to all of my error buddies
                          > > > (Mort Goodman, Arnie Margolis, Syd Kass, plus all
                          > > > the dealers) she saw the Morgan piece in Roys showcase,
                          > > > and said quote "Your Father would Love that for an
                          > > > Ashtray!!"
                          > > >
                          > > > I will never forget the look on Roy's face!!!
                          > > >
                          > > > Oh, well, another new year, and more old memories..........
                          > > >
                          > > > See you guys tomorrow morning........it's been fun reading
                          > > > the posts today.....
                          > > > Fred
                        • Mike Diamond
                          Oh, I wasn t questioning your description. I was just letting folks who were unfamiliar with the die set-up for buffalo nickels know that a reverse die cap in
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
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                            Oh, I wasn't questioning your description. I was just letting folks
                            who were unfamiliar with the die set-up for buffalo nickels know that
                            a reverse die cap in a buffalo nickel is functionally equivalent to
                            an obverse die cap in, say, a Jefferson nickel.

                            You can call it a reverse die cap or, perhaps less confusingly, a
                            hammer die cap.

                            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Yes, when I said Buffalo Nickel Reverse Cap Die,
                            > I meant the reverse design, not the reverse die.
                            > Should I have said Reverse Buffalo Nickel Cap Die?
                            >
                            > Most Buffalo Nickels, Mercury Dimes, most Standing Liberty
                            > Quarters, and Peace dollars have the reverse die as
                            > the Anvil (top) die.
                            >
                            >
                            > Fred
                          • Mike Diamond
                            No, it s a hammer die cap, not an obverse die cap. An obverse die cap in a buffalo nickel would be functionally equivalent to a reverse die cap in most other
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              No, it's a hammer die cap, not an obverse die cap. An obverse die
                              cap in a buffalo nickel would be functionally equivalent to a reverse
                              die cap in most other denominations.

                              Like I say, when you're dealing with Mercury dimes and buffalo
                              nickels, it probably causes less confusion if you talk about hammer
                              die caps and anvil die caps.

                              Your Mercury dime "hammer die cap" with full, centered brockage of
                              the reverse design on the obverse face faces the same problem as the
                              1886 Morgan dollar and 1856 large cent. The brockage is full, crisp,
                              and appears to be a first-strike brockage. The sharp brockage shows
                              uniform expansion and clarity from edge to center, indicating it did
                              not strike another planchet after initial formation and thus fails to
                              qualify as a die cap.

                              But no matter what you call it, it's still unique.

                              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                              <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Fred- that's why I called it an obverse die cap- it's an obverse
                              die
                              > cap of the REVERSE DESIGN, since the reverse die was most likely
                              the
                              > anvil die...
                              >
                              >
                              > Speaking of Mercury Dimes using the reverse die as the anvil die-
                              > check out this unique Mercury Dime obverse die cap of the reverse
                              > design:
                              >
                              > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2203151882
                              >
                              >
                              > Mike Byers
                              > http://mikebyers.com
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