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Re: Strange struck-through cent

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  • Mike Diamond
    I now notice that, although the coin is expanded, the peripheral design elements are present at the very edge of the coin. This is also where they are
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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      I now notice that, although the coin is expanded, the peripheral
      design elements are present at the very edge of the coin. This is
      also where they are clearest and least distorted.

      I may be that this coin IS a double strike and that the first strike
      was perfectly normal. It may have then been kicked into a nearby
      striking chamber in which both dies were covered by deteriorated die
      caps. It was then struck again.

      This would explain the clarity of the peripheral design elements, the
      clarity and flattish appearance of the larger date, the presence of
      peripheral design elements at the outer margin of the coin, and the
      doubling seen on both the obverse and the reverse.

      If this is the case, then the close alignment of first and second
      strikes would be coincidental. Is this too farfetched a
      possibility? I couldn't really say. But I think this fits the facts
      better than my initial guesses.


      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
      <mdia1@a...> wrote:
      >
      > It's possible that the custard-like texture on the reverse is from
      a
      > deteriorated reverse die cap. After all, the coin is broadstruck,
      so
      > a reverse die cap could conceivably be thinned to this extent from
      > numerous strikes.
      >
      > The custard-like texture on the obverse could then be from a late-
      > stage obverse die cap that formed at just about the same time as
      the
      > reverse die cap. The doubled date could be from a shift or
      rotation
      > of the obverse die cap just prior to the strike that created this
      > coin.
      >
      > This hypothesis still does not explain the clear outlines of the
      > larger date, or the dramatic difference in size between the two
      > dates. But it's the best I can do on short notice.
      >
      > If I am correct, then this would be a "sandwich strike" of a sort.
      > It's odd that the coin is only slightly expanded, despite the added
      > thicknesses on both die faces. Some other things were probably
      going
      > wrong, such as an abnormally great die spacing.
      >
      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
      > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
      > > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
      > > > Hi Mike,
      > > >
      > > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
      > > now.
      > > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
      > > >
      > > > Jon
      > >
      > > I assume you mean this coin:
      > >
      > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
      > > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
      > >
      > > I confess that I am baffled by this one. I have seen this
      custard-
      > > like texture before, but only on the obverse face. I had
      > previously
      > > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap. Its presence
      > on
      > > both faces is very puzzling.
      > >
      > > The doubled date is odd, too. The stronger date, while weak, has
      > > sharp outlines. That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
      > > strike. The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd. It
      > > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised
      or
      > > incuse.
      > >
      > > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims. The
      > > doubling may be due to some other cause.
      > >
      > > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
    • Mike Diamond
      Such an error would not be wholly unprecedented. I have an in- collar, flipover, double-struck nickel in which the second strike was also a capped die strike.
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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        Such an error would not be wholly unprecedented. I have an in-
        collar, flipover, double-struck nickel in which the second strike was
        also a capped die strike. I got it from Fred Weinberg several years
        ago. He had a second nickel just like it. I just wish I had had the
        presence of mind to purchase both of them.

        On my specimen, I can't tell if the first strike was also a capped
        die strike, as the evidence of the first strike is almost obliterated
        on the reverse face of the second strike.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
        <mdia1@a...> wrote:

        > I may be that this coin IS a double strike and that the first
        strike
        > was perfectly normal. It may have then been kicked into a nearby
        > striking chamber in which both dies were covered by deteriorated
        die
        > caps. It was then struck again.
      • Jon Sullivan
        Hi Mike, Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I know you can t say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you d have an opinion,
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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          Hi Mike,

          Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I know
          you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you'd have
          an opinion, which is why I asked :-)

          Thanks,
          Jon


          On Sunday, October 3, 2004, at 08:19 AM, Mike Diamond wrote:

          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
          > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
          > > Hi Mike,
          > >
          > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
          > now.
          > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
          > >
          > > Jon
          >
          > I assume you mean this coin:
          >
          > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
          > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
          >
          > I confess that I am baffled by this one.  I have seen this custard-
          > like texture before, but only on the obverse face.  I had previously
          > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap.  Its presence on
          > both faces is very puzzling.
          >
          > The doubled date is odd, too.  The stronger date, while weak, has
          > sharp outlines.  That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
          > strike.  The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd.  It
          > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised or
          > incuse.
          >
          > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims.  The
          > doubling may be due to some other cause.
          >
          > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          <image.tiff>
          >
          >
          <image.tiff>
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
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          >
        • Rafael Delgado
          Could this have anything to do with (grease n metal-dust) dirty dies? Rafael ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/errorcoininformationexchange/ ...
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 4, 2004
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            Could this have anything to do with (grease n' metal-dust)
            dirty dies?
            Rafael


            --- Jon Sullivan <errcoins@...> wrote:

            > Hi Mike,
            >
            > Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of
            > course I know
            > you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I
            > knew you'd have
            > an opinion, which is why I asked :-)
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Jon
            >
            >
            > On Sunday, October 3, 2004, at 08:19 AM, Mike Diamond
            > wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
            > Jon Sullivan
            > > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
            > > > Hi Mike,
            > > >
            > > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on
            > eBay right
            > > now.
            > > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it
            > was made?
            > > >
            > > > Jon
            > >
            > > I assume you mean this coin:
            > >
            > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
            > > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
            > >
            > > I confess that I am baffled by this one.� I have seen
            > this custard-
            > > like texture before, but only on the obverse face.� I
            > had previously
            > > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap.�
            > Its presence on
            > > both faces is very puzzling.
            > >
            > > The doubled date is odd, too.� The stronger date, while
            > weak, has
            > > sharp outlines.� That's not what you'd expect in a
            > capped die
            > > strike.� The weaker date appears smaller, which is also
            > odd.� It
            > > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date
            > is raised or
            > > incuse.
            > >
            > > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich
            > claims.� The
            > > doubling may be due to some other cause.
            > >
            > > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > <image.tiff>
            > >
            > >
            > <image.tiff>
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > >
            >
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/errorcoininformationexchange/
            > > �
            > > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > >
            > errorcoininformationexchange-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > �
            > > � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
            > Terms of Service.
            > >
            >




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          • Mike Diamond
            That s possible but, again, I ve previously only seen this texture associated with the obverse (hammer) die. That suggests a die cap or cap-like obstruction.
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 4, 2004
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              That's possible but, again, I've previously only seen this texture
              associated with the obverse (hammer) die. That suggests a die cap or
              cap-like obstruction. I've also seen apparent shifted cap strikes
              with this texture, which would again support the die cap
              interpretation.

              On the other hand, "grease strikes" are often found on both dies,
              while I've never seen a coin struck by a die cap on both dies.

              So I will admit that all my hypotheses are saddled with an
              unacceptably high degree of uncertainty.

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael Delgado
              <my_errors@y...> wrote:
              > Could this have anything to do with (grease n' metal-dust)
              > dirty dies?
              > Rafael
            • Mike Diamond
              I edged out midnitesurfer for the chance to thoroughly examine this specimen. I hope I can narrow down the possibilities after I get it. I will give you all
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 9, 2004
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                I edged out midnitesurfer for the chance to thoroughly examine this
                specimen. I hope I can narrow down the possibilities after I get
                it. I will give you all a full report next week (or as soon as it
                arrives).

                http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3933508833

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                >
                > That's possible but, again, I've previously only seen this texture
                > associated with the obverse (hammer) die. That suggests a die cap
                or
                > cap-like obstruction. I've also seen apparent shifted cap strikes
                > with this texture, which would again support the die cap
                > interpretation.
                >
                > On the other hand, "grease strikes" are often found on both dies,
                > while I've never seen a coin struck by a die cap on both dies.
                >
                > So I will admit that all my hypotheses are saddled with an
                > unacceptably high degree of uncertainty.
                >
                > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael Delgado
                > <my_errors@y...> wrote:
                > > Could this have anything to do with (grease n' metal-dust)
                > > dirty dies?
                > > Rafael
              • Mike Diamond
                I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833 The last hypothesis I
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 18, 2004
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                  I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture:

                  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833

                  The last hypothesis I introduced appears to be the correct one. It
                  looks like the first strike was normal (or nearly so) and the second
                  strike was between a different set of dies that were covered by die
                  caps or cap-like obstructions. The perfect alignment between the two
                  strikes appears to be coincidental.

                  The coin is expanded to beyond the size of a nickel. The clearer of
                  the two dates (2000) is flattened in a way that can only be
                  accomplished through a second strike. The outer parts of the
                  peripheral letters are clear and reach the rim, despite the
                  significant expansion of the coin. This is also characteristic of a
                  double strike beneath a cap or planchet. Farther toward the center
                  of the coin those same letters are flattened in the same way that the
                  date is. The manner of flattening is very similar to my double
                  struck nickel in which the second strike was through a late-stage die
                  cap.

                  So this coin represents a remarkable series of events.

                  Thanks, Rich!

                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                  <errcoins@b...> wrote:

                  > Hi Mike,
                  >
                  > Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I
                  know
                  > you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you'd
                  have
                  > an opinion, which is why I asked :-)
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  > Jon
                • Mike Diamond
                  As to whether this would qualify as a full sandwich strike on the second strike, that would be iffy. Generally the term sandwich strike is applied to a
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 18, 2004
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                    As to whether this would qualify as a "full sandwich strike" on the
                    second strike, that would be iffy. Generally the term "sandwich
                    strike" is applied to a coin or planchet that is struck between two
                    other coins or planchets. I don't think deteriorated caps or cap-
                    like obstructions qualify.

                    Still, it's a pretty neat set of circumstances.

                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                    <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture:
                    >
                    > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833
                    >
                    > The last hypothesis I introduced appears to be the correct one. It
                    > looks like the first strike was normal (or nearly so) and the
                    second
                    > strike was between a different set of dies that were covered by die
                    > caps or cap-like obstructions. The perfect alignment between the
                    two
                    > strikes appears to be coincidental.
                    >
                    > The coin is expanded to beyond the size of a nickel. The clearer
                    of
                    > the two dates (2000) is flattened in a way that can only be
                    > accomplished through a second strike. The outer parts of the
                    > peripheral letters are clear and reach the rim, despite the
                    > significant expansion of the coin. This is also characteristic of
                    a
                    > double strike beneath a cap or planchet. Farther toward the center
                    > of the coin those same letters are flattened in the same way that
                    the
                    > date is. The manner of flattening is very similar to my double
                    > struck nickel in which the second strike was through a late-stage
                    die
                    > cap.
                    >
                    > So this coin represents a remarkable series of events.
                  • Mike Diamond
                    The perfect alignment between the first and second strike remains disturbing. There is only a 1 in 360 chance that a coin will end up in this orientation when
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
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                      The perfect alignment between the first and second strike remains
                      disturbing. There is only a 1 in 360 chance that a coin will end up
                      in this orientation when shunted to a different striking chamber.
                      Still, all the remaining physical evidence points to this being the
                      case.

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                      <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                      >
                      > As to whether this would qualify as a "full sandwich strike" on the
                      > second strike, that would be iffy. Generally the term "sandwich
                      > strike" is applied to a coin or planchet that is struck between two
                      > other coins or planchets. I don't think deteriorated caps or cap-
                      > like obstructions qualify.
                      >
                      > Still, it's a pretty neat set of circumstances.
                    • Rich Schemmer
                      Your welcome, Mike I knew this coin would get your attention as It did mine when it was offered to me at the ANA. Thanx Rich Rich Schemmer Error Coins
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
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                        Your welcome, Mike I knew this coin would get your attention as It
                        did mine when it was offered to me at the ANA.
                        Thanx
                        Rich
                        Rich Schemmer Error Coins
                        http://WWW.RichErrors.com/store.php

                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                        <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture:
                        >
                        > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833
                        >
                        > The last hypothesis I introduced appears to be the correct one. It
                        > looks like the first strike was normal (or nearly so) and the
                        second
                        > strike was between a different set of dies that were covered by die
                        > caps or cap-like obstructions. The perfect alignment between the
                        two
                        > strikes appears to be coincidental.
                        >
                        > The coin is expanded to beyond the size of a nickel. The clearer
                        of
                        > the two dates (2000) is flattened in a way that can only be
                        > accomplished through a second strike. The outer parts of the
                        > peripheral letters are clear and reach the rim, despite the
                        > significant expansion of the coin. This is also characteristic of
                        a
                        > double strike beneath a cap or planchet. Farther toward the center
                        > of the coin those same letters are flattened in the same way that
                        the
                        > date is. The manner of flattening is very similar to my double
                        > struck nickel in which the second strike was through a late-stage
                        die
                        > cap.
                        >
                        > So this coin represents a remarkable series of events.
                        >
                        > Thanks, Rich!
                        >
                        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                        > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Hi Mike,
                        > >
                        > > Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I
                        > know
                        > > you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you'd
                        > have
                        > > an opinion, which is why I asked :-)
                        > >
                        > > Thanks,
                        > > Jon
                      • Mike Diamond
                        It s also possible that the perfect alignment between first and second strikes could be due to an assist from a mischeivous mint worker. Maybe someone just
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
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                          It's also possible that the perfect alignment between first and
                          second strikes could be due to an assist from a mischeivous mint
                          worker. Maybe someone just wanted to see what a struck cent would
                          look like when placed between a pair of die caps. Anything's
                          possible.

                          This is certainly one for the books.

                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                          <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                          >
                          > The perfect alignment between the first and second strike remains
                          > disturbing. There is only a 1 in 360 chance that a coin will end
                          up
                          > in this orientation when shunted to a different striking chamber.
                          > Still, all the remaining physical evidence points to this being the
                          > case.
                        • Mike Diamond
                          Another neat thing to appreciate is that this coin provides one exception to the rule that you cannot get an enlarged coin that shows expansion of the raised
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
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                            Another neat thing to appreciate is that this coin provides one
                            exception to the rule that you cannot get an enlarged coin that shows
                            expansion of the raised design on both faces.

                            There are lots of "giant coins" out there that show proportional
                            expansion on both faces. These are allegedly hammered between two
                            pieces of leather to acheive this effect.

                            The coin I got from Rich obviously looks nothing like these fakes,
                            except that both faces do show expansion of the design.

                            Any full sandwich strike on a struck coin would also be expected to
                            show expansion of the design on both faces. I haven't seen one yet.
                            I have seen full sandwich strikes with a full brockage on the obverse
                            and an expanded raised design on the reverse. I have one
                            (regrettfully mangled after the strike) and Glen Burger had one. I
                            suspect that if you were able to pry apart some bonded coins, you
                            will find expansion of the raised design of both faces of some of the
                            coins in the stack.

                            I once thought I had a full sandwich strike on an already-struck 2000-
                            D cent. But I now believe that one is a fake.
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