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Double-sided machine doubling?

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  • Mike Diamond
    This commemorative $10 coin is alleged to show a close double strike: http://www.ebay.com/itm/350752425305 However, another strong possibility is double-sided
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 3, 2013
      This commemorative $10 coin is alleged to show a close double strike:

      http://www.ebay.com/itm/350752425305

      However, another strong possibility is double-sided machine doubling. The doubling appears to take the form of broad shelving restricted to some central areas of the design that also appear to be the areas of highest relief. Those are the areas most vulnerable to machine doubling. While this shelving could also represent a very light second strike, the problem is that both strikes appear to have occurred within the collar, and there's just not enough play inside the collar to allow the coin to shift to the degree seen on the reverse face.

      Double-sided machine doubling is uncommon, and it's even more uncommon to find it in the same direction on both faces. Nevertheless, it's a possibility one cannot discount based on the evidence available in the photos.

      I have seen other encapsulated proof coins labeled as double strikes that unambiguously show the presence of machine doubling.

      Comments?
    • Mike Diamond
      Now that I think about it, it s also difficult to explain strongly offset machine doubling on the face struck by the anvil die because die movement is
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 3, 2013
        Now that I think about it, it's also difficult to explain strongly offset machine doubling on the face struck by the anvil die because die movement is constrained in the same fashion as a coin struck inside the collar. A very odd situation.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond" <mdia1@...> wrote:
        >
        > This commemorative $10 coin is alleged to show a close double strike:
        >
        > http://www.ebay.com/itm/350752425305
        >
        > However, another strong possibility is double-sided machine doubling. The doubling appears to take the form of broad shelving restricted to some central areas of the design that also appear to be the areas of highest relief. Those are the areas most vulnerable to machine doubling. While this shelving could also represent a very light second strike, the problem is that both strikes appear to have occurred within the collar, and there's just not enough play inside the collar to allow the coin to shift to the degree seen on the reverse face.
        >
        > Double-sided machine doubling is uncommon, and it's even more uncommon to find it in the same direction on both faces. Nevertheless, it's a possibility one cannot discount based on the evidence available in the photos.
        >
        > I have seen other encapsulated proof coins labeled as double strikes that unambiguously show the presence of machine doubling.
        >
        > Comments?
        >
      • Mike Diamond
        In the end, this is the kind of error that would need to be studied under a microscope to determine exactly what kind of doubling this is.
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 3, 2013
          In the end, this is the kind of error that would need to be studied under a microscope to determine exactly what kind of doubling this is.

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond" <mdia1@...> wrote:
          >
          > Now that I think about it, it's also difficult to explain strongly offset machine doubling on the face struck by the anvil die because die movement is constrained in the same fashion as a coin struck inside the collar. A very odd situation.
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond" <mdia1@> wrote:
          > >
          > > This commemorative $10 coin is alleged to show a close double strike:
          > >
          > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/350752425305
          > >
          > > However, another strong possibility is double-sided machine doubling. The doubling appears to take the form of broad shelving restricted to some central areas of the design that also appear to be the areas of highest relief. Those are the areas most vulnerable to machine doubling. While this shelving could also represent a very light second strike, the problem is that both strikes appear to have occurred within the collar, and there's just not enough play inside the collar to allow the coin to shift to the degree seen on the reverse face.
          > >
          > > Double-sided machine doubling is uncommon, and it's even more uncommon to find it in the same direction on both faces. Nevertheless, it's a possibility one cannot discount based on the evidence available in the photos.
          > >
          > > I have seen other encapsulated proof coins labeled as double strikes that unambiguously show the presence of machine doubling.
          > >
          > > Comments?
          > >
          >
        • oldsubguru
          Isn t double struck a bit ambiguous since all proofs are double struck in collar. Anyway, the apparent doubling would have to have a sizeable shift in
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 3, 2013
            Isn't "double struck" a bit ambiguous since all proofs are double struck in collar. Anyway, the apparent doubling would have to have a sizeable shift in collar to be that predominant. I just do not think that the collar's confines would allow hat much wiggle. However, if the first strike was in collar and the second lighter strike was out of collar and offset, that may have been a remote possibility. A slightly wider than normal diameter on the coin would confirm that scenario. 
             
            In a message dated 4/3/2013 8:05:31 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mdia1@... writes:
             

            This commemorative $10 coin is alleged to show a close double strike:
             
            http://www.ebay.com/itm/350752425305

            However, another strong possibility is double-sided machine doubling. The doubling appears to take the form of broad shelving restricted to some central areas of the design that also appear to be the areas of highest relief. Those are the areas most vulnerable to machine doubling. While this shelving could also represent a very light second strike, the problem is that both strikes appear to have occurred within the collar, and there's just not enough play inside the collar to allow the coin to shift to the degree seen on the reverse face.

            Double-sided machine doubling is uncommon, and it's even more uncommon to find it in the same direction on both faces. Nevertheless, it's a possibility one cannot discount based on the evidence available in the photos.

            I have seen other encapsulated proof coins labeled as double strikes that unambiguously show the presence of machine doubling.

            Comments?

          • Michael Evanchik
            well first of all, not to be mean, but frosty444 coins are usually all quite pricey. as for the doubling, im not familiar with this coin. if were talking about
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 3, 2013
              well first of all, not to be mean, but frosty444 coins are usually all quite pricey. as for the doubling, im not familiar with this coin. if were talking about the legs on the obverse though or the eagles head on the reverse, the doubling does seem pretty extreme, no?  can shelf type doubling occur that extremely?

              From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
              To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 8:04 AM
              Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Double-sided machine doubling?
               
              This commemorative $10 coin is alleged to show a close double strike:

              http://www.ebay.com/itm/350752425305

              However, another strong possibility is double-sided machine doubling. The doubling appears to take the form of broad shelving restricted to some central areas of the design that also appear to be the areas of highest relief. Those are the areas most vulnerable to machine doubling. While this shelving could also represent a very light second strike, the problem is that both strikes appear to have occurred within the collar, and there's just not enough play inside the collar to allow the coin to shift to the degree seen on the reverse face.

              Double-sided machine doubling is uncommon, and it's even more uncommon to find it in the same direction on both faces. Nevertheless, it's a possibility one cannot discount based on the evidence available in the photos.

              I have seen other encapsulated proof coins labeled as double strikes that unambiguously show the presence of machine doubling.

              Comments?

            • dermestid
              Shelves produced by machine doubling can occasionally be quite wide. BJ s conjecture of a light second strike out-of-collar is something to be considered. ...
              Message 6 of 6 , Apr 3, 2013
                Shelves produced by machine doubling can occasionally be quite wide.  BJ's conjecture of a light second strike out-of-collar is something to be considered.


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Michael Evanchik <ivan0000013@...>
                To: errorcoininformationexchange <errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wed, Apr 3, 2013 11:02 am
                Subject: Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Double-sided machine doubling?

                 
                well first of all, not to be mean, but frosty444 coins are usually all quite pricey. as for the doubling, im not familiar with this coin. if were talking about the legs on the obverse though or the eagles head on the reverse, the doubling does seem pretty extreme, no?  can shelf type doubling occur that extremely?

                From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 8:04 AM
                Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Double-sided machine doubling?
                 
                This commemorative $10 coin is alleged to show a close double strike:

                http://www.ebay.com/itm/350752425305

                However, another strong possibility is double-sided machine doubling. The doubling appears to take the form of broad shelving restricted to some central areas of the design that also appear to be the areas of highest relief. Those are the areas most vulnerable to machine doubling. While this shelving could also represent a very light second strike, the problem is that both strikes appear to have occurred within the collar, and there's just not enough play inside the collar to allow the coin to shift to the degree seen on the reverse face.

                Double-sided machine doubling is uncommon, and it's even more uncommon to find it in the same direction on both faces. Nevertheless, it's a possibility one cannot discount based on the evidence available in the photos.

                I have seen other encapsulated proof coins labeled as double strikes that unambiguously show the presence of machine doubling.

                Comments?

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