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dime struck on resized cent planchet

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  • dermestid
    PCGS labels this 1998-P dime as having been struck on a planchet punched out of cent stock, presumably by dime-sized blanking dies.
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 11, 2013
      PCGS labels this 1998-P dime as having been struck on a planchet punched out of cent stock, presumably by dime-sized blanking dies.


      http://www.ebay.com/itm/251377730886

      Zinc cent stock is unplated, so if this was cent stock, it should also be unplated. Furthermore, since the suppliers of cent planchets do not produce dime planchets, there should be no blanking dies set up to produce dime-sized blanks anywhere around.

      What I've always understood is that these dimes were struck on re-sized (cut-down) cent planchets.  This was presumably done intentionally.

      The seller's notion that the planchet's edge was sheared off by the collar is belied by the fact that the reverse face shows no evidence of down-warping along the reverse periphery.
    • numismistake
      Mike, when I saw this coin I thought my understanding of the minting process went out the window. In addition to everything you said, isn t the minting process
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 11, 2013

        Mike, when I saw this coin I thought my understanding of the minting process went out the window.


        In addition to everything you said, isn't the minting process changed for different denominations? The feeder fingers, for example, wouldn't properly feed a larger coin into position for striking. The machinery..chutes? are different for different denominations?


        Also, dimes and cents are very close in size. So I couldn't see how such a coin if struck as stated would be so centered at strike to strike clip this coin without being at least partly struck off the planchet, especially if it the cent doesn't fit into the feeder finger. Magic?


        It appears to be, as you pointed out, some kind of midnight malfeasance. I hope nobody buys it.



        ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

        PCGS labels this 1998-P dime as having been struck on a planchet punched out of cent stock, presumably by dime-sized blanking dies.

        http://www.ebay.com/itm/251377730886

        Zinc cent stock is unplated, so if this was cent stock, it should also be unplated. Furthermore, since the suppliers of cent planchets do not produce dime planchets, there should be no blanking dies set up to produce dime-sized blanks anywhere around.

        What I've always understood is that these dimes were struck on re-sized (cut-down) cent planchets.  This was presumably done intentionally.

        The seller's notion that the planchet's edge was sheared off by the collar is belied by the fact that the reverse face shows no evidence of down-warping along the reverse periphery.
      • dermestid
        In a message dated 11/11/2013 7:32:05 P.M. Central Standard Time, numismistake@yahoo.com writes:
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 11, 2013
           
           
          In a message dated 11/11/2013 7:32:05 P.M. Central Standard Time, numismistake@... writes:
           

          <<Mike, when I saw this coin I thought my understanding of the minting process went out the window. >>


          <<In addition to everything you said, isn't the minting process changed for different denominations? The feeder fingers, for example, wouldn't properly feed a larger coin into position for striking. The machinery..chutes? are different for different denominations?>>

          There may be constraints I'm not aware of that would prevent a mix-and-match situation wherein oversized feeder equipment is left in place after a changeover to smaller dies.  Perhaps Fred could disabuse me of this notion.  I have seen a few strikes on oversized planchets that look like they just might be accidental.  Allan Levy once offered a nickel planchet with a way off-center dime strike.


          <<Also, dimes and ce nts are very close in size. So I couldn't see how such a coin if struck as stated would be so centered at strike to strike clip this coin without being at least partly struck off the planchet, especially if it the cent doesn't fit into the feeder finger. Magic?

          It appears to be, as you pointed out, some kind of midnight malfeasance. I hope nobody buys it.>>

          I agree with your reasoning.  An accidental, perfectly centered, 360 degree shear is a near-impossibility.
        • fred_weinberg
          I don t have anything to add to the discussion as far as how impossible it might be to have coins like this exist. It s well-known that there are error coins
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 12, 2013

             I don't have anything to add to the discussion as far

            as how 'impossible' it might be to have coins like this exist.

             

            It's well-known that there are error coins out there that

            could have only been minted 'with help'. Although some

            collectors do not collect them, or consider them true

            Mint errors, there is a deep and wide marketplace for

            them, as long as they were made in the Mint, with or

            without help.

             

            Don't forget, 1913 Liberty Nickels were made 'with help',

            to put it mildly.....!

             

             



            ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

             
             
            In a message dated 11/11/2013 7:32:05 P.M. Central Standard Time, numismistake@... writes:
             

            <<Mike, when I saw this coin I thought my understanding of the minting process went out the window. >>


            <<In addition to everything you said, isn't the minting process changed for different denominations? The feeder fingers, for example, wouldn't properly feed a larger coin into position for striking. The machinery..chutes? are different for different denominations?>>

            There may be constraints I'm not aware of that would prevent a mix-and-match situation wherein oversized feeder equipment is left in place after a changeover to smaller dies.  Perhaps Fred could disabuse me of this notion.  I have seen a few strikes on oversized planchets that look like they just might be accidental.  Allan Levy once offered a nickel planchet with a way off-center dime strike.


            <<Also, dimes and ce nts are very close in size. So I couldn't see how such a coin if struck as stated would be so centered at strike to strike clip this coin without being at least partly struck off the planchet, especially if it the cent doesn't fit into the feeder finger. Magic?

            It appears to be, as you pointed out, some kind of midnight malfeasance. I hope nobody buys it.>>

            I agree with your reasoning.  An accidental, perfectly centered, 360 degree shear is a near-impossibility.
          • Jon P. Sullivan
            I agree. Written from iPhone
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 12, 2013
              I agree.

              Written from iPhone

              On Nov 11, 2013, at 10:46 AM, mdia1@... wrote:

               

              PCGS labels this 1998-P dime as having been struck on a planchet punched out of cent stock, presumably by dime-sized blanking dies.



              Zinc cent stock is unplated, so if this was cent stock, it should also be unplated. Furthermore, since the suppliers of cent planchets do not produce dime planchets, there should be no blanking dies set up to produce dime-sized blanks anywhere around.

              What I've always understood is that these dimes were struck on re-sized (cut-down) cent planchets.  This was presumably done intentionally.

              The seller's notion that the planchet's edge was sheared off by the collar is belied by the fact that the reverse face shows no evidence of down-warping along the reverse periphery.

            • jylitalo
              I was fortunate to be able to study two specimens at ANA in Chicago (Errorama) this last summer. Both were in NGC slabs with the proper description. 1998 P
              Message 6 of 6 , Nov 12, 2013

                I was fortunate to be able to study two specimens at ANA in Chicago (Errorama) this last summer. Both were in NGC slabs with the proper description. "1998 P 10c STRUCK ON A CUTDOWN 1C PLAN" with weights annotated. (They were not for sale).


                Both those coins showed i.e. shaving, cutting, grinding, scrapes (add your own description here) around the rims and/or edges. 


                I can't see any damage/cut marks around the rims on the PCGS auction coin.





                ---In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, <mdia1@...> wrote:

                PCGS labels this 1998-P dime as having been struck on a planchet punched out of cent stock, presumably by dime-sized blanking dies.

                http://www.ebay.com/itm/251377730886

                Zinc cent stock is unplated, so if this was cent stock, it should also be unplated. Furthermore, since the suppliers of cent planchets do not produce dime planchets, there should be no blanking dies set up to produce dime-sized blanks anywhere around.

                What I've always understood is that these dimes were struck on re-sized (cut-down) cent planchets.  This was presumably done intentionally.

                The seller's notion that the planchet's edge was sheared off by the collar is belied by the fact that the reverse face shows no evidence of down-warping along the reverse periphery.
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