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Re: Double strike or broadstrike?

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  • Rich Johnson
    At the end of photo section is a scan of a nickel size broadstruck?? dime I have. The rim of the cover material is reeded and also folded over the edge. Would
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 1, 2004
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      At the end of photo section is a scan of a nickel size broadstruck??
      dime I have. The rim of the cover material is reeded and also folded
      over the edge. Would it not appear that the coins was struck in
      collar before it was broadstruck? Also notice that the lower bar of
      the one is missing and that the lower part of d-in dime is broken.
      Difficult for me to tell if it was double struck. I wonder what you
      take on this is?

      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
      <mdia1@a...> wrote:
      > If the edge is vertical, or nearly so, and the reeding is
      relatively
      > clear, then I would agree with your diagnosis of this specimen.
      The
      > edge does seem less beveled than most "forced broadstrikes".
      >
      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
      > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > Mike, I read your description of a "forced broadstrike",
      > > and although you might be correct, I should let you know
      > > that there isn't simply a "trace of reeding on the reverse",
      > > but the entire edge of the coin has reeding from the first
      > > strike, or what I consider to be the first strike.
      > >
      > > Fred
    • Mike Diamond
      Yes, this is a perfect example of what some collectors have referred to as forced broadstrikes while others consider them to be double strikes. I myself am a
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 1, 2004
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        Yes, this is a perfect example of what some collectors have referred
        to as "forced broadstrikes" while others consider them to be double
        strikes.

        I myself am a fence-sitter.

        The edge of this coin is beveled and the reeding is smeared. That's
        not what you'd expect to see if the initial strike was a conventional
        in-collar or partial collar strike.

        Again, it's quite possible that this appearance is produced in a
        single strike as the expanding coin grazes the top of the collar
        while, at the same time, depressing it.

        All I know is that there are a lot of similar dimes out there,
        possibly equal in number to conventional broadstrikes.

        While I can't exclude the possibility of a double strike, I always
        prefer the simpler and more prosaic diagnosis.

        Thanks for sharing this image with us, along with your observations.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Johnson"
        <rdjrich@a...> wrote:
        > At the end of photo section is a scan of a nickel size broadstruck??
        > dime I have. The rim of the cover material is reeded and also
        folded
        > over the edge. Would it not appear that the coins was struck in
        > collar before it was broadstruck? Also notice that the lower bar of
        > the one is missing and that the lower part of d-in dime is broken.
        > Difficult for me to tell if it was double struck. I wonder what you
        > take on this is?
      • Rich Johnson
        Added another scan of parts of the broadstrike dime. Has a strange imprint around the date area. A tilted L with a dot in it.. The photo is huge brdll
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 2, 2004
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          Added another scan of parts of the broadstrike dime. Has a strange
          imprint around the date area. A tilted "L" with a dot in it.. The
          photo is huge brdll
          Thaks for you info on first photo, Mike.


          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
          <mdia1@a...> wrote:
          > Yes, this is a perfect example of what some collectors have
          referred
          > to as "forced broadstrikes" while others consider them to be double
          > strikes.
          >
          > I myself am a fence-sitter.
          >
          > The edge of this coin is beveled and the reeding is smeared.
          That's
          > not what you'd expect to see if the initial strike was a
          conventional
          > in-collar or partial collar strike.
          >
          > Again, it's quite possible that this appearance is produced in a
          > single strike as the expanding coin grazes the top of the collar
          > while, at the same time, depressing it.
          >
          > All I know is that there are a lot of similar dimes out there,
          > possibly equal in number to conventional broadstrikes.
          >
          > While I can't exclude the possibility of a double strike, I always
          > prefer the simpler and more prosaic diagnosis.
          >
          > Thanks for sharing this image with us, along with your observations.
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Johnson"
          > <rdjrich@a...> wrote:
          > > At the end of photo section is a scan of a nickel size
          broadstruck??
          > > dime I have. The rim of the cover material is reeded and also
          > folded
          > > over the edge. Would it not appear that the coins was struck in
          > > collar before it was broadstruck? Also notice that the lower bar
          of
          > > the one is missing and that the lower part of d-in dime is
          broken.
          > > Difficult for me to tell if it was double struck. I wonder what
          you
          > > take on this is?
        • Mike Diamond
          ... I don t see the L . Sorry.
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 2, 2004
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            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Johnson"
            <rdjrich@a...> wrote:
            >
            > Added another scan of parts of the broadstrike dime. Has a strange
            > imprint around the date area. A tilted "L" with a dot in it..

            I don't see the "L". Sorry.
          • Rich Johnson
            OK. Added another scan. Brining it up closer, it looks like it could be an A from the reverse. Huh? Probably doesn t mean much any way. ... strange
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 2, 2004
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              OK. Added another scan. Brining it up closer, it looks like it could
              be an "A" from the reverse. Huh? Probably doesn't mean much any way.

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
              <mdia1@a...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Johnson"
              > <rdjrich@a...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Added another scan of parts of the broadstrike dime. Has a
              strange
              > > imprint around the date area. A tilted "L" with a dot in it..
              >
              > I don't see the "L". Sorry.
            • Mike Diamond
              I see it now. I m not sure what it is. I doubt it s a letter trace. I suspect it s a strike-thru error of some kind. Perhaps it s from an angular bit of
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 2, 2004
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                I see it now. I'm not sure what it is. I doubt it's a letter
                trace. I suspect it's a strike-thru error of some kind. Perhaps
                it's from an angular bit of coin metal that remained behind in the
                striking chamber from a previous pile-up or some other other mishap.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Johnson"
                <rdjrich@a...> wrote:
                >
                > OK. Added another scan. Brining it up closer, it looks like it
                could
                > be an "A" from the reverse. Huh? Probably doesn't mean much any way.
              • Jon Sullivan
                Hi Mike, Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right now. the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made? Jon ...
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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                  Hi Mike,

                  Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right now.
                  the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?

                  Jon


                  On Saturday, October 2, 2004, at 11:00 PM, Mike Diamond wrote:

                  >
                  > I see it now.  I'm not sure what it is.  I doubt it's a letter
                  > trace.  I suspect it's a strike-thru error of some kind.  Perhaps
                  > it's from an angular bit of coin metal that remained behind in the
                  > striking chamber from a previous pile-up or some other other mishap.
                  >
                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Johnson"
                  > <rdjrich@a...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > OK. Added another scan. Brining it up closer, it looks like it
                  > could
                  > > be an "A" from the reverse. Huh? Probably doesn't mean much any way.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  <image.tiff>
                  >
                  >
                  <image.tiff>
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/errorcoininformationexchange/
                  >  
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                  > errorcoininformationexchange-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >  
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                  >
                • Mike Diamond
                  ... now. ... I assume you mean this coin: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833 I confess that I am baffled by this one.
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                    <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                    > Hi Mike,
                    >
                    > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
                    now.
                    > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
                    >
                    > Jon

                    I assume you mean this coin:

                    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                    ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833

                    I confess that I am baffled by this one. I have seen this custard-
                    like texture before, but only on the obverse face. I had previously
                    assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap. Its presence on
                    both faces is very puzzling.

                    The doubled date is odd, too. The stronger date, while weak, has
                    sharp outlines. That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
                    strike. The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd. It
                    would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised or
                    incuse.

                    I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims. The
                    doubling may be due to some other cause.

                    Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
                  • Mike Diamond
                    It s possible that the custard-like texture on the reverse is from a deteriorated reverse die cap. After all, the coin is broadstruck, so a reverse die cap
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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                      It's possible that the custard-like texture on the reverse is from a
                      deteriorated reverse die cap. After all, the coin is broadstruck, so
                      a reverse die cap could conceivably be thinned to this extent from
                      numerous strikes.

                      The custard-like texture on the obverse could then be from a late-
                      stage obverse die cap that formed at just about the same time as the
                      reverse die cap. The doubled date could be from a shift or rotation
                      of the obverse die cap just prior to the strike that created this
                      coin.

                      This hypothesis still does not explain the clear outlines of the
                      larger date, or the dramatic difference in size between the two
                      dates. But it's the best I can do on short notice.

                      If I am correct, then this would be a "sandwich strike" of a sort.
                      It's odd that the coin is only slightly expanded, despite the added
                      thicknesses on both die faces. Some other things were probably going
                      wrong, such as an abnormally great die spacing.

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                      <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                      > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                      > > Hi Mike,
                      > >
                      > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
                      > now.
                      > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
                      > >
                      > > Jon
                      >
                      > I assume you mean this coin:
                      >
                      > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                      > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
                      >
                      > I confess that I am baffled by this one. I have seen this custard-
                      > like texture before, but only on the obverse face. I had
                      previously
                      > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap. Its presence
                      on
                      > both faces is very puzzling.
                      >
                      > The doubled date is odd, too. The stronger date, while weak, has
                      > sharp outlines. That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
                      > strike. The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd. It
                      > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised or
                      > incuse.
                      >
                      > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims. The
                      > doubling may be due to some other cause.
                      >
                      > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
                    • Mike Diamond
                      I now notice that, although the coin is expanded, the peripheral design elements are present at the very edge of the coin. This is also where they are
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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                        I now notice that, although the coin is expanded, the peripheral
                        design elements are present at the very edge of the coin. This is
                        also where they are clearest and least distorted.

                        I may be that this coin IS a double strike and that the first strike
                        was perfectly normal. It may have then been kicked into a nearby
                        striking chamber in which both dies were covered by deteriorated die
                        caps. It was then struck again.

                        This would explain the clarity of the peripheral design elements, the
                        clarity and flattish appearance of the larger date, the presence of
                        peripheral design elements at the outer margin of the coin, and the
                        doubling seen on both the obverse and the reverse.

                        If this is the case, then the close alignment of first and second
                        strikes would be coincidental. Is this too farfetched a
                        possibility? I couldn't really say. But I think this fits the facts
                        better than my initial guesses.


                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                        <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                        >
                        > It's possible that the custard-like texture on the reverse is from
                        a
                        > deteriorated reverse die cap. After all, the coin is broadstruck,
                        so
                        > a reverse die cap could conceivably be thinned to this extent from
                        > numerous strikes.
                        >
                        > The custard-like texture on the obverse could then be from a late-
                        > stage obverse die cap that formed at just about the same time as
                        the
                        > reverse die cap. The doubled date could be from a shift or
                        rotation
                        > of the obverse die cap just prior to the strike that created this
                        > coin.
                        >
                        > This hypothesis still does not explain the clear outlines of the
                        > larger date, or the dramatic difference in size between the two
                        > dates. But it's the best I can do on short notice.
                        >
                        > If I am correct, then this would be a "sandwich strike" of a sort.
                        > It's odd that the coin is only slightly expanded, despite the added
                        > thicknesses on both die faces. Some other things were probably
                        going
                        > wrong, such as an abnormally great die spacing.
                        >
                        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                        > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                        > > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                        > > > Hi Mike,
                        > > >
                        > > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
                        > > now.
                        > > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
                        > > >
                        > > > Jon
                        > >
                        > > I assume you mean this coin:
                        > >
                        > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                        > > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
                        > >
                        > > I confess that I am baffled by this one. I have seen this
                        custard-
                        > > like texture before, but only on the obverse face. I had
                        > previously
                        > > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap. Its presence
                        > on
                        > > both faces is very puzzling.
                        > >
                        > > The doubled date is odd, too. The stronger date, while weak, has
                        > > sharp outlines. That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
                        > > strike. The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd. It
                        > > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised
                        or
                        > > incuse.
                        > >
                        > > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims. The
                        > > doubling may be due to some other cause.
                        > >
                        > > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
                      • Mike Diamond
                        Such an error would not be wholly unprecedented. I have an in- collar, flipover, double-struck nickel in which the second strike was also a capped die strike.
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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                          Such an error would not be wholly unprecedented. I have an in-
                          collar, flipover, double-struck nickel in which the second strike was
                          also a capped die strike. I got it from Fred Weinberg several years
                          ago. He had a second nickel just like it. I just wish I had had the
                          presence of mind to purchase both of them.

                          On my specimen, I can't tell if the first strike was also a capped
                          die strike, as the evidence of the first strike is almost obliterated
                          on the reverse face of the second strike.

                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                          <mdia1@a...> wrote:

                          > I may be that this coin IS a double strike and that the first
                          strike
                          > was perfectly normal. It may have then been kicked into a nearby
                          > striking chamber in which both dies were covered by deteriorated
                          die
                          > caps. It was then struck again.
                        • Jon Sullivan
                          Hi Mike, Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I know you can t say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you d have an opinion,
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
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                            Hi Mike,

                            Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I know
                            you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you'd have
                            an opinion, which is why I asked :-)

                            Thanks,
                            Jon


                            On Sunday, October 3, 2004, at 08:19 AM, Mike Diamond wrote:

                            >
                            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                            > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                            > > Hi Mike,
                            > >
                            > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
                            > now.
                            > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
                            > >
                            > > Jon
                            >
                            > I assume you mean this coin:
                            >
                            > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                            > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
                            >
                            > I confess that I am baffled by this one.  I have seen this custard-
                            > like texture before, but only on the obverse face.  I had previously
                            > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap.  Its presence on
                            > both faces is very puzzling.
                            >
                            > The doubled date is odd, too.  The stronger date, while weak, has
                            > sharp outlines.  That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
                            > strike.  The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd.  It
                            > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised or
                            > incuse.
                            >
                            > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims.  The
                            > doubling may be due to some other cause.
                            >
                            > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            <image.tiff>
                            >
                            >
                            <image.tiff>
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/errorcoininformationexchange/
                            >  
                            > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > errorcoininformationexchange-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >  
                            > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                            >
                          • Rafael Delgado
                            Could this have anything to do with (grease n metal-dust) dirty dies? Rafael ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/errorcoininformationexchange/ ...
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 4, 2004
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                              Could this have anything to do with (grease n' metal-dust)
                              dirty dies?
                              Rafael


                              --- Jon Sullivan <errcoins@...> wrote:

                              > Hi Mike,
                              >
                              > Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of
                              > course I know
                              > you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I
                              > knew you'd have
                              > an opinion, which is why I asked :-)
                              >
                              > Thanks,
                              > Jon
                              >
                              >
                              > On Sunday, October 3, 2004, at 08:19 AM, Mike Diamond
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
                              > Jon Sullivan
                              > > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                              > > > Hi Mike,
                              > > >
                              > > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on
                              > eBay right
                              > > now.
                              > > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it
                              > was made?
                              > > >
                              > > > Jon
                              > >
                              > > I assume you mean this coin:
                              > >
                              > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                              > > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
                              > >
                              > > I confess that I am baffled by this one.� I have seen
                              > this custard-
                              > > like texture before, but only on the obverse face.� I
                              > had previously
                              > > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap.�
                              > Its presence on
                              > > both faces is very puzzling.
                              > >
                              > > The doubled date is odd, too.� The stronger date, while
                              > weak, has
                              > > sharp outlines.� That's not what you'd expect in a
                              > capped die
                              > > strike.� The weaker date appears smaller, which is also
                              > odd.� It
                              > > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date
                              > is raised or
                              > > incuse.
                              > >
                              > > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich
                              > claims.� The
                              > > doubling may be due to some other cause.
                              > >
                              > > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > <image.tiff>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > <image.tiff>
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              > >
                              >
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/errorcoininformationexchange/
                              > > �
                              > > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > >
                              > errorcoininformationexchange-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > > �
                              > > � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                              > Terms of Service.
                              > >
                              >




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                            • Mike Diamond
                              That s possible but, again, I ve previously only seen this texture associated with the obverse (hammer) die. That suggests a die cap or cap-like obstruction.
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 4, 2004
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                                That's possible but, again, I've previously only seen this texture
                                associated with the obverse (hammer) die. That suggests a die cap or
                                cap-like obstruction. I've also seen apparent shifted cap strikes
                                with this texture, which would again support the die cap
                                interpretation.

                                On the other hand, "grease strikes" are often found on both dies,
                                while I've never seen a coin struck by a die cap on both dies.

                                So I will admit that all my hypotheses are saddled with an
                                unacceptably high degree of uncertainty.

                                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael Delgado
                                <my_errors@y...> wrote:
                                > Could this have anything to do with (grease n' metal-dust)
                                > dirty dies?
                                > Rafael
                              • Mike Diamond
                                I edged out midnitesurfer for the chance to thoroughly examine this specimen. I hope I can narrow down the possibilities after I get it. I will give you all
                                Message 15 of 25 , Oct 9, 2004
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                                  I edged out midnitesurfer for the chance to thoroughly examine this
                                  specimen. I hope I can narrow down the possibilities after I get
                                  it. I will give you all a full report next week (or as soon as it
                                  arrives).

                                  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3933508833

                                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                  <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > That's possible but, again, I've previously only seen this texture
                                  > associated with the obverse (hammer) die. That suggests a die cap
                                  or
                                  > cap-like obstruction. I've also seen apparent shifted cap strikes
                                  > with this texture, which would again support the die cap
                                  > interpretation.
                                  >
                                  > On the other hand, "grease strikes" are often found on both dies,
                                  > while I've never seen a coin struck by a die cap on both dies.
                                  >
                                  > So I will admit that all my hypotheses are saddled with an
                                  > unacceptably high degree of uncertainty.
                                  >
                                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael Delgado
                                  > <my_errors@y...> wrote:
                                  > > Could this have anything to do with (grease n' metal-dust)
                                  > > dirty dies?
                                  > > Rafael
                                • Mike Diamond
                                  I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833 The last hypothesis I
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Oct 18, 2004
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                                    I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture:

                                    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833

                                    The last hypothesis I introduced appears to be the correct one. It
                                    looks like the first strike was normal (or nearly so) and the second
                                    strike was between a different set of dies that were covered by die
                                    caps or cap-like obstructions. The perfect alignment between the two
                                    strikes appears to be coincidental.

                                    The coin is expanded to beyond the size of a nickel. The clearer of
                                    the two dates (2000) is flattened in a way that can only be
                                    accomplished through a second strike. The outer parts of the
                                    peripheral letters are clear and reach the rim, despite the
                                    significant expansion of the coin. This is also characteristic of a
                                    double strike beneath a cap or planchet. Farther toward the center
                                    of the coin those same letters are flattened in the same way that the
                                    date is. The manner of flattening is very similar to my double
                                    struck nickel in which the second strike was through a late-stage die
                                    cap.

                                    So this coin represents a remarkable series of events.

                                    Thanks, Rich!

                                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                                    <errcoins@b...> wrote:

                                    > Hi Mike,
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I
                                    know
                                    > you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you'd
                                    have
                                    > an opinion, which is why I asked :-)
                                    >
                                    > Thanks,
                                    > Jon
                                  • Mike Diamond
                                    As to whether this would qualify as a full sandwich strike on the second strike, that would be iffy. Generally the term sandwich strike is applied to a
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Oct 18, 2004
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                                      As to whether this would qualify as a "full sandwich strike" on the
                                      second strike, that would be iffy. Generally the term "sandwich
                                      strike" is applied to a coin or planchet that is struck between two
                                      other coins or planchets. I don't think deteriorated caps or cap-
                                      like obstructions qualify.

                                      Still, it's a pretty neat set of circumstances.

                                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                      <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture:
                                      >
                                      > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833
                                      >
                                      > The last hypothesis I introduced appears to be the correct one. It
                                      > looks like the first strike was normal (or nearly so) and the
                                      second
                                      > strike was between a different set of dies that were covered by die
                                      > caps or cap-like obstructions. The perfect alignment between the
                                      two
                                      > strikes appears to be coincidental.
                                      >
                                      > The coin is expanded to beyond the size of a nickel. The clearer
                                      of
                                      > the two dates (2000) is flattened in a way that can only be
                                      > accomplished through a second strike. The outer parts of the
                                      > peripheral letters are clear and reach the rim, despite the
                                      > significant expansion of the coin. This is also characteristic of
                                      a
                                      > double strike beneath a cap or planchet. Farther toward the center
                                      > of the coin those same letters are flattened in the same way that
                                      the
                                      > date is. The manner of flattening is very similar to my double
                                      > struck nickel in which the second strike was through a late-stage
                                      die
                                      > cap.
                                      >
                                      > So this coin represents a remarkable series of events.
                                    • Mike Diamond
                                      The perfect alignment between the first and second strike remains disturbing. There is only a 1 in 360 chance that a coin will end up in this orientation when
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
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                                        The perfect alignment between the first and second strike remains
                                        disturbing. There is only a 1 in 360 chance that a coin will end up
                                        in this orientation when shunted to a different striking chamber.
                                        Still, all the remaining physical evidence points to this being the
                                        case.

                                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                        <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > As to whether this would qualify as a "full sandwich strike" on the
                                        > second strike, that would be iffy. Generally the term "sandwich
                                        > strike" is applied to a coin or planchet that is struck between two
                                        > other coins or planchets. I don't think deteriorated caps or cap-
                                        > like obstructions qualify.
                                        >
                                        > Still, it's a pretty neat set of circumstances.
                                      • Rich Schemmer
                                        Your welcome, Mike I knew this coin would get your attention as It did mine when it was offered to me at the ANA. Thanx Rich Rich Schemmer Error Coins
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
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                                          Your welcome, Mike I knew this coin would get your attention as It
                                          did mine when it was offered to me at the ANA.
                                          Thanx
                                          Rich
                                          Rich Schemmer Error Coins
                                          http://WWW.RichErrors.com/store.php

                                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                          <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture:
                                          >
                                          > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833
                                          >
                                          > The last hypothesis I introduced appears to be the correct one. It
                                          > looks like the first strike was normal (or nearly so) and the
                                          second
                                          > strike was between a different set of dies that were covered by die
                                          > caps or cap-like obstructions. The perfect alignment between the
                                          two
                                          > strikes appears to be coincidental.
                                          >
                                          > The coin is expanded to beyond the size of a nickel. The clearer
                                          of
                                          > the two dates (2000) is flattened in a way that can only be
                                          > accomplished through a second strike. The outer parts of the
                                          > peripheral letters are clear and reach the rim, despite the
                                          > significant expansion of the coin. This is also characteristic of
                                          a
                                          > double strike beneath a cap or planchet. Farther toward the center
                                          > of the coin those same letters are flattened in the same way that
                                          the
                                          > date is. The manner of flattening is very similar to my double
                                          > struck nickel in which the second strike was through a late-stage
                                          die
                                          > cap.
                                          >
                                          > So this coin represents a remarkable series of events.
                                          >
                                          > Thanks, Rich!
                                          >
                                          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                                          > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Hi Mike,
                                          > >
                                          > > Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I
                                          > know
                                          > > you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you'd
                                          > have
                                          > > an opinion, which is why I asked :-)
                                          > >
                                          > > Thanks,
                                          > > Jon
                                        • Mike Diamond
                                          It s also possible that the perfect alignment between first and second strikes could be due to an assist from a mischeivous mint worker. Maybe someone just
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
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                                            It's also possible that the perfect alignment between first and
                                            second strikes could be due to an assist from a mischeivous mint
                                            worker. Maybe someone just wanted to see what a struck cent would
                                            look like when placed between a pair of die caps. Anything's
                                            possible.

                                            This is certainly one for the books.

                                            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                            <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > The perfect alignment between the first and second strike remains
                                            > disturbing. There is only a 1 in 360 chance that a coin will end
                                            up
                                            > in this orientation when shunted to a different striking chamber.
                                            > Still, all the remaining physical evidence points to this being the
                                            > case.
                                          • Mike Diamond
                                            Another neat thing to appreciate is that this coin provides one exception to the rule that you cannot get an enlarged coin that shows expansion of the raised
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
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                                              Another neat thing to appreciate is that this coin provides one
                                              exception to the rule that you cannot get an enlarged coin that shows
                                              expansion of the raised design on both faces.

                                              There are lots of "giant coins" out there that show proportional
                                              expansion on both faces. These are allegedly hammered between two
                                              pieces of leather to acheive this effect.

                                              The coin I got from Rich obviously looks nothing like these fakes,
                                              except that both faces do show expansion of the design.

                                              Any full sandwich strike on a struck coin would also be expected to
                                              show expansion of the design on both faces. I haven't seen one yet.
                                              I have seen full sandwich strikes with a full brockage on the obverse
                                              and an expanded raised design on the reverse. I have one
                                              (regrettfully mangled after the strike) and Glen Burger had one. I
                                              suspect that if you were able to pry apart some bonded coins, you
                                              will find expansion of the raised design of both faces of some of the
                                              coins in the stack.

                                              I once thought I had a full sandwich strike on an already-struck 2000-
                                              D cent. But I now believe that one is a fake.
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