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Re: copper core 25c

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  • Mike Diamond
    Regarding the coin you directed us to, there s no way to tell from the scan if it s real or fake. The color seems a bit off, but that s nothing to base a
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 13 6:50 PM
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      Regarding the coin you directed us to, there's no way to tell from
      the scan if it's real or fake. The color seems a bit off, but that's
      nothing to base a solid opinion on.

      If you refer to the posts I listed, you'll see that I used
      a "totality of the evidence" approach. Each coin "smelled" for
      slightly different reasons, although there was a fair degree of
      overlap among the various warning signs.

      Among those warning signs were:

      1. Reeding unaccountably obliterated.
      2. Odd color, especially in the design recesses.
      3. Speckled or porous copper (sometimes both).
      4. Copper foil lying on top of a porous patch on one coin.
      5. Absence of radial flow lines in two of the specimens.
      6. Unexplained depression in Washington's head in one coin.

      I may have forgotten one or two points; just check the posts for a
      complete list.

      The weight of each of the coins fell within the normal range of
      variation for clad quarters.

      I didn't see any of the typical signs of a spark erosion die
      (microscopic bumps), nor did I see any "toolmarks". Like I say, they
      were excellent counterfeits.

      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "moores917"
      <snooker73@a...> wrote:
      > Theres a so called clad missing both sides up for auction right
      now.
      > Item #3012432007 It looks fully struck. Are there any tell tale
      > signs that would indicate that its a fake? Or is metal testing the
      > only reliable way to tell? Weighing it of course would be first but
      > how did you determine the three you saw were fakes? Thanks
    • pwrwgndrvr
      This 1980 raises some interesting questions. The seller is fairly knowledgeable, reliable and scrupulous but he did not weigh this item, which is very strange.
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 13 7:02 PM
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        This 1980 raises some interesting questions.
        The seller is fairly knowledgeable, reliable and scrupulous but he
        did not weigh this item, which is very strange.
        If it is an underweight core, it would be significantly thinner than
        normal and u would not expect it to be as sharply struck as this
        piece.
        If it is a full weight copper piece, it is EXTREMELY rare, and
        selling it raw would be stupid.
        I will bet $100 that it is nothing more than a copper plated piece,
        if it is full weight.
        If it is underweight by 2g, it is also extremely rare and worth every
        cent of its final price.
        Why would a knowledgeable seller not provide the weight?
        The key to this one is the weight, the seller and the fact it is raw.
        Without additional info I would stay way away from this one.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "moores917"
        <snooker73@a...> wrote:
        > Theres a so called clad missing both sides up for auction right
        now.
        > Item #3012432007 It looks fully struck. Are there any tell tale
        > signs that would indicate that its a fake? Or is metal testing the
        > only reliable way to tell? Weighing it of course would be first but
        > how did you determine the three you saw were fakes? Thanks
      • Mike Diamond
        I did advise the seller to have it authenticated. If it were slabbed by one of the more reputable grading services, then it would be worth multiple hundreds
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 13 7:21 PM
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          I did advise the seller to have it authenticated. If it were slabbed
          by one of the more reputable grading services, then it would be worth
          multiple hundreds of dollars.

          I could be plated, as you say. Or it could be stained a copper
          color. Or it could be a struck counterfeit. So many possibilities
          here.

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, pwrwgndrvr
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > This 1980 raises some interesting questions.
          > The seller is fairly knowledgeable, reliable and scrupulous but he
          > did not weigh this item, which is very strange.
          > If it is an underweight core, it would be significantly thinner
          than
          > normal and u would not expect it to be as sharply struck as this
          > piece.
          > If it is a full weight copper piece, it is EXTREMELY rare, and
          > selling it raw would be stupid.
          > I will bet $100 that it is nothing more than a copper plated piece,
          > if it is full weight.
          > If it is underweight by 2g, it is also extremely rare and worth
          every
          > cent of its final price.
          > Why would a knowledgeable seller not provide the weight?
          > The key to this one is the weight, the seller and the fact it is
          raw.
          > Without additional info I would stay way away from this one.
          >
        • Mike Diamond
          Yes, this is another possibility. I have a BU Kennedy half that was pulled straight from a mint bag that is totally sintered on both faces. The coin looks
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 14 8:24 AM
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            Yes, this is another possibility. I have a BU Kennedy half that was
            pulled straight from a mint bag that is totally sintered on both
            faces. The coin looks like it's struck in pure copper. Under high
            magnification, however, you can see some microscopic areas where the
            copper has flaked off, revealing a normal Cu-Ni clad layer underneath.

            You're right that the thin layer of copper will add no more than a
            few hundredths of a gram to the weight of the coin. It will still
            fall within normal tolerances.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
            <adkinstone@e...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > 1980 copper core 25c at ebay looks like a sintered example to me. I
            > have a 76 25c that is fully struck and 80%copper one side 100%
            other
            > side. The sintered copper plating has no real effect on weight.
          • pwrwgndrvr
            Mike, please explain exactly what sintering is, how it occurs, why it occurs, etc. Also, does this happen to the metal strip prior to planchets being punched
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 14 8:40 AM
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              Mike, please explain exactly what "sintering" is, how it occurs, why
              it occurs, etc.
              Also, does this happen to the metal strip prior to planchets being
              punched out, or does it happen to planchets individually? If so, I
              would like to know what part of the minting process fails in such a
              way that only a single coin is affected like this.
              If it occurs on the metal strip, there should be numerous, similar
              examples for each date.

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
              <mdia1@a...> wrote:
              > Yes, this is another possibility. I have a BU Kennedy half that
              was
              > pulled straight from a mint bag that is totally sintered on both
              > faces. The coin looks like it's struck in pure copper. Under high
              > magnification, however, you can see some microscopic areas where
              the
              > copper has flaked off, revealing a normal Cu-Ni clad layer
              underneath.
              >
              > You're right that the thin layer of copper will add no more than a
              > few hundredths of a gram to the weight of the coin. It will still
              > fall within normal tolerances.
              >
              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
              > <adkinstone@e...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > 1980 copper core 25c at ebay looks like a sintered example to me.
              I
              > > have a 76 25c that is fully struck and 80%copper one side 100%
              > other
              > > side. The sintered copper plating has no real effect on weight.
            • Mike Diamond
              Sintering, or sintered plating, refers to silver, copper-nickel, or copper-nickel clad coins that have a thin veneer of copper plating on the surface. The
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 14 9:59 AM
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                Sintering, or sintered plating, refers to silver, copper-nickel, or
                copper-nickel clad coins that have a thin veneer of copper plating on
                the surface. The plating can be complete, patchy, or streaky.
                Usually the edge is involved, along with the obverse and reverse
                face. In cases of heavy sintering, the copper can peel or flake off.

                The theory that has been advanced to explain this thin copper plating
                involves the annealing drum. The annealing drum is a rotating drum
                subjected to high heat. Essentially it's a rotating oven. It's
                designed to soften the planchets prior to the strike.

                It's claimed that copper dust remaining from batches of cents
                sometimes remains behind in the annealing drum. This dust can then
                coat batches of other coins (nickels, dimes, quarters, etc.) and get
                baked in, with the individual dust grains fusing together due to the
                heat.

                Is this really the way sintering occurs? I don't know. Sintered
                coins occur before and after the introduction of copper-plated zinc
                cents. Since the copper-plated zinc planchets are not annealed,
                there would have to be some other source for this copper dust.

                I'm somewhat skeptical of the theory, but the fact remains that you
                do find clad and copper-nickel coins with a thin coating of copper,
                or what appears to be copper. And it's clearly deposted before the
                strike. In cases where the plating peels off, you find a
                shallow "strike-through" error on the surface of the coin.

                If you have any other ideas how this copper could be deposited, I
                would love to hear them. Since the copper plating covers the coin's
                edge, it's clearly deposited after the blank is punched out.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, pwrwgndrvr
                <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > Mike, please explain exactly what "sintering" is, how it occurs,
                why
                > it occurs, etc.
                > Also, does this happen to the metal strip prior to planchets being
                > punched out, or does it happen to planchets individually? If so, I
                > would like to know what part of the minting process fails in such a
                > way that only a single coin is affected like this.
                > If it occurs on the metal strip, there should be numerous, similar
                > examples for each date.
              • Mike Diamond
                I agree that the annealing drum, or annealing furnace, is the most likely source of sintering. We just need to explain those many post- 1982 cases of
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 14 1:56 PM
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                  I agree that the annealing drum, or annealing furnace, is the most
                  likely source of sintering. We just need to explain those many post-
                  1982 cases of sintering!

                  Your observations of copper dust remaining on your fingers after
                  searching through a bag of cents is very helpful.

                  As to color, while most cases of sintering show a bright copper
                  color, I've also seen examples that are bright red, dark red, and
                  pink.

                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mrlindy2000"
                  <adkinstone@e...> wrote:
                  > The 1980 quarter was made when the mint still made copper 1c
                  > planchets. To me, the color looks good for sintered. Though I know
                  > these sintered can come quite dark. To me, it makes since that the
                  > annealing drum would pick up a copper dust while softening those
                  > unstruck planchets. By the way, back in the day of copper 1c's when
                  > I'd search mint sewn bags for an elusive stiking error, I would get
                  > fine copper color dust on my hands just from the 5000 struck cents.
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