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A Filled Die

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  • Ben
    Hola amigos, There is a 1993 Spanish 5 pta variety coin know as wandering without neck. It looks like a filled die in the neck area of the Apostle Santiago
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 1, 2003
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      Hola amigos,
      There is a 1993 Spanish 5 pta variety coin know as wandering without
      neck. It looks like a filled die in the neck area of the Apostle
      Santiago wandering's portrait. How can a variety look like a filled
      die??? The coin was circulating and the variety without neck is
      catalogued and is priced about 6 Euro.
      Regards
      Benjamin
    • Mike Diamond
      It sounds like a case of overzealous die abrasion ( die polishing , die dressing ). If a die is slightly damaged (by die clash, for instance), technicians
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 2, 2003
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        It sounds like a case of overzealous die abrasion ("die
        polishing", "die dressing"). If a die is slightly damaged (by die
        clash, for instance), technicians attempt to erase the signs of
        damage by abrading the die. This causes attentuation (thinning) and,
        in severe cases, loss of the lowest-lying design elements.

        So we have in our United States coins "no-neck" Lincoln cents which
        are due to this cause.

        Six Euro sounds steep for this kind of error. I pick up most of my
        examples for a dollar or just get them from pocket change.

        Die abrasion "errors" are technically not varieties, since the
        alteration of the surface of the die face occurs after the die is
        installed and placed in production. However, just like any die
        error, they are repetitive.

        -- Mike Diamond

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Ben"
        <insano@a...> wrote:
        > Hola amigos,
        > There is a 1993 Spanish 5 pta variety coin know as wandering
        without
        > neck. It looks like a filled die in the neck area of the Apostle
        > Santiago wandering's portrait. How can a variety look like a filled
        > die??? The coin was circulating and the variety without neck is
        > catalogued and is priced about 6 Euro.
        > Regards
        > Benjamin
      • Jon Sullivan
        Hi Mike, I have to disagree with your statement that abraded die coins are not varieties. Abraded die coins are collected as varieties because they change the
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 2, 2003
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          Hi Mike,

          I have to disagree with your statement that abraded die coins are
          not varieties. Abraded die coins are collected as varieties because
          they change the die's surface and are thus a repetitive variety, with
          every coin produced from that die having the exact same pattern of
          missing detail. You can find the exact same pattern of missing detail
          on multiple coins, which is the primary difference between an error and
          a variety: a variety always repeats itself (more than one of exactly
          the same thing), and an error never does (an error is always unique in
          some way.) Mr.James Wiles even includes some of them in his Kennedy
          Half Dollar Attribution Guide, under the name of "ADR" which stands for
          "Abraded Die Reverse ( if the abrasion was on the obverse it would be
          ABO.)

          Sincerely,
          Jon Sullivan


          On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 07:01 AM, Mike Diamond wrote:
          >
          >
          > Die abrasion "errors" are technically not varieties, since the
          > alteration of the surface of the die face occurs after the die is
          > installed and placed in production.  However, just like any die
          > error, they are repetitive.
          >
          > -- Mike Diamond
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Ben"
          > <insano@a...> wrote:
          > > Hola amigos,
          > > There is a 1993 Spanish 5 pta variety coin know as wandering
          > without
          > > neck. It looks like a filled die in the neck area of the Apostle
          > > Santiago wandering's portrait. How can a variety look like a filled
          > > die??? The coin was circulating and the variety without neck is
          > > catalogued and is priced about 6 Euro.
          > > Regards
          > > Benjamin
          >
          >
          <image.tiff>
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > errorcoininformationexchange-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • Mike Diamond
          Following this logic, ALL die errors are then varieties. This would include clashed dies, cuds, die damage, die gouges, soft die errors , etc. All die
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 2, 2003
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            Following this logic, ALL die errors are then varieties. This would
            include clashed dies, cuds, die damage, die gouges, "soft die
            errors", etc. All die errors are repetitive, after all.

            I suppose people define "variety" in different ways, but I prefer a
            more restrictive definition that admits only doubled dies, repunched
            dates, repunched mintmarks, dual mintmarks, misplaced dates, and
            other screw-ups in die preparation/manufacture.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
            <errcoins@b...> wrote:
            > Hi Mike,
            >
            > I have to disagree with your statement that abraded die coins
            are
            > not varieties. Abraded die coins are collected as varieties because
            > they change the die's surface and are thus a repetitive variety,
            with
            > every coin produced from that die having the exact same pattern of
            > missing detail. You can find the exact same pattern of missing
            detail
            > on multiple coins, which is the primary difference between an error
            and
            > a variety: a variety always repeats itself (more than one of
            exactly
            > the same thing), and an error never does (an error is always unique
            in
            > some way.) Mr.James Wiles even includes some of them in his Kennedy
            > Half Dollar Attribution Guide, under the name of "ADR" which stands
            for
            > "Abraded Die Reverse ( if the abrasion was on the obverse it would
            be
            > ABO.)
            >
            > Sincerely,
            > Jon Sullivan
            >
            >
            > On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 07:01 AM, Mike Diamond wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Die abrasion "errors" are technically not varieties, since the
            > > alteration of the surface of the die face occurs after the die is
            > > installed and placed in production.  However, just like any die
            > > error, they are repetitive.
            > >
            > > -- Mike Diamond
            > >
            > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Ben"
            > > <insano@a...> wrote:
            > > > Hola amigos,
            > > > There is a 1993 Spanish 5 pta variety coin know as wandering
            > > without
            > > > neck. It looks like a filled die in the neck area of the Apostle
            > > > Santiago wandering's portrait. How can a variety look like a
            filled
            > > > die??? The coin was circulating and the variety without neck is
            > > > catalogued and is priced about 6 Euro.
            > > > Regards
            > > > Benjamin
            > >
            > >
            > <image.tiff>
            > >
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > errorcoininformationexchange-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
          • Jon Sullivan
            Well, I thought you might have a more restricted definition since I do know other individuals who only consider certain types of die variations to be
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 2, 2003
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              Well, I thought you might have a more restricted definition since I do
              know other individuals who only consider certain types of die
              variations to be varieties. I consider a repetitive abnormality on a
              die to be a variety. I think cuds are varieties because they do repeat
              themselves. I would say that die gouges and clashed dies are varieties
              as well. I understand your point of view, though.

              Jon Sullivan


              On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 07:45 AM, Mike Diamond wrote:

              > Following this logic, ALL die errors are then varieties.  This would
              > include clashed dies, cuds, die damage, die gouges, "soft die
              > errors", etc.  All die errors are repetitive, after all.
              >
              > I suppose people define "variety" in different ways, but I prefer a
              > more restrictive definition that admits only doubled dies, repunched
              > dates, repunched mintmarks, dual mintmarks, misplaced dates, and
              > other screw-ups in die preparation/manufacture.
              >
              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
              > <errcoins@b...> wrote:
              > > Hi Mike,
              > >
              > >     I have to disagree with your statement that abraded die coins
              > are
              > > not varieties. Abraded die coins are collected as varieties because
              > > they change the die's surface and are thus a repetitive variety,
              > with
              > > every coin produced from that die having the exact same pattern of
              > > missing detail. You can find the exact same pattern of missing
              > detail
              > > on multiple coins, which is the primary difference between an error
              > and
              > > a variety: a variety always repeats itself (more than one of
              > exactly
              > > the same thing), and an error never does (an error is always unique
              > in
              > > some way.) Mr.James Wiles even includes some of them in his Kennedy
              > > Half Dollar Attribution Guide, under the name of "ADR" which stands
              > for
              > > "Abraded Die Reverse ( if the abrasion was on the obverse it would
              > be
              > > ABO.)
              > >
              > > Sincerely,
              > > Jon Sullivan
              > >
              > >
              > > On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 07:01  AM, Mike Diamond wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Die abrasion "errors" are technically not varieties, since the
              > > > alteration of the surface of the die face occurs after the die is
              > > > installed and placed in production.  However, just like any die
              > > > error, they are repetitive.
              > > >
              > > > -- Mike Diamond
              > > >
              > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Ben"
              > > > <insano@a...> wrote:
              > > > > Hola amigos,
              > > > > There is a 1993 Spanish 5 pta variety coin know as wandering
              > > > without
              > > > > neck. It looks like a filled die in the neck area of the Apostle
              > > > > Santiago wandering's portrait. How can a variety look like a
              > filled
              > > > > die??? The coin was circulating and the variety without neck is
              > > > > catalogued and is priced about 6 Euro.
              > > > > Regards
              > > > > Benjamin
              > > >
              > > >
              > > <image.tiff>
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > errorcoininformationexchange-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              > Service.
              >
              >
              <image.tiff>
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > errorcoininformationexchange-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            • Mike Diamond
              I guess I would also restrict the term variety to screw-ups that involve the design. Otherwise a die manufacturing mistake such as concentric lathe marks
              Message 6 of 6 , Sep 2, 2003
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                I guess I would also restrict the term "variety" to screw-ups that
                involve the design. Otherwise a die manufacturing mistake such as
                concentric lathe marks would also have to be termed a "variety".
                Concentric lathe marks are present at installation, since the mis-
                step that creates them occurs long before hubbing.

                It's no big deal either way, as long as the nature of the
                error/variety is made clear.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Jon Sullivan
                <errcoins@b...> wrote:
                > Well, I thought you might have a more restricted definition since I
                do
                > know other individuals who only consider certain types of die
                > variations to be varieties. I consider a repetitive abnormality on
                a
                > die to be a variety. I think cuds are varieties because they do
                repeat
                > themselves. I would say that die gouges and clashed dies are
                varieties
                > as well. I understand your point of view, though.
                >
                > Jon Sullivan
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