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Brainteaser in an NGC slab

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  • dermestid
    I just won this item from Jon Sullivan. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=291050320999
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 13, 2014
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      I just won this item from Jon Sullivan.

       

      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=291050320999

       

      You can ignore NGC's determination.  There is no "double indent", although I agree there is a small off-center uniface strike.  What NGC called a double indent is indeed an error, but your task is to figure out what kind. Jon already knows the answer as does Jeff Ylitalo.

    • colonial_john_c4
      I am assuming that middle coin is the CLUE .
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 13, 2014
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        I am assuming that middle coin is the CLUE <BG>.

      • dermestid
        Yes. In a message dated 1/13/2014 8:39:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, johnmenc@optonline.net writes: I am assuming that middle coin is the CLUE .
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 13, 2014
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          Yes.
           
          In a message dated 1/13/2014 8:39:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, johnmenc@... writes:
           

          I am assuming that middle coin is the CLUE <BG>.

        • colonial_john_c4
          Well if they can t get a Sheffield CC8R Heritage Sale Eric P. Newman coin right its no surprise they would blunder on this one ...
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 13, 2014
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            Well if they can't get a Sheffield CC8R Heritage Sale Eric P. Newman coin  right its no surprise they would blunder on this one ... <BG>

          • dermestid
            Okay, here are the first two hints. 1) One surface has been pushed in and the other pushed out. 2) Both surfaces show no difference in texture from the
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 14, 2014
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              Okay, here are the first two hints. 1) One surface has been pushed in and the other pushed out. 2) Both surfaces show no difference in texture from the unaffected portion of the planchet.

            • dermestid
              Okay, it seems nobody wants to play. Either that, or everyone s completely stumped. So here s the answer: The unstruck portion of the planchet has an
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 14, 2014
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                Okay, it seems nobody wants to play.  Either that, or everyone's completely stumped.  So here's the answer: The unstruck portion of the planchet has an incomplete punch (incomplete clip).  When the punch is this deep, it will look very different from an incomplete punch on a fully-struck coin.


                Recall that the blanking die (punch) forces its way through the coin metal strip, driving the blank through a hole in a perforated base plate.  If the punch isn't completed, the half-formed blank is pushed in on the upper face of the coin metal strip and pushed-out on the lower face of the coin metal strip.  That's exactly what we see here.  Had the planchet been fully struck, the step-down on the upper face and the step-up on the lower face would have been pressed down, and all you'd see are complementary crescentic incisions on both faces.


                This is the first incomplete punch I recall seeing on an off-center cent or a blank planchet.  As such, it's highly instructive.

              • gandara58
                Thank you I appreciate it. It took me a while to come across an error. Lol thanks again.
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 15, 2014
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                  Thank you I appreciate it. It took me a while to come across an error. Lol thanks again.
                • sherwood_park_pennies
                  I was one of the bidders sniped out at the end... nice catch Mike.... Roger --
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 15, 2014
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                    I was one of the bidders sniped out at the end... nice catch Mike....


                    Roger

                    --

                  • art gandara
                    Ok, thanks for the info, my next question is. For the 1967 quarter worth on getting it certified, and if so how do I go about doing that? Thanks
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 15, 2014
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                      Ok, thanks for the info, my next question is. For the 1967 quarter worth on getting it certified, and if so how do I go about doing that? Thanks
                    • stevenamills
                      Mike, Do all (or most) incomplete punches start out like this and have you ever seen a simple example of just a blank planchet with the partial punch?
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 16, 2014
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                        Mike, Do all (or most) incomplete punches start out like this and have you ever seen a simple example of just a blank planchet with the partial punch?
                      • dermestid
                        Unless the punch mark is extremely light, this is how all incomplete punch errors should look when encountered on an unstruck planchet (or the unstruck
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 16, 2014
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                          Unless the punch mark is extremely light, this is how all incomplete punch errors should look when encountered on an unstruck planchet (or the unstruck portion of an off-center coin).  I had not seen one before, but one can predict the appearance based on the manner in which blanks are punched out.
                           
                          Naturally, as soon as a planchet with an incomplete punch is struck, the stepped appearance disappears and all you're left with are two curved incisions on opposing faces.
                           
                          In a message dated 1/16/2014 3:49:37 P.M. Central Standard Time, millsteven@... writes:
                           

                          Mike, Do all (or most) incomplete punches start out like this and have you ever seen a simple example of just a blank planchet with the partial punch?

                        • art gandara
                          On the reverse side of the coin. Where it appears to be marked in the same are of the obverse. It's like a smooth mirror image on the reverse side. Of the
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jan 17, 2014
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                            On the reverse side of the coin. Where it appears to be marked in the same are of the obverse. It's like a smooth mirror image on the reverse side. Of the coin.


                            From: mdia1@... <mdia1@...>;
                            To: <errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com>;
                            Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] RE: Brainteaser in an NGC slab
                            Sent: Thu, Jan 16, 2014 9:53:29 PM

                             

                            Unless the punch mark is extremely light, this is how all incomplete punch errors should look when encountered on an unstruck planchet (or the unstruck portion of an off-center coin).  I had not seen one before, but one can predict the appearance based on the manner in which blanks are punched out.
                             
                            Naturally, as soon as a planchet with an incomplete punch is struck, the stepped appearance disappears and all you're left with are two curved incisions on opposing faces.
                             
                            In a message dated 1/16/2014 3:49:37 P.M. Central Standard Time, millsteven@... writes:
                             

                            Mike, Do all (or most) incomplete punches start out like this and have you ever seen a simple example of just a blank planchet with the partial punch?

                          • sherwood_park_pennies
                            One thing has been bugging me about this error.... If this is an error created at the blank punching stage, which creates Type 1 planchets, how does it acquire
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jan 17, 2014
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                              One thing has been bugging me about this error.... If this is an error created at the blank punching stage, which creates Type 1 planchets, how does it acquire a rim?? Your example looks rimmed (Type 2 blank) and any incomplete or partial clip that I have, occurs on a struck coin with a rim. I just can't imagine this thing making it through an upsetting mill to put the rim on the coins.... any thoughts??


                              Roger

                              --





                            • dermestid
                              There s no reason why a blank with an incomplete punch should bypass the upset mill. So the presence of a proto-rim is expected. In a message dated
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jan 17, 2014
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                                There's no reason why a blank with an incomplete punch should bypass the upset mill.  So the presence of a proto-rim is expected.
                                 
                                In a message dated 1/17/2014 2:03:50 P.M. Central Standard Time, sherwood.park.pennies@... writes:
                                 

                                One thing has been bugging me about this error.... If this is an error created at the blank punching stage, which creates Type 1 planchets, how does it acquire a rim?? Your example looks rimmed (Type 2 blank) and any incomplete or partial clip that I have, occurs on a struck coin with a rim. I just can't imagine this thing making it through an upsetting mill to put the rim on the coins.... any thoughts??


                                Roger

                                --





                              • dermestid
                                With the coin in hand, I can provide some additional details. The incomplete punch is very deep and two halves were on the verge of separating. The oval
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jan 22, 2014
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                                  With the coin in hand, I can provide some additional details.  The incomplete punch is very deep and two halves were on the verge of separating.  The oval portion was damaged after the blank was punched out, possibly in the upset mill.  Pressure was applied at the two points of the ellipse, warping this portion of the blank so that one face is concave and the other convex.  Furthermore, the oval and crescentic portions of the blank come together at an angle of 30 degrees -- another indicator of damage.  I can't be entirely sure that the damage is pre-strike; it's possible that it occurred after the coin left the press.  There is a little bit of die-struck obverse design on the off-center uniface strike in the form of the OD of GOD.

                                  I'll be writing this up for Coin World some time in the next six weeks.
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