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Jon Sullivan Error #2

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  • colonial_john_c4
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/251502039130?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
    Message 1 of 14 , May 6, 2014
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      http://www.ebay.com/itm/251502039130?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649


      No big deal but it was confirmed by SEM/EDS as nickel and not silver (wire?).


      JPL


    • Michael Evanchik
      well he did say silver metal. and almost certainly silver. since we were striking silver coins at the time, I can see why. but we were also striking nickels,
      Message 2 of 14 , May 6, 2014
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        well he did say silver metal. and almost certainly silver. since we were striking silver coins at the time, I can see why. but we were also striking nickels, so there you have it.
        On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 9:31 PM, "johnmenc@..." <johnmenc@...> wrote:
         

        No big deal but it was confirmed by SEM/EDS as nickel and not silver (wire?).

        JPL



      • colonial_john_c4
        Absolutely - in the field of contemporary counterfeits specifically for the Kleeberg Counterfeit 2 Reales - see Wnuck Collection Stacks/Bowers November 2012 C4
        Message 3 of 14 , May 7, 2014
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          Absolutely - in the field of contemporary counterfeits specifically for the Kleeberg Counterfeit 2 Reales - see Wnuck Collection Stacks/Bowers November 2012 C4 Auction types - all the pieces FOR YEARS were reported as brass (Cu/Zn) but never bronze (Cu/Sn) until I started to do XRF analysis on the brass types and found some to be bronze - no way a collector can tell without scientific instrumentation - this was just a FYI - as with the solder lamination Peace Dollar example SUGGESTING solder surface contamination caused those HUGE lamination rim to rim streaks ...

           

          John Lorenzo

          United States

        • colonial_john_c4
          One last point - almost every month I find errors or lack of proper classification of materials - here is another one - next time someone says they have a die
          Message 4 of 14 , May 7, 2014
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            One last point - almost every month I find errors or lack of proper classification of materials - here is another one - next time someone says they have a die trial in lead - they probably do - but most of the time the lead is mixed with antimony for more tensile strenth when testing the dies (lead alone is obviously too soft) ... in over 100 examples I never seen an almost pure lead die trial ... the antimony is usually ~5% ... there are blatant shortcoming all over the place ... simply because numismatics is PREDOMINATLY history and very very little mateiral analysis and SCIENCE.

            I admit ... most people could care less of the antimony significance in lead die trials ... <VVBG>. Actually Material Science has helped me alot recently ... I developed a copper coin cleaner leaps and bounds ABOVE the original Coin Care ... yep ... <VVBG>. Don't ask ... here ... privately ... OK.

             

            JPL

          • dermestid
            I just hope that one day hand-held XRF machines will be available at a price affordable to the general public. Probably not, though, as these devices surely
            Message 5 of 14 , May 7, 2014
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              I just hope that one day hand-held XRF machines will be available at a price affordable to the general public.  Probably not, though, as these devices surely pose significant hazards for little kids, drunks, foolish teenagers, etc.
               
              In a message dated 5/7/2014 6:38:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time, johnmenc@... writes:
               

              One last point - almost every month I find errors or lack of proper classification of materials - here is another one - next time someone says they have a die trial in lead - they probably do - but most of the time the lead is mixed with antimony for more tensile strenth when testing the dies (lead alone is obviously too soft) ... in over 100 examples I never seen an almost pure lead die trial ... the antimony is usually ~5% ... there are blatant shortcoming all over the place ... simply because numismatics is PREDOMINATLY history and very very little mateiral analysis and SCIENCE.

              I admit ... most people could care less of the antimony significance in lead die trials ... <VVBG>. Actually Material Science has helped me alot recently ... I developed a copper coin cleaner leaps and bounds ABOVE the original Coin Care ... yep ... <VVBG>. Don't ask ... here ... privately ... OK.

               

              JPL

            • colonial_john_c4
              Maybe another 50 years - since right now you are talking $17,500 or so for a reliable one ... however as far as I know you can t analyze a coin through plastic
              Message 6 of 14 , May 7, 2014
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                Maybe another 50 years - since right now you are talking $17,500 or so for a reliable one ... however as far as I know you can't analyze a coin through plastic (slab). I heard some people claim yes - but the results were in error - its not possible IMO due to interference. This may change in the future ... or may be possible now? I have yet to see it myself or be convinced.

                Mike - I am not sure if I told you but I am working on a real big project now to determine if the St. Patrick Copper (Colonial Coin Issue) were struck at the Tower Mint or at the Vatican ... here the coin needs to be sliced in half, edge polished/acid etched and the grain size (alloy arrangment at the microscopic level) viewed. Each manufacturing operation has its own SIGNATURE microstructure. Sometimes these differences can't be isolated ... we shall see ... a much more difficult undertaking than a quick non-destructive X-Ray surface shot ... of some nickel scrap making its way to a semi-key Lincoln Cent surface <BG>.

                 

                JPL

              • dermestid
                Colonial coppers are not my forte, but it sounds like an interesting study. Hopefully these coins are relatively abundant and inexpensive. It would be a
                Message 7 of 14 , May 7, 2014
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                  Colonial coppers are not my forte, but it sounds like an interesting study.  Hopefully these coins are relatively abundant and inexpensive.  It would be a shame to bisect a rarity.  I look forward to the result of your analysis.
                   
                  In a message dated 5/7/2014 8:03:05 A.M. Central Daylight Time, johnmenc@... writes:
                   

                  Maybe another 50 years - since right now you are talking $17,500 or so for a reliable one ... however as far as I know you can't analyze a coin through plastic (slab). I heard some people claim yes - but the results were in error - its not possible IMO due to interference. This may change in the future ... or may be possible now? I have yet to see it myself or be convinced.

                  Mike - I am not sure if I told you but I am working on a real big project now to determine if the St. Patrick Copper (Colonial Coin Issue) were struck at the Tower Mint or at the Vatican ... here the coin needs to be sliced in half, edge polished/acid etched and the grain size (alloy arrangment at the microscopic level) viewed. Each manufacturing operation has its own SIGNATURE microstructure. Sometimes these differences can't be isolated ... we shall see ... a much more difficult undertaking than a quick non-destructive X-Ray surface shot ... of some nickel scrap making its way t o a semi-key Lincoln Cent surface <BG>.

                   

                  JPL

                • colonial_john_c4
                  Its only a benchmark study due to the expense of late 17thC Tower Mint Charles II 1/2d s & Italian Papal State 17thC coppers - St. Pats are ALSO very
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 7, 2014
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                    Its only a benchmark study due to the expense of late 17thC Tower Mint Charles II 1/2d's & Italian Papal State  17thC coppers - St. Pats are ALSO very expensive - but someone in California is donating a singular $100 AG example ... this will take months ... will report in September 2014. Yep ~ $500-600 in coins to be cut up/polished/acid etched ... all numismatists are a little crazy ... <VVBG>. Its probably one ofthe greatest mysteries in this realm of U.S. Colonial Coin collecting ... for this tab ... its worth a look in this BLACK BOX that researchers have been going in CIRCLES for ~ 300 years.

                     

                    JPL

                  • dermestid
                    Here s the Coin World article on the Peace dollar contaminated by solder:
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 22 12:37 PM
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                    • sherwood_park_pennies
                      Very nice.... any chance you can send me a PDF copy of your paper Mike, for my own files?? Roger --
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 22 1:05 PM
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                        Very nice.... any chance you can send me a PDF copy of your paper Mike, for my own files??

                        Roger
                        --
                      • dermestid
                        I can ask for one from my editor. I ll get back to you with his response. Mike In a message dated 7/22/2014 3:05:05 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 22 1:57 PM
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                          I can ask for one from my editor.  I'll get back to you with his response.
                           
                          Mike
                           
                          In a message dated 7/22/2014 3:05:05 P.M. Central Daylight Time, errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com writes:
                           

                          Very nice.... any chance you can send me a PDF copy of your paper Mike, for my own files??


                          Roger
                          --

                        • colonial_john_c4
                          Good job - after the SEM/EDS & XRF study on the St. Patrick Copper Coinage currently till October hopefully we can do more XRF error studies ... like to
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 22 3:09 PM
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                            Good job - after the SEM/EDS & XRF study on the St. Patrick Copper Coinage currently till October hopefully we can do more XRF error studies ... like to confirm manganese is the culprit in Jeff Nickel WWII lamination's via SEM/EDS.

                            John Lorenzo
                            Numismatist
                            United States
                          • sherwood_park_pennies
                            Anytime you guys want something checked out with the instruments in my research institution - don t hesitate to ask me... for me, as a scientist, I understand
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jul 22 9:30 PM
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                              Anytime you guys want something checked out with the instruments in my research institution - don't hesitate to ask me... for me, as a scientist, I understand the passion for finding answers...
                            • colonial_john_c4
                              Contact me privately ... John Lorenzo
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jul 23 3:03 PM
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                                Contact me privately ...

                                John Lorenzo
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