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Double strike or broadstrike?

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  • Mike Diamond
    Here s a coin that Fred Weinberg is identifying as a centered double strike: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&category=524&item=3933151053 Others
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 29 3:27 PM
      Here's a coin that Fred Weinberg is identifying as a centered double
      strike:

      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
      ViewItem&category=524&item=3933151053

      Others identify them as "forced broadstrikes".

      I'm agnostic on the issue. The thing about these coins is that,
      while they do feature a trace of reeding on the reverse face, you're
      not looking at a typical partial collar edge.

      Most of these errors show a beveled edge leading to the reeding
      trace. A conventional partial collar should show a well-
      defined "step" on the edge.

      I have seen undoubted double strikes in which the first strike was a
      partial collar and the second strike is out-of-collar. The step is
      unaffected and certainly does not assume a beveled shape.

      I believe that it's quite possible for this effect to develop if an
      expanding coin makes transient contact with a collapsing collar.

      Just to be on the safe side, I refer to all errors similar to Fred's
      coin as broadstrikes or "forced broadstrikes".
    • fred_weinberg
      Mike, I read your description of a forced broadstrike , and although you might be correct, I should let you know that there isn t simply a trace of reeding
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 29 3:47 PM
        Mike, I read your description of a "forced broadstrike",
        and although you might be correct, I should let you know
        that there isn't simply a "trace of reeding on the reverse",
        but the entire edge of the coin has reeding from the first
        strike, or what I consider to be the first strike.

        Fred


        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
        <mdia1@a...> wrote:
        > Here's a coin that Fred Weinberg is identifying as a centered
        double
        > strike:
        >
        > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
        > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933151053
        >
        > Others identify them as "forced broadstrikes".
        >
        > I'm agnostic on the issue. The thing about these coins is that,
        > while they do feature a trace of reeding on the reverse face,
        you're
        > not looking at a typical partial collar edge.
        >
        > Most of these errors show a beveled edge leading to the reeding
        > trace. A conventional partial collar should show a well-
        > defined "step" on the edge.
        >
        > I have seen undoubted double strikes in which the first strike was
        a
        > partial collar and the second strike is out-of-collar. The step
        is
        > unaffected and certainly does not assume a beveled shape.
        >
        > I believe that it's quite possible for this effect to develop if
        an
        > expanding coin makes transient contact with a collapsing collar.
        >
        > Just to be on the safe side, I refer to all errors similar to
        Fred's
        > coin as broadstrikes or "forced broadstrikes".
      • Mike Diamond
        Many forced broadstrikes show smeared reeding on the beveled surface. That s quite different from the clear, vertical reeding of a partial collar error. The
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 29 7:34 PM
          Many "forced broadstrikes' show smeared reeding on the beveled
          surface. That's quite different from the clear, vertical reeding of
          a partial collar error.

          The smeared reeding could also be caused by contact with a collapsing
          collar in the course of a single strike.

          The large number of broadstruck coins with beveled edges and smeared
          reeding (we've both seen scads of them) would alone indicate that
          we're probably not dealing with double strikes. It is also the case
          in many specimens that you can see a transition from beveled, smeared
          reeding to a plain edge -- another clue that we're probably not
          dealing with a double strike.

          As I said, I'm not committing myself to one interpretation or the
          other, just that it's always wise (in my opinion) to opt for the
          humbler scenario.

          I would need to see a conventional partial collar edge, or an edge
          with conventional vertical reeding, before I would confidently
          diagnose a double strike in a broadstruck coin.

          You are naturally free to disagree.

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > Mike, I read your description of a "forced broadstrike",
          > and although you might be correct, I should let you know
          > that there isn't simply a "trace of reeding on the reverse",
          > but the entire edge of the coin has reeding from the first
          > strike, or what I consider to be the first strike.
          >
          > Fred
          >
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
          > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
          > > Here's a coin that Fred Weinberg is identifying as a centered
          > double
          > > strike:
          > >
          > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
          > > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933151053
          > >
          > > Others identify them as "forced broadstrikes".
          > >
          > > I'm agnostic on the issue. The thing about these coins is that,
          > > while they do feature a trace of reeding on the reverse face,
          > you're
          > > not looking at a typical partial collar edge.
          > >
          > > Most of these errors show a beveled edge leading to the reeding
          > > trace. A conventional partial collar should show a well-
          > > defined "step" on the edge.
          > >
          > > I have seen undoubted double strikes in which the first strike
          was
          > a
          > > partial collar and the second strike is out-of-collar. The step
          > is
          > > unaffected and certainly does not assume a beveled shape.
          > >
          > > I believe that it's quite possible for this effect to develop if
          > an
          > > expanding coin makes transient contact with a collapsing collar.
          > >
          > > Just to be on the safe side, I refer to all errors similar to
          > Fred's
          > > coin as broadstrikes or "forced broadstrikes".
        • Mike Diamond
          If the edge is vertical, or nearly so, and the reeding is relatively clear, then I would agree with your diagnosis of this specimen. The edge does seem less
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 29 7:41 PM
            If the edge is vertical, or nearly so, and the reeding is relatively
            clear, then I would agree with your diagnosis of this specimen. The
            edge does seem less beveled than most "forced broadstrikes".

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > Mike, I read your description of a "forced broadstrike",
            > and although you might be correct, I should let you know
            > that there isn't simply a "trace of reeding on the reverse",
            > but the entire edge of the coin has reeding from the first
            > strike, or what I consider to be the first strike.
            >
            > Fred
          • Rich Johnson
            At the end of photo section is a scan of a nickel size broadstruck?? dime I have. The rim of the cover material is reeded and also folded over the edge. Would
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 1, 2004
              At the end of photo section is a scan of a nickel size broadstruck??
              dime I have. The rim of the cover material is reeded and also folded
              over the edge. Would it not appear that the coins was struck in
              collar before it was broadstruck? Also notice that the lower bar of
              the one is missing and that the lower part of d-in dime is broken.
              Difficult for me to tell if it was double struck. I wonder what you
              take on this is?

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
              <mdia1@a...> wrote:
              > If the edge is vertical, or nearly so, and the reeding is
              relatively
              > clear, then I would agree with your diagnosis of this specimen.
              The
              > edge does seem less beveled than most "forced broadstrikes".
              >
              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, fred_weinberg
              > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > > Mike, I read your description of a "forced broadstrike",
              > > and although you might be correct, I should let you know
              > > that there isn't simply a "trace of reeding on the reverse",
              > > but the entire edge of the coin has reeding from the first
              > > strike, or what I consider to be the first strike.
              > >
              > > Fred
            • Mike Diamond
              Yes, this is a perfect example of what some collectors have referred to as forced broadstrikes while others consider them to be double strikes. I myself am a
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 1, 2004
                Yes, this is a perfect example of what some collectors have referred
                to as "forced broadstrikes" while others consider them to be double
                strikes.

                I myself am a fence-sitter.

                The edge of this coin is beveled and the reeding is smeared. That's
                not what you'd expect to see if the initial strike was a conventional
                in-collar or partial collar strike.

                Again, it's quite possible that this appearance is produced in a
                single strike as the expanding coin grazes the top of the collar
                while, at the same time, depressing it.

                All I know is that there are a lot of similar dimes out there,
                possibly equal in number to conventional broadstrikes.

                While I can't exclude the possibility of a double strike, I always
                prefer the simpler and more prosaic diagnosis.

                Thanks for sharing this image with us, along with your observations.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Johnson"
                <rdjrich@a...> wrote:
                > At the end of photo section is a scan of a nickel size broadstruck??
                > dime I have. The rim of the cover material is reeded and also
                folded
                > over the edge. Would it not appear that the coins was struck in
                > collar before it was broadstruck? Also notice that the lower bar of
                > the one is missing and that the lower part of d-in dime is broken.
                > Difficult for me to tell if it was double struck. I wonder what you
                > take on this is?
              • Rich Johnson
                Added another scan of parts of the broadstrike dime. Has a strange imprint around the date area. A tilted L with a dot in it.. The photo is huge brdll
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 2, 2004
                  Added another scan of parts of the broadstrike dime. Has a strange
                  imprint around the date area. A tilted "L" with a dot in it.. The
                  photo is huge brdll
                  Thaks for you info on first photo, Mike.


                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                  <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                  > Yes, this is a perfect example of what some collectors have
                  referred
                  > to as "forced broadstrikes" while others consider them to be double
                  > strikes.
                  >
                  > I myself am a fence-sitter.
                  >
                  > The edge of this coin is beveled and the reeding is smeared.
                  That's
                  > not what you'd expect to see if the initial strike was a
                  conventional
                  > in-collar or partial collar strike.
                  >
                  > Again, it's quite possible that this appearance is produced in a
                  > single strike as the expanding coin grazes the top of the collar
                  > while, at the same time, depressing it.
                  >
                  > All I know is that there are a lot of similar dimes out there,
                  > possibly equal in number to conventional broadstrikes.
                  >
                  > While I can't exclude the possibility of a double strike, I always
                  > prefer the simpler and more prosaic diagnosis.
                  >
                  > Thanks for sharing this image with us, along with your observations.
                  >
                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Johnson"
                  > <rdjrich@a...> wrote:
                  > > At the end of photo section is a scan of a nickel size
                  broadstruck??
                  > > dime I have. The rim of the cover material is reeded and also
                  > folded
                  > > over the edge. Would it not appear that the coins was struck in
                  > > collar before it was broadstruck? Also notice that the lower bar
                  of
                  > > the one is missing and that the lower part of d-in dime is
                  broken.
                  > > Difficult for me to tell if it was double struck. I wonder what
                  you
                  > > take on this is?
                • Mike Diamond
                  ... I don t see the L . Sorry.
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 2, 2004
                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Johnson"
                    <rdjrich@a...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Added another scan of parts of the broadstrike dime. Has a strange
                    > imprint around the date area. A tilted "L" with a dot in it..

                    I don't see the "L". Sorry.
                  • Rich Johnson
                    OK. Added another scan. Brining it up closer, it looks like it could be an A from the reverse. Huh? Probably doesn t mean much any way. ... strange
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 2, 2004
                      OK. Added another scan. Brining it up closer, it looks like it could
                      be an "A" from the reverse. Huh? Probably doesn't mean much any way.

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                      <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Johnson"
                      > <rdjrich@a...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Added another scan of parts of the broadstrike dime. Has a
                      strange
                      > > imprint around the date area. A tilted "L" with a dot in it..
                      >
                      > I don't see the "L". Sorry.
                    • Mike Diamond
                      I see it now. I m not sure what it is. I doubt it s a letter trace. I suspect it s a strike-thru error of some kind. Perhaps it s from an angular bit of
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 2, 2004
                        I see it now. I'm not sure what it is. I doubt it's a letter
                        trace. I suspect it's a strike-thru error of some kind. Perhaps
                        it's from an angular bit of coin metal that remained behind in the
                        striking chamber from a previous pile-up or some other other mishap.

                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Johnson"
                        <rdjrich@a...> wrote:
                        >
                        > OK. Added another scan. Brining it up closer, it looks like it
                        could
                        > be an "A" from the reverse. Huh? Probably doesn't mean much any way.
                      • Jon Sullivan
                        Hi Mike, Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right now. the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made? Jon ...
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
                          Hi Mike,

                          Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right now.
                          the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?

                          Jon


                          On Saturday, October 2, 2004, at 11:00 PM, Mike Diamond wrote:

                          >
                          > I see it now.  I'm not sure what it is.  I doubt it's a letter
                          > trace.  I suspect it's a strike-thru error of some kind.  Perhaps
                          > it's from an angular bit of coin metal that remained behind in the
                          > striking chamber from a previous pile-up or some other other mishap.
                          >
                          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Johnson"
                          > <rdjrich@a...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > OK. Added another scan. Brining it up closer, it looks like it
                          > could
                          > > be an "A" from the reverse. Huh? Probably doesn't mean much any way.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          <image.tiff>
                          >
                          >
                          <image.tiff>
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/errorcoininformationexchange/
                          >  
                          > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                          >  
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                          >
                        • Mike Diamond
                          ... now. ... I assume you mean this coin: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833 I confess that I am baffled by this one.
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
                            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                            <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                            > Hi Mike,
                            >
                            > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
                            now.
                            > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
                            >
                            > Jon

                            I assume you mean this coin:

                            http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                            ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833

                            I confess that I am baffled by this one. I have seen this custard-
                            like texture before, but only on the obverse face. I had previously
                            assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap. Its presence on
                            both faces is very puzzling.

                            The doubled date is odd, too. The stronger date, while weak, has
                            sharp outlines. That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
                            strike. The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd. It
                            would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised or
                            incuse.

                            I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims. The
                            doubling may be due to some other cause.

                            Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
                          • Mike Diamond
                            It s possible that the custard-like texture on the reverse is from a deteriorated reverse die cap. After all, the coin is broadstruck, so a reverse die cap
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
                              It's possible that the custard-like texture on the reverse is from a
                              deteriorated reverse die cap. After all, the coin is broadstruck, so
                              a reverse die cap could conceivably be thinned to this extent from
                              numerous strikes.

                              The custard-like texture on the obverse could then be from a late-
                              stage obverse die cap that formed at just about the same time as the
                              reverse die cap. The doubled date could be from a shift or rotation
                              of the obverse die cap just prior to the strike that created this
                              coin.

                              This hypothesis still does not explain the clear outlines of the
                              larger date, or the dramatic difference in size between the two
                              dates. But it's the best I can do on short notice.

                              If I am correct, then this would be a "sandwich strike" of a sort.
                              It's odd that the coin is only slightly expanded, despite the added
                              thicknesses on both die faces. Some other things were probably going
                              wrong, such as an abnormally great die spacing.

                              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                              <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                              > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                              > > Hi Mike,
                              > >
                              > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
                              > now.
                              > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
                              > >
                              > > Jon
                              >
                              > I assume you mean this coin:
                              >
                              > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                              > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
                              >
                              > I confess that I am baffled by this one. I have seen this custard-
                              > like texture before, but only on the obverse face. I had
                              previously
                              > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap. Its presence
                              on
                              > both faces is very puzzling.
                              >
                              > The doubled date is odd, too. The stronger date, while weak, has
                              > sharp outlines. That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
                              > strike. The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd. It
                              > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised or
                              > incuse.
                              >
                              > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims. The
                              > doubling may be due to some other cause.
                              >
                              > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
                            • Mike Diamond
                              I now notice that, although the coin is expanded, the peripheral design elements are present at the very edge of the coin. This is also where they are
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
                                I now notice that, although the coin is expanded, the peripheral
                                design elements are present at the very edge of the coin. This is
                                also where they are clearest and least distorted.

                                I may be that this coin IS a double strike and that the first strike
                                was perfectly normal. It may have then been kicked into a nearby
                                striking chamber in which both dies were covered by deteriorated die
                                caps. It was then struck again.

                                This would explain the clarity of the peripheral design elements, the
                                clarity and flattish appearance of the larger date, the presence of
                                peripheral design elements at the outer margin of the coin, and the
                                doubling seen on both the obverse and the reverse.

                                If this is the case, then the close alignment of first and second
                                strikes would be coincidental. Is this too farfetched a
                                possibility? I couldn't really say. But I think this fits the facts
                                better than my initial guesses.


                                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                >
                                > It's possible that the custard-like texture on the reverse is from
                                a
                                > deteriorated reverse die cap. After all, the coin is broadstruck,
                                so
                                > a reverse die cap could conceivably be thinned to this extent from
                                > numerous strikes.
                                >
                                > The custard-like texture on the obverse could then be from a late-
                                > stage obverse die cap that formed at just about the same time as
                                the
                                > reverse die cap. The doubled date could be from a shift or
                                rotation
                                > of the obverse die cap just prior to the strike that created this
                                > coin.
                                >
                                > This hypothesis still does not explain the clear outlines of the
                                > larger date, or the dramatic difference in size between the two
                                > dates. But it's the best I can do on short notice.
                                >
                                > If I am correct, then this would be a "sandwich strike" of a sort.
                                > It's odd that the coin is only slightly expanded, despite the added
                                > thicknesses on both die faces. Some other things were probably
                                going
                                > wrong, such as an abnormally great die spacing.
                                >
                                > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                                > > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                                > > > Hi Mike,
                                > > >
                                > > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
                                > > now.
                                > > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
                                > > >
                                > > > Jon
                                > >
                                > > I assume you mean this coin:
                                > >
                                > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                > > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
                                > >
                                > > I confess that I am baffled by this one. I have seen this
                                custard-
                                > > like texture before, but only on the obverse face. I had
                                > previously
                                > > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap. Its presence
                                > on
                                > > both faces is very puzzling.
                                > >
                                > > The doubled date is odd, too. The stronger date, while weak, has
                                > > sharp outlines. That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
                                > > strike. The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd. It
                                > > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised
                                or
                                > > incuse.
                                > >
                                > > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims. The
                                > > doubling may be due to some other cause.
                                > >
                                > > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
                              • Mike Diamond
                                Such an error would not be wholly unprecedented. I have an in- collar, flipover, double-struck nickel in which the second strike was also a capped die strike.
                                Message 15 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
                                  Such an error would not be wholly unprecedented. I have an in-
                                  collar, flipover, double-struck nickel in which the second strike was
                                  also a capped die strike. I got it from Fred Weinberg several years
                                  ago. He had a second nickel just like it. I just wish I had had the
                                  presence of mind to purchase both of them.

                                  On my specimen, I can't tell if the first strike was also a capped
                                  die strike, as the evidence of the first strike is almost obliterated
                                  on the reverse face of the second strike.

                                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                  <mdia1@a...> wrote:

                                  > I may be that this coin IS a double strike and that the first
                                  strike
                                  > was perfectly normal. It may have then been kicked into a nearby
                                  > striking chamber in which both dies were covered by deteriorated
                                  die
                                  > caps. It was then struck again.
                                • Jon Sullivan
                                  Hi Mike, Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I know you can t say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you d have an opinion,
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Oct 3, 2004
                                    Hi Mike,

                                    Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I know
                                    you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you'd have
                                    an opinion, which is why I asked :-)

                                    Thanks,
                                    Jon


                                    On Sunday, October 3, 2004, at 08:19 AM, Mike Diamond wrote:

                                    >
                                    > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                                    > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                                    > > Hi Mike,
                                    > >
                                    > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on eBay right
                                    > now.
                                    > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it was made?
                                    > >
                                    > > Jon
                                    >
                                    > I assume you mean this coin:
                                    >
                                    > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                    > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
                                    >
                                    > I confess that I am baffled by this one.  I have seen this custard-
                                    > like texture before, but only on the obverse face.  I had previously
                                    > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap.  Its presence on
                                    > both faces is very puzzling.
                                    >
                                    > The doubled date is odd, too.  The stronger date, while weak, has
                                    > sharp outlines.  That's not what you'd expect in a capped die
                                    > strike.  The weaker date appears smaller, which is also odd.  It
                                    > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date is raised or
                                    > incuse.
                                    >
                                    > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich claims.  The
                                    > doubling may be due to some other cause.
                                    >
                                    > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    <image.tiff>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    <image.tiff>
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                  • Rafael Delgado
                                    Could this have anything to do with (grease n metal-dust) dirty dies? Rafael ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/errorcoininformationexchange/ ...
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Oct 4, 2004
                                      Could this have anything to do with (grease n' metal-dust)
                                      dirty dies?
                                      Rafael


                                      --- Jon Sullivan <errcoins@...> wrote:

                                      > Hi Mike,
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of
                                      > course I know
                                      > you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I
                                      > knew you'd have
                                      > an opinion, which is why I asked :-)
                                      >
                                      > Thanks,
                                      > Jon
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Sunday, October 3, 2004, at 08:19 AM, Mike Diamond
                                      > wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
                                      > Jon Sullivan
                                      > > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                                      > > > Hi Mike,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Did you see the cent strike through that Rich has on
                                      > eBay right
                                      > > now.
                                      > > > the one which is doubled-sided? Any idea as to how it
                                      > was made?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Jon
                                      > >
                                      > > I assume you mean this coin:
                                      > >
                                      > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                      > > ViewItem&category=524&item=3933508833
                                      > >
                                      > > I confess that I am baffled by this one.� I have seen
                                      > this custard-
                                      > > like texture before, but only on the obverse face.� I
                                      > had previously
                                      > > assumed that it was from an oddly wrinkled die cap.�
                                      > Its presence on
                                      > > both faces is very puzzling.
                                      > >
                                      > > The doubled date is odd, too.� The stronger date, while
                                      > weak, has
                                      > > sharp outlines.� That's not what you'd expect in a
                                      > capped die
                                      > > strike.� The weaker date appears smaller, which is also
                                      > odd.� It
                                      > > would be interesting to hear whether the smaller date
                                      > is raised or
                                      > > incuse.
                                      > >
                                      > > I don't know if the cent is double-struck, as Rich
                                      > claims.� The
                                      > > doubling may be due to some other cause.
                                      > >
                                      > > Whatever it is, it is fascinating.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > <image.tiff>
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > <image.tiff>
                                      > >
                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >
                                      > > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                      > >
                                      >
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                                      > > �
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                                      >




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                                    • Mike Diamond
                                      That s possible but, again, I ve previously only seen this texture associated with the obverse (hammer) die. That suggests a die cap or cap-like obstruction.
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Oct 4, 2004
                                        That's possible but, again, I've previously only seen this texture
                                        associated with the obverse (hammer) die. That suggests a die cap or
                                        cap-like obstruction. I've also seen apparent shifted cap strikes
                                        with this texture, which would again support the die cap
                                        interpretation.

                                        On the other hand, "grease strikes" are often found on both dies,
                                        while I've never seen a coin struck by a die cap on both dies.

                                        So I will admit that all my hypotheses are saddled with an
                                        unacceptably high degree of uncertainty.

                                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael Delgado
                                        <my_errors@y...> wrote:
                                        > Could this have anything to do with (grease n' metal-dust)
                                        > dirty dies?
                                        > Rafael
                                      • Mike Diamond
                                        I edged out midnitesurfer for the chance to thoroughly examine this specimen. I hope I can narrow down the possibilities after I get it. I will give you all
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Oct 9, 2004
                                          I edged out midnitesurfer for the chance to thoroughly examine this
                                          specimen. I hope I can narrow down the possibilities after I get
                                          it. I will give you all a full report next week (or as soon as it
                                          arrives).

                                          http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3933508833

                                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                          <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > That's possible but, again, I've previously only seen this texture
                                          > associated with the obverse (hammer) die. That suggests a die cap
                                          or
                                          > cap-like obstruction. I've also seen apparent shifted cap strikes
                                          > with this texture, which would again support the die cap
                                          > interpretation.
                                          >
                                          > On the other hand, "grease strikes" are often found on both dies,
                                          > while I've never seen a coin struck by a die cap on both dies.
                                          >
                                          > So I will admit that all my hypotheses are saddled with an
                                          > unacceptably high degree of uncertainty.
                                          >
                                          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael Delgado
                                          > <my_errors@y...> wrote:
                                          > > Could this have anything to do with (grease n' metal-dust)
                                          > > dirty dies?
                                          > > Rafael
                                        • Mike Diamond
                                          I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833 The last hypothesis I
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Oct 18, 2004
                                            I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture:

                                            http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833

                                            The last hypothesis I introduced appears to be the correct one. It
                                            looks like the first strike was normal (or nearly so) and the second
                                            strike was between a different set of dies that were covered by die
                                            caps or cap-like obstructions. The perfect alignment between the two
                                            strikes appears to be coincidental.

                                            The coin is expanded to beyond the size of a nickel. The clearer of
                                            the two dates (2000) is flattened in a way that can only be
                                            accomplished through a second strike. The outer parts of the
                                            peripheral letters are clear and reach the rim, despite the
                                            significant expansion of the coin. This is also characteristic of a
                                            double strike beneath a cap or planchet. Farther toward the center
                                            of the coin those same letters are flattened in the same way that the
                                            date is. The manner of flattening is very similar to my double
                                            struck nickel in which the second strike was through a late-stage die
                                            cap.

                                            So this coin represents a remarkable series of events.

                                            Thanks, Rich!

                                            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                                            <errcoins@b...> wrote:

                                            > Hi Mike,
                                            >
                                            > Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I
                                            know
                                            > you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you'd
                                            have
                                            > an opinion, which is why I asked :-)
                                            >
                                            > Thanks,
                                            > Jon
                                          • Mike Diamond
                                            As to whether this would qualify as a full sandwich strike on the second strike, that would be iffy. Generally the term sandwich strike is applied to a
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Oct 18, 2004
                                              As to whether this would qualify as a "full sandwich strike" on the
                                              second strike, that would be iffy. Generally the term "sandwich
                                              strike" is applied to a coin or planchet that is struck between two
                                              other coins or planchets. I don't think deteriorated caps or cap-
                                              like obstructions qualify.

                                              Still, it's a pretty neat set of circumstances.

                                              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                              <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture:
                                              >
                                              > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833
                                              >
                                              > The last hypothesis I introduced appears to be the correct one. It
                                              > looks like the first strike was normal (or nearly so) and the
                                              second
                                              > strike was between a different set of dies that were covered by die
                                              > caps or cap-like obstructions. The perfect alignment between the
                                              two
                                              > strikes appears to be coincidental.
                                              >
                                              > The coin is expanded to beyond the size of a nickel. The clearer
                                              of
                                              > the two dates (2000) is flattened in a way that can only be
                                              > accomplished through a second strike. The outer parts of the
                                              > peripheral letters are clear and reach the rim, despite the
                                              > significant expansion of the coin. This is also characteristic of
                                              a
                                              > double strike beneath a cap or planchet. Farther toward the center
                                              > of the coin those same letters are flattened in the same way that
                                              the
                                              > date is. The manner of flattening is very similar to my double
                                              > struck nickel in which the second strike was through a late-stage
                                              die
                                              > cap.
                                              >
                                              > So this coin represents a remarkable series of events.
                                            • Mike Diamond
                                              The perfect alignment between the first and second strike remains disturbing. There is only a 1 in 360 chance that a coin will end up in this orientation when
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
                                                The perfect alignment between the first and second strike remains
                                                disturbing. There is only a 1 in 360 chance that a coin will end up
                                                in this orientation when shunted to a different striking chamber.
                                                Still, all the remaining physical evidence points to this being the
                                                case.

                                                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                                <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > As to whether this would qualify as a "full sandwich strike" on the
                                                > second strike, that would be iffy. Generally the term "sandwich
                                                > strike" is applied to a coin or planchet that is struck between two
                                                > other coins or planchets. I don't think deteriorated caps or cap-
                                                > like obstructions qualify.
                                                >
                                                > Still, it's a pretty neat set of circumstances.
                                              • Rich Schemmer
                                                Your welcome, Mike I knew this coin would get your attention as It did mine when it was offered to me at the ANA. Thanx Rich Rich Schemmer Error Coins
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
                                                  Your welcome, Mike I knew this coin would get your attention as It
                                                  did mine when it was offered to me at the ANA.
                                                  Thanx
                                                  Rich
                                                  Rich Schemmer Error Coins
                                                  http://WWW.RichErrors.com/store.php

                                                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                                  <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > I just received the coin that stimulated quite a bit of conjecture:
                                                  >
                                                  > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3933508833
                                                  >
                                                  > The last hypothesis I introduced appears to be the correct one. It
                                                  > looks like the first strike was normal (or nearly so) and the
                                                  second
                                                  > strike was between a different set of dies that were covered by die
                                                  > caps or cap-like obstructions. The perfect alignment between the
                                                  two
                                                  > strikes appears to be coincidental.
                                                  >
                                                  > The coin is expanded to beyond the size of a nickel. The clearer
                                                  of
                                                  > the two dates (2000) is flattened in a way that can only be
                                                  > accomplished through a second strike. The outer parts of the
                                                  > peripheral letters are clear and reach the rim, despite the
                                                  > significant expansion of the coin. This is also characteristic of
                                                  a
                                                  > double strike beneath a cap or planchet. Farther toward the center
                                                  > of the coin those same letters are flattened in the same way that
                                                  the
                                                  > date is. The manner of flattening is very similar to my double
                                                  > struck nickel in which the second strike was through a late-stage
                                                  die
                                                  > cap.
                                                  >
                                                  > So this coin represents a remarkable series of events.
                                                  >
                                                  > Thanks, Rich!
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                                                  > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > Hi Mike,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Thanks for the responses. They sound plausible, and of course I
                                                  > know
                                                  > > you can't say for sure without seeing the coin, but I knew you'd
                                                  > have
                                                  > > an opinion, which is why I asked :-)
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Thanks,
                                                  > > Jon
                                                • Mike Diamond
                                                  It s also possible that the perfect alignment between first and second strikes could be due to an assist from a mischeivous mint worker. Maybe someone just
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
                                                    It's also possible that the perfect alignment between first and
                                                    second strikes could be due to an assist from a mischeivous mint
                                                    worker. Maybe someone just wanted to see what a struck cent would
                                                    look like when placed between a pair of die caps. Anything's
                                                    possible.

                                                    This is certainly one for the books.

                                                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                                                    <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > The perfect alignment between the first and second strike remains
                                                    > disturbing. There is only a 1 in 360 chance that a coin will end
                                                    up
                                                    > in this orientation when shunted to a different striking chamber.
                                                    > Still, all the remaining physical evidence points to this being the
                                                    > case.
                                                  • Mike Diamond
                                                    Another neat thing to appreciate is that this coin provides one exception to the rule that you cannot get an enlarged coin that shows expansion of the raised
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Oct 19, 2004
                                                      Another neat thing to appreciate is that this coin provides one
                                                      exception to the rule that you cannot get an enlarged coin that shows
                                                      expansion of the raised design on both faces.

                                                      There are lots of "giant coins" out there that show proportional
                                                      expansion on both faces. These are allegedly hammered between two
                                                      pieces of leather to acheive this effect.

                                                      The coin I got from Rich obviously looks nothing like these fakes,
                                                      except that both faces do show expansion of the design.

                                                      Any full sandwich strike on a struck coin would also be expected to
                                                      show expansion of the design on both faces. I haven't seen one yet.
                                                      I have seen full sandwich strikes with a full brockage on the obverse
                                                      and an expanded raised design on the reverse. I have one
                                                      (regrettfully mangled after the strike) and Glen Burger had one. I
                                                      suspect that if you were able to pry apart some bonded coins, you
                                                      will find expansion of the raised design of both faces of some of the
                                                      coins in the stack.

                                                      I once thought I had a full sandwich strike on an already-struck 2000-
                                                      D cent. But I now believe that one is a fake.
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