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Re: Bottom half of "nested pair"

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  • byersnc
    Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10 rings around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!! Plus everyone you mentioned in
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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      Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10 rings
      around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!! Plus
      everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a die
      cap.

      Mike Byers
      http://mikebyers.com









      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
      <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
      >
      > Whose "definition" are you using?
      >
      > In numerous pictures of caps in the 1970's and 1980's error sales
      > publications these single coin multistrikes are most always called
      > diecaps.
      >
      > Devine, Weinberg, Roosmalen, Steiner, Ziempher, Fivaz, Stanton,
      > Schemmer, Halpern, Margolis, ANA, ANACS, NCG, PCGS... have all
      taken
      > called these grey~area items "diecaps" in their printed photos,
      sales
      > catalogues, websites, slab descriptions...
      >
      > Indeed, you may be right strictly using this stated definition.
      Single
      > coin multistike coins with brockage or uniface 2rd sides may not be
      > diecap by this definition. But,
      >
      > For me, I disagree on this piece and on the 1856 lg Cent, and on
      1888
      > Morgan, ect whose 4 year old photos were mentioned earlier.
      >
      > The 1856 Lg Cent die cap is a diecap in my eyes, and also for all
      the
      > important encapsulators these days from what I see on ebay. I think
      > the 1856 1c is currently in a "diecap" slab. I recognize it from
      when
      > Mike Farrone owned in in 1981ish. He was a local error specialist
      with
      > amazing 1800's "diecaps". If I remember right he had the 1856 in a
      > customized 8x10 capitol plastics "diecap" gold embossed holder of
      his
      > making, way back before "slabs". Back then Farrone had more than a
      > dozen type coin caps. Many of his pieces displayed this "single"
      coin
      > possibility die cap. He'd bring them to coin club show & tell.
      Quite
      > impressive "diecaps".
      >
      > Lindy
      >
      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
      Diamond"
      > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In
      errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
      > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I agree it's a nested pair bottom coin. Where I disagree is
      that its
      > > > not a "diecap" just because it was multistruck into just one
      coin.
      > >
      > > But then you'd need to re-define what a die cap is. By
      definition, a
      > > die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER
      planchet
      > > AFTER the initial strike. It is a coin that must function AS
      the die
      > > face in striking fresh coins. By definition, it is NOT
      sufficient
      > > simply to be multi-struck against the same coin or planchet that
      was
      > > involved in the initial strike.
      > >
      > > If
      > > > you had both pieces to this set: "obv die cap" & this "rev die
      cap"
      > > > and together it appeared they received 3+ strikes together,
      how
      > > would
      > > > you describe the two? I'm guessing not a die cap set, right?
      > >
      > > The top coin was certainly an obverse die cap or at least
      started as
      > > an obverse die cap (it may have secondarily adhered to the
      bottom
      > > coin). It is not the case, however, that the bottom coin is a
      > > reverse die cap. It is a coin with a full, centered brockage
      that
      > > temporarily wrapped around the obverse cap. The bottom coin
      never
      > > contacted another coin or planchet.
      > > >
      > > > In the old days, turn of the century before last, you'd get the
      > > > classic thimbal shape diecaps. These days you get coins struck
      > > > together numerous times, obliterating previous die details and
      > > > displaying saucer shape, grossly expanded diameters.
      > >
      > > Multiple strikes and cupping do not necessarily translate into a
      die
      > > cap. The definition of a die cap is quite precise. This does
      not
      > > detract from the interest and value of this coin. But you would
      have
      > > to call it what it is -- a deeply cupped, multi-stuck, brockaged
      cent.
      > >
      > > If you loosen up the definition for a cap, then you get the
      situation
      > > we see today in slabbed and raw coins. All sorts of coins are
      being
      > > called die caps which aren't, from simple cupped broadstrikes,
      to
      > > uniface broadstrikes, to broadstrikes with full, centered, first-
      > > strike brockages, etc.
    • byersnc
      Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here s the 2c obv die cap from his collection: http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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        Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here's the 2c obv die cap from his
        collection:

        http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
        http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapsm.jpg




        Mike Byers
        http://mikebyers.com








        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10 rings
        > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!! Plus
        > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a die
        > cap.
        >
        > Mike Byers
        > http://mikebyers.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
        > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Whose "definition" are you using?
        > >
        > > In numerous pictures of caps in the 1970's and 1980's error sales
        > > publications these single coin multistrikes are most always
        called
        > > diecaps.
        > >
        > > Devine, Weinberg, Roosmalen, Steiner, Ziempher, Fivaz, Stanton,
        > > Schemmer, Halpern, Margolis, ANA, ANACS, NCG, PCGS... have all
        > taken
        > > called these grey~area items "diecaps" in their printed photos,
        > sales
        > > catalogues, websites, slab descriptions...
        > >
        > > Indeed, you may be right strictly using this stated definition.
        > Single
        > > coin multistike coins with brockage or uniface 2rd sides may not
        be
        > > diecap by this definition. But,
        > >
        > > For me, I disagree on this piece and on the 1856 lg Cent, and
        on
        > 1888
        > > Morgan, ect whose 4 year old photos were mentioned earlier.
        > >
        > > The 1856 Lg Cent die cap is a diecap in my eyes, and also for
        all
        > the
        > > important encapsulators these days from what I see on ebay. I
        think
        > > the 1856 1c is currently in a "diecap" slab. I recognize it from
        > when
        > > Mike Farrone owned in in 1981ish. He was a local error
        specialist
        > with
        > > amazing 1800's "diecaps". If I remember right he had the 1856 in
        a
        > > customized 8x10 capitol plastics "diecap" gold embossed holder
        of
        > his
        > > making, way back before "slabs". Back then Farrone had more than
        a
        > > dozen type coin caps. Many of his pieces displayed this "single"
        > coin
        > > possibility die cap. He'd bring them to coin club show & tell.
        > Quite
        > > impressive "diecaps".
        > >
        > > Lindy
        > >
        > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
        > Diamond"
        > > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > --- In
        > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
        > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > I agree it's a nested pair bottom coin. Where I disagree is
        > that its
        > > > > not a "diecap" just because it was multistruck into just one
        > coin.
        > > >
        > > > But then you'd need to re-define what a die cap is. By
        > definition, a
        > > > die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER
        > planchet
        > > > AFTER the initial strike. It is a coin that must function AS
        > the die
        > > > face in striking fresh coins. By definition, it is NOT
        > sufficient
        > > > simply to be multi-struck against the same coin or planchet
        that
        > was
        > > > involved in the initial strike.
        > > >
        > > > If
        > > > > you had both pieces to this set: "obv die cap" & this "rev
        die
        > cap"
        > > > > and together it appeared they received 3+ strikes together,
        > how
        > > > would
        > > > > you describe the two? I'm guessing not a die cap set, right?
        > > >
        > > > The top coin was certainly an obverse die cap or at least
        > started as
        > > > an obverse die cap (it may have secondarily adhered to the
        > bottom
        > > > coin). It is not the case, however, that the bottom coin is a
        > > > reverse die cap. It is a coin with a full, centered brockage
        > that
        > > > temporarily wrapped around the obverse cap. The bottom coin
        > never
        > > > contacted another coin or planchet.
        > > > >
        > > > > In the old days, turn of the century before last, you'd get
        the
        > > > > classic thimbal shape diecaps. These days you get coins
        struck
        > > > > together numerous times, obliterating previous die details
        and
        > > > > displaying saucer shape, grossly expanded diameters.
        > > >
        > > > Multiple strikes and cupping do not necessarily translate into
        a
        > die
        > > > cap. The definition of a die cap is quite precise. This does
        > not
        > > > detract from the interest and value of this coin. But you
        would
        > have
        > > > to call it what it is -- a deeply cupped, multi-stuck,
        brockaged
        > cent.
        > > >
        > > > If you loosen up the definition for a cap, then you get the
        > situation
        > > > we see today in slabbed and raw coins. All sorts of coins are
        > being
        > > > called die caps which aren't, from simple cupped broadstrikes,
        > to
        > > > uniface broadstrikes, to broadstrikes with full, centered,
        first-
        > > > strike brockages, etc.
      • Mike Diamond
        Lindy, people can label coins any way they want to. They can choose to ignore established definitions. They ve been doing so as long as coins have been for
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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          Lindy, people can label coins any way they want to. They can choose
          to ignore established definitions. They've been doing so as long as
          coins have been for sale. If you label a coin "die cap" you attract
          more interest (and more money) than if you label it something else.

          If you look in any standard reference, you'll find die caps defined
          as I have defined them. It is a coin that sticks to the die and acts
          as the die face, striking one or more succeeding planchet. Anything
          else is not a die cap.

          If you monkey with the definition, then you leave the door open to
          all sorts of coins being labeled die caps. You yourself have seen
          cupped broadstrikes -- die struck on both faces -- labeled as die
          caps by major grading services. This abuse of the term does the
          hobby no good.

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
          <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
          >
          > Whose "definition" are you using?
          >
          > In numerous pictures of caps in the 1970's and 1980's error sales
          > publications these single coin multistrikes are most always called
          > diecaps.
          >
          > Devine, Weinberg, Roosmalen, Steiner, Ziempher, Fivaz, Stanton,
          > Schemmer, Halpern, Margolis, ANA, ANACS, NCG, PCGS... have all taken
          > called these grey~area items "diecaps" in their printed photos,
          sales
          > catalogues, websites, slab descriptions...
          >
          > Indeed, you may be right strictly using this stated definition.
          Single
          > coin multistike coins with brockage or uniface 2rd sides may not be
          > diecap by this definition. But,
          >
          > For me, I disagree on this piece and on the 1856 lg Cent, and on
          1888
          > Morgan, ect whose 4 year old photos were mentioned earlier.
          >
          > The 1856 Lg Cent die cap is a diecap in my eyes, and also for all
          the
          > important encapsulators these days from what I see on ebay. I think
          > the 1856 1c is currently in a "diecap" slab. I recognize it from
          when
          > Mike Farrone owned in in 1981ish. He was a local error specialist
          with
          > amazing 1800's "diecaps". If I remember right he had the 1856 in a
          > customized 8x10 capitol plastics "diecap" gold embossed holder of
          his
          > making, way back before "slabs". Back then Farrone had more than a
          > dozen type coin caps. Many of his pieces displayed this "single"
          coin
          > possibility die cap. He'd bring them to coin club show & tell. Quite
          > impressive "diecaps".
          >
          > Lindy
        • Mike Diamond
          I see no rings in the photo, but I ll have to take your word for it. The presence of 10 strike rings is inconsistent with presence of a crisp brockage on the
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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            I see no rings in the photo, but I'll have to take your word for it.
            The presence of 10 strike rings is inconsistent with presence of a
            crisp brockage on the reverse that shows uniform expansion from edge
            to center. I see no evidence that this coin produced a single
            counterbrockage, which is what a die cap of this nature must do.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10 rings
            > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!! Plus
            > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a die
            > cap.
            >
            > Mike Byers
            > http://mikebyers.com
          • byersnc
            It s hard to show the inner walls of the obv die cap in scans. But I will have my webmaster try and take a shot showing the rings. Mike Byers
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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              It's hard to show the inner walls of the obv die cap in scans. But I
              will have my webmaster try and take a shot showing the rings.


              Mike Byers
              http://mikebyers.com












              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
              <mdia1@a...> wrote:
              >
              > I see no rings in the photo, but I'll have to take your word for
              it.
              > The presence of 10 strike rings is inconsistent with presence of a
              > crisp brockage on the reverse that shows uniform expansion from
              edge
              > to center. I see no evidence that this coin produced a single
              > counterbrockage, which is what a die cap of this nature must do.
              >
              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
              > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10
              rings
              > > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!! Plus
              > > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a
              die
              > > cap.
              > >
              > > Mike Byers
              > > http://mikebyers.com
            • Mike Diamond
              Same problem as before. I can t rule out a die cap, but I see no conclusive evidence that this coin received more than one strike. Cupping is not reliable
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                Same problem as before. I can't rule out a die cap, but I see no
                conclusive evidence that this coin received more than one strike.
                Cupping is not reliable criterion. The brockage is crisp and appears
                uniformly expanded from edge to center.

                I have several deeply cupped broadstrikes with crisp, full brockages
                on the reverse. I wouldn't call any of them a die cap, for the six
                reasons I laid out in a previous e-mail. I really don't care what
                the market demands or expects. I'm not in the business of selling
                coins. My only concern is accuracy.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here's the 2c obv die cap from his
                > collection:
                >
                > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
                > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapsm.jpg
                >
                > Mike Byers
                > http://mikebyers.com
              • Mike Diamond
                Thanks. I would think that 10 strikes would have absolutely obliterated the central portion of the brockage. Considering the amount of lateral (as well as
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                  Thanks. I would think that 10 strikes would have absolutely
                  obliterated the central portion of the brockage. Considering the
                  amount of lateral (as well as upward) expansion of the coin, both top
                  and bottom coins would have been struck out-of-collar. That
                  situation greatly accelerates the expansion and obliteration of any
                  brockage image on the reverse of a coin.

                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > It's hard to show the inner walls of the obv die cap in scans. But
                  I
                  > will have my webmaster try and take a shot showing the rings.
                  >
                  >
                  > Mike Byers
                  > http://mikebyers.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                  > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I see no rings in the photo, but I'll have to take your word for
                  > it.
                  > > The presence of 10 strike rings is inconsistent with presence of
                  a
                  > > crisp brockage on the reverse that shows uniform expansion from
                  > edge
                  > > to center. I see no evidence that this coin produced a single
                  > > counterbrockage, which is what a die cap of this nature must do.
                  > >
                  > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                  > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10
                  > rings
                  > > > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!!
                  Plus
                  > > > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a
                  > die
                  > > > cap.
                  > > >
                  > > > Mike Byers
                  > > > http://mikebyers.com
                • Mike Diamond
                  ... that ... That s certainly possible. You can only go so far with a picture, even a good one. ... To an extent. But other factors must be weighed as well.
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                    <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I know if you saw all the previous die details from prior strikes
                    that
                    > would help.

                    That's certainly possible. You can only go so far with a picture,
                    even a good one.
                    >
                    > But as I've stated before "size matters".

                    To an extent. But other factors must be weighed as well.

                    I cannot eloquently argue my
                    > point as you can. For me, grossly larger saucer size is evidence of
                    > multistrikes.

                    I mostly work with recent coins, and for these I have long ago
                    concluded that size is largely irrelevant. I've seen half-dollar
                    size cents for which I could find evidence of only a single strike.
                    I have seen multi-struck cents that show very little expansion, even
                    when struck out of collar. You've got to consider the totality of
                    the evidence. I'm not even entirely convinced of the reliability
                    of "strike lines". I have a minor off-center quarter that shows
                    three or four sets of what appear to be strike lines, but I am sure
                    that the quarter was struck only once. I have no idea why these
                    lines formed.

                    In fact it's usually the only evidence remaining since
                    > the die strike details can be completely obliterated.

                    I will agree with you on that point.
                    >
                    >
                    > For me the 1856 1c Farone Cap may have rode on top of just one 1856
                    > coin for 10 strikes. Thats cool. I'd accept that and still call it a
                    > die cap. Heck, even if it showed no "10 tiered" steps I'd still like
                    > it as a "diecap" as pictured.

                    You are correct that a brockage image will maintain its integrity
                    longer as part of a "nested pair" than if it was striking a fresh
                    planchet each time. But still, ten strikes is a lot.

                    It is good to be able to disagree in an atmosphere of friendliness
                    and mutual respect. That's what this hobby is all about.
                  • Mike Diamond
                    By the same token, there have been times when I ve had to issue a course correction. I had to sink the idea of wraparound strikes (lateral indents) when it
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                      By the same token, there have been times when I've had to issue a
                      course correction. I had to sink the idea of "wraparound strikes"
                      (lateral indents) when it became clear that I was dealing with
                      concave chain strikes. (You will often see these described and
                      slabbed as "off-center with clip" errors.)

                      In my recent article on misaligned anvil dies, I concluded that the
                      Virginia quarters with misaligned anvil dies came after the off-
                      center quarters and those with the misaligned hammer die. That
                      conclusion was based on the apparent absence of obverse (anvil)
                      collar clash in the latter two groups. I was wrong about that. I
                      subsequently undertook a study of die stages based on the appearance
                      of die scratches and other blemishes (soon to be published on the
                      CONECA website), and I found that the mad anvil cohort are sprinkled
                      throughout six die stages, and that they bracket the off-center and
                      mad hammer cohorts. One can be misled by evidence that seems to be
                      convincing at the time. That occurs in every field of inquiry.

                      Like you, I also believed for a long time that deeply cupped cents
                      with a full brockage reverse were legitimate die caps. The
                      appearance fooled me because, like you, I placed a lot of faith in
                      features like wall height and verticality. Subsequent consideration
                      of all available evidence (summed up in the six points I laid out in
                      an earlier debate) led me to reject that long-held assumption. One
                      must always be ready to question the status quo.

                      You keep holding my feet to the fire, Lindy. Same goes for everybody
                      and anybody on ECIE. I encourage dissent and debate. Sometimes I
                      miss the contributions of my friend Terry (pwrwgndrvr) who was one of
                      the best devil's advocates I've ever encountered.

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                      <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Of course, respectfully disagreeing is all good and the best
                      option.
                      >
                      > Somewhere, sometime ago I read "people won't remember what you said
                      > just how it made them feel".
                      >
                      > Anyways, I'm still quite happy that you convinced me the 1966 25c I
                      > have has an obv brockage by elliptical clip 25c coin that remained
                      > exactly where it was struck. Pretty neat indeed, you created an
                      error
                      > hole, then filled it right in. I thought for sure it was struck
                      > through an off center 25c that remained where it was struck. I was
                      > wrong. Didn't ever consider the collar's direct relationship to the
                      > 1966 rev 25c die.
                      >
                      > Lindy
                    • byersnc
                      Lindy- I ended up with 6 of the 9 early type obv die caps that Mike Faraone had. One of the 3 that I didn t end up with was his Buffalo Nickel obv die cap. It
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                        Lindy- I ended up with 6 of the 9 early type obv die caps that Mike
                        Faraone had. One of the 3 that I didn't end up with was his Buffalo
                        Nickel obv die cap. It is owned by Bob Entlich, a Stack's employee.
                        In 2004 I offered him $30,000 (thirty thousand) and he passed. He
                        said he was offered that 2 other times and that it was not for sale.


                        Mike Byers
                        http://mikebyers.com







                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                        <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Exactly. He had put them in custom capital plastics holders just
                        like
                        > your 2c piece. With his name on each and ana id #. It was an
                        > incredible set of diecaps to behold.
                        >
                        > Lindy
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                        > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here's the 2c obv die cap from
                        his
                        > > collection:
                        > >
                        > > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
                        > > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapsm.jpg
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Mike Byers
                        > > http://mikebyers.com
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                        > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10
                        rings
                        > > > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!!
                        Plus
                        > > > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a
                        die
                        > > > cap.
                        > > >
                        > > > Mike Byers
                        > > > http://mikebyers.com
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In
                        errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                        > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Whose "definition" are you using?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > In numerous pictures of caps in the 1970's and 1980's error
                        sales
                        > > > > publications these single coin multistrikes are most always
                        > > called
                        > > > > diecaps.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Devine, Weinberg, Roosmalen, Steiner, Ziempher, Fivaz,
                        Stanton,
                        > > > > Schemmer, Halpern, Margolis, ANA, ANACS, NCG, PCGS... have
                        all
                        > > > taken
                        > > > > called these grey~area items "diecaps" in their printed
                        photos,
                        > > > sales
                        > > > > catalogues, websites, slab descriptions...
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Indeed, you may be right strictly using this stated
                        definition.
                        > > > Single
                        > > > > coin multistike coins with brockage or uniface 2rd sides may
                        not
                        > > be
                        > > > > diecap by this definition. But,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > For me, I disagree on this piece and on the 1856 lg Cent,
                        and
                        > > on
                        > > > 1888
                        > > > > Morgan, ect whose 4 year old photos were mentioned earlier.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The 1856 Lg Cent die cap is a diecap in my eyes, and also
                        for
                        > > all
                        > > > the
                        > > > > important encapsulators these days from what I see on ebay.
                        I
                        > > think
                        > > > > the 1856 1c is currently in a "diecap" slab. I recognize it
                        from
                        > > > when
                        > > > > Mike Farrone owned in in 1981ish. He was a local error
                        > > specialist
                        > > > with
                        > > > > amazing 1800's "diecaps". If I remember right he had the
                        1856 in
                        > > a
                        > > > > customized 8x10 capitol plastics "diecap" gold embossed
                        holder
                        > > of
                        > > > his
                        > > > > making, way back before "slabs". Back then Farrone had more
                        than
                        > > a
                        > > > > dozen type coin caps. Many of his pieces displayed
                        this "single"
                        > > > coin
                        > > > > possibility die cap. He'd bring them to coin club show &
                        tell.
                        > > > Quite
                        > > > > impressive "diecaps".
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Lindy
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                        > > > Diamond"
                        > > > > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In
                        > > > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                        > > > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I agree it's a nested pair bottom coin. Where I disagree
                        is
                        > > > that its
                        > > > > > > not a "diecap" just because it was multistruck into just
                        one
                        > > > coin.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > But then you'd need to re-define what a die cap is. By
                        > > > definition, a
                        > > > > > die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER
                        > > > planchet
                        > > > > > AFTER the initial strike. It is a coin that must function
                        AS
                        > > > the die
                        > > > > > face in striking fresh coins. By definition, it is NOT
                        > > > sufficient
                        > > > > > simply to be multi-struck against the same coin or
                        planchet
                        > > that
                        > > > was
                        > > > > > involved in the initial strike.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > If
                        > > > > > > you had both pieces to this set: "obv die cap" &
                        this "rev
                        > > die
                        > > > cap"
                        > > > > > > and together it appeared they received 3+ strikes
                        together,
                        > > > how
                        > > > > > would
                        > > > > > > you describe the two? I'm guessing not a die cap set,
                        right?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > The top coin was certainly an obverse die cap or at least
                        > > > started as
                        > > > > > an obverse die cap (it may have secondarily adhered to the
                        > > > bottom
                        > > > > > coin). It is not the case, however, that the bottom coin
                        is a
                        > > > > > reverse die cap. It is a coin with a full, centered
                        brockage
                        > > > that
                        > > > > > temporarily wrapped around the obverse cap. The bottom
                        coin
                        > > > never
                        > > > > > contacted another coin or planchet.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > In the old days, turn of the century before last, you'd
                        get
                        > > the
                        > > > > > > classic thimbal shape diecaps. These days you get coins
                        > > struck
                        > > > > > > together numerous times, obliterating previous die
                        details
                        > > and
                        > > > > > > displaying saucer shape, grossly expanded diameters.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Multiple strikes and cupping do not necessarily translate
                        into
                        > > a
                        > > > die
                        > > > > > cap. The definition of a die cap is quite precise. This
                        does
                        > > > not
                        > > > > > detract from the interest and value of this coin. But you
                        > > would
                        > > > have
                        > > > > > to call it what it is -- a deeply cupped, multi-stuck,
                        > > brockaged
                        > > > cent.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > If you loosen up the definition for a cap, then you get
                        the
                        > > > situation
                        > > > > > we see today in slabbed and raw coins. All sorts of coins
                        are
                        > > > being
                        > > > > > called die caps which aren't, from simple cupped
                        broadstrikes,
                        > > > to
                        > > > > > uniface broadstrikes, to broadstrikes with full, centered,
                        > > first-
                        > > > > > strike brockages, etc.
                      • fred_weinberg
                        I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info....... Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info.......

                          Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel
                          Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt Collection.
                          That collection had over 2,000 MAJOR error type
                          coins, starting in 1794, and nothing was past 1955 !!

                          The Buffalo Rev. Cap was, and is Unique..............

                          The Jerri Bobbie Morgan Cap was Ex-Roy Gray - he
                          had it at the very first EAR in 1967 at the Hollywood-
                          Roosevelt Hotel. It was priced at $1,000 at the time
                          (pretty sure I remember the price), and on the last
                          day of the show (Sunday), my mother came by, and
                          as I introduced her to all of my error buddies
                          (Mort Goodman, Arnie Margolis, Syd Kass, plus all
                          the dealers) she saw the Morgan piece in Roys showcase,
                          and said quote "Your Father would Love that for an
                          Ashtray!!"

                          I will never forget the look on Roy's face!!!

                          Oh, well, another new year, and more old memories..........

                          See you guys tomorrow morning........it's been fun reading
                          the posts today.....
                          Fred



                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Lindy- I ended up with 6 of the 9 early type obv die caps that
                          Mike
                          > Faraone had. One of the 3 that I didn't end up with was his
                          Buffalo
                          > Nickel obv die cap. It is owned by Bob Entlich, a Stack's
                          employee.
                          > In 2004 I offered him $30,000 (thirty thousand) and he passed. He
                          > said he was offered that 2 other times and that it was not for
                          sale.
                          >
                          >
                          > Mike Byers
                          > http://mikebyers.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                          > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Exactly. He had put them in custom capital plastics holders just
                          > like
                          > > your 2c piece. With his name on each and ana id #. It was an
                          > > incredible set of diecaps to behold.
                          > >
                          > > Lindy
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                          > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here's the 2c obv die cap from
                          > his
                          > > > collection:
                          > > >
                          > > > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
                          > > > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapsm.jpg
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Mike Byers
                          > > > http://mikebyers.com
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                          > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10
                          > rings
                          > > > > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!!
                          > Plus
                          > > > > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's
                          a
                          > die
                          > > > > cap.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Mike Byers
                          > > > > http://mikebyers.com
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In
                          > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                          > > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Whose "definition" are you using?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > In numerous pictures of caps in the 1970's and 1980's
                          error
                          > sales
                          > > > > > publications these single coin multistrikes are most
                          always
                          > > > called
                          > > > > > diecaps.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Devine, Weinberg, Roosmalen, Steiner, Ziempher, Fivaz,
                          > Stanton,
                          > > > > > Schemmer, Halpern, Margolis, ANA, ANACS, NCG, PCGS... have
                          > all
                          > > > > taken
                          > > > > > called these grey~area items "diecaps" in their printed
                          > photos,
                          > > > > sales
                          > > > > > catalogues, websites, slab descriptions...
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Indeed, you may be right strictly using this stated
                          > definition.
                          > > > > Single
                          > > > > > coin multistike coins with brockage or uniface 2rd sides
                          may
                          > not
                          > > > be
                          > > > > > diecap by this definition. But,
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > For me, I disagree on this piece and on the 1856 lg Cent,
                          > and
                          > > > on
                          > > > > 1888
                          > > > > > Morgan, ect whose 4 year old photos were mentioned
                          earlier.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > The 1856 Lg Cent die cap is a diecap in my eyes, and also
                          > for
                          > > > all
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > important encapsulators these days from what I see on
                          ebay.
                          > I
                          > > > think
                          > > > > > the 1856 1c is currently in a "diecap" slab. I recognize
                          it
                          > from
                          > > > > when
                          > > > > > Mike Farrone owned in in 1981ish. He was a local error
                          > > > specialist
                          > > > > with
                          > > > > > amazing 1800's "diecaps". If I remember right he had the
                          > 1856 in
                          > > > a
                          > > > > > customized 8x10 capitol plastics "diecap" gold embossed
                          > holder
                          > > > of
                          > > > > his
                          > > > > > making, way back before "slabs". Back then Farrone had
                          more
                          > than
                          > > > a
                          > > > > > dozen type coin caps. Many of his pieces displayed
                          > this "single"
                          > > > > coin
                          > > > > > possibility die cap. He'd bring them to coin club show &
                          > tell.
                          > > > > Quite
                          > > > > > impressive "diecaps".
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Lindy
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In
                          errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                          > > > > Diamond"
                          > > > > > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > --- In
                          > > > > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                          > > > > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > I agree it's a nested pair bottom coin. Where I
                          disagree
                          > is
                          > > > > that its
                          > > > > > > > not a "diecap" just because it was multistruck into
                          just
                          > one
                          > > > > coin.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > But then you'd need to re-define what a die cap is. By
                          > > > > definition, a
                          > > > > > > die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER
                          > > > > planchet
                          > > > > > > AFTER the initial strike. It is a coin that must
                          function
                          > AS
                          > > > > the die
                          > > > > > > face in striking fresh coins. By definition, it is NOT
                          > > > > sufficient
                          > > > > > > simply to be multi-struck against the same coin or
                          > planchet
                          > > > that
                          > > > > was
                          > > > > > > involved in the initial strike.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > If
                          > > > > > > > you had both pieces to this set: "obv die cap" &
                          > this "rev
                          > > > die
                          > > > > cap"
                          > > > > > > > and together it appeared they received 3+ strikes
                          > together,
                          > > > > how
                          > > > > > > would
                          > > > > > > > you describe the two? I'm guessing not a die cap set,
                          > right?
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > The top coin was certainly an obverse die cap or at
                          least
                          > > > > started as
                          > > > > > > an obverse die cap (it may have secondarily adhered to
                          the
                          > > > > bottom
                          > > > > > > coin). It is not the case, however, that the bottom
                          coin
                          > is a
                          > > > > > > reverse die cap. It is a coin with a full, centered
                          > brockage
                          > > > > that
                          > > > > > > temporarily wrapped around the obverse cap. The bottom
                          > coin
                          > > > > never
                          > > > > > > contacted another coin or planchet.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > In the old days, turn of the century before last,
                          you'd
                          > get
                          > > > the
                          > > > > > > > classic thimbal shape diecaps. These days you get
                          coins
                          > > > struck
                          > > > > > > > together numerous times, obliterating previous die
                          > details
                          > > > and
                          > > > > > > > displaying saucer shape, grossly expanded diameters.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Multiple strikes and cupping do not necessarily
                          translate
                          > into
                          > > > a
                          > > > > die
                          > > > > > > cap. The definition of a die cap is quite precise.
                          This
                          > does
                          > > > > not
                          > > > > > > detract from the interest and value of this coin. But
                          you
                          > > > would
                          > > > > have
                          > > > > > > to call it what it is -- a deeply cupped, multi-stuck,
                          > > > brockaged
                          > > > > cent.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > If you loosen up the definition for a cap, then you get
                          > the
                          > > > > situation
                          > > > > > > we see today in slabbed and raw coins. All sorts of
                          coins
                          > are
                          > > > > being
                          > > > > > > called die caps which aren't, from simple cupped
                          > broadstrikes,
                          > > > > to
                          > > > > > > uniface broadstrikes, to broadstrikes with full,
                          centered,
                          > > > first-
                          > > > > > > strike brockages, etc.
                        • Mike Diamond
                          We always enjoy your trips down memory lane, Fred. Since buffalo nickels were struck with the reverse die acting as the hammer die, a buffalo nickel reverse
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
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                            We always enjoy your trips down memory lane, Fred.

                            Since buffalo nickels were struck with the reverse die acting as the
                            hammer die, a buffalo nickel reverse die cap would be equivalent to
                            an obverse die cap for most other denominations.

                            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info.......
                            >
                            > Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel
                            > Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt Collection.
                            > That collection had over 2,000 MAJOR error type
                            > coins, starting in 1794, and nothing was past 1955 !!
                            >
                            > The Buffalo Rev. Cap was, and is Unique..............
                            >
                            > The Jerri Bobbie Morgan Cap was Ex-Roy Gray - he
                            > had it at the very first EAR in 1967 at the Hollywood-
                            > Roosevelt Hotel. It was priced at $1,000 at the time
                            > (pretty sure I remember the price), and on the last
                            > day of the show (Sunday), my mother came by, and
                            > as I introduced her to all of my error buddies
                            > (Mort Goodman, Arnie Margolis, Syd Kass, plus all
                            > the dealers) she saw the Morgan piece in Roys showcase,
                            > and said quote "Your Father would Love that for an
                            > Ashtray!!"
                            >
                            > I will never forget the look on Roy's face!!!
                            >
                            > Oh, well, another new year, and more old memories..........
                            >
                            > See you guys tomorrow morning........it's been fun reading
                            > the posts today.....
                            > Fred
                          • fred_weinberg
                            Yes, when I said Buffalo Nickel Reverse Cap Die, I meant the reverse design, not the reverse die. Should I have said Reverse Buffalo Nickel Cap Die? Most
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Yes, when I said Buffalo Nickel Reverse Cap Die,
                              I meant the reverse design, not the reverse die.
                              Should I have said Reverse Buffalo Nickel Cap Die?

                              Most Buffalo Nickels, Mercury Dimes, most Standing Liberty
                              Quarters, and Peace dollars have the reverse die as
                              the Anvil (top) die.


                              Fred



                              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                              <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                              >
                              > We always enjoy your trips down memory lane, Fred.
                              >
                              > Since buffalo nickels were struck with the reverse die acting as
                              the
                              > hammer die, a buffalo nickel reverse die cap would be equivalent
                              to
                              > an obverse die cap for most other denominations.
                              >
                              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                              > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info.......
                              > >
                              > > Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel
                              > > Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt Collection.
                              > > That collection had over 2,000 MAJOR error type
                              > > coins, starting in 1794, and nothing was past 1955 !!
                              > >
                              > > The Buffalo Rev. Cap was, and is Unique..............
                              > >
                              > > The Jerri Bobbie Morgan Cap was Ex-Roy Gray - he
                              > > had it at the very first EAR in 1967 at the Hollywood-
                              > > Roosevelt Hotel. It was priced at $1,000 at the time
                              > > (pretty sure I remember the price), and on the last
                              > > day of the show (Sunday), my mother came by, and
                              > > as I introduced her to all of my error buddies
                              > > (Mort Goodman, Arnie Margolis, Syd Kass, plus all
                              > > the dealers) she saw the Morgan piece in Roys showcase,
                              > > and said quote "Your Father would Love that for an
                              > > Ashtray!!"
                              > >
                              > > I will never forget the look on Roy's face!!!
                              > >
                              > > Oh, well, another new year, and more old memories..........
                              > >
                              > > See you guys tomorrow morning........it's been fun reading
                              > > the posts today.....
                              > > Fred
                            • byersnc
                              Fred- that s why I called it an obverse die cap- it s an obverse die cap of the REVERSE DESIGN, since the reverse die was most likely the anvil die... Speaking
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Fred- that's why I called it an obverse die cap- it's an obverse die
                                cap of the REVERSE DESIGN, since the reverse die was most likely the
                                anvil die...


                                Speaking of Mercury Dimes using the reverse die as the anvil die-
                                check out this unique Mercury Dime obverse die cap of the reverse
                                design:

                                http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2203151882


                                Mike Byers
                                http://mikebyers.com

                                -----------------------------------------------




                                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                                <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Yes, when I said Buffalo Nickel Reverse Cap Die,
                                > I meant the reverse design, not the reverse die.
                                > Should I have said Reverse Buffalo Nickel Cap Die?
                                >
                                > Most Buffalo Nickels, Mercury Dimes, most Standing Liberty
                                > Quarters, and Peace dollars have the reverse die as
                                > the Anvil (top) die.
                                >
                                >
                                > Fred
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                                Diamond"
                                > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > We always enjoy your trips down memory lane, Fred.
                                > >
                                > > Since buffalo nickels were struck with the reverse die acting as
                                > the
                                > > hammer die, a buffalo nickel reverse die cap would be equivalent
                                > to
                                > > an obverse die cap for most other denominations.
                                > >
                                > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
                                fred_weinberg
                                > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info.......
                                > > >
                                > > > Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel
                                > > > Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt Collection.
                                > > > That collection had over 2,000 MAJOR error type
                                > > > coins, starting in 1794, and nothing was past 1955 !!
                                > > >
                                > > > The Buffalo Rev. Cap was, and is Unique..............
                                > > >
                                > > > The Jerri Bobbie Morgan Cap was Ex-Roy Gray - he
                                > > > had it at the very first EAR in 1967 at the Hollywood-
                                > > > Roosevelt Hotel. It was priced at $1,000 at the time
                                > > > (pretty sure I remember the price), and on the last
                                > > > day of the show (Sunday), my mother came by, and
                                > > > as I introduced her to all of my error buddies
                                > > > (Mort Goodman, Arnie Margolis, Syd Kass, plus all
                                > > > the dealers) she saw the Morgan piece in Roys showcase,
                                > > > and said quote "Your Father would Love that for an
                                > > > Ashtray!!"
                                > > >
                                > > > I will never forget the look on Roy's face!!!
                                > > >
                                > > > Oh, well, another new year, and more old memories..........
                                > > >
                                > > > See you guys tomorrow morning........it's been fun reading
                                > > > the posts today.....
                                > > > Fred
                              • Mike Diamond
                                Oh, I wasn t questioning your description. I was just letting folks who were unfamiliar with the die set-up for buffalo nickels know that a reverse die cap in
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Oh, I wasn't questioning your description. I was just letting folks
                                  who were unfamiliar with the die set-up for buffalo nickels know that
                                  a reverse die cap in a buffalo nickel is functionally equivalent to
                                  an obverse die cap in, say, a Jefferson nickel.

                                  You can call it a reverse die cap or, perhaps less confusingly, a
                                  hammer die cap.

                                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Yes, when I said Buffalo Nickel Reverse Cap Die,
                                  > I meant the reverse design, not the reverse die.
                                  > Should I have said Reverse Buffalo Nickel Cap Die?
                                  >
                                  > Most Buffalo Nickels, Mercury Dimes, most Standing Liberty
                                  > Quarters, and Peace dollars have the reverse die as
                                  > the Anvil (top) die.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Fred
                                • Mike Diamond
                                  No, it s a hammer die cap, not an obverse die cap. An obverse die cap in a buffalo nickel would be functionally equivalent to a reverse die cap in most other
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    No, it's a hammer die cap, not an obverse die cap. An obverse die
                                    cap in a buffalo nickel would be functionally equivalent to a reverse
                                    die cap in most other denominations.

                                    Like I say, when you're dealing with Mercury dimes and buffalo
                                    nickels, it probably causes less confusion if you talk about hammer
                                    die caps and anvil die caps.

                                    Your Mercury dime "hammer die cap" with full, centered brockage of
                                    the reverse design on the obverse face faces the same problem as the
                                    1886 Morgan dollar and 1856 large cent. The brockage is full, crisp,
                                    and appears to be a first-strike brockage. The sharp brockage shows
                                    uniform expansion and clarity from edge to center, indicating it did
                                    not strike another planchet after initial formation and thus fails to
                                    qualify as a die cap.

                                    But no matter what you call it, it's still unique.

                                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                                    <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Fred- that's why I called it an obverse die cap- it's an obverse
                                    die
                                    > cap of the REVERSE DESIGN, since the reverse die was most likely
                                    the
                                    > anvil die...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Speaking of Mercury Dimes using the reverse die as the anvil die-
                                    > check out this unique Mercury Dime obverse die cap of the reverse
                                    > design:
                                    >
                                    > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2203151882
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Mike Byers
                                    > http://mikebyers.com
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