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Two remarkable double-denomination errors

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  • dermestid
    From Fred Weinberg s inexhaustible bag of marvels comes two dual-country double-denomination errors. Each consists of a national design struck over an
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 19, 2013
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      From Fred Weinberg's inexhaustible bag of marvels comes two dual-country double-denomination errors.  Each consists of a national design struck over an off-metal error bearing the design of another country.  The original planchet, however, corresponds to the planchet normally associated with the overstrike.  Mind-twisting.


      http://www.ebay.com/itm/190962067801

      http://www.ebay.com/itm/390696408870

      The only similar US error that comes to mind is the Washington quarter design struck over a nickel design struck twice on a cent planchet.


    • dermestid
      The Costa Rica-over-Israel design is also the only double-denomination error I ve encountered in which neither strike is that of the country who did the
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 19, 2013
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        The Costa Rica-over-Israel design is also the only double-denomination error I've encountered in which neither strike is that of the country who did the minting (Canada). 



        ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

        From Fred Weinberg's inexhaustible bag of marvels comes two dual-country double-denomination errors.  Each consists of a national design struck over an off-metal error bearing the design of another country.  The original planchet, however, corresponds to the planchet normally associated with the overstrike.  Mind-twisting.

        http://www.ebay.com/itm/190962067801

        http://www.ebay.com/itm/390696408870

        The only similar US error that comes to mind is the Washington quarter design struck over a nickel design struck twice on a cent planchet.


      • sherwood_park_pennies
        I had that 1983 cent on my watch list, but I forgot about the auction ending today. I may not have won, but I know I would have pushed that bid up considerably
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 19, 2013
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          I had that 1983 cent on my watch list, but I forgot about the auction ending today. I may not have won, but I know I would have pushed that bid up considerably higher.... shame on me for not entering a snipe bid...


          I think it is a very cool error...



          ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

          The Costa Rica-over-Israel design is also the only double-denomination error I've encountered in which neither strike is that of the country who did the minting (Canada). 



          ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

          From Fred Weinberg's inexhaustible bag of marvels comes two dual-country double-denomination errors.  Each consists of a national design struck over an off-metal error bearing the design of another country.  The original planchet, however, corresponds to the planchet normally associated with the overstrike.  Mind-twisting.

          http://www.ebay.com/itm/190962067801

          http://www.ebay.com/itm/390696408870

          The only similar US error that comes to mind is the Washington quarter design struck over a nickel design struck twice on a cent planchet.


        • dermestid
          What I find puzzling is that both coins appear to have been struck in-collar. One would think that the 10 shekel strike would have expanded the planchet to
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 19, 2013
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            What I find puzzling is that both coins appear to have been struck in-collar.  One would think that the 10 shekel strike would have expanded the planchet to such an extent that it would not have been able to fit back into the collar for the final strike.

            Perhaps the Israel strikes were not hard enough to generate any appreciable expansion.  Perhaps each coin was sent back through the upsetting mill and were thereby reduced once again to an appropriate diameter.  Or perhaps each coin was resized (cut-down) after the Israel strike.  The latter strategy would have reduced the coin's weight.  Perhaps Fred weighed each coin prior to encapsulation.  What say you, Fred?

             



            ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <sherwood.park.pennies@...> wrote:

            I had that 1983 cent on my watch list, but I forgot about the auction ending today. I may not have won, but I know I would have pushed that bid up considerably higher.... shame on me for not entering a snipe bid...


            I think it is a very cool error...



            ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

            The Costa Rica-over-Israel design is also the only double-denomination error I've encountered in which neither strike is that of the country who did the minting (Canada). 



            ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

            From Fred Weinberg's inexhaustible bag of marvels comes two dual-country double-denomination errors.  Each consists of a national design struck over an off-metal error bearing the design of another country.  The original planchet, however, corresponds to the planchet normally associated with the overstrike.  Mind-twisting.

            http://www.ebay.com/itm/190962067801

            http://www.ebay.com/itm/390696408870

            The only similar US error that comes to mind is the Washington quarter design struck over a nickel design struck twice on a cent planchet.


          • dermestid
            In my view, the fact that neither coin appears to have been broadstruck increases the likelihood that both are assisted errors. They re still darn
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 19, 2013
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              In my view, the fact that neither coin appears to have been broadstruck increases the likelihood that both are assisted errors.  They're still darn interesting, as I've not seen any other assisted errors that reflect this chain of events (again, with the exception of that US quarter I mentioned).



              ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

              What I find puzzling is that both coins appear to have been struck in-collar.  One would think that the 10 shekel strike would have expanded the planchet to such an extent that it would not have been able to fit back into the collar for the final strike.

              Perhaps the Israel strikes were not hard enough to generate any appreciable expansion.  Perhaps each coin was sent back through the upsetting mill and were thereby reduced once again to an appropriate diameter.  Or perhaps each coin was resized (cut-down) after the Israel strike.  The latter strategy would have reduced the coin's weight.  Perhaps Fred weighed each coin prior to encapsulation.  What say you, Fred?

               



              ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <sherwood.park.pennies@...> wrote:

              I had that 1983 cent on my watch list, but I forgot about the auction ending today. I may not have won, but I know I would have pushed that bid up considerably higher.... shame on me for not entering a snipe bid...


              I think it is a very cool error...



              ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

              The Costa Rica-over-Israel design is also the only double-denomination error I've encountered in which neither strike is that of the country who did the minting (Canada). 



              ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

              From Fred Weinberg's inexhaustible bag of marvels comes two dual-country double-denomination errors.  Each consists of a national design struck over an off-metal error bearing the design of another country.  The original planchet, however, corresponds to the planchet normally associated with the overstrike.  Mind-twisting.

              http://www.ebay.com/itm/190962067801

              http://www.ebay.com/itm/390696408870

              The only similar US error that comes to mind is the Washington quarter design struck over a nickel design struck twice on a cent planchet.


            • dermestid
              It turns out that Fred did weigh these coins when he was trying to figure out the identity of the planchet. So I must assume that the planchet identification
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 19, 2013
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                 It turns out that Fred did weigh these coins when he was trying to figure out the identity of the planchet.  So I must assume that the planchet identification on the slab is correct.  That eliminates the "cut-down" scenario and the possibility that we're dealing with planchets other than what was described.  Here's Fred's detailed response:

                 

                I slabbed these coins about 7 years ago or so
                when I bought the whole group 'raw' from the son
                of an Israel Mint supervisor.....
                 
                I remember that it took me awhile to figure out the
                coin strikes, go to the Krause book to look up
                weights, and identify the planchet from that (and/or
                the fact that there was a strike on the piece already,
                before the Israeli strike).
                 
                Unless the PCGS tag has the weight (some do), I didn't
                record/save the weights....
                 
                I don't think they were cut-down between strikes....I
                was told by the 'son' that when other Mints (like Canada)
                found errors, they gave them to the 'father' as keepsakes.
                 
                (It's possible the father found them in the numerous bags
                of coins delivered from the Mints to Israel, just like other
                errors have been found, but that's what I was told).
                 


                ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                In my view, the fact that neither coin appears to have been broadstruck increases the likelihood that both are assisted errors.  They're still darn interesting, as I've not seen any other assisted errors that reflect this chain of events (again, with the exception of that US quarter I mentioned).



                ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                What I find puzzling is that both coins appear to have been struck in-collar.  One would think that the 10 shekel strike would have expanded the planchet to such an extent that it would not have been able to fit back into the collar for the final strike.

                Perhaps the Israel strikes were not hard enough to generate any appreciable expansion.  Perhaps each coin was sent back through the upsetting mill and were thereby reduced once again to an appropriate diameter.  Or perhaps each coin was resized (cut-down) after the Israel strike.  The latter strategy would have reduced the coin's weight.  Perhaps Fred weighed each coin prior to encapsulation.  What say you, Fred?

                 



                ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <sherwood.park.pennies@...> wrote:

                I had that 1983 cent on my watch list, but I forgot about the auction ending today. I may not have won, but I know I would have pushed that bid up considerably higher.... shame on me for not entering a snipe bid...


                I think it is a very cool error...



                ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                The Costa Rica-over-Israel design is also the only double-denomination error I've encountered in which neither strike is that of the country who did the minting (Canada). 



                ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                From Fred Weinberg's inexhaustible bag of marvels comes two dual-country double-denomination errors.  Each consists of a national design struck over an off-metal error bearing the design of another country.  The original planchet, however, corresponds to the planchet normally associated with the overstrike.  Mind-twisting.

                http://www.ebay.com/itm/190962067801

                http://www.ebay.com/itm/390696408870

                The only similar US error that comes to mind is the Washington quarter design struck over a nickel design struck twice on a cent planchet.


              • jylitalo
                Very interesting error coins. I certainly enjoyed the twists. I think either of the two errors are absolute winners. The one dual country/double denomination
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 20, 2013
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                  Very interesting error coins. I certainly enjoyed the twists. I think either of the two errors are absolute winners. 


                  The one dual country/double denomination error I have in my collection I can ascertain by weight and color (an already struck Argentina 25 centavos over-struck by Chilean 50 pesos dies). I'm still working on an article for it. It's interesting in that a normal 50 pesos is muti-sided (10 sides) and the 25c from Argentina is circular with a reeded edge...not much expansion in the 50 pesos striking chamber occurred as even the reeding appears full without any flattening...the 25c is only slightly smaller in diameter 24.2mm, while the 50 pesos is 25mm. 


                  I haven't been ebaying lately so thanks for posting the results here, Mike D.



                  ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                   It turns out that Fred did weigh these coins when he was trying to figure out the identity of the planchet.  So I must assume that the planchet identification on the slab is correct.  That eliminates the "cut-down" scenario and the possibility that we're dealing with planchets other than what was described.  Here's Fred's detailed response:

                   

                  I slabbed these coins about 7 years ago or so
                  when I bought the whole group 'raw' from the son
                  of an Israel Mint supervisor.....
                   
                  I remember that it took me awhile to figure out the
                  coin strikes, go to the Krause book to look up
                  weights, and identify the planchet from that (and/or
                  the fact that there was a strike on the piece already,
                  before the Israeli strike).
                   
                  Unless the PCGS tag has the weight (some do), I didn't
                  record/save the weights....
                   
                  I don't think they were cut-down between strikes....I
                  was told by the 'son' that when other Mints (like Canada)
                  found errors, they gave them to the 'father' as keepsakes.
                   
                  (It's possible the father found them in the numerous bags
                  of coins delivered from the Mints to Israel, just like other
                  errors have been found, but that's what I was told).
                   


                  ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                  In my view, the fact that neither coin appears to have been broadstruck increases the likelihood that both are assisted errors.  They're still darn interesting, as I've not seen any other assisted errors that reflect this chain of events (again, with the exception of that US quarter I mentioned).



                  ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                  What I find puzzling is that both coins appear to have been struck in-collar.  One would think that the 10 shekel strike would have expanded the planchet to such an extent that it would not have been able to fit back into the collar for the final strike.

                  Perhaps the Israel strikes were not hard enough to generate any appreciable expansion.  Perhaps each coin was sent back through the upsetting mill and were thereby reduced once again to an appropriate diameter.  Or perhaps each coin was resized (cut-down) after the Israel strike.  The latter strategy would have reduced the coin's weight.  Perhaps Fred weighed each coin prior to encapsulation.  What say you, Fred?

                   



                  ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <sherwood.park.pennies@...> wrote:

                  I had that 1983 cent on my watch list, but I forgot about the auction ending today. I may not have won, but I know I would have pushed that bid up considerably higher.... shame on me for not entering a snipe bid...


                  I think it is a very cool error...



                  ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                  The Costa Rica-over-Israel design is also the only double-denomination error I've encountered in which neither strike is that of the country who did the minting (Canada). 



                  ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                  From Fred Weinberg's inexhaustible bag of marvels comes two dual-country double-denomination errors.  Each consists of a national design struck over an off-metal error bearing the design of another country.  The original planchet, however, corresponds to the planchet normally associated with the overstrike.  Mind-twisting.

                  http://www.ebay.com/itm/190962067801

                  http://www.ebay.com/itm/390696408870

                  The only similar US error that comes to mind is the Washington quarter design struck over a nickel design struck twice on a cent planchet.


                • jylitalo
                  I ve posted two images to the Default Album of the 25c from Argentina over-struck by 50p from Chile dated 2009. I understand it s a black mark for the
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 20, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I've posted two images to the Default Album of the 25c from Argentina over-struck by 50p from Chile dated 2009.
                    I understand it's a 'black mark' for the Chilean mint' with their history of assisted errors and it has been pointed without too much emphasis by Mike D. (kindly I might add) when taking the dual country factor into consideration, (meaning the error coin not actually being struck by either of the dual countries is very rare if not unheard of), but how often are dual country double denomination encountered anyway?....It's a certain rarity either way in my experience (assisted or not).
                    ssoooooo....there you have it.....BTW the 25c weighs 5.40 grams which is an exact match on my jewelers scale. A normal 50p from Chile weighs 7.0 grams.
                    Investigative work is best done with a raw error with every detail being annotated before being entombed in a third party slab. Take note y'all.

                    Jeff Ylitalo 



                    ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                    Very interesting error coins. I certainly enjoyed the twists. I think either of the two errors are absolute winners. 


                    The one dual country/double denomination error I have in my collection I can ascertain by weight and color (an already struck Argentina 25 centavos over-struck by Chilean 50 pesos dies). I'm still working on an article for it. It's interesting in that a normal 50 pesos is muti-sided (10 sides) and the 25c from Argentina is circular with a reeded edge...not much expansion in the 50 pesos striking chamber occurred as even the reeding appears full without any flattening...the 25c is only slightly smaller in diameter 24.2mm, while the 50 pesos is 25mm. 


                    I haven't been ebaying lately so thanks for posting the results here, Mike D.



                    ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                     It turns out that Fred did weigh these coins when he was trying to figure out the identity of the planchet.  So I must assume that the planchet identification on the slab is correct.  That eliminates the "cut-down" scenario and the possibility that we're dealing with planchets other than what was described.  Here's Fred's detailed response:

                     

                    I slabbed these coins about 7 years ago or so
                    when I bought the whole group 'raw' from the son
                    of an Israel Mint supervisor.....
                     
                    I remember that it took me awhile to figure out the
                    coin strikes, go to the Krause book to look up
                    weights, and identify the planchet from that (and/or
                    the fact that there was a strike on the piece already,
                    before the Israeli strike).
                     
                    Unless the PCGS tag has the weight (some do), I didn't
                    record/save the weights....
                     
                    I don't think they were cut-down between strikes....I
                    was told by the 'son' that when other Mints (like Canada)
                    found errors, they gave them to the 'father' as keepsakes.
                     
                    (It's possible the father found them in the numerous bags
                    of coins delivered from the Mints to Israel, just like other
                    errors have been found, but that's what I was told).
                     


                    ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                    In my view, the fact that neither coin appears to have been broadstruck increases the likelihood that both are assisted errors.  They're still darn interesting, as I've not seen any other assisted errors that reflect this chain of events (again, with the exception of that US quarter I mentioned).



                    ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                    What I find puzzling is that both coins appear to have been struck in-collar.  One would think that the 10 shekel strike would have expanded the planchet to such an extent that it would not have been able to fit back into the collar for the final strike.

                    Perhaps the Israel strikes were not hard enough to generate any appreciable expansion.  Perhaps each coin was sent back through the upsetting mill and were thereby reduced once again to an appropriate diameter.  Or perhaps each coin was resized (cut-down) after the Israel strike.  The latter strategy would have reduced the coin's weight.  Perhaps Fred weighed each coin prior to encapsulation.  What say you, Fred?

                     



                    ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <sherwood.park.pennies@...> wrote:

                    I had that 1983 cent on my watch list, but I forgot about the auction ending today. I may not have won, but I know I would have pushed that bid up considerably higher.... shame on me for not entering a snipe bid...


                    I think it is a very cool error...



                    ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                    The Costa Rica-over-Israel design is also the only double-denomination error I've encountered in which neither strike is that of the country who did the minting (Canada). 



                    ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                    From Fred Weinberg's inexhaustible bag of marvels comes two dual-country double-denomination errors.  Each consists of a national design struck over an off-metal error bearing the design of another country.  The original planchet, however, corresponds to the planchet normally associated with the overstrike.  Mind-twisting.

                    http://www.ebay.com/itm/190962067801

                    http://www.ebay.com/itm/390696408870

                    The only similar US error that comes to mind is the Washington quarter design struck over a nickel design struck twice on a cent planchet.


                  • dermestid
                    A very fetching error. Thanks for sharing it with us, Jeff. ... I ve posted two images to the Default Album of the 25c from Argentina over-struck by 50p from
                    Message 9 of 9 , Nov 21, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment

                      A very fetching error.  Thanks for sharing it with us, Jeff. 



                      ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                      I've posted two images to the Default Album of the 25c from Argentina over-struck by 50p from Chile dated 2009.
                      I understand it's a 'black mark' for the Chilean mint' with their history of assisted errors and it has been pointed without too much emphasis by Mike D. (kindly I might add) when taking the dual country factor into consideration, (meaning the error coin not actually being struck by either of the dual countries is very rare if not unheard of), but how often are dual country double denomination encountered anyway?....It's a certain rarity either way in my experience (assisted or not).
                      ssoooooo....there you have it.....BTW the 25c weighs 5.40 grams which is an exact match on my jewelers scale. A normal 50p from Chile weighs 7.0 grams.
                      Investigative work is best done with a raw error with every detail being annotated before being entombed in a third party slab. Take note y'all.

                      Jeff Ylitalo 



                      ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                      Very interesting error coins. I certainly enjoyed the twists. I think either of the two errors are absolute winners. 


                      The one dual country/double denomination error I have in my collection I can ascertain by weight and color (an already struck Argentina 25 centavos over-struck by Chilean 50 pesos dies). I'm still working on an article for it. It's interesting in that a normal 50 pesos is muti-sided (10 sides) and the 25c from Argentina is circular with a reeded edge...not much expansion in the 50 pesos striking chamber occurred as even the reeding appears full without any flattening...the 25c is only slightly smaller in diameter 24.2mm, while the 50 pesos is 25mm. 


                      I haven't been ebaying lately so thanks for posting the results here, Mike D.



                      ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                       It turns out that Fred did weigh these coins when he was trying to figure out the identity of the planchet.  So I must assume that the planchet identification on the slab is correct.  That eliminates the "cut-down" scenario and the possibility that we're dealing with planchets other than what was described.  Here's Fred's detailed response:

                       

                      I slabbed these coins about 7 years ago or so
                      when I bought the whole group 'raw' from the son
                      of an Israel Mint supervisor.....
                       
                      I remember that it took me awhile to figure out the
                      coin strikes, go to the Krause book to look up
                      weights, and identify the planchet from that (and/or
                      the fact that there was a strike on the piece already,
                      before the Israeli strike).
                       
                      Unless the PCGS tag has the weight (some do), I didn't
                      record/save the weights....
                       
                      I don't think they were cut-down between strikes....I
                      was told by the 'son' that when other Mints (like Canada)
                      found errors, they gave them to the 'father' as keepsakes.
                       
                      (It's possible the father found them in the numerous bags
                      of coins delivered from the Mints to Israel, just like other
                      errors have been found, but that's what I was told).
                       


                      ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                      In my view, the fact that neither coin appears to have been broadstruck increases the likelihood that both are assisted errors.  They're still darn interesting, as I've not seen any other assisted errors that reflect this chain of events (again, with the exception of that US quarter I mentioned).



                      ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                      What I find puzzling is that both coins appear to have been struck in-collar.  One would think that the 10 shekel strike would have expanded the planchet to such an extent that it would not have been able to fit back into the collar for the final strike.

                      Perhaps the Israel strikes were not hard enough to generate any appreciable expansion.  Perhaps each coin was sent back through the upsetting mill and were thereby reduced once again to an appropriate diameter.  Or perhaps each coin was resized (cut-down) after the Israel strike.  The latter strategy would have reduced the coin's weight.  Perhaps Fred weighed each coin prior to encapsulation.  What say you, Fred?

                       



                      ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <sherwood.park.pennies@...> wrote:

                      I had that 1983 cent on my watch list, but I forgot about the auction ending today. I may not have won, but I know I would have pushed that bid up considerably higher.... shame on me for not entering a snipe bid...


                      I think it is a very cool error...



                      ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                      The Costa Rica-over-Israel design is also the only double-denomination error I've encountered in which neither strike is that of the country who did the minting (Canada). 



                      ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                      From Fred Weinberg's inexhaustible bag of marvels comes two dual-country double-denomination errors.  Each consists of a national design struck over an off-metal error bearing the design of another country.  The original planchet, however, corresponds to the planchet normally associated with the overstrike.  Mind-twisting.

                      http://www.ebay.com/itm/190962067801

                      http://www.ebay.com/itm/390696408870

                      The only similar US error that comes to mind is the Washington quarter design struck over a nickel design struck twice on a cent planchet.


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