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Re: Interesting indent

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  • Rafael Delgado
    Since speculation is probably the previous step to the formulation of a hypothesis, let me suggest that the eliptical clad might have started as a die cap
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 6, 2003
      Since speculation is probably the previous step to the
      formulation of a hypothesis, let me suggest that the
      eliptical clad might have started as a die cap picked
      up from a previous coin. Thus might be the happening
      and the centering.
      E. of S.
      Rafael


      --- pwrwgndrvr <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      > It is not that unusual for a clad layer to come off
      > - note the many
      > missing clad coins available on the market. Most
      > come off in the
      > blanking press or the upset mill. A few more come
      > off during the
      > strike. Contrary to the popular misconception, most
      > missing clad
      > errors are NOT from being punched at the end of a
      > strip where the
      > clad layer ran out on one side. Most started out as
      > fully clad
      > planchets, then lost a layer as mentioned. So it is
      > not overly rare
      > to have an elliptical clad layer floating around. I
      > have a MA qtr
      > that was struck thru a multi struck elliptical clad
      > layer. Pics may
      > still be in the album somewhere and it is also
      > available at the B&M
      > auction at the ANA show, end of this month.
      > btw - the evidence that dispels any dispute as to
      > where most missing
      > clads originate is as follows. If/when they come
      > from the end of the
      > strip, there will always be at least 5 (when
      > punching qtrs) planchets
      > punched out with a partial missing clad, since there
      > is no way to
      > draw a straight line across the punched strip
      > without bisecting at
      > least 5 holes. Therefore, the population of partial
      > missing clads
      > would be significant, if this was where the missing
      > clads mostly came
      > from. The fact is, they are very scarce, yet the
      > population of
      > missing clad errors is large. This large
      > disproportion proves that
      > few missing clads come from the end of the strip.
      >
      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
      > maaswhole
      > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > --- In
      > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
      > maaswhole
      > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > > --- In
      > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
      > > RichErrors@a...
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > I Agree , Mike 100%
      > > >
      > > > That sounds possible, but the statistical odds
      > of that series of
      > > > events taking place, and then the final scrap is
      > centered, it
      > just
      > > > seems so unlikely.
      > > > I'd tell you my theroy, if I could come up with
      > one.
      > >
      > > On second thought, maybe it's not so unlikely.
      > See, I was thinking
      > > there was first an elliptical planchet then later
      > it delaminated.
      > > This would mean two rare errors, but if first it
      > delaminated, then
      > > bonuced around and became elliptical, it would
      > seem to be a more
      > > likely outcome.
      > > I see mike wanted it and won it, so I hope he lets
      > us know.
      >
      >


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    • Mike Diamond
      I m not sure I understand the scenario. Perhaps it s best to hold all further speculation until I examine the coin. It s also wise to employ Occam s Razor
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 6, 2003
        I'm not sure I understand the scenario. Perhaps it's best to hold
        all further speculation until I examine the coin. It's also wise to
        employ Occam's Razor whenever possible, choosing the simplest
        explanation among an array of possibilities.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael Delgado
        <my_errors@y...> wrote:
        > Since speculation is probably the previous step to the
        > formulation of a hypothesis, let me suggest that the
        > eliptical clad might have started as a die cap picked
        > up from a previous coin. Thus might be the happening
        > and the centering.
        > E. of S.
        > Rafael
        >
      • maaswhole
        In light of our discussion, we may have to call it a struck through planchet fragment , rather than an indent. Although if you can squeeze the word elliptical
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 6, 2003
          In light of our discussion, we may have to call it a "struck through
          planchet fragment", rather than an indent. Although if you can
          squeeze the word elliptical in there somehow, like "struck through
          fragment of an elliptical planchet" it sounds a little more unique.
          Not that it matters much, but proper nomenclature
          is important.
          Gee Mike, I'm surprised you didn't correct me. :)

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
          <mdia1@a...> wrote:
          > I'm not sure I understand the scenario. Perhaps it's best to hold
          > all further speculation until I examine the coin. It's also wise
          to
          > employ Occam's Razor whenever possible, choosing the simplest
          > explanation among an array of possibilities.
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael Delgado
          > <my_errors@y...> wrote:
          > > Since speculation is probably the previous step to the
          > > formulation of a hypothesis, let me suggest that the
          > > eliptical clad might have started as a die cap picked
          > > up from a previous coin. Thus might be the happening
          > > and the centering.
          > > E. of S.
          > > Rafael
          > >
        • maaswhole
          Speaking of struck through planchet fragment, I think that s what I got here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3032023588 Sold as a
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 8, 2003
            Speaking of struck through planchet fragment, I think that's what I
            got here:

            http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3032023588

            Sold as a lamination, and it looks like one because of the
            striations, but normal weight and normal or higher than normal
            presure in the indented area, along with finning of the rim there
            too, all lead me to believe it was struck through a laminated
            planchet fragment. I figured that because the striations match what a
            split planchet look like.
            There are also some marks that were struck into the area which are
            faint and not visible in the scan, it almost looks like the "E" from
            one cent on a cent reverse, but I might be seeing things.
            Any thoughts?


            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, maaswhole
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > In light of our discussion, we may have to call it a "struck
            through
            > planchet fragment", rather than an indent. Although if you can
            > squeeze the word elliptical in there somehow, like "struck through
            > fragment of an elliptical planchet" it sounds a little more unique.
            > Not that it matters much, but proper nomenclature
            > is important.
            > Gee Mike, I'm surprised you didn't correct me. :)
            >
            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
            > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
            > > I'm not sure I understand the scenario. Perhaps it's best to
            hold
            > > all further speculation until I examine the coin. It's also wise
            > to
            > > employ Occam's Razor whenever possible, choosing the simplest
            > > explanation among an array of possibilities.
            > >
            > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael
            Delgado
            > > <my_errors@y...> wrote:
            > > > Since speculation is probably the previous step to the
            > > > formulation of a hypothesis, let me suggest that the
            > > > eliptical clad might have started as a die cap picked
            > > > up from a previous coin. Thus might be the happening
            > > > and the centering.
            > > > E. of S.
            > > > Rafael
            > > >
          • Mike Diamond
            You are substantially correct. I believe that this coin was indented by a split planchet. Whether it was split-before-strike or split- after-strike is
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 8, 2003
              You are substantially correct. I believe that this coin was indented
              by a split planchet. Whether it was split-before-strike or split-
              after-strike is anybody's guess, as the striated face was struck into
              the coin.

              I can't evaluate the possible faint letter trace, but it would be
              unlikely. A faint, isolated letter would indicate a very weak
              strike. A split planchet with such a weak strike would have to be
              quite thin (assuming everything else about the strike was normal).
              And a thin planchet would have let through a strong ghost image in
              the indented area. I see hardly any ghost image of the obverse
              design in the indented area.

              Regardless, it's a nice find.

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, maaswhole
              <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > Speaking of struck through planchet fragment, I think that's what I
              > got here:
              >
              > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3032023588
              >
              > Sold as a lamination, and it looks like one because of the
              > striations, but normal weight and normal or higher than normal
              > presure in the indented area, along with finning of the rim there
              > too, all lead me to believe it was struck through a laminated
              > planchet fragment. I figured that because the striations match what
              a
              > split planchet look like.
              > There are also some marks that were struck into the area which are
              > faint and not visible in the scan, it almost looks like the "E"
              from
              > one cent on a cent reverse, but I might be seeing things.
              > Any thoughts?
              >
            • pwrwgndrvr
              I agree with that. Shape is the same as if indented by a planchet. I would not expect a lamination to so closely resemble a planchet. The other observations
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 8, 2003
                I agree with that. Shape is the same as if indented by a planchet. I
                would not expect a lamination to so closely resemble a planchet. The
                other observations definitely support that conclusion too.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, maaswhole
                <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > Speaking of struck through planchet fragment, I think that's what I
                > got here:
                >
                > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3032023588
                >
                > Sold as a lamination, and it looks like one because of the
                > striations, but normal weight and normal or higher than normal
                > presure in the indented area, along with finning of the rim there
                > too, all lead me to believe it was struck through a laminated
                > planchet fragment. I figured that because the striations match what
                a
                > split planchet look like.
                > There are also some marks that were struck into the area which are
                > faint and not visible in the scan, it almost looks like the "E"
                from
                > one cent on a cent reverse, but I might be seeing things.
                > Any thoughts?
                >
                >
                > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, maaswhole
                > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > > In light of our discussion, we may have to call it a "struck
                > through
                > > planchet fragment", rather than an indent. Although if you can
                > > squeeze the word elliptical in there somehow, like "struck
                through
                > > fragment of an elliptical planchet" it sounds a little more
                unique.
                > > Not that it matters much, but proper nomenclature
                > > is important.
                > > Gee Mike, I'm surprised you didn't correct me. :)
                > >
                > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                Diamond"
                > > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                > > > I'm not sure I understand the scenario. Perhaps it's best to
                > hold
                > > > all further speculation until I examine the coin. It's also
                wise
                > > to
                > > > employ Occam's Razor whenever possible, choosing the simplest
                > > > explanation among an array of possibilities.
                > > >
                > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael
                > Delgado
                > > > <my_errors@y...> wrote:
                > > > > Since speculation is probably the previous step to the
                > > > > formulation of a hypothesis, let me suggest that the
                > > > > eliptical clad might have started as a die cap picked
                > > > > up from a previous coin. Thus might be the happening
                > > > > and the centering.
                > > > > E. of S.
                > > > > Rafael
                > > > >
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