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Bottom half of "nested pair"

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  • Mike Diamond
    This is an interesting error: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3950532109 It looks to be the bottom half of a pair of cents that were
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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      This is an interesting error:

      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3950532109

      It looks to be the bottom half of a pair of cents that were
      temporarily nested together during several strikes. Although it's
      multi-struck and deeply cupped, it probably doesn't fall within the
      strict definition of a die cap, since it probably never struck
      another coin or planchet other than the one it initially stuck to.

      I've seen a number of other coins like this. Sometimes you find a
      brockage in the floor of the cup, sometimes a reverse die cap image,
      sometimes a uniface surface, and sometimes a counterbrockage. It all
      depends on what happened to the top and bottom coins before they were
      struck together.
    • Mike Diamond
      ... But then you d need to re-define what a die cap is. By definition, a die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER planchet AFTER the initial
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
        <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
        >
        > I agree it's a nested pair bottom coin. Where I disagree is that its
        > not a "diecap" just because it was multistruck into just one coin.

        But then you'd need to re-define what a die cap is. By definition, a
        die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER planchet
        AFTER the initial strike. It is a coin that must function AS the die
        face in striking fresh coins. By definition, it is NOT sufficient
        simply to be multi-struck against the same coin or planchet that was
        involved in the initial strike.

        If
        > you had both pieces to this set: "obv die cap" & this "rev die cap"
        > and together it appeared they received 3+ strikes together, how
        would
        > you describe the two? I'm guessing not a die cap set, right?

        The top coin was certainly an obverse die cap or at least started as
        an obverse die cap (it may have secondarily adhered to the bottom
        coin). It is not the case, however, that the bottom coin is a
        reverse die cap. It is a coin with a full, centered brockage that
        temporarily wrapped around the obverse cap. The bottom coin never
        contacted another coin or planchet.
        >
        > In the old days, turn of the century before last, you'd get the
        > classic thimbal shape diecaps. These days you get coins struck
        > together numerous times, obliterating previous die details and
        > displaying saucer shape, grossly expanded diameters.

        Multiple strikes and cupping do not necessarily translate into a die
        cap. The definition of a die cap is quite precise. This does not
        detract from the interest and value of this coin. But you would have
        to call it what it is -- a deeply cupped, multi-stuck, brockaged cent.

        If you loosen up the definition for a cap, then you get the situation
        we see today in slabbed and raw coins. All sorts of coins are being
        called die caps which aren't, from simple cupped broadstrikes, to
        uniface broadstrikes, to broadstrikes with full, centered, first-
        strike brockages, etc.
      • byersnc
        Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10 rings around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!! Plus everyone you mentioned in
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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          Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10 rings
          around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!! Plus
          everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a die
          cap.

          Mike Byers
          http://mikebyers.com









          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
          <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
          >
          > Whose "definition" are you using?
          >
          > In numerous pictures of caps in the 1970's and 1980's error sales
          > publications these single coin multistrikes are most always called
          > diecaps.
          >
          > Devine, Weinberg, Roosmalen, Steiner, Ziempher, Fivaz, Stanton,
          > Schemmer, Halpern, Margolis, ANA, ANACS, NCG, PCGS... have all
          taken
          > called these grey~area items "diecaps" in their printed photos,
          sales
          > catalogues, websites, slab descriptions...
          >
          > Indeed, you may be right strictly using this stated definition.
          Single
          > coin multistike coins with brockage or uniface 2rd sides may not be
          > diecap by this definition. But,
          >
          > For me, I disagree on this piece and on the 1856 lg Cent, and on
          1888
          > Morgan, ect whose 4 year old photos were mentioned earlier.
          >
          > The 1856 Lg Cent die cap is a diecap in my eyes, and also for all
          the
          > important encapsulators these days from what I see on ebay. I think
          > the 1856 1c is currently in a "diecap" slab. I recognize it from
          when
          > Mike Farrone owned in in 1981ish. He was a local error specialist
          with
          > amazing 1800's "diecaps". If I remember right he had the 1856 in a
          > customized 8x10 capitol plastics "diecap" gold embossed holder of
          his
          > making, way back before "slabs". Back then Farrone had more than a
          > dozen type coin caps. Many of his pieces displayed this "single"
          coin
          > possibility die cap. He'd bring them to coin club show & tell.
          Quite
          > impressive "diecaps".
          >
          > Lindy
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
          Diamond"
          > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
          > >
          > > --- In
          errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
          > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I agree it's a nested pair bottom coin. Where I disagree is
          that its
          > > > not a "diecap" just because it was multistruck into just one
          coin.
          > >
          > > But then you'd need to re-define what a die cap is. By
          definition, a
          > > die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER
          planchet
          > > AFTER the initial strike. It is a coin that must function AS
          the die
          > > face in striking fresh coins. By definition, it is NOT
          sufficient
          > > simply to be multi-struck against the same coin or planchet that
          was
          > > involved in the initial strike.
          > >
          > > If
          > > > you had both pieces to this set: "obv die cap" & this "rev die
          cap"
          > > > and together it appeared they received 3+ strikes together,
          how
          > > would
          > > > you describe the two? I'm guessing not a die cap set, right?
          > >
          > > The top coin was certainly an obverse die cap or at least
          started as
          > > an obverse die cap (it may have secondarily adhered to the
          bottom
          > > coin). It is not the case, however, that the bottom coin is a
          > > reverse die cap. It is a coin with a full, centered brockage
          that
          > > temporarily wrapped around the obverse cap. The bottom coin
          never
          > > contacted another coin or planchet.
          > > >
          > > > In the old days, turn of the century before last, you'd get the
          > > > classic thimbal shape diecaps. These days you get coins struck
          > > > together numerous times, obliterating previous die details and
          > > > displaying saucer shape, grossly expanded diameters.
          > >
          > > Multiple strikes and cupping do not necessarily translate into a
          die
          > > cap. The definition of a die cap is quite precise. This does
          not
          > > detract from the interest and value of this coin. But you would
          have
          > > to call it what it is -- a deeply cupped, multi-stuck, brockaged
          cent.
          > >
          > > If you loosen up the definition for a cap, then you get the
          situation
          > > we see today in slabbed and raw coins. All sorts of coins are
          being
          > > called die caps which aren't, from simple cupped broadstrikes,
          to
          > > uniface broadstrikes, to broadstrikes with full, centered, first-
          > > strike brockages, etc.
        • byersnc
          Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here s the 2c obv die cap from his collection: http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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            Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here's the 2c obv die cap from his
            collection:

            http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
            http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapsm.jpg




            Mike Byers
            http://mikebyers.com








            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10 rings
            > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!! Plus
            > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a die
            > cap.
            >
            > Mike Byers
            > http://mikebyers.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
            > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Whose "definition" are you using?
            > >
            > > In numerous pictures of caps in the 1970's and 1980's error sales
            > > publications these single coin multistrikes are most always
            called
            > > diecaps.
            > >
            > > Devine, Weinberg, Roosmalen, Steiner, Ziempher, Fivaz, Stanton,
            > > Schemmer, Halpern, Margolis, ANA, ANACS, NCG, PCGS... have all
            > taken
            > > called these grey~area items "diecaps" in their printed photos,
            > sales
            > > catalogues, websites, slab descriptions...
            > >
            > > Indeed, you may be right strictly using this stated definition.
            > Single
            > > coin multistike coins with brockage or uniface 2rd sides may not
            be
            > > diecap by this definition. But,
            > >
            > > For me, I disagree on this piece and on the 1856 lg Cent, and
            on
            > 1888
            > > Morgan, ect whose 4 year old photos were mentioned earlier.
            > >
            > > The 1856 Lg Cent die cap is a diecap in my eyes, and also for
            all
            > the
            > > important encapsulators these days from what I see on ebay. I
            think
            > > the 1856 1c is currently in a "diecap" slab. I recognize it from
            > when
            > > Mike Farrone owned in in 1981ish. He was a local error
            specialist
            > with
            > > amazing 1800's "diecaps". If I remember right he had the 1856 in
            a
            > > customized 8x10 capitol plastics "diecap" gold embossed holder
            of
            > his
            > > making, way back before "slabs". Back then Farrone had more than
            a
            > > dozen type coin caps. Many of his pieces displayed this "single"
            > coin
            > > possibility die cap. He'd bring them to coin club show & tell.
            > Quite
            > > impressive "diecaps".
            > >
            > > Lindy
            > >
            > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
            > Diamond"
            > > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > --- In
            > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
            > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > I agree it's a nested pair bottom coin. Where I disagree is
            > that its
            > > > > not a "diecap" just because it was multistruck into just one
            > coin.
            > > >
            > > > But then you'd need to re-define what a die cap is. By
            > definition, a
            > > > die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER
            > planchet
            > > > AFTER the initial strike. It is a coin that must function AS
            > the die
            > > > face in striking fresh coins. By definition, it is NOT
            > sufficient
            > > > simply to be multi-struck against the same coin or planchet
            that
            > was
            > > > involved in the initial strike.
            > > >
            > > > If
            > > > > you had both pieces to this set: "obv die cap" & this "rev
            die
            > cap"
            > > > > and together it appeared they received 3+ strikes together,
            > how
            > > > would
            > > > > you describe the two? I'm guessing not a die cap set, right?
            > > >
            > > > The top coin was certainly an obverse die cap or at least
            > started as
            > > > an obverse die cap (it may have secondarily adhered to the
            > bottom
            > > > coin). It is not the case, however, that the bottom coin is a
            > > > reverse die cap. It is a coin with a full, centered brockage
            > that
            > > > temporarily wrapped around the obverse cap. The bottom coin
            > never
            > > > contacted another coin or planchet.
            > > > >
            > > > > In the old days, turn of the century before last, you'd get
            the
            > > > > classic thimbal shape diecaps. These days you get coins
            struck
            > > > > together numerous times, obliterating previous die details
            and
            > > > > displaying saucer shape, grossly expanded diameters.
            > > >
            > > > Multiple strikes and cupping do not necessarily translate into
            a
            > die
            > > > cap. The definition of a die cap is quite precise. This does
            > not
            > > > detract from the interest and value of this coin. But you
            would
            > have
            > > > to call it what it is -- a deeply cupped, multi-stuck,
            brockaged
            > cent.
            > > >
            > > > If you loosen up the definition for a cap, then you get the
            > situation
            > > > we see today in slabbed and raw coins. All sorts of coins are
            > being
            > > > called die caps which aren't, from simple cupped broadstrikes,
            > to
            > > > uniface broadstrikes, to broadstrikes with full, centered,
            first-
            > > > strike brockages, etc.
          • Mike Diamond
            Lindy, people can label coins any way they want to. They can choose to ignore established definitions. They ve been doing so as long as coins have been for
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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              Lindy, people can label coins any way they want to. They can choose
              to ignore established definitions. They've been doing so as long as
              coins have been for sale. If you label a coin "die cap" you attract
              more interest (and more money) than if you label it something else.

              If you look in any standard reference, you'll find die caps defined
              as I have defined them. It is a coin that sticks to the die and acts
              as the die face, striking one or more succeeding planchet. Anything
              else is not a die cap.

              If you monkey with the definition, then you leave the door open to
              all sorts of coins being labeled die caps. You yourself have seen
              cupped broadstrikes -- die struck on both faces -- labeled as die
              caps by major grading services. This abuse of the term does the
              hobby no good.

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
              <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
              >
              > Whose "definition" are you using?
              >
              > In numerous pictures of caps in the 1970's and 1980's error sales
              > publications these single coin multistrikes are most always called
              > diecaps.
              >
              > Devine, Weinberg, Roosmalen, Steiner, Ziempher, Fivaz, Stanton,
              > Schemmer, Halpern, Margolis, ANA, ANACS, NCG, PCGS... have all taken
              > called these grey~area items "diecaps" in their printed photos,
              sales
              > catalogues, websites, slab descriptions...
              >
              > Indeed, you may be right strictly using this stated definition.
              Single
              > coin multistike coins with brockage or uniface 2rd sides may not be
              > diecap by this definition. But,
              >
              > For me, I disagree on this piece and on the 1856 lg Cent, and on
              1888
              > Morgan, ect whose 4 year old photos were mentioned earlier.
              >
              > The 1856 Lg Cent die cap is a diecap in my eyes, and also for all
              the
              > important encapsulators these days from what I see on ebay. I think
              > the 1856 1c is currently in a "diecap" slab. I recognize it from
              when
              > Mike Farrone owned in in 1981ish. He was a local error specialist
              with
              > amazing 1800's "diecaps". If I remember right he had the 1856 in a
              > customized 8x10 capitol plastics "diecap" gold embossed holder of
              his
              > making, way back before "slabs". Back then Farrone had more than a
              > dozen type coin caps. Many of his pieces displayed this "single"
              coin
              > possibility die cap. He'd bring them to coin club show & tell. Quite
              > impressive "diecaps".
              >
              > Lindy
            • Mike Diamond
              I see no rings in the photo, but I ll have to take your word for it. The presence of 10 strike rings is inconsistent with presence of a crisp brockage on the
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                I see no rings in the photo, but I'll have to take your word for it.
                The presence of 10 strike rings is inconsistent with presence of a
                crisp brockage on the reverse that shows uniform expansion from edge
                to center. I see no evidence that this coin produced a single
                counterbrockage, which is what a die cap of this nature must do.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10 rings
                > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!! Plus
                > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a die
                > cap.
                >
                > Mike Byers
                > http://mikebyers.com
              • byersnc
                It s hard to show the inner walls of the obv die cap in scans. But I will have my webmaster try and take a shot showing the rings. Mike Byers
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                  It's hard to show the inner walls of the obv die cap in scans. But I
                  will have my webmaster try and take a shot showing the rings.


                  Mike Byers
                  http://mikebyers.com












                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                  <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I see no rings in the photo, but I'll have to take your word for
                  it.
                  > The presence of 10 strike rings is inconsistent with presence of a
                  > crisp brockage on the reverse that shows uniform expansion from
                  edge
                  > to center. I see no evidence that this coin produced a single
                  > counterbrockage, which is what a die cap of this nature must do.
                  >
                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                  > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10
                  rings
                  > > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!! Plus
                  > > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a
                  die
                  > > cap.
                  > >
                  > > Mike Byers
                  > > http://mikebyers.com
                • Mike Diamond
                  Same problem as before. I can t rule out a die cap, but I see no conclusive evidence that this coin received more than one strike. Cupping is not reliable
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                    Same problem as before. I can't rule out a die cap, but I see no
                    conclusive evidence that this coin received more than one strike.
                    Cupping is not reliable criterion. The brockage is crisp and appears
                    uniformly expanded from edge to center.

                    I have several deeply cupped broadstrikes with crisp, full brockages
                    on the reverse. I wouldn't call any of them a die cap, for the six
                    reasons I laid out in a previous e-mail. I really don't care what
                    the market demands or expects. I'm not in the business of selling
                    coins. My only concern is accuracy.

                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                    <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here's the 2c obv die cap from his
                    > collection:
                    >
                    > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
                    > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapsm.jpg
                    >
                    > Mike Byers
                    > http://mikebyers.com
                  • Mike Diamond
                    Thanks. I would think that 10 strikes would have absolutely obliterated the central portion of the brockage. Considering the amount of lateral (as well as
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                      Thanks. I would think that 10 strikes would have absolutely
                      obliterated the central portion of the brockage. Considering the
                      amount of lateral (as well as upward) expansion of the coin, both top
                      and bottom coins would have been struck out-of-collar. That
                      situation greatly accelerates the expansion and obliteration of any
                      brockage image on the reverse of a coin.

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > It's hard to show the inner walls of the obv die cap in scans. But
                      I
                      > will have my webmaster try and take a shot showing the rings.
                      >
                      >
                      > Mike Byers
                      > http://mikebyers.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                      > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I see no rings in the photo, but I'll have to take your word for
                      > it.
                      > > The presence of 10 strike rings is inconsistent with presence of
                      a
                      > > crisp brockage on the reverse that shows uniform expansion from
                      > edge
                      > > to center. I see no evidence that this coin produced a single
                      > > counterbrockage, which is what a die cap of this nature must do.
                      > >
                      > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                      > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10
                      > rings
                      > > > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!!
                      Plus
                      > > > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a
                      > die
                      > > > cap.
                      > > >
                      > > > Mike Byers
                      > > > http://mikebyers.com
                    • Mike Diamond
                      ... that ... That s certainly possible. You can only go so far with a picture, even a good one. ... To an extent. But other factors must be weighed as well.
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                        <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I know if you saw all the previous die details from prior strikes
                        that
                        > would help.

                        That's certainly possible. You can only go so far with a picture,
                        even a good one.
                        >
                        > But as I've stated before "size matters".

                        To an extent. But other factors must be weighed as well.

                        I cannot eloquently argue my
                        > point as you can. For me, grossly larger saucer size is evidence of
                        > multistrikes.

                        I mostly work with recent coins, and for these I have long ago
                        concluded that size is largely irrelevant. I've seen half-dollar
                        size cents for which I could find evidence of only a single strike.
                        I have seen multi-struck cents that show very little expansion, even
                        when struck out of collar. You've got to consider the totality of
                        the evidence. I'm not even entirely convinced of the reliability
                        of "strike lines". I have a minor off-center quarter that shows
                        three or four sets of what appear to be strike lines, but I am sure
                        that the quarter was struck only once. I have no idea why these
                        lines formed.

                        In fact it's usually the only evidence remaining since
                        > the die strike details can be completely obliterated.

                        I will agree with you on that point.
                        >
                        >
                        > For me the 1856 1c Farone Cap may have rode on top of just one 1856
                        > coin for 10 strikes. Thats cool. I'd accept that and still call it a
                        > die cap. Heck, even if it showed no "10 tiered" steps I'd still like
                        > it as a "diecap" as pictured.

                        You are correct that a brockage image will maintain its integrity
                        longer as part of a "nested pair" than if it was striking a fresh
                        planchet each time. But still, ten strikes is a lot.

                        It is good to be able to disagree in an atmosphere of friendliness
                        and mutual respect. That's what this hobby is all about.
                      • Mike Diamond
                        By the same token, there have been times when I ve had to issue a course correction. I had to sink the idea of wraparound strikes (lateral indents) when it
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
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                          By the same token, there have been times when I've had to issue a
                          course correction. I had to sink the idea of "wraparound strikes"
                          (lateral indents) when it became clear that I was dealing with
                          concave chain strikes. (You will often see these described and
                          slabbed as "off-center with clip" errors.)

                          In my recent article on misaligned anvil dies, I concluded that the
                          Virginia quarters with misaligned anvil dies came after the off-
                          center quarters and those with the misaligned hammer die. That
                          conclusion was based on the apparent absence of obverse (anvil)
                          collar clash in the latter two groups. I was wrong about that. I
                          subsequently undertook a study of die stages based on the appearance
                          of die scratches and other blemishes (soon to be published on the
                          CONECA website), and I found that the mad anvil cohort are sprinkled
                          throughout six die stages, and that they bracket the off-center and
                          mad hammer cohorts. One can be misled by evidence that seems to be
                          convincing at the time. That occurs in every field of inquiry.

                          Like you, I also believed for a long time that deeply cupped cents
                          with a full brockage reverse were legitimate die caps. The
                          appearance fooled me because, like you, I placed a lot of faith in
                          features like wall height and verticality. Subsequent consideration
                          of all available evidence (summed up in the six points I laid out in
                          an earlier debate) led me to reject that long-held assumption. One
                          must always be ready to question the status quo.

                          You keep holding my feet to the fire, Lindy. Same goes for everybody
                          and anybody on ECIE. I encourage dissent and debate. Sometimes I
                          miss the contributions of my friend Terry (pwrwgndrvr) who was one of
                          the best devil's advocates I've ever encountered.

                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                          <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Of course, respectfully disagreeing is all good and the best
                          option.
                          >
                          > Somewhere, sometime ago I read "people won't remember what you said
                          > just how it made them feel".
                          >
                          > Anyways, I'm still quite happy that you convinced me the 1966 25c I
                          > have has an obv brockage by elliptical clip 25c coin that remained
                          > exactly where it was struck. Pretty neat indeed, you created an
                          error
                          > hole, then filled it right in. I thought for sure it was struck
                          > through an off center 25c that remained where it was struck. I was
                          > wrong. Didn't ever consider the collar's direct relationship to the
                          > 1966 rev 25c die.
                          >
                          > Lindy
                        • byersnc
                          Lindy- I ended up with 6 of the 9 early type obv die caps that Mike Faraone had. One of the 3 that I didn t end up with was his Buffalo Nickel obv die cap. It
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Lindy- I ended up with 6 of the 9 early type obv die caps that Mike
                            Faraone had. One of the 3 that I didn't end up with was his Buffalo
                            Nickel obv die cap. It is owned by Bob Entlich, a Stack's employee.
                            In 2004 I offered him $30,000 (thirty thousand) and he passed. He
                            said he was offered that 2 other times and that it was not for sale.


                            Mike Byers
                            http://mikebyers.com







                            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                            <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Exactly. He had put them in custom capital plastics holders just
                            like
                            > your 2c piece. With his name on each and ana id #. It was an
                            > incredible set of diecaps to behold.
                            >
                            > Lindy
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                            > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here's the 2c obv die cap from
                            his
                            > > collection:
                            > >
                            > > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
                            > > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapsm.jpg
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Mike Byers
                            > > http://mikebyers.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                            > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10
                            rings
                            > > > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!!
                            Plus
                            > > > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's a
                            die
                            > > > cap.
                            > > >
                            > > > Mike Byers
                            > > > http://mikebyers.com
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In
                            errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                            > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Whose "definition" are you using?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > In numerous pictures of caps in the 1970's and 1980's error
                            sales
                            > > > > publications these single coin multistrikes are most always
                            > > called
                            > > > > diecaps.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Devine, Weinberg, Roosmalen, Steiner, Ziempher, Fivaz,
                            Stanton,
                            > > > > Schemmer, Halpern, Margolis, ANA, ANACS, NCG, PCGS... have
                            all
                            > > > taken
                            > > > > called these grey~area items "diecaps" in their printed
                            photos,
                            > > > sales
                            > > > > catalogues, websites, slab descriptions...
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Indeed, you may be right strictly using this stated
                            definition.
                            > > > Single
                            > > > > coin multistike coins with brockage or uniface 2rd sides may
                            not
                            > > be
                            > > > > diecap by this definition. But,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > For me, I disagree on this piece and on the 1856 lg Cent,
                            and
                            > > on
                            > > > 1888
                            > > > > Morgan, ect whose 4 year old photos were mentioned earlier.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The 1856 Lg Cent die cap is a diecap in my eyes, and also
                            for
                            > > all
                            > > > the
                            > > > > important encapsulators these days from what I see on ebay.
                            I
                            > > think
                            > > > > the 1856 1c is currently in a "diecap" slab. I recognize it
                            from
                            > > > when
                            > > > > Mike Farrone owned in in 1981ish. He was a local error
                            > > specialist
                            > > > with
                            > > > > amazing 1800's "diecaps". If I remember right he had the
                            1856 in
                            > > a
                            > > > > customized 8x10 capitol plastics "diecap" gold embossed
                            holder
                            > > of
                            > > > his
                            > > > > making, way back before "slabs". Back then Farrone had more
                            than
                            > > a
                            > > > > dozen type coin caps. Many of his pieces displayed
                            this "single"
                            > > > coin
                            > > > > possibility die cap. He'd bring them to coin club show &
                            tell.
                            > > > Quite
                            > > > > impressive "diecaps".
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Lindy
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                            > > > Diamond"
                            > > > > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In
                            > > > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                            > > > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > I agree it's a nested pair bottom coin. Where I disagree
                            is
                            > > > that its
                            > > > > > > not a "diecap" just because it was multistruck into just
                            one
                            > > > coin.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > But then you'd need to re-define what a die cap is. By
                            > > > definition, a
                            > > > > > die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER
                            > > > planchet
                            > > > > > AFTER the initial strike. It is a coin that must function
                            AS
                            > > > the die
                            > > > > > face in striking fresh coins. By definition, it is NOT
                            > > > sufficient
                            > > > > > simply to be multi-struck against the same coin or
                            planchet
                            > > that
                            > > > was
                            > > > > > involved in the initial strike.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > If
                            > > > > > > you had both pieces to this set: "obv die cap" &
                            this "rev
                            > > die
                            > > > cap"
                            > > > > > > and together it appeared they received 3+ strikes
                            together,
                            > > > how
                            > > > > > would
                            > > > > > > you describe the two? I'm guessing not a die cap set,
                            right?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > The top coin was certainly an obverse die cap or at least
                            > > > started as
                            > > > > > an obverse die cap (it may have secondarily adhered to the
                            > > > bottom
                            > > > > > coin). It is not the case, however, that the bottom coin
                            is a
                            > > > > > reverse die cap. It is a coin with a full, centered
                            brockage
                            > > > that
                            > > > > > temporarily wrapped around the obverse cap. The bottom
                            coin
                            > > > never
                            > > > > > contacted another coin or planchet.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > In the old days, turn of the century before last, you'd
                            get
                            > > the
                            > > > > > > classic thimbal shape diecaps. These days you get coins
                            > > struck
                            > > > > > > together numerous times, obliterating previous die
                            details
                            > > and
                            > > > > > > displaying saucer shape, grossly expanded diameters.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Multiple strikes and cupping do not necessarily translate
                            into
                            > > a
                            > > > die
                            > > > > > cap. The definition of a die cap is quite precise. This
                            does
                            > > > not
                            > > > > > detract from the interest and value of this coin. But you
                            > > would
                            > > > have
                            > > > > > to call it what it is -- a deeply cupped, multi-stuck,
                            > > brockaged
                            > > > cent.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > If you loosen up the definition for a cap, then you get
                            the
                            > > > situation
                            > > > > > we see today in slabbed and raw coins. All sorts of coins
                            are
                            > > > being
                            > > > > > called die caps which aren't, from simple cupped
                            broadstrikes,
                            > > > to
                            > > > > > uniface broadstrikes, to broadstrikes with full, centered,
                            > > first-
                            > > > > > strike brockages, etc.
                          • fred_weinberg
                            I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info....... Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 3, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info.......

                              Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel
                              Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt Collection.
                              That collection had over 2,000 MAJOR error type
                              coins, starting in 1794, and nothing was past 1955 !!

                              The Buffalo Rev. Cap was, and is Unique..............

                              The Jerri Bobbie Morgan Cap was Ex-Roy Gray - he
                              had it at the very first EAR in 1967 at the Hollywood-
                              Roosevelt Hotel. It was priced at $1,000 at the time
                              (pretty sure I remember the price), and on the last
                              day of the show (Sunday), my mother came by, and
                              as I introduced her to all of my error buddies
                              (Mort Goodman, Arnie Margolis, Syd Kass, plus all
                              the dealers) she saw the Morgan piece in Roys showcase,
                              and said quote "Your Father would Love that for an
                              Ashtray!!"

                              I will never forget the look on Roy's face!!!

                              Oh, well, another new year, and more old memories..........

                              See you guys tomorrow morning........it's been fun reading
                              the posts today.....
                              Fred



                              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                              <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Lindy- I ended up with 6 of the 9 early type obv die caps that
                              Mike
                              > Faraone had. One of the 3 that I didn't end up with was his
                              Buffalo
                              > Nickel obv die cap. It is owned by Bob Entlich, a Stack's
                              employee.
                              > In 2004 I offered him $30,000 (thirty thousand) and he passed. He
                              > said he was offered that 2 other times and that it was not for
                              sale.
                              >
                              >
                              > Mike Byers
                              > http://mikebyers.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                              > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Exactly. He had put them in custom capital plastics holders just
                              > like
                              > > your 2c piece. With his name on each and ana id #. It was an
                              > > incredible set of diecaps to behold.
                              > >
                              > > Lindy
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                              > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Lindy-speaking of Mike Faraone- here's the 2c obv die cap from
                              > his
                              > > > collection:
                              > > >
                              > > > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapslab.jpg
                              > > > http://minterrornews.com/18652ccapsm.jpg
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Mike Byers
                              > > > http://mikebyers.com
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                              > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Lindy-the 1856 Lg Cent Obv Die Cap is 1/2 inch high with 10
                              > rings
                              > > > > around the inside of the cap showing each of the strikes!!
                              > Plus
                              > > > > everyone you mentioned in your post would obviously say it's
                              a
                              > die
                              > > > > cap.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Mike Byers
                              > > > > http://mikebyers.com
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In
                              > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                              > > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Whose "definition" are you using?
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > In numerous pictures of caps in the 1970's and 1980's
                              error
                              > sales
                              > > > > > publications these single coin multistrikes are most
                              always
                              > > > called
                              > > > > > diecaps.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Devine, Weinberg, Roosmalen, Steiner, Ziempher, Fivaz,
                              > Stanton,
                              > > > > > Schemmer, Halpern, Margolis, ANA, ANACS, NCG, PCGS... have
                              > all
                              > > > > taken
                              > > > > > called these grey~area items "diecaps" in their printed
                              > photos,
                              > > > > sales
                              > > > > > catalogues, websites, slab descriptions...
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Indeed, you may be right strictly using this stated
                              > definition.
                              > > > > Single
                              > > > > > coin multistike coins with brockage or uniface 2rd sides
                              may
                              > not
                              > > > be
                              > > > > > diecap by this definition. But,
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > For me, I disagree on this piece and on the 1856 lg Cent,
                              > and
                              > > > on
                              > > > > 1888
                              > > > > > Morgan, ect whose 4 year old photos were mentioned
                              earlier.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > The 1856 Lg Cent die cap is a diecap in my eyes, and also
                              > for
                              > > > all
                              > > > > the
                              > > > > > important encapsulators these days from what I see on
                              ebay.
                              > I
                              > > > think
                              > > > > > the 1856 1c is currently in a "diecap" slab. I recognize
                              it
                              > from
                              > > > > when
                              > > > > > Mike Farrone owned in in 1981ish. He was a local error
                              > > > specialist
                              > > > > with
                              > > > > > amazing 1800's "diecaps". If I remember right he had the
                              > 1856 in
                              > > > a
                              > > > > > customized 8x10 capitol plastics "diecap" gold embossed
                              > holder
                              > > > of
                              > > > > his
                              > > > > > making, way back before "slabs". Back then Farrone had
                              more
                              > than
                              > > > a
                              > > > > > dozen type coin caps. Many of his pieces displayed
                              > this "single"
                              > > > > coin
                              > > > > > possibility die cap. He'd bring them to coin club show &
                              > tell.
                              > > > > Quite
                              > > > > > impressive "diecaps".
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Lindy
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In
                              errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                              > > > > Diamond"
                              > > > > > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > --- In
                              > > > > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                              > > > > > > <adkinstone@a...> wrote:
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > I agree it's a nested pair bottom coin. Where I
                              disagree
                              > is
                              > > > > that its
                              > > > > > > > not a "diecap" just because it was multistruck into
                              just
                              > one
                              > > > > coin.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > But then you'd need to re-define what a die cap is. By
                              > > > > definition, a
                              > > > > > > die cap is a coin that is struck into at least one OTHER
                              > > > > planchet
                              > > > > > > AFTER the initial strike. It is a coin that must
                              function
                              > AS
                              > > > > the die
                              > > > > > > face in striking fresh coins. By definition, it is NOT
                              > > > > sufficient
                              > > > > > > simply to be multi-struck against the same coin or
                              > planchet
                              > > > that
                              > > > > was
                              > > > > > > involved in the initial strike.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > If
                              > > > > > > > you had both pieces to this set: "obv die cap" &
                              > this "rev
                              > > > die
                              > > > > cap"
                              > > > > > > > and together it appeared they received 3+ strikes
                              > together,
                              > > > > how
                              > > > > > > would
                              > > > > > > > you describe the two? I'm guessing not a die cap set,
                              > right?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > The top coin was certainly an obverse die cap or at
                              least
                              > > > > started as
                              > > > > > > an obverse die cap (it may have secondarily adhered to
                              the
                              > > > > bottom
                              > > > > > > coin). It is not the case, however, that the bottom
                              coin
                              > is a
                              > > > > > > reverse die cap. It is a coin with a full, centered
                              > brockage
                              > > > > that
                              > > > > > > temporarily wrapped around the obverse cap. The bottom
                              > coin
                              > > > > never
                              > > > > > > contacted another coin or planchet.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > In the old days, turn of the century before last,
                              you'd
                              > get
                              > > > the
                              > > > > > > > classic thimbal shape diecaps. These days you get
                              coins
                              > > > struck
                              > > > > > > > together numerous times, obliterating previous die
                              > details
                              > > > and
                              > > > > > > > displaying saucer shape, grossly expanded diameters.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Multiple strikes and cupping do not necessarily
                              translate
                              > into
                              > > > a
                              > > > > die
                              > > > > > > cap. The definition of a die cap is quite precise.
                              This
                              > does
                              > > > > not
                              > > > > > > detract from the interest and value of this coin. But
                              you
                              > > > would
                              > > > > have
                              > > > > > > to call it what it is -- a deeply cupped, multi-stuck,
                              > > > brockaged
                              > > > > cent.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > If you loosen up the definition for a cap, then you get
                              > the
                              > > > > situation
                              > > > > > > we see today in slabbed and raw coins. All sorts of
                              coins
                              > are
                              > > > > being
                              > > > > > > called die caps which aren't, from simple cupped
                              > broadstrikes,
                              > > > > to
                              > > > > > > uniface broadstrikes, to broadstrikes with full,
                              centered,
                              > > > first-
                              > > > > > > strike brockages, etc.
                            • Mike Diamond
                              We always enjoy your trips down memory lane, Fred. Since buffalo nickels were struck with the reverse die acting as the hammer die, a buffalo nickel reverse
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                We always enjoy your trips down memory lane, Fred.

                                Since buffalo nickels were struck with the reverse die acting as the
                                hammer die, a buffalo nickel reverse die cap would be equivalent to
                                an obverse die cap for most other denominations.

                                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                                <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info.......
                                >
                                > Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel
                                > Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt Collection.
                                > That collection had over 2,000 MAJOR error type
                                > coins, starting in 1794, and nothing was past 1955 !!
                                >
                                > The Buffalo Rev. Cap was, and is Unique..............
                                >
                                > The Jerri Bobbie Morgan Cap was Ex-Roy Gray - he
                                > had it at the very first EAR in 1967 at the Hollywood-
                                > Roosevelt Hotel. It was priced at $1,000 at the time
                                > (pretty sure I remember the price), and on the last
                                > day of the show (Sunday), my mother came by, and
                                > as I introduced her to all of my error buddies
                                > (Mort Goodman, Arnie Margolis, Syd Kass, plus all
                                > the dealers) she saw the Morgan piece in Roys showcase,
                                > and said quote "Your Father would Love that for an
                                > Ashtray!!"
                                >
                                > I will never forget the look on Roy's face!!!
                                >
                                > Oh, well, another new year, and more old memories..........
                                >
                                > See you guys tomorrow morning........it's been fun reading
                                > the posts today.....
                                > Fred
                              • fred_weinberg
                                Yes, when I said Buffalo Nickel Reverse Cap Die, I meant the reverse design, not the reverse die. Should I have said Reverse Buffalo Nickel Cap Die? Most
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Yes, when I said Buffalo Nickel Reverse Cap Die,
                                  I meant the reverse design, not the reverse die.
                                  Should I have said Reverse Buffalo Nickel Cap Die?

                                  Most Buffalo Nickels, Mercury Dimes, most Standing Liberty
                                  Quarters, and Peace dollars have the reverse die as
                                  the Anvil (top) die.


                                  Fred



                                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                  <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > We always enjoy your trips down memory lane, Fred.
                                  >
                                  > Since buffalo nickels were struck with the reverse die acting as
                                  the
                                  > hammer die, a buffalo nickel reverse die cap would be equivalent
                                  to
                                  > an obverse die cap for most other denominations.
                                  >
                                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                                  > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info.......
                                  > >
                                  > > Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel
                                  > > Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt Collection.
                                  > > That collection had over 2,000 MAJOR error type
                                  > > coins, starting in 1794, and nothing was past 1955 !!
                                  > >
                                  > > The Buffalo Rev. Cap was, and is Unique..............
                                  > >
                                  > > The Jerri Bobbie Morgan Cap was Ex-Roy Gray - he
                                  > > had it at the very first EAR in 1967 at the Hollywood-
                                  > > Roosevelt Hotel. It was priced at $1,000 at the time
                                  > > (pretty sure I remember the price), and on the last
                                  > > day of the show (Sunday), my mother came by, and
                                  > > as I introduced her to all of my error buddies
                                  > > (Mort Goodman, Arnie Margolis, Syd Kass, plus all
                                  > > the dealers) she saw the Morgan piece in Roys showcase,
                                  > > and said quote "Your Father would Love that for an
                                  > > Ashtray!!"
                                  > >
                                  > > I will never forget the look on Roy's face!!!
                                  > >
                                  > > Oh, well, another new year, and more old memories..........
                                  > >
                                  > > See you guys tomorrow morning........it's been fun reading
                                  > > the posts today.....
                                  > > Fred
                                • byersnc
                                  Fred- that s why I called it an obverse die cap- it s an obverse die cap of the REVERSE DESIGN, since the reverse die was most likely the anvil die... Speaking
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Fred- that's why I called it an obverse die cap- it's an obverse die
                                    cap of the REVERSE DESIGN, since the reverse die was most likely the
                                    anvil die...


                                    Speaking of Mercury Dimes using the reverse die as the anvil die-
                                    check out this unique Mercury Dime obverse die cap of the reverse
                                    design:

                                    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2203151882


                                    Mike Byers
                                    http://mikebyers.com

                                    -----------------------------------------------




                                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                                    <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Yes, when I said Buffalo Nickel Reverse Cap Die,
                                    > I meant the reverse design, not the reverse die.
                                    > Should I have said Reverse Buffalo Nickel Cap Die?
                                    >
                                    > Most Buffalo Nickels, Mercury Dimes, most Standing Liberty
                                    > Quarters, and Peace dollars have the reverse die as
                                    > the Anvil (top) die.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Fred
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                                    Diamond"
                                    > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > We always enjoy your trips down memory lane, Fred.
                                    > >
                                    > > Since buffalo nickels were struck with the reverse die acting as
                                    > the
                                    > > hammer die, a buffalo nickel reverse die cap would be equivalent
                                    > to
                                    > > an obverse die cap for most other denominations.
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
                                    fred_weinberg
                                    > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I gotta chime in at this point, just for pedigree info.......
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Both the 1856 Large Cent and the Buffalo Nickel
                                    > > > Reverse Die Cap are from the 1974 Bolt Collection.
                                    > > > That collection had over 2,000 MAJOR error type
                                    > > > coins, starting in 1794, and nothing was past 1955 !!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The Buffalo Rev. Cap was, and is Unique..............
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The Jerri Bobbie Morgan Cap was Ex-Roy Gray - he
                                    > > > had it at the very first EAR in 1967 at the Hollywood-
                                    > > > Roosevelt Hotel. It was priced at $1,000 at the time
                                    > > > (pretty sure I remember the price), and on the last
                                    > > > day of the show (Sunday), my mother came by, and
                                    > > > as I introduced her to all of my error buddies
                                    > > > (Mort Goodman, Arnie Margolis, Syd Kass, plus all
                                    > > > the dealers) she saw the Morgan piece in Roys showcase,
                                    > > > and said quote "Your Father would Love that for an
                                    > > > Ashtray!!"
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I will never forget the look on Roy's face!!!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Oh, well, another new year, and more old memories..........
                                    > > >
                                    > > > See you guys tomorrow morning........it's been fun reading
                                    > > > the posts today.....
                                    > > > Fred
                                  • Mike Diamond
                                    Oh, I wasn t questioning your description. I was just letting folks who were unfamiliar with the die set-up for buffalo nickels know that a reverse die cap in
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
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                                      Oh, I wasn't questioning your description. I was just letting folks
                                      who were unfamiliar with the die set-up for buffalo nickels know that
                                      a reverse die cap in a buffalo nickel is functionally equivalent to
                                      an obverse die cap in, say, a Jefferson nickel.

                                      You can call it a reverse die cap or, perhaps less confusingly, a
                                      hammer die cap.

                                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
                                      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Yes, when I said Buffalo Nickel Reverse Cap Die,
                                      > I meant the reverse design, not the reverse die.
                                      > Should I have said Reverse Buffalo Nickel Cap Die?
                                      >
                                      > Most Buffalo Nickels, Mercury Dimes, most Standing Liberty
                                      > Quarters, and Peace dollars have the reverse die as
                                      > the Anvil (top) die.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Fred
                                    • Mike Diamond
                                      No, it s a hammer die cap, not an obverse die cap. An obverse die cap in a buffalo nickel would be functionally equivalent to a reverse die cap in most other
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jan 4, 2005
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                                        No, it's a hammer die cap, not an obverse die cap. An obverse die
                                        cap in a buffalo nickel would be functionally equivalent to a reverse
                                        die cap in most other denominations.

                                        Like I say, when you're dealing with Mercury dimes and buffalo
                                        nickels, it probably causes less confusion if you talk about hammer
                                        die caps and anvil die caps.

                                        Your Mercury dime "hammer die cap" with full, centered brockage of
                                        the reverse design on the obverse face faces the same problem as the
                                        1886 Morgan dollar and 1856 large cent. The brockage is full, crisp,
                                        and appears to be a first-strike brockage. The sharp brockage shows
                                        uniform expansion and clarity from edge to center, indicating it did
                                        not strike another planchet after initial formation and thus fails to
                                        qualify as a die cap.

                                        But no matter what you call it, it's still unique.

                                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                                        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Fred- that's why I called it an obverse die cap- it's an obverse
                                        die
                                        > cap of the REVERSE DESIGN, since the reverse die was most likely
                                        the
                                        > anvil die...
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Speaking of Mercury Dimes using the reverse die as the anvil die-
                                        > check out this unique Mercury Dime obverse die cap of the reverse
                                        > design:
                                        >
                                        > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2203151882
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Mike Byers
                                        > http://mikebyers.com
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