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Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Double strike or broadstrike?

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  • Jon Sullivan
    Hi Mike, Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right now. the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made? Jon ...
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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      Hi Mike,

      Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right now.
      the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?

      Jon


      On Saturday, October 2, 2004, at 11:00 PM, Mike Diamond wrote:

      >
      > I see it now.  I'm not sure what it is.  I doubt it's a letter
      > trace.  I suspect it's a strike-thru error of some kind.  Perhaps
      > it's from an angular bit of coin metal that remained behind in the
      > striking chamber from a previous pile-up or some other other mishap.
      >
      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Johnson"
      > <rdjrich@a...> wrote:
      > >
      > > OK. Added another scan. Brining it up closer, it looks like it
      > could
      > > be an "A" from the reverse. Huh? Probably doesn't mean much any way.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      <image.tiff>
      >
      >
      <image.tiff>
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/errorcoininformationexchange/
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    • Mike Diamond
      ... now. ... I assume you mean this coin: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833 I confess that I am baffled by this one.
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
        <errcoins@b...> wrote:
        > Hi Mike,
        >
        > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
        now.
        > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
        >
        > Jon

        I assume you mean this coin:

        http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
        ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833

        I confess that I am baffled by this one. I have seen this custard-
        like texture before, but only on the obverse face. I had previously
        assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap. Its presence on
        both faces is very puzzling.

        The doubled date is odd, too. The stronger date, while weak, has
        sharp outlines. That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
        strike. The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd. It
        would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised or
        incuse.

        I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims. The
        doubling may be due to some other cause.

        Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
      • Mike Diamond
        It s possible that the custard-like texture on the reverse is from a deteriorated reverse die cap. After all, the coin is broadstruck, so a reverse die cap
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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          It's possible that the custard-like texture on the reverse is from a
          deteriorated reverse die cap. After all, the coin is broadstruck, so
          a reverse die cap could conceivably be thinned to this extent from
          numerous strikes.

          The custard-like texture on the obverse could then be from a late-
          stage obverse die cap that formed at just about the same time as the
          reverse die cap. The doubled date could be from a shift or rotation
          of the obverse die cap just prior to the strike that created this
          coin.

          This hypothesis still does not explain the clear outlines of the
          larger date, or the dramatic difference in size between the two
          dates. But it's the best I can do on short notice.

          If I am correct, then this would be a "sandwich strike" of a sort.
          It's odd that the coin is only slightly expanded, despite the added
          thicknesses on both die faces. Some other things were probably going
          wrong, such as an abnormally great die spacing.

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
          <mdia1@a...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
          > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
          > > Hi Mike,
          > >
          > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
          > now.
          > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
          > >
          > > Jon
          >
          > I assume you mean this coin:
          >
          > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
          > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
          >
          > I confess that I am baffled by this one. I have seen this custard-
          > like texture before, but only on the obverse face. I had
          previously
          > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap. Its presence
          on
          > both faces is very puzzling.
          >
          > The doubled date is odd, too. The stronger date, while weak, has
          > sharp outlines. That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
          > strike. The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd. It
          > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised or
          > incuse.
          >
          > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims. The
          > doubling may be due to some other cause.
          >
          > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
        • Mike Diamond
          I now notice that, although the coin is expanded, the peripheral design elements are present at the very edge of the coin. This is also where they are
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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            I now notice that, although the coin is expanded, the peripheral
            design elements are present at the very edge of the coin. This is
            also where they are clearest and least distorted.

            I may be that this coin IS a double strike and that the first strike
            was perfectly normal. It may have then been kicked into a nearby
            striking chamber in which both dies were covered by deteriorated die
            caps. It was then struck again.

            This would explain the clarity of the peripheral design elements, the
            clarity and flattish appearance of the larger date, the presence of
            peripheral design elements at the outer margin of the coin, and the
            doubling seen on both the obverse and the reverse.

            If this is the case, then the close alignment of first and second
            strikes would be coincidental. Is this too farfetched a
            possibility? I couldn't really say. But I think this fits the facts
            better than my initial guesses.


            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
            <mdia1@a...> wrote:
            >
            > It's possible that the custard-like texture on the reverse is from
            a
            > deteriorated reverse die cap. After all, the coin is broadstruck,
            so
            > a reverse die cap could conceivably be thinned to this extent from
            > numerous strikes.
            >
            > The custard-like texture on the obverse could then be from a late-
            > stage obverse die cap that formed at just about the same time as
            the
            > reverse die cap. The doubled date could be from a shift or
            rotation
            > of the obverse die cap just prior to the strike that created this
            > coin.
            >
            > This hypothesis still does not explain the clear outlines of the
            > larger date, or the dramatic difference in size between the two
            > dates. But it's the best I can do on short notice.
            >
            > If I am correct, then this would be a "sandwich strike" of a sort.
            > It's odd that the coin is only slightly expanded, despite the added
            > thicknesses on both die faces. Some other things were probably
            going
            > wrong, such as an abnormally great die spacing.
            >
            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
            > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
            > >
            > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
            > > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
            > > > Hi Mike,
            > > >
            > > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
            > > now.
            > > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
            > > >
            > > > Jon
            > >
            > > I assume you mean this coin:
            > >
            > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
            > > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
            > >
            > > I confess that I am baffled by this one. I have seen this
            custard-
            > > like texture before, but only on the obverse face. I had
            > previously
            > > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap. Its presence
            > on
            > > both faces is very puzzling.
            > >
            > > The doubled date is odd, too. The stronger date, while weak, has
            > > sharp outlines. That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
            > > strike. The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd. It
            > > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised
            or
            > > incuse.
            > >
            > > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims. The
            > > doubling may be due to some other cause.
            > >
            > > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
          • Mike Diamond
            Such an error would not be wholly unprecedented. I have an in- collar, flipover, double-struck nickel in which the second strike was also a capped die strike.
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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              Such an error would not be wholly unprecedented. I have an in-
              collar, flipover, double-struck nickel in which the second strike was
              also a capped die strike. I got it from Fred Weinberg several years
              ago. He had a second nickel just like it. I just wish I had had the
              presence of mind to purchase both of them.

              On my specimen, I can't tell if the first strike was also a capped
              die strike, as the evidence of the first strike is almost obliterated
              on the reverse face of the second strike.

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
              <mdia1@a...> wrote:

              > I may be that this coin IS a double strike and that the first
              strike
              > was perfectly normal. It may have then been kicked into a nearby
              > striking chamber in which both dies were covered by deteriorated
              die
              > caps. It was then struck again.
            • Jon Sullivan
              Hi Mike, Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I know you can t say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you d have an opinion,
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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                Hi Mike,

                Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I know
                you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you'd have
                an opinion, which is why I asked :-)

                Thanks,
                Jon


                On Sunday, October 3, 2004, at 08:19 AM, Mike Diamond wrote:

                >
                > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                > > Hi Mike,
                > >
                > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
                > now.
                > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
                > >
                > > Jon
                >
                > I assume you mean this coin:
                >
                > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
                >
                > I confess that I am baffled by this one.  I have seen this custard-
                > like texture before, but only on the obverse face.  I had previously
                > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap.  Its presence on
                > both faces is very puzzling.
                >
                > The doubled date is odd, too.  The stronger date, while weak, has
                > sharp outlines.  That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
                > strike.  The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd.  It
                > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised or
                > incuse.
                >
                > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims.  The
                > doubling may be due to some other cause.
                >
                > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                <image.tiff>
                >
                >
                <image.tiff>
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/errorcoininformationexchange/
                >  
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                > errorcoininformationexchange-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >  
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                >
              • Rafael Delgado
                Could this have anything to do with (grease n metal-dust) dirty dies? Rafael ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/errorcoininformationexchange/ ...
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 4, 2004
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                  Could this have anything to do with (grease n' metal-dust)
                  dirty dies?
                  Rafael


                  --- Jon Sullivan <errcoins@...> wrote:

                  > Hi Mike,
                  >
                  > Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of
                  > course I know
                  > you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I
                  > knew you'd have
                  > an opinion, which is why I asked :-)
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  > Jon
                  >
                  >
                  > On Sunday, October 3, 2004, at 08:19 AM, Mike Diamond
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
                  > Jon Sullivan
                  > > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                  > > > Hi Mike,
                  > > >
                  > > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on
                  > eBay right
                  > > now.
                  > > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it
                  > was made?
                  > > >
                  > > > Jon
                  > >
                  > > I assume you mean this coin:
                  > >
                  > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                  > > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
                  > >
                  > > I confess that I am baffled by this one.� I have seen
                  > this custard-
                  > > like texture before, but only on the obverse face.� I
                  > had previously
                  > > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap.�
                  > Its presence on
                  > > both faces is very puzzling.
                  > >
                  > > The doubled date is odd, too.� The stronger date, while
                  > weak, has
                  > > sharp outlines.� That's not what you'd expect in a
                  > capped die
                  > > strike.� The weaker date appears smaller, which is also
                  > odd.� It
                  > > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date
                  > is raised or
                  > > incuse.
                  > >
                  > > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich
                  > claims.� The
                  > > doubling may be due to some other cause.
                  > >
                  > > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > <image.tiff>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > <image.tiff>
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > >
                  >
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/errorcoininformationexchange/
                  > > �
                  > > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > >
                  > errorcoininformationexchange-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > �
                  > > � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                  > Terms of Service.
                  > >
                  >




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                • Mike Diamond
                  That s possible but, again, I ve previously only seen this texture associated with the obverse (hammer) die. That suggests a die cap or cap-like obstruction.
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 4, 2004
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                    That's possible but, again, I've previously only seen this texture
                    associated with the obverse (hammer) die. That suggests a die cap or
                    cap-like obstruction. I've also seen apparent shifted cap strikes
                    with this texture, which would again support the die cap
                    interpretation.

                    On the other hand, "grease strikes" are often found on both dies,
                    while I've never seen a coin struck by a die cap on both dies.

                    So I will admit that all my hypotheses are saddled with an
                    unacceptably high degree of uncertainty.

                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael Delgado
                    <my_errors@y...> wrote:
                    > Could this have anything to do with (grease n' metal-dust)
                    > dirty dies?
                    > Rafael
                  • Mike Diamond
                    I edged out midnitesurfer for the chance to thoroughly examine this specimen. I hope I can narrow down the possibilities after I get it. I will give you all
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 9, 2004
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                      I edged out midnitesurfer for the chance to thoroughly examine this
                      specimen. I hope I can narrow down the possibilities after I get
                      it. I will give you all a full report next week (or as soon as it
                      arrives).

                      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3933508833

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                      <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                      >
                      > That's possible but, again, I've previously only seen this texture
                      > associated with the obverse (hammer) die. That suggests a die cap
                      or
                      > cap-like obstruction. I've also seen apparent shifted cap strikes
                      > with this texture, which would again support the die cap
                      > interpretation.
                      >
                      > On the other hand, "grease strikes" are often found on both dies,
                      > while I've never seen a coin struck by a die cap on both dies.
                      >
                      > So I will admit that all my hypotheses are saddled with an
                      > unacceptably high degree of uncertainty.
                      >
                      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael Delgado
                      > <my_errors@y...> wrote:
                      > > Could this have anything to do with (grease n' metal-dust)
                      > > dirty dies?
                      > > Rafael
                    • Mike Diamond
                      I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833 The last hypothesis I
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 18, 2004
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                        I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture:

                        http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833

                        The last hypothesis I introduced appears to be the correct one. It
                        looks like the first strike was normal (or nearly so) and the second
                        strike was between a different set of dies that were covered by die
                        caps or cap-like obstructions. The perfect alignment between the two
                        strikes appears to be coincidental.

                        The coin is expanded to beyond the size of a nickel. The clearer of
                        the two dates (2000) is flattened in a way that can only be
                        accomplished through a second strike. The outer parts of the
                        peripheral letters are clear and reach the rim, despite the
                        significant expansion of the coin. This is also characteristic of a
                        double strike beneath a cap or planchet. Farther toward the center
                        of the coin those same letters are flattened in the same way that the
                        date is. The manner of flattening is very similar to my double
                        struck nickel in which the second strike was through a late-stage die
                        cap.

                        So this coin represents a remarkable series of events.

                        Thanks, Rich!

                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                        <errcoins@b...> wrote:

                        > Hi Mike,
                        >
                        > Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I
                        know
                        > you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you'd
                        have
                        > an opinion, which is why I asked :-)
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        > Jon
                      • Mike Diamond
                        As to whether this would qualify as a full sandwich strike on the second strike, that would be iffy. Generally the term sandwich strike is applied to a
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 18, 2004
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                          As to whether this would qualify as a "full sandwich strike" on the
                          second strike, that would be iffy. Generally the term "sandwich
                          strike" is applied to a coin or planchet that is struck between two
                          other coins or planchets. I don't think deteriorated caps or cap-
                          like obstructions qualify.

                          Still, it's a pretty neat set of circumstances.

                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                          <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture:
                          >
                          > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833
                          >
                          > The last hypothesis I introduced appears to be the correct one. It
                          > looks like the first strike was normal (or nearly so) and the
                          second
                          > strike was between a different set of dies that were covered by die
                          > caps or cap-like obstructions. The perfect alignment between the
                          two
                          > strikes appears to be coincidental.
                          >
                          > The coin is expanded to beyond the size of a nickel. The clearer
                          of
                          > the two dates (2000) is flattened in a way that can only be
                          > accomplished through a second strike. The outer parts of the
                          > peripheral letters are clear and reach the rim, despite the
                          > significant expansion of the coin. This is also characteristic of
                          a
                          > double strike beneath a cap or planchet. Farther toward the center
                          > of the coin those same letters are flattened in the same way that
                          the
                          > date is. The manner of flattening is very similar to my double
                          > struck nickel in which the second strike was through a late-stage
                          die
                          > cap.
                          >
                          > So this coin represents a remarkable series of events.
                        • Mike Diamond
                          The perfect alignment between the first and second strike remains disturbing. There is only a 1 in 360 chance that a coin will end up in this orientation when
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
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                            The perfect alignment between the first and second strike remains
                            disturbing. There is only a 1 in 360 chance that a coin will end up
                            in this orientation when shunted to a different striking chamber.
                            Still, all the remaining physical evidence points to this being the
                            case.

                            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                            <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                            >
                            > As to whether this would qualify as a "full sandwich strike" on the
                            > second strike, that would be iffy. Generally the term "sandwich
                            > strike" is applied to a coin or planchet that is struck between two
                            > other coins or planchets. I don't think deteriorated caps or cap-
                            > like obstructions qualify.
                            >
                            > Still, it's a pretty neat set of circumstances.
                          • Rich Schemmer
                            Your welcome, Mike I knew this coin would get your attention as It did mine when it was offered to me at the ANA. Thanx Rich Rich Schemmer Error Coins
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
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                              Your welcome, Mike I knew this coin would get your attention as It
                              did mine when it was offered to me at the ANA.
                              Thanx
                              Rich
                              Rich Schemmer Error Coins
                              http://WWW.RichErrors.com/store.php

                              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                              <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture:
                              >
                              > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833
                              >
                              > The last hypothesis I introduced appears to be the correct one. It
                              > looks like the first strike was normal (or nearly so) and the
                              second
                              > strike was between a different set of dies that were covered by die
                              > caps or cap-like obstructions. The perfect alignment between the
                              two
                              > strikes appears to be coincidental.
                              >
                              > The coin is expanded to beyond the size of a nickel. The clearer
                              of
                              > the two dates (2000) is flattened in a way that can only be
                              > accomplished through a second strike. The outer parts of the
                              > peripheral letters are clear and reach the rim, despite the
                              > significant expansion of the coin. This is also characteristic of
                              a
                              > double strike beneath a cap or planchet. Farther toward the center
                              > of the coin those same letters are flattened in the same way that
                              the
                              > date is. The manner of flattening is very similar to my double
                              > struck nickel in which the second strike was through a late-stage
                              die
                              > cap.
                              >
                              > So this coin represents a remarkable series of events.
                              >
                              > Thanks, Rich!
                              >
                              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                              > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > Hi Mike,
                              > >
                              > > Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I
                              > know
                              > > you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you'd
                              > have
                              > > an opinion, which is why I asked :-)
                              > >
                              > > Thanks,
                              > > Jon
                            • Mike Diamond
                              It s also possible that the perfect alignment between first and second strikes could be due to an assist from a mischeivous mint worker. Maybe someone just
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
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                                It's also possible that the perfect alignment between first and
                                second strikes could be due to an assist from a mischeivous mint
                                worker. Maybe someone just wanted to see what a struck cent would
                                look like when placed between a pair of die caps. Anything's
                                possible.

                                This is certainly one for the books.

                                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                >
                                > The perfect alignment between the first and second strike remains
                                > disturbing. There is only a 1 in 360 chance that a coin will end
                                up
                                > in this orientation when shunted to a different striking chamber.
                                > Still, all the remaining physical evidence points to this being the
                                > case.
                              • Mike Diamond
                                Another neat thing to appreciate is that this coin provides one exception to the rule that you cannot get an enlarged coin that shows expansion of the raised
                                Message 15 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
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                                  Another neat thing to appreciate is that this coin provides one
                                  exception to the rule that you cannot get an enlarged coin that shows
                                  expansion of the raised design on both faces.

                                  There are lots of "giant coins" out there that show proportional
                                  expansion on both faces. These are allegedly hammered between two
                                  pieces of leather to acheive this effect.

                                  The coin I got from Rich obviously looks nothing like these fakes,
                                  except that both faces do show expansion of the design.

                                  Any full sandwich strike on a struck coin would also be expected to
                                  show expansion of the design on both faces. I haven't seen one yet.
                                  I have seen full sandwich strikes with a full brockage on the obverse
                                  and an expanded raised design on the reverse. I have one
                                  (regrettfully mangled after the strike) and Glen Burger had one. I
                                  suspect that if you were able to pry apart some bonded coins, you
                                  will find expansion of the raised design of both faces of some of the
                                  coins in the stack.

                                  I once thought I had a full sandwich strike on an already-struck 2000-
                                  D cent. But I now believe that one is a fake.
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