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Re: 1983P Jefferson Nickel With Tripled Reverse Die Clash

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  • Mike Diamond
    I also notice that peculiar flattening opposite the second, off- center strike. I keep seeing double struck nickels (and a few examples from other
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 5, 2004
      I also notice that peculiar flattening opposite the second, off-
      center strike. I keep seeing double struck nickels (and a few
      examples from other denominations) with this feature. I still don't
      know what the coin is bumping up against as it is pushed laterally by
      the expansion of the second strike. It's certainly not an "almost
      saddle strike" ("sideneck strike"). As in all the other examples
      I've seen, the second strike shows the base of the bust (judging from
      the part of the reverse design that shows), which is almost 180
      degrees removed from what a saddle strike should show. Also, the
      distance between the off-center strike and the "flat" is too great
      for a saddle strike.

      So you actually stumped me twice!

      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
      <mdia1@a...> wrote:
      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, yczavala
      > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > > One would expect that the obverse die would show a reciprocal
      set
      > > of clash marks with equally great spacing. Is this the case?
      > >
      > > ***** Nope. I posted an obverse pic in the clash folder. The
      clash
      > > is strong but not tripled. You can clearly see Monticello as
      well
      > as
      > > the 'o' from the word Monticello right next to Jeff's hair on the
      > > right.
      >
      > Well that's pretty wierd. There should be some extra "O's" behind
      > Jeff's head. Maybe they replaced the obverse die and not the
      reverse
      > die? Maybe there was a second clash after installation of the
      second
      > obverse die?
      > >
      > > > I'm planning an article on recent MAD clashes and I may want to
      > use
      > > > your images, if that's okay.
      > >
      > > *** Sure thing as always. Do I win anything if I stump you twice
      in
      > a
      > > row? How about 3 times?
      >
      > As you know, we offer no prizes on ECIE. :) People join for the
      > intellectual exercise and a ringside seat to some fierce debates.
      > Anyway, it's not all that hard to stump me (or anyone for that
      > matter). There are more mysteries in the minting process than are
      > dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio. (Apologies to Bill
      > Shakespeare).
    • yczavala
      I posted a fourth shot that shows the whole obverse. Keep what you want for your article and delete the rest. Maybe you ll see something else in this shot.
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 5, 2004
        I posted a fourth shot that shows the whole obverse. Keep what you
        want for your article and delete the rest. Maybe you'll see
        something else in this shot.

        YZ



        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
        <mdia1@a...> wrote:
        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, yczavala
        > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > > One would expect that the obverse die would show a reciprocal
        set
        > > of clash marks with equally great spacing. Is this the case?
        > >
        > > ***** Nope. I posted an obverse pic in the clash folder. The
        clash
        > > is strong but not tripled. You can clearly see Monticello as
        well
        > as
        > > the 'o' from the word Monticello right next to Jeff's hair on the
        > > right.
        >
        > Well that's pretty wierd. There should be some extra "O's" behind
        > Jeff's head. Maybe they replaced the obverse die and not the
        reverse
        > die? Maybe there was a second clash after installation of the
        second
        > obverse die?
        > >
        > > > I'm planning an article on recent MAD clashes and I may want to
        > use
        > > > your images, if that's okay.
        > >
        > > *** Sure thing as always. Do I win anything if I stump you twice
        in
        > a
        > > row? How about 3 times?
        >
        > As you know, we offer no prizes on ECIE. :) People join for the
        > intellectual exercise and a ringside seat to some fierce debates.
        > Anyway, it's not all that hard to stump me (or anyone for that
        > matter). There are more mysteries in the minting process than are
        > dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio. (Apologies to Bill
        > Shakespeare).
      • yczavala
        Wow....shall we go for thrice? Next brain teaser coming up. YZ So you actually stumped me twice! ... the ... behind ... to ... twice ... are
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 5, 2004
          Wow....shall we go for thrice? Next brain teaser coming up.

          YZ


          So you actually stumped me twice!


          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
          > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
          > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, yczavala
          > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > > > > One would expect that the obverse die would show a reciprocal
          > set
          > > > of clash marks with equally great spacing. Is this the case?
          > > >
          > > > ***** Nope. I posted an obverse pic in the clash folder. The
          > clash
          > > > is strong but not tripled. You can clearly see Monticello as
          > well
          > > as
          > > > the 'o' from the word Monticello right next to Jeff's hair on
          the
          > > > right.
          > >
          > > Well that's pretty wierd. There should be some extra "O's"
          behind
          > > Jeff's head. Maybe they replaced the obverse die and not the
          > reverse
          > > die? Maybe there was a second clash after installation of the
          > second
          > > obverse die?
          > > >
          > > > > I'm planning an article on recent MAD clashes and I may want
          to
          > > use
          > > > > your images, if that's okay.
          > > >
          > > > *** Sure thing as always. Do I win anything if I stump you
          twice
          > in
          > > a
          > > > row? How about 3 times?
          > >
          > > As you know, we offer no prizes on ECIE. :) People join for the
          > > intellectual exercise and a ringside seat to some fierce debates.

          > > Anyway, it's not all that hard to stump me (or anyone for that
          > > matter). There are more mysteries in the minting process than
          are
          > > dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio. (Apologies to Bill
          > > Shakespeare).
        • Mike Diamond
          I don t see anything else springing out at me. I ve downloaded the images. Many thanks. Off-center strikes with flats at the opposite pole also occur with
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 5, 2004
            I don't see anything else springing out at me. I've downloaded the
            images. Many thanks.

            Off-center strikes with "flats" at the opposite pole also occur with
            simple off-center strikes as well as double strikes. Same deal with
            the base of the bust showing up on the off-center strike. Distance
            between strike and flat all fall within a pretty narrow range,
            according to the specimens I've examined. There's no clear contact
            facet on the flat, and often no discernible surface texture, although
            on some I've noticed some faint, horizontal striations. The off-
            center strike doesn't show any damage on its edge, as would be the
            case if it were post-strike damage.

            Perhaps some of our members who've taken numerous floor tours of the
            Mint could shed some light on this mystery.

            I may or may not do MAD clashes for my next article. It's a game of
            eeny-meeny-miney-mo as far as selecting a topic.

            By the way, the deadline for the May/June Errorscope is March 15th,
            so if any of you are considering a submission, you better get a move
            on. Sage advice for yours truly, as I'm a notorious procrastinator.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, yczavala
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > I posted a fourth shot that shows the whole obverse. Keep what you
            > want for your article and delete the rest. Maybe you'll see
            > something else in this shot.
            >
            > YZ
          • yczavala
            Mike, I think I came across some of these recently that have notches on the flat part. I ll see if I can dig them out again tonight. I have another stumper
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 5, 2004
              Mike,

              I think I came across some of these recently that have notches on the
              flat part. I'll see if I can dig them out again tonight. I have
              another stumper on tap after the peculiar off center cent. I working
              on those images as we speak.

              YZ

              > Off-center strikes with "flats" at the opposite pole also occur
              with
              > simple off-center strikes as well as double strikes. Same deal
              with
              > the base of the bust showing up on the off-center strike. Distance
              > between strike and flat all fall within a pretty narrow range,
              > according to the specimens I've examined. There's no clear contact
              > facet on the flat, and often no discernible surface texture,
              although
              > on some I've noticed some faint, horizontal striations.
            • Mike Diamond
              You might be dealing with some notched chain strikes if there is a well-developed contact facet and a concave profile when viewed from above (or below). I ve
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 5, 2004
                You might be dealing with some "notched chain strikes" if there is a
                well-developed contact facet and a concave profile when viewed from
                above (or below). I've seen a few notched chain strikes on nickels,
                but those always occur at the tip of the off-center strike, not
                opposite it. I'll know more after I see the images.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, yczavala
                <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > Mike,
                >
                > I think I came across some of these recently that have notches on
                the
                > flat part. I'll see if I can dig them out again tonight. I have
                > another stumper on tap after the peculiar off center cent. I
                working
                > on those images as we speak.
                >
                > YZ
                >
                > > Off-center strikes with "flats" at the opposite pole also occur
                > with
                > > simple off-center strikes as well as double strikes. Same deal
                > with
                > > the base of the bust showing up on the off-center strike.
                Distance
                > > between strike and flat all fall within a pretty narrow range,
                > > according to the specimens I've examined. There's no clear
                contact
                > > facet on the flat, and often no discernible surface texture,
                > although
                > > on some I've noticed some faint, horizontal striations.
              • yczavala
                I have a d/s nickel with a notch on the normally struck pole. I have an o/c nickel with notches on both poles. Images coming later this evening. YZ ... a
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 5, 2004
                  I have a d/s nickel with a notch on the normally struck pole. I have
                  an o/c nickel with notches on both poles. Images coming later this
                  evening.

                  YZ


                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                  <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                  > You might be dealing with some "notched chain strikes" if there is
                  a
                  > well-developed contact facet and a concave profile when viewed from
                  > above (or below). I've seen a few notched chain strikes on nickels,
                  > but those always occur at the tip of the off-center strike, not
                  > opposite it. I'll know more after I see the images.
                  >
                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, yczavala
                  > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > > Mike,
                  > >
                  > > I think I came across some of these recently that have notches on
                  > the
                  > > flat part. I'll see if I can dig them out again tonight. I have
                  > > another stumper on tap after the peculiar off center cent. I
                  > working
                  > > on those images as we speak.
                  > >
                  > > YZ
                  > >
                  > > > Off-center strikes with "flats" at the opposite pole also occur
                  > > with
                  > > > simple off-center strikes as well as double strikes. Same deal
                  > > with
                  > > > the base of the bust showing up on the off-center strike.
                  > Distance
                  > > > between strike and flat all fall within a pretty narrow range,
                  > > > according to the specimens I've examined. There's no clear
                  > contact
                  > > > facet on the flat, and often no discernible surface texture,
                  > > although
                  > > > on some I've noticed some faint, horizontal striations.
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