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Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Can't understand what happened to t...

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  • innff@aol.com
    You are forgetting that the reverse is 180 degrees flipped from the obverse. The overlay that I did shows the relationship of the two dies to each other. In a
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 22, 2011
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      You are forgetting that the reverse is 180 degrees flipped from the obverse. The overlay that I did shows the relationship of the two dies to each other.
       
      In a message dated 10/22/2011 9:19:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm confused why both sides aren't off-center in the same direction. If the left edge of the obverse is slightly missing, shouldn't it be the left edge of the reverse that's affected the same way? The obverse and reverse are off-center in opposite directions.

      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond" <mdia1@...> wrote:
      >
      > As BJ said, it's a minor off-center strike. The areas of weakness appear to be caused by grease clogging the corresponding areas of the die face.
      >
      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, likepepsi <no_reply@> wrote:
      > >
      > > OK, posted the pix to the default album as "error jeff obv" and "error jeff rev"
      > >
      > > Thanks.
      > >
      > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond" <mdia1@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Your links aren't working. Try posting your photos in the Default Album.
      > > >
      > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, likepepsi <no_reply@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > The obverse is shifted in a different direction than the reverse, so
      > > > > it's not an off-center strike. But I have never heard of a coin with
      > > > > both dies misaligned. IGWT is quite weak, and I believe Jefferson's
      > > > > cheek was not completely struck up (has a rough appearance). What could
      > > > > have caused this? Thanks in advance for any insight.
      > > > >
      > > > > Obverse photo
      > > > > <http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j255/atotpix/error%20jeff/?action=vie\
      > > > > w&current=errorjeffobv.jpg>
      > > > >
      > > > > Reverse photo
      > > > > <http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j255/atotpix/error%20jeff/?action=vie\
      > > > > w&current=errorjeffrev.jpg>
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >

    • likepepsi
      Thanks for your patience, but I m still baffled. I had compared it to a (major) off-center Jefferson I found on the minterrornews.com site, which is off-center
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 22, 2011
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        Thanks for your patience, but I'm still baffled. I had compared it to a (major) off-center Jefferson I found on the minterrornews.com site, which is off-center in a similar way. 

        http://minterrornews.com/1781628-003o.jpg

        http://minterrornews.com/1781628-003r.jpg

        In the linked example, the unstruck portion of the planchet is on the right side of both the obverse and reverse which makes sense to me. Mine has the unstruck portion on opposite sides.


        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, innff@... wrote:
        >
        > You are forgetting that the reverse is 180 degrees flipped from the
        > obverse. The overlay that I did shows the relationship of the two dies to each
        > other.
        >
        >
        > In a message dated 10/22/2011 9:19:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
        > no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I'm confused why both sides aren't off-center in the same direction. If the
        > left edge of the obverse is slightly missing, shouldn't it be the left
        > edge of the reverse that's affected the same way? The obverse and reverse are
        > off-center in opposite directions.
        >
        > --- In _errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com_
        > (mailto:errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com) , "Mike Diamond" mdia1@ wrote:
        > >
        > > As BJ said, it's a minor off-center strike. The areas of weakness appear
        > to be caused by grease clogging the corresponding areas of the die face.
        > >
        > > --- In _errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com_
        > (mailto:errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com) , likepepsi <no_reply@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > OK, posted the pix to the default album as "error jeff obv" and "error
        > jeff rev"
        > > >
        > > > Thanks.
        > > >
        > > > --- In _errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com_
        > (mailto:errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com) , "Mike Diamond" <mdia1@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Your links aren't working. Try posting your photos in the Default
        > Album.
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In _errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com_
        > (mailto:errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com) , likepepsi <no_reply@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > The obverse is shifted in a different direction than the reverse,
        > so
        > > > > > it's not an off-center strike. But I have never heard of a coin
        > with
        > > > > > both dies misaligned. IGWT is quite weak, and I believe Jefferson's
        > > > > > cheek was not completely struck up (has a rough appearance). What
        > could
        > > > > > have caused this? Thanks in advance for any insight.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Obverse photo
        > > > > >
        > <_http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j255/atotpix/error%20jeff/?action=vie\
        > _ (http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j255/atotpix/error%20jeff/?action=vie)
        > > > > > w&current=errorjeffobv.jpg>
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Reverse photo
        > > > > >
        > <_http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j255/atotpix/error%20jeff/?action=vie\
        > _ (http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j255/atotpix/error%20jeff/?action=vie)
        > > > > > w&current=errorjeffrev.jpg>
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >

      • Mike Diamond
        Damn, you re right. This opens up a number of unusual possibilities. 1. You could have a misalignment in combination with an off-center strike in the opposite
        Message 3 of 4 , Oct 22, 2011
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          Damn, you're right. This opens up a number of unusual possibilities.

          1. You could have a misalignment in combination with an off-center strike in the opposite direction.

          2. You could have two misalignments, each in the opposite direction.

          The weakness on the coin may not be entirely due to grease. Instead, peripheral weakness on each would be due to a lack of resistance to the impact of the die coming from the opposite face.

          I can't tell from here if the obverse die was the hammer die or the anvil die. Both setups were used during this time period.

          I would love to study this coin more closely and write it up for my Collector's Clearinghouse column in Coin World. Please contact me directly at mdia1@.... -- Mike Diamond

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, likepepsi <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Thanks for your patience, but I'm still baffled. I had compared it to a
          > (major) off-center Jefferson I found on the minterrornews.com site,
          > which is off-center in a similar way.
          >
          > http://minterrornews.com/1781628-003o.jpg
          > <http://minterrornews.com/1781628-003o.jpg>
          >
          > http://minterrornews.com/1781628-003r.jpg
          > <http://minterrornews.com/1781628-003r.jpg>
          >
          > In the linked example, the unstruck portion of the planchet is on the
          > right side of both the obverse and reverse which makes sense to me. Mine
          > has the unstruck portion on opposite sides.
          >
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, innff@ wrote:
          > >
          > > You are forgetting that the reverse is 180 degrees flipped from the
          > > obverse. The overlay that I did shows the relationship of the two dies
          > to each
          > > other.
          > >
          > >
          > > In a message dated 10/22/2011 9:19:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
          > > no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I'm confused why both sides aren't off-center in the same direction.
          > If the
          > > left edge of the obverse is slightly missing, shouldn't it be the left
          > > edge of the reverse that's affected the same way? The obverse and
          > reverse are
          > > off-center in opposite directions.
          > >
          > > --- In _errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com_
          > > (mailto:errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com) , "Mike Diamond"
          > mdia1@ wrote:
          > > >
          > > > As BJ said, it's a minor off-center strike. The areas of weakness
          > appear
          > > to be caused by grease clogging the corresponding areas of the die
          > face.
          > > >
          > > > --- In _errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com_
          > > (mailto:errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com) , likepepsi
          > <no_reply@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > OK, posted the pix to the default album as "error jeff obv" and
          > "error
          > > jeff rev"
          > > > >
          > > > > Thanks.
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In _errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com_
          > > (mailto:errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com) , "Mike Diamond"
          > <mdia1@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Your links aren't working. Try posting your photos in the
          > Default
          > > Album.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In _errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com_
          > > (mailto:errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com) , likepepsi
          > <no_reply@> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > The obverse is shifted in a different direction than the
          > reverse,
          > > so
          > > > > > > it's not an off-center strike. But I have never heard of a
          > coin
          > > with
          > > > > > > both dies misaligned. IGWT is quite weak, and I believe
          > Jefferson's
          > > > > > > cheek was not completely struck up (has a rough appearance).
          > What
          > > could
          > > > > > > have caused this? Thanks in advance for any insight.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Obverse photo
          > > > > > >
          > >
          > <_http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j255/atotpix/error%20jeff/?action=vi\
          > e\
          > > _
          > (http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j255/atotpix/error%20jeff/?action=vie\
          > )
          > > > > > > w¤t=errorjeffobv.jpg>
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Reverse photo
          > > > > > >
          > >
          > <_http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j255/atotpix/error%20jeff/?action=vi\
          > e\
          > > _
          > (http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j255/atotpix/error%20jeff/?action=vie\
          > )
          > > > > > > w¤t=errorjeffrev.jpg>
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Mike Diamond
          Okay, I ve got a firm handle on this error. It s got a horizontal misalignment of the obverse (hammer) die toward the left. It s also got an off-center
          Message 4 of 4 , Oct 29, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Okay, I've got a firm handle on this error. It's got a horizontal misalignment of the obverse (hammer) die toward the left. It's also got an off-center strike toward the left. The off-center positioning of the planchet reduced the apparent size of the misalignment. It was actually at least a millimeter wider than what we can see. The obverse die was also tilted up toward the left (a vertical misalignment). That's why the design is weak on the left side.

            I will write it up for Coin World week after next.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond" <mdia1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Damn, you're right. This opens up a number of unusual possibilities.
            >
            > 1. You could have a misalignment in combination with an off-center strike in the opposite direction.
            >
            > 2. You could have two misalignments, each in the opposite direction.
            >
            > The weakness on the coin may not be entirely due to grease. Instead, peripheral weakness on each would be due to a lack of resistance to the impact of the die coming from the opposite face.
            >
            > I can't tell from here if the obverse die was the hammer die or the anvil die. Both setups were used during this time period.
            >
            > I would love to study this coin more closely and write it up for my Collector's Clearinghouse column in Coin World. Please contact me directly at mdia1@... -- Mike Diamond

            likepepsi
            > > <no_reply@> wrote:
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > The obverse is shifted in a different direction than the
            > > reverse,
            > > > so
            > > > > > > > it's not an off-center strike. But I have never heard of a
            > > coin
            > > > with
            > > > > > > > both dies misaligned. IGWT is quite weak, and I believe
            > > Jefferson's
            > > > > > > > cheek was not completely struck up (has a rough appearance).
            > > What
            > > > could
            > > > > > > > have caused this? Thanks in advance for any insight.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Obverse photo
            > > > > > > >
            > > >
            > > <_http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j255/atotpix/error%20jeff/?action=vi\
            > > e\
            > > > _
            > > (http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j255/atotpix/error%20jeff/?action=vie\
            > > )
            > > > > > > > w¤t=errorjeffobv.jpg>
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Reverse photo
            > > > > > > >
            > > >
            > > <_http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j255/atotpix/error%20jeff/?action=vi\
            > > e\
            > > > _
            > > (http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j255/atotpix/error%20jeff/?action=vie\
            > > )
            > > > > > > > w¤t=errorjeffrev.jpg>
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
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