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[Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Interesting indent

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  • maaswhole
    ... RichErrors@a... ... On second thought, maybe it s not so unlikely. See, I was thinking there was first an elliptical planchet then later it delaminated.
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 5, 2003
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      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, maaswhole
      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
      RichErrors@a...
      > wrote:
      > > I Agree , Mike 100%
      >
      > That sounds possible, but the statistical odds of that series of
      > events taking place, and then the final scrap is centered, it just
      > seems so unlikely.
      > I'd tell you my theroy, if I could come up with one.

      On second thought, maybe it's not so unlikely. See, I was thinking
      there was first an elliptical planchet then later it delaminated.
      This would mean two rare errors, but if first it delaminated, then
      bonuced around and became elliptical, it would seem to be a more
      likely outcome.
      I see mike wanted it and won it, so I hope he lets us know.
    • pwrwgndrvr
      It is not that unusual for a clad layer to come off - note the many missing clad coins available on the market. Most come off in the blanking press or the
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 5, 2003
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        It is not that unusual for a clad layer to come off - note the many
        missing clad coins available on the market. Most come off in the
        blanking press or the upset mill. A few more come off during the
        strike. Contrary to the popular misconception, most missing clad
        errors are NOT from being punched at the end of a strip where the
        clad layer ran out on one side. Most started out as fully clad
        planchets, then lost a layer as mentioned. So it is not overly rare
        to have an elliptical clad layer floating around. I have a MA qtr
        that was struck thru a multi struck elliptical clad layer. Pics may
        still be in the album somewhere and it is also available at the B&M
        auction at the ANA show, end of this month.
        btw - the evidence that dispels any dispute as to where most missing
        clads originate is as follows. If/when they come from the end of the
        strip, there will always be at least 5 (when punching qtrs) planchets
        punched out with a partial missing clad, since there is no way to
        draw a straight line across the punched strip without bisecting at
        least 5 holes. Therefore, the population of partial missing clads
        would be significant, if this was where the missing clads mostly came
        from. The fact is, they are very scarce, yet the population of
        missing clad errors is large. This large disproportion proves that
        few missing clads come from the end of the strip.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, maaswhole
        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, maaswhole
        > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
        > RichErrors@a...
        > > wrote:
        > > > I Agree , Mike 100%
        > >
        > > That sounds possible, but the statistical odds of that series of
        > > events taking place, and then the final scrap is centered, it
        just
        > > seems so unlikely.
        > > I'd tell you my theroy, if I could come up with one.
        >
        > On second thought, maybe it's not so unlikely. See, I was thinking
        > there was first an elliptical planchet then later it delaminated.
        > This would mean two rare errors, but if first it delaminated, then
        > bonuced around and became elliptical, it would seem to be a more
        > likely outcome.
        > I see mike wanted it and won it, so I hope he lets us know.
      • Mike Diamond
        I ll certainly give you all a full report. Establishing the identity of the object with absolute certainty is, of course, impossible. However, if it really is
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 5, 2003
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          I'll certainly give you all a full report. Establishing the identity
          of the object with absolute certainty is, of course, impossible.
          However, if it really is an elliptical strike-through, an elliptical
          clad layer is by far the most likely candidate.

          Still, all sorts of wierd, unidentifiable stuff ends up in the
          striking chamber. Check out Figure 7 in my on-line article
          on "invisible strikes":

          http://conecaonline.org/content/InvisibleStrikesMDiamond.html

          That nickel was struck through a thin, roughly circular object about
          the size of a dime. Its outline is too irregular for a dime clad
          layer, so I don't know what the heck it was.

          As Terry (pwrwgndrvr) indicated, the vast majority of loose clad
          layers fall off blanks or planchets during the blanking process or
          afterward. This should apply to misshapen blanks as well as normal
          blanks.

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, pwrwgndrvr
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > It is not that unusual for a clad layer to come off - note the many
          > missing clad coins available on the market. Most come off in the
          > blanking press or the upset mill. A few more come off during the
          > strike. Contrary to the popular misconception, most missing clad
          > errors are NOT from being punched at the end of a strip where the
          > clad layer ran out on one side. Most started out as fully clad
          > planchets, then lost a layer as mentioned. So it is not overly rare
          > to have an elliptical clad layer floating around. I have a MA qtr
          > that was struck thru a multi struck elliptical clad layer. Pics may
          > still be in the album somewhere and it is also available at the B&M
          > auction at the ANA show, end of this month.
          > btw - the evidence that dispels any dispute as to where most
          missing
          > clads originate is as follows. If/when they come from the end of
          the
          > strip, there will always be at least 5 (when punching qtrs)
          planchets
          > punched out with a partial missing clad, since there is no way to
          > draw a straight line across the punched strip without bisecting at
          > least 5 holes. Therefore, the population of partial missing clads
          > would be significant, if this was where the missing clads mostly
          came
          > from. The fact is, they are very scarce, yet the population of
          > missing clad errors is large. This large disproportion proves that
          > few missing clads come from the end of the strip.
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, maaswhole
          > <no_reply@y...> wrote:

          > > I see mike wanted it and won it, so I hope he lets us know.
        • Rafael Delgado
          Since speculation is probably the previous step to the formulation of a hypothesis, let me suggest that the eliptical clad might have started as a die cap
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 6, 2003
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            Since speculation is probably the previous step to the
            formulation of a hypothesis, let me suggest that the
            eliptical clad might have started as a die cap picked
            up from a previous coin. Thus might be the happening
            and the centering.
            E. of S.
            Rafael


            --- pwrwgndrvr <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
            > It is not that unusual for a clad layer to come off
            > - note the many
            > missing clad coins available on the market. Most
            > come off in the
            > blanking press or the upset mill. A few more come
            > off during the
            > strike. Contrary to the popular misconception, most
            > missing clad
            > errors are NOT from being punched at the end of a
            > strip where the
            > clad layer ran out on one side. Most started out as
            > fully clad
            > planchets, then lost a layer as mentioned. So it is
            > not overly rare
            > to have an elliptical clad layer floating around. I
            > have a MA qtr
            > that was struck thru a multi struck elliptical clad
            > layer. Pics may
            > still be in the album somewhere and it is also
            > available at the B&M
            > auction at the ANA show, end of this month.
            > btw - the evidence that dispels any dispute as to
            > where most missing
            > clads originate is as follows. If/when they come
            > from the end of the
            > strip, there will always be at least 5 (when
            > punching qtrs) planchets
            > punched out with a partial missing clad, since there
            > is no way to
            > draw a straight line across the punched strip
            > without bisecting at
            > least 5 holes. Therefore, the population of partial
            > missing clads
            > would be significant, if this was where the missing
            > clads mostly came
            > from. The fact is, they are very scarce, yet the
            > population of
            > missing clad errors is large. This large
            > disproportion proves that
            > few missing clads come from the end of the strip.
            >
            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
            > maaswhole
            > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > > --- In
            > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
            > maaswhole
            > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > > > --- In
            > errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
            > > RichErrors@a...
            > > > wrote:
            > > > > I Agree , Mike 100%
            > > >
            > > > That sounds possible, but the statistical odds
            > of that series of
            > > > events taking place, and then the final scrap is
            > centered, it
            > just
            > > > seems so unlikely.
            > > > I'd tell you my theroy, if I could come up with
            > one.
            > >
            > > On second thought, maybe it's not so unlikely.
            > See, I was thinking
            > > there was first an elliptical planchet then later
            > it delaminated.
            > > This would mean two rare errors, but if first it
            > delaminated, then
            > > bonuced around and became elliptical, it would
            > seem to be a more
            > > likely outcome.
            > > I see mike wanted it and won it, so I hope he lets
            > us know.
            >
            >


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          • Mike Diamond
            I m not sure I understand the scenario. Perhaps it s best to hold all further speculation until I examine the coin. It s also wise to employ Occam s Razor
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 6, 2003
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              I'm not sure I understand the scenario. Perhaps it's best to hold
              all further speculation until I examine the coin. It's also wise to
              employ Occam's Razor whenever possible, choosing the simplest
              explanation among an array of possibilities.

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael Delgado
              <my_errors@y...> wrote:
              > Since speculation is probably the previous step to the
              > formulation of a hypothesis, let me suggest that the
              > eliptical clad might have started as a die cap picked
              > up from a previous coin. Thus might be the happening
              > and the centering.
              > E. of S.
              > Rafael
              >
            • maaswhole
              In light of our discussion, we may have to call it a struck through planchet fragment , rather than an indent. Although if you can squeeze the word elliptical
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 6, 2003
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                In light of our discussion, we may have to call it a "struck through
                planchet fragment", rather than an indent. Although if you can
                squeeze the word elliptical in there somehow, like "struck through
                fragment of an elliptical planchet" it sounds a little more unique.
                Not that it matters much, but proper nomenclature
                is important.
                Gee Mike, I'm surprised you didn't correct me. :)

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                > I'm not sure I understand the scenario. Perhaps it's best to hold
                > all further speculation until I examine the coin. It's also wise
                to
                > employ Occam's Razor whenever possible, choosing the simplest
                > explanation among an array of possibilities.
                >
                > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael Delgado
                > <my_errors@y...> wrote:
                > > Since speculation is probably the previous step to the
                > > formulation of a hypothesis, let me suggest that the
                > > eliptical clad might have started as a die cap picked
                > > up from a previous coin. Thus might be the happening
                > > and the centering.
                > > E. of S.
                > > Rafael
                > >
              • maaswhole
                Speaking of struck through planchet fragment, I think that s what I got here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3032023588 Sold as a
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 8, 2003
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                  Speaking of struck through planchet fragment, I think that's what I
                  got here:

                  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3032023588

                  Sold as a lamination, and it looks like one because of the
                  striations, but normal weight and normal or higher than normal
                  presure in the indented area, along with finning of the rim there
                  too, all lead me to believe it was struck through a laminated
                  planchet fragment. I figured that because the striations match what a
                  split planchet look like.
                  There are also some marks that were struck into the area which are
                  faint and not visible in the scan, it almost looks like the "E" from
                  one cent on a cent reverse, but I might be seeing things.
                  Any thoughts?


                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, maaswhole
                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > In light of our discussion, we may have to call it a "struck
                  through
                  > planchet fragment", rather than an indent. Although if you can
                  > squeeze the word elliptical in there somehow, like "struck through
                  > fragment of an elliptical planchet" it sounds a little more unique.
                  > Not that it matters much, but proper nomenclature
                  > is important.
                  > Gee Mike, I'm surprised you didn't correct me. :)
                  >
                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                  > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                  > > I'm not sure I understand the scenario. Perhaps it's best to
                  hold
                  > > all further speculation until I examine the coin. It's also wise
                  > to
                  > > employ Occam's Razor whenever possible, choosing the simplest
                  > > explanation among an array of possibilities.
                  > >
                  > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael
                  Delgado
                  > > <my_errors@y...> wrote:
                  > > > Since speculation is probably the previous step to the
                  > > > formulation of a hypothesis, let me suggest that the
                  > > > eliptical clad might have started as a die cap picked
                  > > > up from a previous coin. Thus might be the happening
                  > > > and the centering.
                  > > > E. of S.
                  > > > Rafael
                  > > >
                • Mike Diamond
                  You are substantially correct. I believe that this coin was indented by a split planchet. Whether it was split-before-strike or split- after-strike is
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 8, 2003
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                    You are substantially correct. I believe that this coin was indented
                    by a split planchet. Whether it was split-before-strike or split-
                    after-strike is anybody's guess, as the striated face was struck into
                    the coin.

                    I can't evaluate the possible faint letter trace, but it would be
                    unlikely. A faint, isolated letter would indicate a very weak
                    strike. A split planchet with such a weak strike would have to be
                    quite thin (assuming everything else about the strike was normal).
                    And a thin planchet would have let through a strong ghost image in
                    the indented area. I see hardly any ghost image of the obverse
                    design in the indented area.

                    Regardless, it's a nice find.

                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, maaswhole
                    <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > Speaking of struck through planchet fragment, I think that's what I
                    > got here:
                    >
                    > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3032023588
                    >
                    > Sold as a lamination, and it looks like one because of the
                    > striations, but normal weight and normal or higher than normal
                    > presure in the indented area, along with finning of the rim there
                    > too, all lead me to believe it was struck through a laminated
                    > planchet fragment. I figured that because the striations match what
                    a
                    > split planchet look like.
                    > There are also some marks that were struck into the area which are
                    > faint and not visible in the scan, it almost looks like the "E"
                    from
                    > one cent on a cent reverse, but I might be seeing things.
                    > Any thoughts?
                    >
                  • pwrwgndrvr
                    I agree with that. Shape is the same as if indented by a planchet. I would not expect a lamination to so closely resemble a planchet. The other observations
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 8, 2003
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                      I agree with that. Shape is the same as if indented by a planchet. I
                      would not expect a lamination to so closely resemble a planchet. The
                      other observations definitely support that conclusion too.

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, maaswhole
                      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      > Speaking of struck through planchet fragment, I think that's what I
                      > got here:
                      >
                      > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3032023588
                      >
                      > Sold as a lamination, and it looks like one because of the
                      > striations, but normal weight and normal or higher than normal
                      > presure in the indented area, along with finning of the rim there
                      > too, all lead me to believe it was struck through a laminated
                      > planchet fragment. I figured that because the striations match what
                      a
                      > split planchet look like.
                      > There are also some marks that were struck into the area which are
                      > faint and not visible in the scan, it almost looks like the "E"
                      from
                      > one cent on a cent reverse, but I might be seeing things.
                      > Any thoughts?
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, maaswhole
                      > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      > > In light of our discussion, we may have to call it a "struck
                      > through
                      > > planchet fragment", rather than an indent. Although if you can
                      > > squeeze the word elliptical in there somehow, like "struck
                      through
                      > > fragment of an elliptical planchet" it sounds a little more
                      unique.
                      > > Not that it matters much, but proper nomenclature
                      > > is important.
                      > > Gee Mike, I'm surprised you didn't correct me. :)
                      > >
                      > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                      Diamond"
                      > > <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                      > > > I'm not sure I understand the scenario. Perhaps it's best to
                      > hold
                      > > > all further speculation until I examine the coin. It's also
                      wise
                      > > to
                      > > > employ Occam's Razor whenever possible, choosing the simplest
                      > > > explanation among an array of possibilities.
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Rafael
                      > Delgado
                      > > > <my_errors@y...> wrote:
                      > > > > Since speculation is probably the previous step to the
                      > > > > formulation of a hypothesis, let me suggest that the
                      > > > > eliptical clad might have started as a die cap picked
                      > > > > up from a previous coin. Thus might be the happening
                      > > > > and the centering.
                      > > > > E. of S.
                      > > > > Rafael
                      > > > >
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