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Re: Thin, black nickel

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  • byersnc
    I bought that 1964-D 5c on a wrong planchet NGC from Rich 2 years ago. It was clad/nickel with a copper inner circle. Really weird. The coin is being
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 29, 2004
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      I bought that 1964-D 5c on a wrong planchet NGC from Rich 2 years
      ago. It was clad/nickel with a copper inner circle. Really weird.
      The coin is being researched as we speak... I will have it back
      within 30 days.

      Mike Byers
      http://mikebyers.com











      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
      <mdia1@a...> wrote:
      >
      > Even before I do the SG tests, I can eliminate steel and pure
      > elemental nickel (non-magnetic) and zinc (too sharp a ring).
      Silver
      > would, I think, be heavier given the coin's thickness. Copper-
      plated
      > Cu-Ni makes no sense as a normal composition for any coin. I've
      > never heard of that composition for any foreign coin.
      >
      > My prediction is that the SG measurements will fall within the
      normal
      > range of variation for copper and nickel. The two elements have
      > almost the same density, so SG analysis cannot discriminate
      between
      > the two or any alloy composed of the two.
      >
      > A frustrating situation, but one I'm used to when it comes to
      goofy
      > planchets. A lot of wierd stuff ends up being struck and you've
      just
      > gotta throw up your hands in wonderment.
      >
      > I think Rich Schemmer had a 1964 or 1964-D nickel on an undersized
      > planchet that also had a copper-over-nickel appearance. But my
      > memory is a bit hazy on that particular specimen.
      >
      > My nickel is full-sized and surprisingly well-struck, considering
      its
      > thinness. There is weakness around Jeff's ear, the middle of
      > Monticello, and a small part of the reverse rim. Otherwise, it's
      a
      > crisp strike.
      >
      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
      Diamond"
      > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
      > >
      > > This coin is even more interesting than I anticipated. It
      weighs
      > > 3.88 grams vs. the normal 5 grams. It is uncirculated with a
      dark
      > > patina, not quite black with hints of brown and copper. It has
      a
      > > sharp ring. I gave the edge a good scrape against a fine
      > sharpening
      > > stone. It is thickly plated with copper and underneath that is
      > > nickel-colored metal. It is not attracted to a magnet.
      > >
      > > So this coin was struck on a thin, underweight, copper-plated,
      > copper-
      > > nickel (or nickel-colored) planchet. The plating is at least as
      > > thick as that seen on a recent cent. The plating appears to be
      of
      > > uniform thickness and is not flaky at all, which makes me think
      I'm
      > > dealing with something other than "sintered plating". However,
      I
      > > can't rule out the latter possibility.
      > >
      > > I think some specific gravity tests are in order.
      > >
      > > Rolled thin and sintered? Foreign planchet? Sintered foreign
      > > planchet? Copper-plated foreign Cu/Ni planchet? Experimental
      > > composition?
      > >
      > > Anything is possible. 1964 was a strange year...
      > >
      > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
      Diamond"
      > > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > This is the third thin, black nickel I've seen dated 1964-D.
      > > >
      > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3946767516
      > > >
      > > > The other two were even lighter, coming in at 2.9 grams. I
      have
      > no
      > > > idea what's going on. What else is new? We don't even know
      why
      > > > normal weight nickels sometimes appear black. "Copper wash"
      just
      > > > doesn't cut it.
    • Mike Diamond
      Am I correct in recollecting that the coin was undersized as well as underweight? As I ve mentioned before, I ve seen a number of 1964 and 1964-D nickels
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 29, 2004
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        Am I correct in recollecting that the coin was undersized as well as
        underweight?

        As I've mentioned before, I've seen a number of 1964 and 1964-D
        nickels struck on undersized planchets. Ynes (yczavala) has one
        that's dull gray, quite small, and registers a dull thud when you
        drop it. Definitely not Cu-Ni composition. Not magnetic, either.

        Thad (copstaffer) and I each have thin, black, full-sized, 2.9g
        nickels that beg explanation.

        I'm not sure how much research will accomplish, as nobody really has
        a clue how even commonly available, "sintered" nickels are formed.
        The current explanation for "sintered plating" fails to explain:

        1. Why heavily sintered nickels occur past the period when copper
        dust was available (e.g. post-1982).

        2. Why a fair proportion of such nickels are significantly
        underweight (they should be overweight).

        3. Why cracking and flaking sometimes affects the non-copper colored
        areas as well as the copper.

        4. Why some of these nickels show copper carrying away the underlying
        copper nickel as a composite flake.

        5. Why on one specimen the nickel has split to reveal underlying
        copper.

        6. Why the underlying metal is variously bright nickel, dull gray,
        chocolate brown, or black.

        7. Why surrounding metal is often black.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        >
        > I bought that 1964-D 5c on a wrong planchet NGC from Rich 2 years
        > ago. It was clad/nickel with a copper inner circle. Really weird.
        > The coin is being researched as we speak... I will have it back
        > within 30 days.
        >
        > Mike Byers
        > http://mikebyers.com
      • Jon Sullivan
        Mike, well, at this point Iim thinking that error type occurs somewhere in the strip production process. Maybe the alloy mixture or something. But no proof of
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 29, 2004
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          Mike,

          well, at this point Iim thinking that error type occurs somewhere in
          the strip production process. Maybe the alloy mixture or something. But
          no proof of that other than it just seems like it would make sense
          because the planchets are underweight, and it has to do with the alloy.

          Jon


          On Wednesday, December 29, 2004, at 05:36 PM, Mike Diamond wrote:

          >
          > Am I correct in recollecting that the coin was undersized as well as
          > underweight?
          >
          > As I've mentioned before, I've seen a number of 1964 and 1964-D
          > nickels struck on undersized planchets.  Ynes (yczavala) has one
          > that's dull gray, quite small, and registers a dull thud when you
          > drop it.  Definitely not Cu-Ni composition.  Not magnetic, either.
          >
          > Thad (copstaffer) and I each have thin, black, full-sized, 2.9g
          > nickels that beg explanation.
          >
          > I'm not sure how much research will accomplish, as nobody really has
          > a clue how even commonly available, "sintered" nickels are formed. 
          > The current explanation for "sintered plating" fails to explain:
          >
          > 1. Why heavily sintered nickels occur past the period when copper
          > dust was available (e.g. post-1982).
          >
          > 2. Why a fair proportion of such nickels are significantly
          > underweight (they should be overweight).
          >
          > 3. Why cracking and flaking sometimes affects the non-copper colored
          > areas as well as the copper.
          >
          > 4. Why some of these nickels show copper carrying away the underlying
          > copper nickel as a composite flake.
          >
          > 5. Why on one specimen the nickel has split to reveal underlying
          > copper.
          >
          > 6. Why the underlying metal is variously bright nickel, dull gray,
          > chocolate brown, or black.
          >
          > 7. Why surrounding metal is often black.
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
          > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > I bought that 1964-D 5c on a wrong planchet NGC from Rich 2 years
          > > ago.   It was clad/nickel with a copper inner circle. Really weird.
          > > The coin is being researched as we speak... I will have it back
          > > within 30 days.
          > >
          > > Mike Byers
          > > http://mikebyers.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          <image.tiff>
          >
          >
          <image.tiff>
          >
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          >
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        • Mike Diamond
          I thought of that too, but it doesn t work. The copper on these sintered nickels forms a complete cortex or shell. The blanking process should expose the
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 29, 2004
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            I thought of that too, but it doesn't work. The copper on
            these "sintered" nickels forms a complete cortex or shell. The
            blanking process should expose the Cu-Ni core. The edge never shows
            evidence of layering, even where the copper has flaked off.

            Nothing makes sense, I'm afraid. But thanks for trying.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
            <errcoins@b...> wrote:
            > Mike,
            >
            > well, at this point Iim thinking that error type occurs somewhere
            in
            > the strip production process. Maybe the alloy mixture or something.
            But
            > no proof of that other than it just seems like it would make sense
            > because the planchets are underweight, and it has to do with the
            alloy.
            >
            > Jon
          • byersnc
            Your memory was excellent in regards to Rich having it at one point....but it is not undersized or light weight. It is full size and weighs 5.0 grams. It s a
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 29, 2004
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              Your memory was excellent in regards to Rich having it at one
              point....but it is not undersized or light weight. It is full size
              and weighs 5.0 grams. It's a real puzzle.

              Mike Byers
              http://mikebyers.com









              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
              <mdia1@a...> wrote:
              >
              > Am I correct in recollecting that the coin was undersized as well
              as
              > underweight?
              >
              > As I've mentioned before, I've seen a number of 1964 and 1964-D
              > nickels struck on undersized planchets. Ynes (yczavala) has one
              > that's dull gray, quite small, and registers a dull thud when you
              > drop it. Definitely not Cu-Ni composition. Not magnetic, either.
              >
              > Thad (copstaffer) and I each have thin, black, full-sized, 2.9g
              > nickels that beg explanation.
              >
              > I'm not sure how much research will accomplish, as nobody really
              has
              > a clue how even commonly available, "sintered" nickels are
              formed.
              > The current explanation for "sintered plating" fails to explain:
              >
              > 1. Why heavily sintered nickels occur past the period when copper
              > dust was available (e.g. post-1982).
              >
              > 2. Why a fair proportion of such nickels are significantly
              > underweight (they should be overweight).
              >
              > 3. Why cracking and flaking sometimes affects the non-copper
              colored
              > areas as well as the copper.
              >
              > 4. Why some of these nickels show copper carrying away the
              underlying
              > copper nickel as a composite flake.
              >
              > 5. Why on one specimen the nickel has split to reveal underlying
              > copper.
              >
              > 6. Why the underlying metal is variously bright nickel, dull gray,
              > chocolate brown, or black.
              >
              > 7. Why surrounding metal is often black.
              >
              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
              > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > > I bought that 1964-D 5c on a wrong planchet NGC from Rich 2
              years
              > > ago. It was clad/nickel with a copper inner circle. Really
              weird.
              > > The coin is being researched as we speak... I will have it back
              > > within 30 days.
              > >
              > > Mike Byers
              > > http://mikebyers.com
            • Mike Diamond
              Is there any trace of a microscopic fissure surrounding the copper bullseye ? Is there any flaking of the copper? Such clues might help eliminate some
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 29, 2004
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                Is there any trace of a microscopic fissure surrounding the
                copper "bullseye"? Is there any flaking of the copper? Such clues
                might help eliminate some possibilities but certainly won't solve the
                mystery.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Your memory was excellent in regards to Rich having it at one
                > point....but it is not undersized or light weight. It is full size
                > and weighs 5.0 grams. It's a real puzzle.
                >
                > Mike Byers
                > http://mikebyers.com
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Am I correct in recollecting that the coin was undersized as well
                > as
                > > underweight?
                > >
                > > As I've mentioned before, I've seen a number of 1964 and 1964-D
                > > nickels struck on undersized planchets. Ynes (yczavala) has one
                > > that's dull gray, quite small, and registers a dull thud when you
                > > drop it. Definitely not Cu-Ni composition. Not magnetic, either.
                > >
                > > Thad (copstaffer) and I each have thin, black, full-sized, 2.9g
                > > nickels that beg explanation.
                > >
                > > I'm not sure how much research will accomplish, as nobody really
                > has
                > > a clue how even commonly available, "sintered" nickels are
                > formed.
                > > The current explanation for "sintered plating" fails to explain:
                > >
                > > 1. Why heavily sintered nickels occur past the period when copper
                > > dust was available (e.g. post-1982).
                > >
                > > 2. Why a fair proportion of such nickels are significantly
                > > underweight (they should be overweight).
                > >
                > > 3. Why cracking and flaking sometimes affects the non-copper
                > colored
                > > areas as well as the copper.
                > >
                > > 4. Why some of these nickels show copper carrying away the
                > underlying
                > > copper nickel as a composite flake.
                > >
                > > 5. Why on one specimen the nickel has split to reveal underlying
                > > copper.
                > >
                > > 6. Why the underlying metal is variously bright nickel, dull
                gray,
                > > chocolate brown, or black.
                > >
                > > 7. Why surrounding metal is often black.
                > >
                > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I bought that 1964-D 5c on a wrong planchet NGC from Rich 2
                > years
                > > > ago. It was clad/nickel with a copper inner circle. Really
                > weird.
                > > > The coin is being researched as we speak... I will have it back
                > > > within 30 days.
                > > >
                > > > Mike Byers
                > > > http://mikebyers.com
              • Mike Diamond
                I ran a specific gravity test. It comes to 8.62. It s a little low but it s still much closer to copper and nickel than any other commonly used metals. If
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 29, 2004
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                  I ran a specific gravity test. It comes to 8.62. It's a little low
                  but it's still much closer to copper and nickel than any other
                  commonly used metals. If there are any other ingredients, it would
                  take an SEM/X-ray analysis to pick them up, and I'm not gonna plunk
                  down $100 for the privilege of having one done.

                  It's clearly not a foreign planchet, as the mint didn't produce any
                  plated coins in the period preceding 1973. Copper-plated Cu-Ni makes
                  little sense as an option for any country.

                  So we're back to the "rolled thin and sintered" hypothesis, which
                  gets us nowhere, since we don't really understand sintering (or
                  whatever the source of the copper is). Since there's no flaking and
                  no gaps at all in the copper plating, it would be a rather unusual
                  case of sintering. A token planchet, perhaps?

                  I guess I'll just file it away in my suspense account until such time
                  as I can figure it out. A neat little mystery for $7.50.

                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                  <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                  >
                  > This coin is even more interesting than I anticipated. It weighs
                  > 3.88 grams vs. the normal 5 grams. It is uncirculated with a dark
                  > patina, not quite black with hints of brown and copper. It has a
                  > sharp ring. I gave the edge a good scrape against a fine
                  sharpening
                  > stone. It is thickly plated with copper and underneath that is
                  > nickel-colored metal. It is not attracted to a magnet.
                  >
                  > So this coin was struck on a thin, underweight, copper-plated,
                  copper-
                  > nickel (or nickel-colored) planchet. The plating is at least as
                  > thick as that seen on a recent cent. The plating appears to be of
                  > uniform thickness and is not flaky at all, which makes me think I'm
                  > dealing with something other than "sintered plating". However, I
                  > can't rule out the latter possibility.
                  >
                  > I think some specific gravity tests are in order.
                  >
                  > Rolled thin and sintered? Foreign planchet? Sintered foreign
                  > planchet? Copper-plated foreign Cu/Ni planchet? Experimental
                  > composition?
                  >
                  > Anything is possible. 1964 was a strange year...
                  >
                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                  > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > This is the third thin, black nickel I've seen dated 1964-D.
                  > >
                  > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3946767516
                  > >
                  > > The other two were even lighter, coming in at 2.9 grams. I have
                  no
                  > > idea what's going on. What else is new? We don't even know why
                  > > normal weight nickels sometimes appear black. "Copper wash" just
                  > > doesn't cut it.
                • Mike Diamond
                  Wait a sec. Clad/nickel ?! You re saying it s clad composition? You can see a copper core on the edge? Are you perhaps indicating that you have a donut of
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 29, 2004
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                    Wait a sec. "Clad/nickel"?! You're saying it's clad composition?
                    You can see a copper core on the edge? Are you perhaps indicating
                    that you have a donut of cladding on each face?!

                    Perhaps this is all due to a typo and you meant "copper/nickel"?

                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                    <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I bought that 1964-D 5c on a wrong planchet NGC from Rich 2 years
                    > ago. It was clad/nickel with a copper inner circle. Really weird.
                    > The coin is being researched as we speak... I will have it back
                    > within 30 days.
                    >
                    > Mike Byers
                    > http://mikebyers.com
                  • byersnc
                    Correct! Copper core on edge. Nickel size. Copper center obv and reverse. Fissure surrounding copper bullseye on obv. and rev. But still 5.0 grams. A real
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 29, 2004
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                      Correct! Copper core on edge. Nickel size. Copper center obv and
                      reverse. Fissure surrounding copper "bullseye" on obv. and rev. But
                      still 5.0 grams. A real mystery. Not a typo...


                      Mike Byers
                      http://mikebyers.com






                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                      <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Wait a sec. "Clad/nickel"?! You're saying it's clad
                      composition?
                      > You can see a copper core on the edge? Are you perhaps indicating
                      > that you have a donut of cladding on each face?!
                      >
                      > Perhaps this is all due to a typo and you meant "copper/nickel"?
                      >
                      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                      > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I bought that 1964-D 5c on a wrong planchet NGC from Rich 2
                      years
                      > > ago. It was clad/nickel with a copper inner circle. Really
                      weird.
                      > > The coin is being researched as we speak... I will have it back
                      > > within 30 days.
                      > >
                      > > Mike Byers
                      > > http://mikebyers.com
                    • Mike Diamond
                      Interesting. But it must be different from the coin I was originally thinking of. I dug out images I had stored on my computer and posted them in the default
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 29, 2004
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                        Interesting. But it must be different from the coin I was originally
                        thinking of. I dug out images I had stored on my computer and posted
                        them in the default album. THIS coin is clearly undersized. These
                        photos were taken by Rich and I hope he doesn't mind me using them
                        temporarily in a public forum.

                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Correct! Copper core on edge. Nickel size. Copper center obv and
                        > reverse. Fissure surrounding copper "bullseye" on obv. and rev. But
                        > still 5.0 grams. A real mystery. Not a typo...
                        >
                        >
                        > Mike Byers
                        > http://mikebyers.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                        > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Wait a sec. "Clad/nickel"?! You're saying it's clad
                        > composition?
                        > > You can see a copper core on the edge? Are you perhaps
                        indicating
                        > > that you have a donut of cladding on each face?!
                        > >
                        > > Perhaps this is all due to a typo and you meant "copper/nickel"?
                        > >
                        > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                        > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I bought that 1964-D 5c on a wrong planchet NGC from Rich 2
                        > years
                        > > > ago. It was clad/nickel with a copper inner circle. Really
                        > weird.
                        > > > The coin is being researched as we speak... I will have it back
                        > > > within 30 days.
                        > > >
                        > > > Mike Byers
                        > > > http://mikebyers.com
                      • byersnc
                        I purchased the coin from Rich that you posted in the default album. It s a mystery too. The previous nickel which is being analyzed may not have come from
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 29, 2004
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                          I purchased the coin from Rich that you posted in the default album.
                          It's a mystery too.

                          The previous nickel which is being analyzed may
                          not have come from Rich. I'll check my records.

                          Many strange things happened in 1964, and not just in the Jefferson
                          series...

                          Mike Byers
                          http://mikebyers.com








                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                          <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Interesting. But it must be different from the coin I was
                          originally
                          > thinking of. I dug out images I had stored on my computer and
                          posted
                          > them in the default album. THIS coin is clearly undersized.
                          These
                          > photos were taken by Rich and I hope he doesn't mind me using them
                          > temporarily in a public forum.
                          >
                          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                          > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Correct! Copper core on edge. Nickel size. Copper center obv
                          and
                          > > reverse. Fissure surrounding copper "bullseye" on obv. and rev.
                          But
                          > > still 5.0 grams. A real mystery. Not a typo...
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Mike Byers
                          > > http://mikebyers.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                          Diamond"
                          > > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Wait a sec. "Clad/nickel"?! You're saying it's clad
                          > > composition?
                          > > > You can see a copper core on the edge? Are you perhaps
                          > indicating
                          > > > that you have a donut of cladding on each face?!
                          > > >
                          > > > Perhaps this is all due to a typo and you
                          meant "copper/nickel"?
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, byersnc
                          > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I bought that 1964-D 5c on a wrong planchet NGC from Rich 2
                          > > years
                          > > > > ago. It was clad/nickel with a copper inner circle. Really
                          > > weird.
                          > > > > The coin is being researched as we speak... I will have it
                          back
                          > > > > within 30 days.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Mike Byers
                          > > > > http://mikebyers.com
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