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Strange struck-through cent

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  • Mike Diamond
    ... now. ... I assume you mean this coin: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833 I confess that I am baffled by this one.
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
      <errcoins@b...> wrote:
      > Hi Mike,
      >
      > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
      now.
      > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
      >
      > Jon

      I assume you mean this coin:

      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
      ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833

      I confess that I am baffled by this one. I have seen this custard-
      like texture before, but only on the obverse face. I had previously
      assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap. Its presence on
      both faces is very puzzling.

      The doubled date is odd, too. The stronger date, while weak, has
      sharp outlines. That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
      strike. The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd. It
      would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised or
      incuse.

      I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims. The
      doubling may be due to some other cause.

      Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
    • Mike Diamond
      It s possible that the custard-like texture on the reverse is from a deteriorated reverse die cap. After all, the coin is broadstruck, so a reverse die cap
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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        It's possible that the custard-like texture on the reverse is from a
        deteriorated reverse die cap. After all, the coin is broadstruck, so
        a reverse die cap could conceivably be thinned to this extent from
        numerous strikes.

        The custard-like texture on the obverse could then be from a late-
        stage obverse die cap that formed at just about the same time as the
        reverse die cap. The doubled date could be from a shift or rotation
        of the obverse die cap just prior to the strike that created this
        coin.

        This hypothesis still does not explain the clear outlines of the
        larger date, or the dramatic difference in size between the two
        dates. But it's the best I can do on short notice.

        If I am correct, then this would be a "sandwich strike" of a sort.
        It's odd that the coin is only slightly expanded, despite the added
        thicknesses on both die faces. Some other things were probably going
        wrong, such as an abnormally great die spacing.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
        <mdia1@a...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
        > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
        > > Hi Mike,
        > >
        > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
        > now.
        > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
        > >
        > > Jon
        >
        > I assume you mean this coin:
        >
        > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
        > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
        >
        > I confess that I am baffled by this one. I have seen this custard-
        > like texture before, but only on the obverse face. I had
        previously
        > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap. Its presence
        on
        > both faces is very puzzling.
        >
        > The doubled date is odd, too. The stronger date, while weak, has
        > sharp outlines. That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
        > strike. The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd. It
        > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised or
        > incuse.
        >
        > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims. The
        > doubling may be due to some other cause.
        >
        > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
      • Mike Diamond
        I now notice that, although the coin is expanded, the peripheral design elements are present at the very edge of the coin. This is also where they are
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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          I now notice that, although the coin is expanded, the peripheral
          design elements are present at the very edge of the coin. This is
          also where they are clearest and least distorted.

          I may be that this coin IS a double strike and that the first strike
          was perfectly normal. It may have then been kicked into a nearby
          striking chamber in which both dies were covered by deteriorated die
          caps. It was then struck again.

          This would explain the clarity of the peripheral design elements, the
          clarity and flattish appearance of the larger date, the presence of
          peripheral design elements at the outer margin of the coin, and the
          doubling seen on both the obverse and the reverse.

          If this is the case, then the close alignment of first and second
          strikes would be coincidental. Is this too farfetched a
          possibility? I couldn't really say. But I think this fits the facts
          better than my initial guesses.


          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
          <mdia1@a...> wrote:
          >
          > It's possible that the custard-like texture on the reverse is from
          a
          > deteriorated reverse die cap. After all, the coin is broadstruck,
          so
          > a reverse die cap could conceivably be thinned to this extent from
          > numerous strikes.
          >
          > The custard-like texture on the obverse could then be from a late-
          > stage obverse die cap that formed at just about the same time as
          the
          > reverse die cap. The doubled date could be from a shift or
          rotation
          > of the obverse die cap just prior to the strike that created this
          > coin.
          >
          > This hypothesis still does not explain the clear outlines of the
          > larger date, or the dramatic difference in size between the two
          > dates. But it's the best I can do on short notice.
          >
          > If I am correct, then this would be a "sandwich strike" of a sort.
          > It's odd that the coin is only slightly expanded, despite the added
          > thicknesses on both die faces. Some other things were probably
          going
          > wrong, such as an abnormally great die spacing.
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
          > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
          > >
          > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
          > > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
          > > > Hi Mike,
          > > >
          > > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
          > > now.
          > > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
          > > >
          > > > Jon
          > >
          > > I assume you mean this coin:
          > >
          > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
          > > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
          > >
          > > I confess that I am baffled by this one. I have seen this
          custard-
          > > like texture before, but only on the obverse face. I had
          > previously
          > > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap. Its presence
          > on
          > > both faces is very puzzling.
          > >
          > > The doubled date is odd, too. The stronger date, while weak, has
          > > sharp outlines. That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
          > > strike. The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd. It
          > > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised
          or
          > > incuse.
          > >
          > > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims. The
          > > doubling may be due to some other cause.
          > >
          > > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
        • Mike Diamond
          Such an error would not be wholly unprecedented. I have an in- collar, flipover, double-struck nickel in which the second strike was also a capped die strike.
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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            Such an error would not be wholly unprecedented. I have an in-
            collar, flipover, double-struck nickel in which the second strike was
            also a capped die strike. I got it from Fred Weinberg several years
            ago. He had a second nickel just like it. I just wish I had had the
            presence of mind to purchase both of them.

            On my specimen, I can't tell if the first strike was also a capped
            die strike, as the evidence of the first strike is almost obliterated
            on the reverse face of the second strike.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
            <mdia1@a...> wrote:

            > I may be that this coin IS a double strike and that the first
            strike
            > was perfectly normal. It may have then been kicked into a nearby
            > striking chamber in which both dies were covered by deteriorated
            die
            > caps. It was then struck again.
          • Jon Sullivan
            Hi Mike, Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I know you can t say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you d have an opinion,
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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              Hi Mike,

              Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I know
              you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you'd have
              an opinion, which is why I asked :-)

              Thanks,
              Jon


              On Sunday, October 3, 2004, at 08:19 AM, Mike Diamond wrote:

              >
              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
              > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
              > > Hi Mike,
              > >
              > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
              > now.
              > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
              > >
              > > Jon
              >
              > I assume you mean this coin:
              >
              > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
              > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
              >
              > I confess that I am baffled by this one.  I have seen this custard-
              > like texture before, but only on the obverse face.  I had previously
              > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap.  Its presence on
              > both faces is very puzzling.
              >
              > The doubled date is odd, too.  The stronger date, while weak, has
              > sharp outlines.  That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
              > strike.  The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd.  It
              > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised or
              > incuse.
              >
              > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims.  The
              > doubling may be due to some other cause.
              >
              > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              <image.tiff>
              >
              >
              <image.tiff>
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/errorcoininformationexchange/
              >  
              > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > errorcoininformationexchange-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >  
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              >
            • Rafael Delgado
              Could this have anything to do with (grease n metal-dust) dirty dies? Rafael ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/errorcoininformationexchange/ ...
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 4, 2004
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                Could this have anything to do with (grease n' metal-dust)
                dirty dies?
                Rafael


                --- Jon Sullivan <errcoins@...> wrote:

                > Hi Mike,
                >
                > Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of
                > course I know
                > you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I
                > knew you'd have
                > an opinion, which is why I asked :-)
                >
                > Thanks,
                > Jon
                >
                >
                > On Sunday, October 3, 2004, at 08:19 AM, Mike Diamond
                > wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
                > Jon Sullivan
                > > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                > > > Hi Mike,
                > > >
                > > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on
                > eBay right
                > > now.
                > > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it
                > was made?
                > > >
                > > > Jon
                > >
                > > I assume you mean this coin:
                > >
                > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                > > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
                > >
                > > I confess that I am baffled by this one.� I have seen
                > this custard-
                > > like texture before, but only on the obverse face.� I
                > had previously
                > > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap.�
                > Its presence on
                > > both faces is very puzzling.
                > >
                > > The doubled date is odd, too.� The stronger date, while
                > weak, has
                > > sharp outlines.� That's not what you'd expect in a
                > capped die
                > > strike.� The weaker date appears smaller, which is also
                > odd.� It
                > > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date
                > is raised or
                > > incuse.
                > >
                > > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich
                > claims.� The
                > > doubling may be due to some other cause.
                > >
                > > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > <image.tiff>
                > >
                > >
                > <image.tiff>
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > >
                >
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/errorcoininformationexchange/
                > > �
                > > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > >
                > errorcoininformationexchange-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > �
                > > � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                > Terms of Service.
                > >
                >




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              • Mike Diamond
                That s possible but, again, I ve previously only seen this texture associated with the obverse (hammer) die. That suggests a die cap or cap-like obstruction.
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 4, 2004
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                  That's possible but, again, I've previously only seen this texture
                  associated with the obverse (hammer) die. That suggests a die cap or
                  cap-like obstruction. I've also seen apparent shifted cap strikes
                  with this texture, which would again support the die cap
                  interpretation.

                  On the other hand, "grease strikes" are often found on both dies,
                  while I've never seen a coin struck by a die cap on both dies.

                  So I will admit that all my hypotheses are saddled with an
                  unacceptably high degree of uncertainty.

                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael Delgado
                  <my_errors@y...> wrote:
                  > Could this have anything to do with (grease n' metal-dust)
                  > dirty dies?
                  > Rafael
                • Mike Diamond
                  I edged out midnitesurfer for the chance to thoroughly examine this specimen. I hope I can narrow down the possibilities after I get it. I will give you all
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 9, 2004
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                    I edged out midnitesurfer for the chance to thoroughly examine this
                    specimen. I hope I can narrow down the possibilities after I get
                    it. I will give you all a full report next week (or as soon as it
                    arrives).

                    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3933508833

                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                    <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                    >
                    > That's possible but, again, I've previously only seen this texture
                    > associated with the obverse (hammer) die. That suggests a die cap
                    or
                    > cap-like obstruction. I've also seen apparent shifted cap strikes
                    > with this texture, which would again support the die cap
                    > interpretation.
                    >
                    > On the other hand, "grease strikes" are often found on both dies,
                    > while I've never seen a coin struck by a die cap on both dies.
                    >
                    > So I will admit that all my hypotheses are saddled with an
                    > unacceptably high degree of uncertainty.
                    >
                    > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael Delgado
                    > <my_errors@y...> wrote:
                    > > Could this have anything to do with (grease n' metal-dust)
                    > > dirty dies?
                    > > Rafael
                  • Mike Diamond
                    I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833 The last hypothesis I
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 18, 2004
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                      I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture:

                      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833

                      The last hypothesis I introduced appears to be the correct one. It
                      looks like the first strike was normal (or nearly so) and the second
                      strike was between a different set of dies that were covered by die
                      caps or cap-like obstructions. The perfect alignment between the two
                      strikes appears to be coincidental.

                      The coin is expanded to beyond the size of a nickel. The clearer of
                      the two dates (2000) is flattened in a way that can only be
                      accomplished through a second strike. The outer parts of the
                      peripheral letters are clear and reach the rim, despite the
                      significant expansion of the coin. This is also characteristic of a
                      double strike beneath a cap or planchet. Farther toward the center
                      of the coin those same letters are flattened in the same way that the
                      date is. The manner of flattening is very similar to my double
                      struck nickel in which the second strike was through a late-stage die
                      cap.

                      So this coin represents a remarkable series of events.

                      Thanks, Rich!

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                      <errcoins@b...> wrote:

                      > Hi Mike,
                      >
                      > Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I
                      know
                      > you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you'd
                      have
                      > an opinion, which is why I asked :-)
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      > Jon
                    • Mike Diamond
                      As to whether this would qualify as a full sandwich strike on the second strike, that would be iffy. Generally the term sandwich strike is applied to a
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 18, 2004
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                        As to whether this would qualify as a "full sandwich strike" on the
                        second strike, that would be iffy. Generally the term "sandwich
                        strike" is applied to a coin or planchet that is struck between two
                        other coins or planchets. I don't think deteriorated caps or cap-
                        like obstructions qualify.

                        Still, it's a pretty neat set of circumstances.

                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                        <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture:
                        >
                        > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833
                        >
                        > The last hypothesis I introduced appears to be the correct one. It
                        > looks like the first strike was normal (or nearly so) and the
                        second
                        > strike was between a different set of dies that were covered by die
                        > caps or cap-like obstructions. The perfect alignment between the
                        two
                        > strikes appears to be coincidental.
                        >
                        > The coin is expanded to beyond the size of a nickel. The clearer
                        of
                        > the two dates (2000) is flattened in a way that can only be
                        > accomplished through a second strike. The outer parts of the
                        > peripheral letters are clear and reach the rim, despite the
                        > significant expansion of the coin. This is also characteristic of
                        a
                        > double strike beneath a cap or planchet. Farther toward the center
                        > of the coin those same letters are flattened in the same way that
                        the
                        > date is. The manner of flattening is very similar to my double
                        > struck nickel in which the second strike was through a late-stage
                        die
                        > cap.
                        >
                        > So this coin represents a remarkable series of events.
                      • Mike Diamond
                        The perfect alignment between the first and second strike remains disturbing. There is only a 1 in 360 chance that a coin will end up in this orientation when
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
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                          The perfect alignment between the first and second strike remains
                          disturbing. There is only a 1 in 360 chance that a coin will end up
                          in this orientation when shunted to a different striking chamber.
                          Still, all the remaining physical evidence points to this being the
                          case.

                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                          <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                          >
                          > As to whether this would qualify as a "full sandwich strike" on the
                          > second strike, that would be iffy. Generally the term "sandwich
                          > strike" is applied to a coin or planchet that is struck between two
                          > other coins or planchets. I don't think deteriorated caps or cap-
                          > like obstructions qualify.
                          >
                          > Still, it's a pretty neat set of circumstances.
                        • Rich Schemmer
                          Your welcome, Mike I knew this coin would get your attention as It did mine when it was offered to me at the ANA. Thanx Rich Rich Schemmer Error Coins
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
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                            Your welcome, Mike I knew this coin would get your attention as It
                            did mine when it was offered to me at the ANA.
                            Thanx
                            Rich
                            Rich Schemmer Error Coins
                            http://WWW.RichErrors.com/store.php

                            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                            <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture:
                            >
                            > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833
                            >
                            > The last hypothesis I introduced appears to be the correct one. It
                            > looks like the first strike was normal (or nearly so) and the
                            second
                            > strike was between a different set of dies that were covered by die
                            > caps or cap-like obstructions. The perfect alignment between the
                            two
                            > strikes appears to be coincidental.
                            >
                            > The coin is expanded to beyond the size of a nickel. The clearer
                            of
                            > the two dates (2000) is flattened in a way that can only be
                            > accomplished through a second strike. The outer parts of the
                            > peripheral letters are clear and reach the rim, despite the
                            > significant expansion of the coin. This is also characteristic of
                            a
                            > double strike beneath a cap or planchet. Farther toward the center
                            > of the coin those same letters are flattened in the same way that
                            the
                            > date is. The manner of flattening is very similar to my double
                            > struck nickel in which the second strike was through a late-stage
                            die
                            > cap.
                            >
                            > So this coin represents a remarkable series of events.
                            >
                            > Thanks, Rich!
                            >
                            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                            > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Hi Mike,
                            > >
                            > > Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I
                            > know
                            > > you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you'd
                            > have
                            > > an opinion, which is why I asked :-)
                            > >
                            > > Thanks,
                            > > Jon
                          • Mike Diamond
                            It s also possible that the perfect alignment between first and second strikes could be due to an assist from a mischeivous mint worker. Maybe someone just
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
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                              It's also possible that the perfect alignment between first and
                              second strikes could be due to an assist from a mischeivous mint
                              worker. Maybe someone just wanted to see what a struck cent would
                              look like when placed between a pair of die caps. Anything's
                              possible.

                              This is certainly one for the books.

                              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                              <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                              >
                              > The perfect alignment between the first and second strike remains
                              > disturbing. There is only a 1 in 360 chance that a coin will end
                              up
                              > in this orientation when shunted to a different striking chamber.
                              > Still, all the remaining physical evidence points to this being the
                              > case.
                            • Mike Diamond
                              Another neat thing to appreciate is that this coin provides one exception to the rule that you cannot get an enlarged coin that shows expansion of the raised
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
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                                Another neat thing to appreciate is that this coin provides one
                                exception to the rule that you cannot get an enlarged coin that shows
                                expansion of the raised design on both faces.

                                There are lots of "giant coins" out there that show proportional
                                expansion on both faces. These are allegedly hammered between two
                                pieces of leather to acheive this effect.

                                The coin I got from Rich obviously looks nothing like these fakes,
                                except that both faces do show expansion of the design.

                                Any full sandwich strike on a struck coin would also be expected to
                                show expansion of the design on both faces. I haven't seen one yet.
                                I have seen full sandwich strikes with a full brockage on the obverse
                                and an expanded raised design on the reverse. I have one
                                (regrettfully mangled after the strike) and Glen Burger had one. I
                                suspect that if you were able to pry apart some bonded coins, you
                                will find expansion of the raised design of both faces of some of the
                                coins in the stack.

                                I once thought I had a full sandwich strike on an already-struck 2000-
                                D cent. But I now believe that one is a fake.
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