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"Greasy ghost"

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  • Mike Diamond
    Here s a strong example of a greasy ghost Roosevelt dime: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3930356164 The glop that was clinging to
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 15, 2004
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      Here's a strong example of a "greasy ghost" Roosevelt dime:

      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3930356164

      The glop that was clinging to the obverse die face gravitated toward
      the area of lowest effective striking pressure, which lies directly
      opposite the torch on the reverse. The result is a vague incuse
      impression which duplicates the shape of the torch and the olive and
      oak leaves that lie nearest to the torch.

      I have seen "greasy ghosts" just as strong as this one in other
      Roosevelt dimes. Greasy ghosts can also be found on the reverse of
      Lincoln cents (Lincoln's bust) and the obverse of Washington quarters
      (eagle's breast). There's no reason why they shouldn't occur on
      other denominations as well, if the design of the coin is conducive
      to such an error forming.
    • Mike Diamond
      Here s a nice example of a grease strike in which the die fill created a vague impression of Lincoln s bust:
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 24, 2005
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        Here's a nice example of a "grease strike" in which the die fill
        created a vague impression of Lincoln's bust:

        http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8320594962

        If the die fill is of just the right consistency, it will flow toward
        the area of lowest effective striking pressure, which happens to lie
        opposite Lincoln's bust on the reverse.

        Such a ghost closely resembles the incuse ghost images associated with
        weak strikes and strikes on thin or split planchets. However, the
        cause and manner of formation is entirely different.
      • Steve Mills
        Anybody else surprised this didn t sell? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8319803273 You just don t see many edge strikes.... Later.....
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 24, 2005
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          Anybody else surprised this didn't sell?

          http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8319803273

          You just don't see many edge strikes....

          Later.....
          Steve
        • Mike Diamond
          I was. I suppose the edge-struck design isn t that clear, or at least isn t that clear in the photos. But the error is authentic. I ve noticed that prices
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 24, 2005
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            I was. I suppose the edge-struck design isn't that clear, or at least
            isn't that clear in the photos. But the error is authentic. I've
            noticed that prices have dropped for a lot of errors over the past few
            weeks. Summer doldrums?

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Mills"
            <steve@m...> wrote:
            > Anybody else surprised this didn't sell?
            >
            > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8319803273
            >
            > You just don't see many edge strikes....
            >
            > Later.....
            > Steve
          • Rob Risi
            MAYBE ONE OF 2 THINGS? THE PRICE WAS TOO HIGH FOR THIS TYPE OF ERROR THAT DOESN T LOOK DRAMATIC(DISFORMED) OR THAT IT SEEMS LIKE IT WAS HANDLED WITH UNGLOVED
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 24, 2005
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              MAYBE ONE OF 2 THINGS? THE PRICE WAS TOO HIGH FOR THIS TYPE OF ERROR THAT DOESN'T LOOK DRAMATIC(DISFORMED) OR THAT IT SEEMS LIKE IT WAS HANDLED WITH UNGLOVED FINGERTIPS?????????????
               
              ROB

              Steve Mills <steve@...> wrote:
              Anybody else surprised this didn't sell?

              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8319803273

              You just don't see many edge strikes....

              Later.....
              Steve



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            • Mike Diamond
              I don t know. Fred sold a similar one a month or two ago that went for $250. But the die-struck edge design seemed to be clearer and more interesting on
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 24, 2005
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                I don't know. Fred sold a similar one a month or two ago that went
                for $250. But the die-struck edge design seemed to be clearer and
                more interesting on Fred's. I might have bid myself, but I already
                have an edge strike on an off-center 1980 cent. A nice EPU on the
                edge.

                One peculiar thing I've noticed is that all the edge strikes on
                struck cents I've seen show a die-struck design on both edges. But
                all the foldover strikes on struck cents that I've seen show a
                uniface strike. Perhaps a coin spinning on edge "sticks" better when
                pressed into the giving surface of a planchet?

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rob Risi
                <rjrisi@y...> wrote:
                > MAYBE ONE OF 2 THINGS? THE PRICE WAS TOO HIGH FOR THIS TYPE OF
                ERROR THAT DOESN'T LOOK DRAMATIC(DISFORMED) OR THAT IT SEEMS LIKE IT
                WAS HANDLED WITH UNGLOVED FINGERTIPS?????????????
                >
                > ROB
                >
                > Steve Mills <steve@m...> wrote:
                > Anybody else surprised this didn't sell?
                >
                > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8319803273
                >
                > You just don't see many edge strikes....
                >
                > Later.....
                > Steve
              • Steve Mills
                Mike, While we are on edge strikes: The only one I ve ever seen close up is one I was lucky enough to get a cheap group I purchased some years ago:
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 24, 2005
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                  Mike,

                  While we are on edge strikes:

                  The only one I've ever seen close up is one I was lucky enough to get a cheap
                  group I purchased some years ago:

                  http://www.five0central.com/ErrorCollection/EdgeStrike.htm

                  This shows my lack of knowledge of how the presses work - I've always wondered
                  why they all don't end up as foldovers. I had assumed that the presses had the
                  power to mash most anything flat. We see the tremendous power in bonded pieces
                  and some of the shrapnel. I guess I can see how a coin like mine could
                  partially bend and then become a stamping room projectile (say, maybe I should
                  call it a "Partial foldover"), but Alan's coin doesn't appear to suffer from
                  any distortion of this type. I can't envision what actually happened after the
                  press encountered the coin on edge.

                  Enlighten me, please.

                  Steve
                • Mike Diamond
                  I figure that the coins that aren t bent were not perfectly vertical when they were struck. The hammer die could kick them out of the striking chamber with
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 24, 2005
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                    I figure that the coins that aren't bent were not perfectly vertical
                    when they were struck. The hammer die could kick them out of the
                    striking chamber with just enough force to leave an edge strike, but
                    not so much as to bend the planchet.

                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Mills"
                    <steve@m...> wrote:
                    > Mike,
                    >
                    > While we are on edge strikes:
                    >
                    > The only one I've ever seen close up is one I was lucky enough to
                    get a cheap
                    > group I purchased some years ago:
                    >
                    > http://www.five0central.com/ErrorCollection/EdgeStrike.htm
                    >
                    > This shows my lack of knowledge of how the presses work - I've
                    always wondered
                    > why they all don't end up as foldovers. I had assumed that the
                    presses had the
                    > power to mash most anything flat. We see the tremendous power in
                    bonded pieces
                    > and some of the shrapnel. I guess I can see how a coin like mine
                    could
                    > partially bend and then become a stamping room projectile (say,
                    maybe I should
                    > call it a "Partial foldover"), but Alan's coin doesn't appear to
                    suffer from
                    > any distortion of this type. I can't envision what actually
                    happened after the
                    > press encountered the coin on edge.
                    >
                    > Enlighten me, please.
                    >
                    > Steve
                  • Mike Diamond
                    Seems to be reasonable hypothesis. The two thinnest issues -- cents and dimes -- have the highest incidence of this effect. Nickels have the lowest (zero, at
                    Message 9 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
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                      Seems to be reasonable hypothesis. The two thinnest issues -- cents
                      and dimes -- have the highest incidence of this effect. Nickels have
                      the lowest (zero, at my last count).

                      The thicker planchets probably have the effect of dampening the
                      differences between areas of lowest and highest effective striking
                      pressure.

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom"
                      <goldpans@i...> wrote:
                      > Do you think the small diameter and thickness of a nickel as compared
                      to other coins diameters and thicknesses has an effect to negate a
                      ghost image?
                    • Mike Diamond
                      I haven t seen it on half dollars or dollars, either.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
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                        I haven't seen it on half dollars or dollars, either.

                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Bunch"
                        <goldpans@i...> wrote:
                        > I have several nickels that could possibly be ghost images, but they
                        > are no where close to having recognisable features (blurred)to call
                        > ghost.
                        > What about half dollar and one dollar coins since these also have
                        > thicker planchets?
                      • Mike Diamond
                        I haven t seen a greasy ghost of the Lincoln Memorial. (Monticello is on the nickel) While it s an extensive feature, the Memorial is relatively shallow, so
                        Message 11 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
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                          I haven't seen a greasy ghost of the Lincoln Memorial. (Monticello is
                          on the nickel) While it's an extensive feature, the Memorial is
                          relatively shallow, so there won't be a huge change in effective
                          striking pressure between field and building. Lincoln's bust, however,
                          extends much deeper into the die face, although it's been made much
                          shallower since the 1990's.

                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom"
                          <goldpans@i...> wrote:
                          > On Lincoln cents could the Monticello Building show thru on the
                          obverse side instead of Lincolns bust on the reverse side?
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Mike Diamond
                          > To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 5:01 PM
                          > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: "Greasy ghost"
                        • Mike Diamond
                          These are clash marks. The terms die clash and clashed dies are also used. The two dies smacked together in the absence of a planchet. These clash marks
                          Message 12 of 16 , Aug 10, 2005
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                            These are clash marks. The terms "die clash" and "clashed dies" are
                            also used. The two dies smacked together in the absence of a
                            planchet. These clash marks are rather fuzzy, so either they are old
                            clash marks that have been affected by die wear, or the dies were
                            abraded ("polished") in an attempt to remove them. Perhaps both
                            processes account for the lack of clarity.

                            Clash marks are much more common than "greasy ghosts".

                            There are many sources of "ghost images" on coins. Probably close to
                            a dozen.

                            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Bunch"
                            <goldpans@i...> wrote:
                            > I loaded 6 photos of a ghost image in the default album
                            > titled "ghost".
                            > These pics clearly show the Lincoln Memorials columns and stairs on
                            > the obverse.
                            > The columns are visible under the "T" and "Y" on "LIBERTY" and 3 in
                            > front of Lincolns mouth.
                            > The stairs are visible extending from the forehead and back of head.
                            > On the reverse the Memorials base is crooked and a few of the
                            columns
                            > appear "fat".
                            > This cent also has a slightly rotated die.
                            > This does not have Lincolns bust as a ghost, as mentioned ealier.
                            > Is this a rarer error coin than one that is opposite and shows
                            > Lincolns bust on the reverse, instead of mine which shows the
                            > Memorial Building on the obverse?
                          • Mike Diamond
                            The dies were rotated when they clashed. Typically, when you have a rotated die error, any clash marks will display an identical amount of rotation.
                            Message 13 of 16 , Aug 10, 2005
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                              The dies were rotated when they clashed. Typically, when you have a
                              rotated die error, any clash marks will display an identical amount of
                              rotation. Sometimes a rotation is corrected after a clash. In that
                              case the clash marks will be rotated but the normal design will show a
                              proper orientation.

                              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom"
                              <goldpans@i...> wrote:
                              > Would that also account for the amount of die rotation that is
                              visible (Memorial Building) on both sides?
                            • Mike Diamond
                              The raised marks you see represent the bays between the columns. The area between the raised bars represent the columns themselves. When dies clash, the
                              Message 14 of 16 , Aug 10, 2005
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                                The raised marks you see represent the bays between the columns. The
                                area between the raised bars represent the columns themselves. When
                                dies clash, the initial impression is created by the field portion of
                                the die face, or those parts of the die face that lie at the same
                                level as the field. These create an indentation in the opposite die,
                                which show up as raised images on the coin. At the same time, metal
                                rises up into the recesses of the opposite die (the columns),
                                creating a positive image. That's transferred to the coin as an
                                incuse, mirror image.

                                Thus, clash marks are a mixture of raised and incuse mirror-image
                                features. Typically, we speak of clash marks as being incuse, since
                                it's the incuse impressions that actually represent the design.
                                However, in the case of a light clash, you might detect only a raised
                                image. So, for example, the Vermont quarter shows "flames" coming
                                out of the maple-tapper's mouth. These are actually the recesses
                                between the waves of Washington's hair.

                                "Greasy ghosts" are always incuse.

                                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Bunch"
                                <goldpans@i...> wrote:
                                > So clash marks are raised above the field, what about greasy ghosts?
                              • Mike Diamond
                                Die steel must have some capacity for deformation (strain). It probably shows a slight bit of resilience as well, since clash marks can sometimes appear on
                                Message 15 of 16 , Aug 10, 2005
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                                  Die steel must have some capacity for deformation (strain). It
                                  probably shows a slight bit of resilience as well, since clash marks
                                  can sometimes appear on the most convex part of the die face (the
                                  periphery), without any appreciable flattening of the coin's field.
                                  If it was extremely hard and brittle, it would indeed shatter upon
                                  impact. Even so, relative to coin metal, die steel is quite hard and
                                  brittle.

                                  Clash marks are common. Even very strong clash marks are not
                                  typically associated with die breakage. The dies on your coin were
                                  not retouched in any way. Only a few cases of retouching are known
                                  among coins from the latter half of the 20th century. Like the 1944-
                                  D half dollar with engraved designer initials "AW".

                                  Die rotation has at least three causes:

                                  1. incorrect installation
                                  2. incorrect grinding of guide marks (e.g., "flats"), leading to
                                  incorrect installation.
                                  3. spontaneous rotation of a loose die.

                                  Spontaneous rotations can be followed by re-tightening in the wrong
                                  position. Either die can rotate.

                                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Bunch"
                                  <goldpans@i...> wrote:
                                  > I worked in a machine shop 25 years ago and trying to think of the
                                  > dynamics of mint dies is slightly confusing.
                                  > From all I've noticed, die material is so hard that it would
                                  probably
                                  > chip, crack or shatter when a mistake is made (die clash).
                                  > Do you reckon that the "T" and "Y" in "LIBERTY" was recut after
                                  > polishing?
                                  > Polishing and die "touchup" probably also accounts for the crooked
                                  > base of the Memorial Building and the "fat" appearing columns.
                                  Right?
                                  > Would the slight die rotation indicate damage on other parts of the
                                  > die?
                                • Mike Diamond
                                  The deformed columns and base are most likely due to a combination of die wear and die polishing. No touchup .
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Aug 10, 2005
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                                    The deformed columns and base are most likely due to a combination of
                                    die wear and die polishing. No "touchup".

                                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Bunch"
                                    <goldpans@i...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Polishing and die "touchup" probably also accounts for the crooked
                                    > base of the Memorial Building and the "fat" appearing columns.
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