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Re: Bottom half of "nested pair"

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  • Mike Diamond
    ... But then you d need to re-define what a die cap is. By definition, a die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER planchet AFTER the initial
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
      <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
      >
      > I agree it's a nested pair bottom coin. Where I disagree is that its
      > not a "diecap" just because it was multistruck into just one coin.

      But then you'd need to re-define what a die cap is. By definition, a
      die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER planchet
      AFTER the initial strike. It is a coin that must function AS the die
      face in striking fresh coins. By definition, it is NOT sufficient
      simply to be multi-struck against the same coin or planchet that was
      involved in the initial strike.

      If
      > you had both pieces to this set: "obv die cap" & this "rev die cap"
      > and together it appeared they received 3+ strikes together, how
      would
      > you describe the two? I'm guessing not a die cap set, right?

      The top coin was certainly an obverse die cap or at least started as
      an obverse die cap (it may have secondarily adhered to the bottom
      coin). It is not the case, however, that the bottom coin is a
      reverse die cap. It is a coin with a full, centered brockage that
      temporarily wrapped around the obverse cap. The bottom coin never
      contacted another coin or planchet.
      >
      > In the old days, turn of the century before last, you'd get the
      > classic thimbal shape diecaps. These days you get coins struck
      > together numerous times, obliterating previous die details and
      > displaying saucer shape, grossly expanded diameters.

      Multiple strikes and cupping do not necessarily translate into a die
      cap. The definition of a die cap is quite precise. This does not
      detract from the interest and value of this coin. But you would have
      to call it what it is -- a deeply cupped, multi-stuck, brockaged cent.

      If you loosen up the definition for a cap, then you get the situation
      we see today in slabbed and raw coins. All sorts of coins are being
      called die caps which aren't, from simple cupped broadstrikes, to
      uniface broadstrikes, to broadstrikes with full, centered, first-
      strike brockages, etc.
    • byersnc
      Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10 rings around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!! Plus everyone you mentioned in
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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        Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10 rings
        around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!! Plus
        everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a die
        cap.

        Mike Byers
        http://mikebyers.com









        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
        <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
        >
        > Whose "definition" are you using?
        >
        > In numerous pictures of caps in the 1970's and 1980's error sales
        > publications these single coin multistrikes are most always called
        > diecaps.
        >
        > Devine, Weinberg, Roosmalen, Steiner, Ziempher, Fivaz, Stanton,
        > Schemmer, Halpern, Margolis, ANA, ANACS, NCG, PCGS... have all
        taken
        > called these grey~area items "diecaps" in their printed photos,
        sales
        > catalogues, websites, slab descriptions...
        >
        > Indeed, you may be right strictly using this stated definition.
        Single
        > coin multistike coins with brockage or uniface 2rd sides may not be
        > diecap by this definition. But,
        >
        > For me, I disagree on this piece and on the 1856 lg Cent, and on
        1888
        > Morgan, ect whose 4 year old photos were mentioned earlier.
        >
        > The 1856 Lg Cent die cap is a diecap in my eyes, and also for all
        the
        > important encapsulators these days from what I see on ebay. I think
        > the 1856 1c is currently in a "diecap" slab. I recognize it from
        when
        > Mike Farrone owned in in 1981ish. He was a local error specialist
        with
        > amazing 1800's "diecaps". If I remember right he had the 1856 in a
        > customized 8x10 capitol plastics "diecap" gold embossed holder of
        his
        > making, way back before "slabs". Back then Farrone had more than a
        > dozen type coin caps. Many of his pieces displayed this "single"
        coin
        > possibility die cap. He'd bring them to coin club show & tell.
        Quite
        > impressive "diecaps".
        >
        > Lindy
        >
        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
        Diamond"
        > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In
        errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
        > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I agree it's a nested pair bottom coin. Where I disagree is
        that its
        > > > not a "diecap" just because it was multistruck into just one
        coin.
        > >
        > > But then you'd need to re-define what a die cap is. By
        definition, a
        > > die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER
        planchet
        > > AFTER the initial strike. It is a coin that must function AS
        the die
        > > face in striking fresh coins. By definition, it is NOT
        sufficient
        > > simply to be multi-struck against the same coin or planchet that
        was
        > > involved in the initial strike.
        > >
        > > If
        > > > you had both pieces to this set: "obv die cap" & this "rev die
        cap"
        > > > and together it appeared they received 3+ strikes together,
        how
        > > would
        > > > you describe the two? I'm guessing not a die cap set, right?
        > >
        > > The top coin was certainly an obverse die cap or at least
        started as
        > > an obverse die cap (it may have secondarily adhered to the
        bottom
        > > coin). It is not the case, however, that the bottom coin is a
        > > reverse die cap. It is a coin with a full, centered brockage
        that
        > > temporarily wrapped around the obverse cap. The bottom coin
        never
        > > contacted another coin or planchet.
        > > >
        > > > In the old days, turn of the century before last, you'd get the
        > > > classic thimbal shape diecaps. These days you get coins struck
        > > > together numerous times, obliterating previous die details and
        > > > displaying saucer shape, grossly expanded diameters.
        > >
        > > Multiple strikes and cupping do not necessarily translate into a
        die
        > > cap. The definition of a die cap is quite precise. This does
        not
        > > detract from the interest and value of this coin. But you would
        have
        > > to call it what it is -- a deeply cupped, multi-stuck, brockaged
        cent.
        > >
        > > If you loosen up the definition for a cap, then you get the
        situation
        > > we see today in slabbed and raw coins. All sorts of coins are
        being
        > > called die caps which aren't, from simple cupped broadstrikes,
        to
        > > uniface broadstrikes, to broadstrikes with full, centered, first-
        > > strike brockages, etc.
      • byersnc
        Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here s the 2c obv die cap from his collection: http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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          Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here's the 2c obv die cap from his
          collection:

          http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
          http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapsm.jpg




          Mike Byers
          http://mikebyers.com








          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10 rings
          > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!! Plus
          > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a die
          > cap.
          >
          > Mike Byers
          > http://mikebyers.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
          > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Whose "definition" are you using?
          > >
          > > In numerous pictures of caps in the 1970's and 1980's error sales
          > > publications these single coin multistrikes are most always
          called
          > > diecaps.
          > >
          > > Devine, Weinberg, Roosmalen, Steiner, Ziempher, Fivaz, Stanton,
          > > Schemmer, Halpern, Margolis, ANA, ANACS, NCG, PCGS... have all
          > taken
          > > called these grey~area items "diecaps" in their printed photos,
          > sales
          > > catalogues, websites, slab descriptions...
          > >
          > > Indeed, you may be right strictly using this stated definition.
          > Single
          > > coin multistike coins with brockage or uniface 2rd sides may not
          be
          > > diecap by this definition. But,
          > >
          > > For me, I disagree on this piece and on the 1856 lg Cent, and
          on
          > 1888
          > > Morgan, ect whose 4 year old photos were mentioned earlier.
          > >
          > > The 1856 Lg Cent die cap is a diecap in my eyes, and also for
          all
          > the
          > > important encapsulators these days from what I see on ebay. I
          think
          > > the 1856 1c is currently in a "diecap" slab. I recognize it from
          > when
          > > Mike Farrone owned in in 1981ish. He was a local error
          specialist
          > with
          > > amazing 1800's "diecaps". If I remember right he had the 1856 in
          a
          > > customized 8x10 capitol plastics "diecap" gold embossed holder
          of
          > his
          > > making, way back before "slabs". Back then Farrone had more than
          a
          > > dozen type coin caps. Many of his pieces displayed this "single"
          > coin
          > > possibility die cap. He'd bring them to coin club show & tell.
          > Quite
          > > impressive "diecaps".
          > >
          > > Lindy
          > >
          > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
          > Diamond"
          > > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > --- In
          > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
          > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > I agree it's a nested pair bottom coin. Where I disagree is
          > that its
          > > > > not a "diecap" just because it was multistruck into just one
          > coin.
          > > >
          > > > But then you'd need to re-define what a die cap is. By
          > definition, a
          > > > die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER
          > planchet
          > > > AFTER the initial strike. It is a coin that must function AS
          > the die
          > > > face in striking fresh coins. By definition, it is NOT
          > sufficient
          > > > simply to be multi-struck against the same coin or planchet
          that
          > was
          > > > involved in the initial strike.
          > > >
          > > > If
          > > > > you had both pieces to this set: "obv die cap" & this "rev
          die
          > cap"
          > > > > and together it appeared they received 3+ strikes together,
          > how
          > > > would
          > > > > you describe the two? I'm guessing not a die cap set, right?
          > > >
          > > > The top coin was certainly an obverse die cap or at least
          > started as
          > > > an obverse die cap (it may have secondarily adhered to the
          > bottom
          > > > coin). It is not the case, however, that the bottom coin is a
          > > > reverse die cap. It is a coin with a full, centered brockage
          > that
          > > > temporarily wrapped around the obverse cap. The bottom coin
          > never
          > > > contacted another coin or planchet.
          > > > >
          > > > > In the old days, turn of the century before last, you'd get
          the
          > > > > classic thimbal shape diecaps. These days you get coins
          struck
          > > > > together numerous times, obliterating previous die details
          and
          > > > > displaying saucer shape, grossly expanded diameters.
          > > >
          > > > Multiple strikes and cupping do not necessarily translate into
          a
          > die
          > > > cap. The definition of a die cap is quite precise. This does
          > not
          > > > detract from the interest and value of this coin. But you
          would
          > have
          > > > to call it what it is -- a deeply cupped, multi-stuck,
          brockaged
          > cent.
          > > >
          > > > If you loosen up the definition for a cap, then you get the
          > situation
          > > > we see today in slabbed and raw coins. All sorts of coins are
          > being
          > > > called die caps which aren't, from simple cupped broadstrikes,
          > to
          > > > uniface broadstrikes, to broadstrikes with full, centered,
          first-
          > > > strike brockages, etc.
        • Mike Diamond
          Lindy, people can label coins any way they want to. They can choose to ignore established definitions. They ve been doing so as long as coins have been for
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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            Lindy, people can label coins any way they want to. They can choose
            to ignore established definitions. They've been doing so as long as
            coins have been for sale. If you label a coin "die cap" you attract
            more interest (and more money) than if you label it something else.

            If you look in any standard reference, you'll find die caps defined
            as I have defined them. It is a coin that sticks to the die and acts
            as the die face, striking one or more succeeding planchet. Anything
            else is not a die cap.

            If you monkey with the definition, then you leave the door open to
            all sorts of coins being labeled die caps. You yourself have seen
            cupped broadstrikes -- die struck on both faces -- labeled as die
            caps by major grading services. This abuse of the term does the
            hobby no good.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
            <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
            >
            > Whose "definition" are you using?
            >
            > In numerous pictures of caps in the 1970's and 1980's error sales
            > publications these single coin multistrikes are most always called
            > diecaps.
            >
            > Devine, Weinberg, Roosmalen, Steiner, Ziempher, Fivaz, Stanton,
            > Schemmer, Halpern, Margolis, ANA, ANACS, NCG, PCGS... have all taken
            > called these grey~area items "diecaps" in their printed photos,
            sales
            > catalogues, websites, slab descriptions...
            >
            > Indeed, you may be right strictly using this stated definition.
            Single
            > coin multistike coins with brockage or uniface 2rd sides may not be
            > diecap by this definition. But,
            >
            > For me, I disagree on this piece and on the 1856 lg Cent, and on
            1888
            > Morgan, ect whose 4 year old photos were mentioned earlier.
            >
            > The 1856 Lg Cent die cap is a diecap in my eyes, and also for all
            the
            > important encapsulators these days from what I see on ebay. I think
            > the 1856 1c is currently in a "diecap" slab. I recognize it from
            when
            > Mike Farrone owned in in 1981ish. He was a local error specialist
            with
            > amazing 1800's "diecaps". If I remember right he had the 1856 in a
            > customized 8x10 capitol plastics "diecap" gold embossed holder of
            his
            > making, way back before "slabs". Back then Farrone had more than a
            > dozen type coin caps. Many of his pieces displayed this "single"
            coin
            > possibility die cap. He'd bring them to coin club show & tell. Quite
            > impressive "diecaps".
            >
            > Lindy
          • Mike Diamond
            I see no rings in the photo, but I ll have to take your word for it. The presence of 10 strike rings is inconsistent with presence of a crisp brockage on the
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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              I see no rings in the photo, but I'll have to take your word for it.
              The presence of 10 strike rings is inconsistent with presence of a
              crisp brockage on the reverse that shows uniform expansion from edge
              to center. I see no evidence that this coin produced a single
              counterbrockage, which is what a die cap of this nature must do.

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
              <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              >
              > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10 rings
              > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!! Plus
              > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a die
              > cap.
              >
              > Mike Byers
              > http://mikebyers.com
            • byersnc
              It s hard to show the inner walls of the obv die cap in scans. But I will have my webmaster try and take a shot showing the rings. Mike Byers
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                It's hard to show the inner walls of the obv die cap in scans. But I
                will have my webmaster try and take a shot showing the rings.


                Mike Byers
                http://mikebyers.com












                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                >
                > I see no rings in the photo, but I'll have to take your word for
                it.
                > The presence of 10 strike rings is inconsistent with presence of a
                > crisp brockage on the reverse that shows uniform expansion from
                edge
                > to center. I see no evidence that this coin produced a single
                > counterbrockage, which is what a die cap of this nature must do.
                >
                > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10
                rings
                > > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!! Plus
                > > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a
                die
                > > cap.
                > >
                > > Mike Byers
                > > http://mikebyers.com
              • Mike Diamond
                Same problem as before. I can t rule out a die cap, but I see no conclusive evidence that this coin received more than one strike. Cupping is not reliable
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                  Same problem as before. I can't rule out a die cap, but I see no
                  conclusive evidence that this coin received more than one strike.
                  Cupping is not reliable criterion. The brockage is crisp and appears
                  uniformly expanded from edge to center.

                  I have several deeply cupped broadstrikes with crisp, full brockages
                  on the reverse. I wouldn't call any of them a die cap, for the six
                  reasons I laid out in a previous e-mail. I really don't care what
                  the market demands or expects. I'm not in the business of selling
                  coins. My only concern is accuracy.

                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here's the 2c obv die cap from his
                  > collection:
                  >
                  > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
                  > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapsm.jpg
                  >
                  > Mike Byers
                  > http://mikebyers.com
                • Mike Diamond
                  Thanks. I would think that 10 strikes would have absolutely obliterated the central portion of the brockage. Considering the amount of lateral (as well as
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                    Thanks. I would think that 10 strikes would have absolutely
                    obliterated the central portion of the brockage. Considering the
                    amount of lateral (as well as upward) expansion of the coin, both top
                    and bottom coins would have been struck out-of-collar. That
                    situation greatly accelerates the expansion and obliteration of any
                    brockage image on the reverse of a coin.

                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                    <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > It's hard to show the inner walls of the obv die cap in scans. But
                    I
                    > will have my webmaster try and take a shot showing the rings.
                    >
                    >
                    > Mike Byers
                    > http://mikebyers.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                    > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I see no rings in the photo, but I'll have to take your word for
                    > it.
                    > > The presence of 10 strike rings is inconsistent with presence of
                    a
                    > > crisp brockage on the reverse that shows uniform expansion from
                    > edge
                    > > to center. I see no evidence that this coin produced a single
                    > > counterbrockage, which is what a die cap of this nature must do.
                    > >
                    > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                    > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10
                    > rings
                    > > > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!!
                    Plus
                    > > > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a
                    > die
                    > > > cap.
                    > > >
                    > > > Mike Byers
                    > > > http://mikebyers.com
                  • Mike Diamond
                    ... that ... That s certainly possible. You can only go so far with a picture, even a good one. ... To an extent. But other factors must be weighed as well.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                      <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I know if you saw all the previous die details from prior strikes
                      that
                      > would help.

                      That's certainly possible. You can only go so far with a picture,
                      even a good one.
                      >
                      > But as I've stated before "size matters".

                      To an extent. But other factors must be weighed as well.

                      I cannot eloquently argue my
                      > point as you can. For me, grossly larger saucer size is evidence of
                      > multistrikes.

                      I mostly work with recent coins, and for these I have long ago
                      concluded that size is largely irrelevant. I've seen half-dollar
                      size cents for which I could find evidence of only a single strike.
                      I have seen multi-struck cents that show very little expansion, even
                      when struck out of collar. You've got to consider the totality of
                      the evidence. I'm not even entirely convinced of the reliability
                      of "strike lines". I have a minor off-center quarter that shows
                      three or four sets of what appear to be strike lines, but I am sure
                      that the quarter was struck only once. I have no idea why these
                      lines formed.

                      In fact it's usually the only evidence remaining since
                      > the die strike details can be completely obliterated.

                      I will agree with you on that point.
                      >
                      >
                      > For me the 1856 1c Farone Cap may have rode on top of just one 1856
                      > coin for 10 strikes. Thats cool. I'd accept that and still call it a
                      > die cap. Heck, even if it showed no "10 tiered" steps I'd still like
                      > it as a "diecap" as pictured.

                      You are correct that a brockage image will maintain its integrity
                      longer as part of a "nested pair" than if it was striking a fresh
                      planchet each time. But still, ten strikes is a lot.

                      It is good to be able to disagree in an atmosphere of friendliness
                      and mutual respect. That's what this hobby is all about.
                    • Mike Diamond
                      By the same token, there have been times when I ve had to issue a course correction. I had to sink the idea of wraparound strikes (lateral indents) when it
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                        By the same token, there have been times when I've had to issue a
                        course correction. I had to sink the idea of "wraparound strikes"
                        (lateral indents) when it became clear that I was dealing with
                        concave chain strikes. (You will often see these described and
                        slabbed as "off-center with clip" errors.)

                        In my recent article on misaligned anvil dies, I concluded that the
                        Virginia quarters with misaligned anvil dies came after the off-
                        center quarters and those with the misaligned hammer die. That
                        conclusion was based on the apparent absence of obverse (anvil)
                        collar clash in the latter two groups. I was wrong about that. I
                        subsequently undertook a study of die stages based on the appearance
                        of die scratches and other blemishes (soon to be published on the
                        CONECA website), and I found that the mad anvil cohort are sprinkled
                        throughout six die stages, and that they bracket the off-center and
                        mad hammer cohorts. One can be misled by evidence that seems to be
                        convincing at the time. That occurs in every field of inquiry.

                        Like you, I also believed for a long time that deeply cupped cents
                        with a full brockage reverse were legitimate die caps. The
                        appearance fooled me because, like you, I placed a lot of faith in
                        features like wall height and verticality. Subsequent consideration
                        of all available evidence (summed up in the six points I laid out in
                        an earlier debate) led me to reject that long-held assumption. One
                        must always be ready to question the status quo.

                        You keep holding my feet to the fire, Lindy. Same goes for everybody
                        and anybody on ECIE. I encourage dissent and debate. Sometimes I
                        miss the contributions of my friend Terry (pwrwgndrvr) who was one of
                        the best devil's advocates I've ever encountered.

                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                        <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Of course, respectfully disagreeing is all good and the best
                        option.
                        >
                        > Somewhere, sometime ago I read "people won't remember what you said
                        > just how it made them feel".
                        >
                        > Anyways, I'm still quite happy that you convinced me the 1966 25c I
                        > have has an obv brockage by elliptical clip 25c coin that remained
                        > exactly where it was struck. Pretty neat indeed, you created an
                        error
                        > hole, then filled it right in. I thought for sure it was struck
                        > through an off center 25c that remained where it was struck. I was
                        > wrong. Didn't ever consider the collar's direct relationship to the
                        > 1966 rev 25c die.
                        >
                        > Lindy
                      • byersnc
                        Lindy- I ended up with 6 of the 9 early type obv die caps that Mike Faraone had. One of the 3 that I didn t end up with was his Buffalo Nickel obv die cap. It
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                          Lindy- I ended up with 6 of the 9 early type obv die caps that Mike
                          Faraone had. One of the 3 that I didn't end up with was his Buffalo
                          Nickel obv die cap. It is owned by Bob Entlich, a Stack's employee.
                          In 2004 I offered him $30,000 (thirty thousand) and he passed. He
                          said he was offered that 2 other times and that it was not for sale.


                          Mike Byers
                          http://mikebyers.com







                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                          <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Exactly. He had put them in custom capital plastics holders just
                          like
                          > your 2c piece. With his name on each and ana id #. It was an
                          > incredible set of diecaps to behold.
                          >
                          > Lindy
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                          > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here's the 2c obv die cap from
                          his
                          > > collection:
                          > >
                          > > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
                          > > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapsm.jpg
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Mike Byers
                          > > http://mikebyers.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                          > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10
                          rings
                          > > > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!!
                          Plus
                          > > > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a
                          die
                          > > > cap.
                          > > >
                          > > > Mike Byers
                          > > > http://mikebyers.com
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In
                          errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                          > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Whose "definition" are you using?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > In numerous pictures of caps in the 1970's and 1980's error
                          sales
                          > > > > publications these single coin multistrikes are most always
                          > > called
                          > > > > diecaps.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Devine, Weinberg, Roosmalen, Steiner, Ziempher, Fivaz,
                          Stanton,
                          > > > > Schemmer, Halpern, Margolis, ANA, ANACS, NCG, PCGS... have
                          all
                          > > > taken
                          > > > > called these grey~area items "diecaps" in their printed
                          photos,
                          > > > sales
                          > > > > catalogues, websites, slab descriptions...
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Indeed, you may be right strictly using this stated
                          definition.
                          > > > Single
                          > > > > coin multistike coins with brockage or uniface 2rd sides may
                          not
                          > > be
                          > > > > diecap by this definition. But,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > For me, I disagree on this piece and on the 1856 lg Cent,
                          and
                          > > on
                          > > > 1888
                          > > > > Morgan, ect whose 4 year old photos were mentioned earlier.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The 1856 Lg Cent die cap is a diecap in my eyes, and also
                          for
                          > > all
                          > > > the
                          > > > > important encapsulators these days from what I see on ebay.
                          I
                          > > think
                          > > > > the 1856 1c is currently in a "diecap" slab. I recognize it
                          from
                          > > > when
                          > > > > Mike Farrone owned in in 1981ish. He was a local error
                          > > specialist
                          > > > with
                          > > > > amazing 1800's "diecaps". If I remember right he had the
                          1856 in
                          > > a
                          > > > > customized 8x10 capitol plastics "diecap" gold embossed
                          holder
                          > > of
                          > > > his
                          > > > > making, way back before "slabs". Back then Farrone had more
                          than
                          > > a
                          > > > > dozen type coin caps. Many of his pieces displayed
                          this "single"
                          > > > coin
                          > > > > possibility die cap. He'd bring them to coin club show &
                          tell.
                          > > > Quite
                          > > > > impressive "diecaps".
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Lindy
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                          > > > Diamond"
                          > > > > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In
                          > > > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                          > > > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > I agree it's a nested pair bottom coin. Where I disagree
                          is
                          > > > that its
                          > > > > > > not a "diecap" just because it was multistruck into just
                          one
                          > > > coin.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > But then you'd need to re-define what a die cap is. By
                          > > > definition, a
                          > > > > > die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER
                          > > > planchet
                          > > > > > AFTER the initial strike. It is a coin that must function
                          AS
                          > > > the die
                          > > > > > face in striking fresh coins. By definition, it is NOT
                          > > > sufficient
                          > > > > > simply to be multi-struck against the same coin or
                          planchet
                          > > that
                          > > > was
                          > > > > > involved in the initial strike.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > If
                          > > > > > > you had both pieces to this set: "obv die cap" &
                          this "rev
                          > > die
                          > > > cap"
                          > > > > > > and together it appeared they received 3+ strikes
                          together,
                          > > > how
                          > > > > > would
                          > > > > > > you describe the two? I'm guessing not a die cap set,
                          right?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > The top coin was certainly an obverse die cap or at least
                          > > > started as
                          > > > > > an obverse die cap (it may have secondarily adhered to the
                          > > > bottom
                          > > > > > coin). It is not the case, however, that the bottom coin
                          is a
                          > > > > > reverse die cap. It is a coin with a full, centered
                          brockage
                          > > > that
                          > > > > > temporarily wrapped around the obverse cap. The bottom
                          coin
                          > > > never
                          > > > > > contacted another coin or planchet.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > In the old days, turn of the century before last, you'd
                          get
                          > > the
                          > > > > > > classic thimbal shape diecaps. These days you get coins
                          > > struck
                          > > > > > > together numerous times, obliterating previous die
                          details
                          > > and
                          > > > > > > displaying saucer shape, grossly expanded diameters.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Multiple strikes and cupping do not necessarily translate
                          into
                          > > a
                          > > > die
                          > > > > > cap. The definition of a die cap is quite precise. This
                          does
                          > > > not
                          > > > > > detract from the interest and value of this coin. But you
                          > > would
                          > > > have
                          > > > > > to call it what it is -- a deeply cupped, multi-stuck,
                          > > brockaged
                          > > > cent.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > If you loosen up the definition for a cap, then you get
                          the
                          > > > situation
                          > > > > > we see today in slabbed and raw coins. All sorts of coins
                          are
                          > > > being
                          > > > > > called die caps which aren't, from simple cupped
                          broadstrikes,
                          > > > to
                          > > > > > uniface broadstrikes, to broadstrikes with full, centered,
                          > > first-
                          > > > > > strike brockages, etc.
                        • fred_weinberg
                          I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info....... Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info.......

                            Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel
                            Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt Collection.
                            That collection had over 2,000 MAJOR error type
                            coins, starting in 1794, and nothing was past 1955 !!

                            The Buffalo Rev. Cap was, and is Unique..............

                            The Jerri Bobbie Morgan Cap was Ex-Roy Gray - he
                            had it at the very first EAR in 1967 at the Hollywood-
                            Roosevelt Hotel. It was priced at $1,000 at the time
                            (pretty sure I remember the price), and on the last
                            day of the show (Sunday), my mother came by, and
                            as I introduced her to all of my error buddies
                            (Mort Goodman, Arnie Margolis, Syd Kass, plus all
                            the dealers) she saw the Morgan piece in Roys showcase,
                            and said quote "Your Father would Love that for an
                            Ashtray!!"

                            I will never forget the look on Roy's face!!!

                            Oh, well, another new year, and more old memories..........

                            See you guys tomorrow morning........it's been fun reading
                            the posts today.....
                            Fred



                            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Lindy- I ended up with 6 of the 9 early type obv die caps that
                            Mike
                            > Faraone had. One of the 3 that I didn't end up with was his
                            Buffalo
                            > Nickel obv die cap. It is owned by Bob Entlich, a Stack's
                            employee.
                            > In 2004 I offered him $30,000 (thirty thousand) and he passed. He
                            > said he was offered that 2 other times and that it was not for
                            sale.
                            >
                            >
                            > Mike Byers
                            > http://mikebyers.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                            > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Exactly. He had put them in custom capital plastics holders just
                            > like
                            > > your 2c piece. With his name on each and ana id #. It was an
                            > > incredible set of diecaps to behold.
                            > >
                            > > Lindy
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                            > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here's the 2c obv die cap from
                            > his
                            > > > collection:
                            > > >
                            > > > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
                            > > > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapsm.jpg
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Mike Byers
                            > > > http://mikebyers.com
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                            > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10
                            > rings
                            > > > > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!!
                            > Plus
                            > > > > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's
                            a
                            > die
                            > > > > cap.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Mike Byers
                            > > > > http://mikebyers.com
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In
                            > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                            > > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Whose "definition" are you using?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > In numerous pictures of caps in the 1970's and 1980's
                            error
                            > sales
                            > > > > > publications these single coin multistrikes are most
                            always
                            > > > called
                            > > > > > diecaps.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Devine, Weinberg, Roosmalen, Steiner, Ziempher, Fivaz,
                            > Stanton,
                            > > > > > Schemmer, Halpern, Margolis, ANA, ANACS, NCG, PCGS... have
                            > all
                            > > > > taken
                            > > > > > called these grey~area items "diecaps" in their printed
                            > photos,
                            > > > > sales
                            > > > > > catalogues, websites, slab descriptions...
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Indeed, you may be right strictly using this stated
                            > definition.
                            > > > > Single
                            > > > > > coin multistike coins with brockage or uniface 2rd sides
                            may
                            > not
                            > > > be
                            > > > > > diecap by this definition. But,
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > For me, I disagree on this piece and on the 1856 lg Cent,
                            > and
                            > > > on
                            > > > > 1888
                            > > > > > Morgan, ect whose 4 year old photos were mentioned
                            earlier.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > The 1856 Lg Cent die cap is a diecap in my eyes, and also
                            > for
                            > > > all
                            > > > > the
                            > > > > > important encapsulators these days from what I see on
                            ebay.
                            > I
                            > > > think
                            > > > > > the 1856 1c is currently in a "diecap" slab. I recognize
                            it
                            > from
                            > > > > when
                            > > > > > Mike Farrone owned in in 1981ish. He was a local error
                            > > > specialist
                            > > > > with
                            > > > > > amazing 1800's "diecaps". If I remember right he had the
                            > 1856 in
                            > > > a
                            > > > > > customized 8x10 capitol plastics "diecap" gold embossed
                            > holder
                            > > > of
                            > > > > his
                            > > > > > making, way back before "slabs". Back then Farrone had
                            more
                            > than
                            > > > a
                            > > > > > dozen type coin caps. Many of his pieces displayed
                            > this "single"
                            > > > > coin
                            > > > > > possibility die cap. He'd bring them to coin club show &
                            > tell.
                            > > > > Quite
                            > > > > > impressive "diecaps".
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Lindy
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In
                            errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                            > > > > Diamond"
                            > > > > > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > --- In
                            > > > > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                            > > > > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > I agree it's a nested pair bottom coin. Where I
                            disagree
                            > is
                            > > > > that its
                            > > > > > > > not a "diecap" just because it was multistruck into
                            just
                            > one
                            > > > > coin.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > But then you'd need to re-define what a die cap is. By
                            > > > > definition, a
                            > > > > > > die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER
                            > > > > planchet
                            > > > > > > AFTER the initial strike. It is a coin that must
                            function
                            > AS
                            > > > > the die
                            > > > > > > face in striking fresh coins. By definition, it is NOT
                            > > > > sufficient
                            > > > > > > simply to be multi-struck against the same coin or
                            > planchet
                            > > > that
                            > > > > was
                            > > > > > > involved in the initial strike.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > If
                            > > > > > > > you had both pieces to this set: "obv die cap" &
                            > this "rev
                            > > > die
                            > > > > cap"
                            > > > > > > > and together it appeared they received 3+ strikes
                            > together,
                            > > > > how
                            > > > > > > would
                            > > > > > > > you describe the two? I'm guessing not a die cap set,
                            > right?
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > The top coin was certainly an obverse die cap or at
                            least
                            > > > > started as
                            > > > > > > an obverse die cap (it may have secondarily adhered to
                            the
                            > > > > bottom
                            > > > > > > coin). It is not the case, however, that the bottom
                            coin
                            > is a
                            > > > > > > reverse die cap. It is a coin with a full, centered
                            > brockage
                            > > > > that
                            > > > > > > temporarily wrapped around the obverse cap. The bottom
                            > coin
                            > > > > never
                            > > > > > > contacted another coin or planchet.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > In the old days, turn of the century before last,
                            you'd
                            > get
                            > > > the
                            > > > > > > > classic thimbal shape diecaps. These days you get
                            coins
                            > > > struck
                            > > > > > > > together numerous times, obliterating previous die
                            > details
                            > > > and
                            > > > > > > > displaying saucer shape, grossly expanded diameters.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Multiple strikes and cupping do not necessarily
                            translate
                            > into
                            > > > a
                            > > > > die
                            > > > > > > cap. The definition of a die cap is quite precise.
                            This
                            > does
                            > > > > not
                            > > > > > > detract from the interest and value of this coin. But
                            you
                            > > > would
                            > > > > have
                            > > > > > > to call it what it is -- a deeply cupped, multi-stuck,
                            > > > brockaged
                            > > > > cent.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > If you loosen up the definition for a cap, then you get
                            > the
                            > > > > situation
                            > > > > > > we see today in slabbed and raw coins. All sorts of
                            coins
                            > are
                            > > > > being
                            > > > > > > called die caps which aren't, from simple cupped
                            > broadstrikes,
                            > > > > to
                            > > > > > > uniface broadstrikes, to broadstrikes with full,
                            centered,
                            > > > first-
                            > > > > > > strike brockages, etc.
                          • Mike Diamond
                            We always enjoy your trips down memory lane, Fred. Since buffalo nickels were struck with the reverse die acting as the hammer die, a buffalo nickel reverse
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              We always enjoy your trips down memory lane, Fred.

                              Since buffalo nickels were struck with the reverse die acting as the
                              hammer die, a buffalo nickel reverse die cap would be equivalent to
                              an obverse die cap for most other denominations.

                              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                              <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info.......
                              >
                              > Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel
                              > Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt Collection.
                              > That collection had over 2,000 MAJOR error type
                              > coins, starting in 1794, and nothing was past 1955 !!
                              >
                              > The Buffalo Rev. Cap was, and is Unique..............
                              >
                              > The Jerri Bobbie Morgan Cap was Ex-Roy Gray - he
                              > had it at the very first EAR in 1967 at the Hollywood-
                              > Roosevelt Hotel. It was priced at $1,000 at the time
                              > (pretty sure I remember the price), and on the last
                              > day of the show (Sunday), my mother came by, and
                              > as I introduced her to all of my error buddies
                              > (Mort Goodman, Arnie Margolis, Syd Kass, plus all
                              > the dealers) she saw the Morgan piece in Roys showcase,
                              > and said quote "Your Father would Love that for an
                              > Ashtray!!"
                              >
                              > I will never forget the look on Roy's face!!!
                              >
                              > Oh, well, another new year, and more old memories..........
                              >
                              > See you guys tomorrow morning........it's been fun reading
                              > the posts today.....
                              > Fred
                            • fred_weinberg
                              Yes, when I said Buffalo Nickel Reverse Cap Die, I meant the reverse design, not the reverse die. Should I have said Reverse Buffalo Nickel Cap Die? Most
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Yes, when I said Buffalo Nickel Reverse Cap Die,
                                I meant the reverse design, not the reverse die.
                                Should I have said Reverse Buffalo Nickel Cap Die?

                                Most Buffalo Nickels, Mercury Dimes, most Standing Liberty
                                Quarters, and Peace dollars have the reverse die as
                                the Anvil (top) die.


                                Fred



                                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                >
                                > We always enjoy your trips down memory lane, Fred.
                                >
                                > Since buffalo nickels were struck with the reverse die acting as
                                the
                                > hammer die, a buffalo nickel reverse die cap would be equivalent
                                to
                                > an obverse die cap for most other denominations.
                                >
                                > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                                > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info.......
                                > >
                                > > Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel
                                > > Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt Collection.
                                > > That collection had over 2,000 MAJOR error type
                                > > coins, starting in 1794, and nothing was past 1955 !!
                                > >
                                > > The Buffalo Rev. Cap was, and is Unique..............
                                > >
                                > > The Jerri Bobbie Morgan Cap was Ex-Roy Gray - he
                                > > had it at the very first EAR in 1967 at the Hollywood-
                                > > Roosevelt Hotel. It was priced at $1,000 at the time
                                > > (pretty sure I remember the price), and on the last
                                > > day of the show (Sunday), my mother came by, and
                                > > as I introduced her to all of my error buddies
                                > > (Mort Goodman, Arnie Margolis, Syd Kass, plus all
                                > > the dealers) she saw the Morgan piece in Roys showcase,
                                > > and said quote "Your Father would Love that for an
                                > > Ashtray!!"
                                > >
                                > > I will never forget the look on Roy's face!!!
                                > >
                                > > Oh, well, another new year, and more old memories..........
                                > >
                                > > See you guys tomorrow morning........it's been fun reading
                                > > the posts today.....
                                > > Fred
                              • byersnc
                                Fred- that s why I called it an obverse die cap- it s an obverse die cap of the REVERSE DESIGN, since the reverse die was most likely the anvil die... Speaking
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Fred- that's why I called it an obverse die cap- it's an obverse die
                                  cap of the REVERSE DESIGN, since the reverse die was most likely the
                                  anvil die...


                                  Speaking of Mercury Dimes using the reverse die as the anvil die-
                                  check out this unique Mercury Dime obverse die cap of the reverse
                                  design:

                                  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2203151882


                                  Mike Byers
                                  http://mikebyers.com

                                  -----------------------------------------------




                                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Yes, when I said Buffalo Nickel Reverse Cap Die,
                                  > I meant the reverse design, not the reverse die.
                                  > Should I have said Reverse Buffalo Nickel Cap Die?
                                  >
                                  > Most Buffalo Nickels, Mercury Dimes, most Standing Liberty
                                  > Quarters, and Peace dollars have the reverse die as
                                  > the Anvil (top) die.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Fred
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                                  Diamond"
                                  > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > We always enjoy your trips down memory lane, Fred.
                                  > >
                                  > > Since buffalo nickels were struck with the reverse die acting as
                                  > the
                                  > > hammer die, a buffalo nickel reverse die cap would be equivalent
                                  > to
                                  > > an obverse die cap for most other denominations.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
                                  fred_weinberg
                                  > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info.......
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel
                                  > > > Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt Collection.
                                  > > > That collection had over 2,000 MAJOR error type
                                  > > > coins, starting in 1794, and nothing was past 1955 !!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The Buffalo Rev. Cap was, and is Unique..............
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The Jerri Bobbie Morgan Cap was Ex-Roy Gray - he
                                  > > > had it at the very first EAR in 1967 at the Hollywood-
                                  > > > Roosevelt Hotel. It was priced at $1,000 at the time
                                  > > > (pretty sure I remember the price), and on the last
                                  > > > day of the show (Sunday), my mother came by, and
                                  > > > as I introduced her to all of my error buddies
                                  > > > (Mort Goodman, Arnie Margolis, Syd Kass, plus all
                                  > > > the dealers) she saw the Morgan piece in Roys showcase,
                                  > > > and said quote "Your Father would Love that for an
                                  > > > Ashtray!!"
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I will never forget the look on Roy's face!!!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Oh, well, another new year, and more old memories..........
                                  > > >
                                  > > > See you guys tomorrow morning........it's been fun reading
                                  > > > the posts today.....
                                  > > > Fred
                                • Mike Diamond
                                  Oh, I wasn t questioning your description. I was just letting folks who were unfamiliar with the die set-up for buffalo nickels know that a reverse die cap in
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
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                                    Oh, I wasn't questioning your description. I was just letting folks
                                    who were unfamiliar with the die set-up for buffalo nickels know that
                                    a reverse die cap in a buffalo nickel is functionally equivalent to
                                    an obverse die cap in, say, a Jefferson nickel.

                                    You can call it a reverse die cap or, perhaps less confusingly, a
                                    hammer die cap.

                                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                                    <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Yes, when I said Buffalo Nickel Reverse Cap Die,
                                    > I meant the reverse design, not the reverse die.
                                    > Should I have said Reverse Buffalo Nickel Cap Die?
                                    >
                                    > Most Buffalo Nickels, Mercury Dimes, most Standing Liberty
                                    > Quarters, and Peace dollars have the reverse die as
                                    > the Anvil (top) die.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Fred
                                  • Mike Diamond
                                    No, it s a hammer die cap, not an obverse die cap. An obverse die cap in a buffalo nickel would be functionally equivalent to a reverse die cap in most other
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
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                                      No, it's a hammer die cap, not an obverse die cap. An obverse die
                                      cap in a buffalo nickel would be functionally equivalent to a reverse
                                      die cap in most other denominations.

                                      Like I say, when you're dealing with Mercury dimes and buffalo
                                      nickels, it probably causes less confusion if you talk about hammer
                                      die caps and anvil die caps.

                                      Your Mercury dime "hammer die cap" with full, centered brockage of
                                      the reverse design on the obverse face faces the same problem as the
                                      1886 Morgan dollar and 1856 large cent. The brockage is full, crisp,
                                      and appears to be a first-strike brockage. The sharp brockage shows
                                      uniform expansion and clarity from edge to center, indicating it did
                                      not strike another planchet after initial formation and thus fails to
                                      qualify as a die cap.

                                      But no matter what you call it, it's still unique.

                                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                                      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Fred- that's why I called it an obverse die cap- it's an obverse
                                      die
                                      > cap of the REVERSE DESIGN, since the reverse die was most likely
                                      the
                                      > anvil die...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Speaking of Mercury Dimes using the reverse die as the anvil die-
                                      > check out this unique Mercury Dime obverse die cap of the reverse
                                      > design:
                                      >
                                      > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2203151882
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Mike Byers
                                      > http://mikebyers.com
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