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Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Any Morgan Collectors who know VAM'...

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  • Steve Frank
    Will do....shoveling snow now, but tonite I ll send some pics....I may be wrong on this and it was in die preperation that the lines occured....will try and
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 27, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Will do....shoveling snow now, but tonite I'll send some pics....I may be wrong on this and it was in die preperation that the lines occured....will try and see what I can find...if any with and without for the same die. Maybe the strike of the letter and number punches to create the die is what I was thinking.....been a long time since I messed with those, and as you know, errors and what the cause for the effect is something that needs to be studied extensively to learn the cause, and if you have a poor memory as I do, if you drop everything for a year, you have to re-learn....might not be as difficult as starting from scratch, but it's still thought provoking. I used to flow-chart the errors on colonial coins that occured with multiple strikes and planchet feeds. Being an old main-frame programmer, I still tend to go with the "if you can't draw it, you shouldn't write it" belief of the 1970's.

      --- On Thu, 1/27/11, innff@... <innff@...> wrote:

      From: innff@... <innff@...>
      Subject: Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Any Morgan Collectors who know VAM'...
      To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 11:30 AM

       
      If this anomaly were caused by strike pressure, it would not be seen exactly the same way on a number of coins in the same year. There is ample proof that the trail lines are on the die and are formed before the die is put into service. I would like to see some of the trails that are on the halfpence or the colonials. If you have a chance, please contact me at traildies@.... Thanks.
       
      BJ Neff
       
      In a message dated 1/27/2011 10:22:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, taxi_steve929@... writes:
       
      Hi, aren't the "dual trail" lines just caused by strike pressure. They're not uncommon on the 18th century British halfpence I collect, and some colonials.

      --- On Thu, 1/27/11, innff@... <innff@...> wrote:

      From: innff@... <innff@...>
      Subject: Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Any Morgan Collectors who know VAM'...
      To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 9:00 AM

       
      Steve,
               Since you are talking about the 1921-S Morgan, be on the lookout for this type of anomaly. This is the link to that page.
       

      BJ Neff

       
      In a message dated 1/27/2011 8:30:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, taxi_steve929@... writes:
       
      Thanks Pat!! I had uploaded the coin to the photos section. I know when I get grounders, or coins with uneven color, (I collect colonial era copper) I find it's easer to eliminate the color to get rid of the distractions. I don't expect you to do all of these, but I'll send the 12 pics I have, over 2 emials. They're stitched already in rows so it will be two large photos. I'm just going to go ahead and list them all but the 1921-P since that is the one I noticed something on....the others are just plain old Morgans I think. Thanks again, Steve

      --- On Wed, 1/26/11, Oldboats <altasierradecks@...> wrote:

      From: Oldboats <altasierradecks@...>
      Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Any Morgan Collectors who know VAM's here?
      To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 10:33 PM

       
      Steve,
      I would be happy to attribute any and all Morgans for the Vams if you would like. Email me any/all pics you have that you need attributed and I will help.

      Pat/altasierradecks@...

      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@...> wrote:
      >
      > **** Photo uploaded to Default Album ---- should be last photo 1921 Morgan - taxi-steve ****
      >  
      > I had a 60 coin group of Morgans I bought from a friend's brother who found them along with a ton of other coins in a bus company bag in a house he bought a few years ago...he just started finishing the basement last year and found them in the ceiling. Probably put there in the 70's as that was the newest coins. The old lady who had owned the place died 10 years ago when he bought it, so I told this young guy and his wife to look at it as a gift from the old owners. I had tried to talk him into keeping them as a lower grade collection, but it's not easy to talk a non-collector into selling, so I told him to ask around the coin shops and I gave him a number and he jumped at it, which tells me the dealers all offered scrap, which a good amount was, but there were some better dates and they all had this original toning I liked. I haven't collected these in 30 years and am down to the last few, and there wound up being an 1888-O DDO in decent condition
      > that kept me from losing money when silver took a nose dive. (one of my knacks is buying high and selling low)
      >  
      > Getting these photoed for listing I noticed in the enlargement of this 1921 there is quite a bit going on, so I loaded a photo of the coin with some close ups of a couple of areas on the reverse. I went to the VAMS site and saw quite a few entries for the 1921's, but couldn't match this specifically. I haven't collected Bust Halves since the 80's so am out of shape with attributing details on silver, and the toning doesn't help. (along with a cheap camera).
      >  
      > There is a break going through STATES. There is something going on between In God We Trust and STATES, and also to the outside of both wings. When I first saw it on the photo I though clash, but when I looked at the coin, it's raised so I'm figuring A-multiple strike, B-some other type of over-strike, or C-die chips and combined with the toning the patterns are playing some mind games with my imagination.
      >  
      > Hoping someone here is experienced enough with these to let me know if this is something known to Morgan collectors....if not I'll just list it with the closeups and let the viewers figure it out. Thanks in advance for any info!! Steve
      >

    • taxi_steve929
      I want to keep this alive...had to go to the groups site to find it. There may be more than 1 way this error occurs depending on how the coin is made...when
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 11, 2011
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        I want to keep this alive...had to go to the groups site to find it. There may be more than 1 way this error occurs depending on how the coin is made...when the error repeats itself, its because the strike pressure was too strong when the die was created....there are plenty of instances where the same variety of colonial coin shows this effect on one and not on the other. I'm just trying to find some things written about this and haven't forgotten your request...was a little busy with non-coin stuff. I have to look at the dates of certain things comming into use, such as hubs and collars. Bifurcated legends are relatively common on George III British halfpence, most notably the letter I with the bottom curling up. Some coins have the entire legend with this effect, and straight lines running right to the edge....while another example of the exact same die variety shows none. I'm rambling a little thinking out loud so I can read this later and remember what I need to find, but what I'm trying to figure out is if this can occur both during die creation, and during the striking of the coin. When it occurs during die creation, all of the coins will have the effect struck with that die. When it happens when the blank is fed into the press and struck, it will only happen on some of the coins. I'll post a couple of photos to show this soon...maybe tonite if I can find them.

        Steve frank
        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, innff@... wrote:
        >
        > If this anomaly were caused by strike pressure, it would not be seen
        > exactly the same way on a number of coins in the same year. There is ample proof
        > that the trail lines are on the die and are formed before the die is put
        > into service. I would like to see some of the trails that are on the
        > halfpence or the colonials. If you have a chance, please contact me at
        > _traildies@..._ (mailto:traildies@...) . Thanks.
        >
        > BJ Neff
        >
        >
        > In a message dated 1/27/2011 10:22:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
        > taxi_steve929@... writes:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi, aren't the "dual trail" lines just caused by strike pressure. They're
        > not uncommon on the 18th century British halfpence I collect, and some
        > colonials.
        >
        > --- On Thu, 1/27/11, innff@... <innff@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: innff@... <innff@...>
        > Subject: Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Any Morgan Collectors
        > who know VAM'...
        > To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 9:00 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Steve,
        > Since you are talking about the 1921-S Morgan, be on the lookout
        > for this type of anomaly. This is the link to that page.
        >
        >
        > _http://traildies.com/id122.html_ (http://traildies.com/id122.html)
        > BJ Neff
        >
        >
        >
        > In a message dated 1/27/2011 8:30:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
        > taxi_steve929@... writes:
        >
        >
        > Thanks Pat!! I had uploaded the coin to the photos section. I know
        > when I get grounders, or coins with uneven color, (I collect colonial era
        > copper) I find it's easer to eliminate the color to get rid of the
        > distractions. I don't expect you to do all of these, but I'll send the 12 pics I have,
        > over 2 emials. They're stitched already in rows so it will be two large
        > photos. I'm just going to go ahead and list them all but the 1921-P since
        > that is the one I noticed something on....the others are just plain old
        > Morgans I think. Thanks again, Steve
        >
        > --- On Wed, 1/26/11, Oldboats <altasierradecks@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: Oldboats <altasierradecks@...>
        > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Any Morgan Collectors who
        > know VAM's here?
        > To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 10:33 PM
        >
        >
        >
        > Steve,
        > I would be happy to attribute any and all Morgans for the Vams if you
        > would like. Email me any/all pics you have that you need attributed and I will
        > help.
        >
        > _Pat/altasierradecks@..._
        > (http://us.mc844.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Pat/altasierradecks@...)
        >
        > --- In _errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com_
        > (http://us.mc844.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com) ,
        > Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@> wrote:
        > >
        > > **** Photo uploaded to Default Album ---- should be last photo 1921
        > Morgan - taxi-steve ****
        > >
        > > I had a 60 coin group of Morgans I bought from a friend's brother who
        > found them along with a ton of other coins in a bus company bag in a house
        > he bought a few years ago...he just started finishing the basement last year
        > and found them in the ceiling. Probably put there in the 70's as that was
        > the newest coins. The old lady who had owned the place died 10 years ago
        > when he bought it, so I told this young guy and his wife to look at it as a
        > gift from the old owners. I had tried to talk him into keeping them as a
        > lower grade collection, but it's not easy to talk a non-collector into
        > selling, so I told him to ask around the coin shops and I gave him a number and
        > he jumped at it, which tells me the dealers all offered scrap, which a good
        > amount was, but there were some better dates and they all had this
        > original toning I liked. I haven't collected these in 30 years and am down to the
        > last few, and there wound up being an 1888-O DDO in decent condition
        > > that kept me from losing money when silver took a nose dive. (one of my
        > knacks is buying high and selling low)
        > >
        > > Getting these photoed for listing I noticed in the enlargement of this
        > 1921 there is quite a bit going on, so I loaded a photo of the coin with
        > some close ups of a couple of areas on the reverse. I went to the VAMS site
        > and saw quite a few entries for the 1921's, but couldn't match this
        > specifically. I haven't collected Bust Halves since the 80's so am out of shape
        > with attributing details on silver, and the toning doesn't help. (along with
        > a cheap camera).
        > >
        > > There is a break going through STATES. There is something going on
        > between In God We Trust and STATES, and also to the outside of both wings. When
        > I first saw it on the photo I though clash, but when I looked at the coin,
        > it's raised so I'm figuring A-multiple strike, B-some other type of
        > over-strike, or C-die chips and combined with the toning the patterns are playing
        > some mind games with my imagination.
        > >
        > > Hoping someone here is experienced enough with these to let me know if
        > this is something known to Morgan collectors....if not I'll just list it
        > with the closeups and let the viewers figure it out. Thanks in advance for
        > any info!! Steve
        > >
        >
      • Steve Frank
        I have to leave for the weekend, but I was just reminded that very late die states do the same.....so it might not have anything to do with pressure or speed
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 11, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          I have to leave for the weekend, but I was just reminded that very late die states do the same.....so it might not have anything to do with pressure or speed or anything else with the planchet....maybe an improperly made die will develope this with time. Getting closer...while most here know the answer. I just want to see if it may be a difference with coins made 250 years ago vs coins made now.

          --- On Fri, 2/11/11, taxi_steve929 <taxi_steve929@...> wrote:

          From: taxi_steve929 <taxi_steve929@...>
          Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Any Morgan Collectors who know VAM'...
          To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 6:06 PM

           

          I want to keep this alive...had to go to the groups site to find it. There may be more than 1 way this error occurs depending on how the coin is made...when the error repeats itself, its because the strike pressure was too strong when the die was created....there are plenty of instances where the same variety of colonial coin shows this effect on one and not on the other. I'm just trying to find some things written about this and haven't forgotten your request...was a little busy with non-coin stuff. I have to look at the dates of certain things comming into use, such as hubs and collars. Bifurcated legends are relatively common on George III British halfpence, most notably the letter I with the bottom curling up. Some coins have the entire legend with this effect, and straight lines running right to the edge....while another example of the exact same die variety shows none. I'm rambling a little thinking out loud so I can read this later and remember what I need to find, but what I'm trying to figure out is if this can occur both during die creation, and during the striking of the coin. When it occurs during die creation, all of the coins will have the effect struck with that die. When it happens when the blank is fed into the press and struck, it will only happen on some of the coins. I'll post a couple of photos to show this soon...maybe tonite if I can find them.

          Steve frank
          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, innff@... wrote:
          >
          > If this anomaly were caused by strike pressure, it would not be seen
          > exactly the same way on a number of coins in the same year. There is ample proof
          > that the trail lines are on the die and are formed before the die is put
          > into service. I would like to see some of the trails that are on the
          > halfpence or the colonials. If you have a chance, please contact me at
          > _traildies@..._ (mailto:traildies@...) . Thanks.
          >
          > BJ Neff
          >
          >
          > In a message dated 1/27/2011 10:22:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          > taxi_steve929@... writes:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi, aren't the "dual trail" lines just caused by strike pressure. They're
          > not uncommon on the 18th century British halfpence I collect, and some
          > colonials.
          >
          > --- On Thu, 1/27/11, innff@... <innff@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: innff@... <innff@...>
          > Subject: Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Any Morgan Collectors
          > who know VAM'...
          > To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 9:00 AM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Steve,
          > Since you are talking about the 1921-S Morgan, be on the lookout
          > for this type of anomaly. This is the link to that page.
          >
          >
          > _http://traildies.com/id122.html_ (http://traildies.com/id122.html)
          > BJ Neff
          >
          >
          >
          > In a message dated 1/27/2011 8:30:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          > taxi_steve929@... writes:
          >
          >
          > Thanks Pat!! I had uploaded the coin to the photos section. I know
          > when I get grounders, or coins with uneven color, (I collect colonial era
          > copper) I find it's easer to eliminate the color to get rid of the
          > distractions. I don't expect you to do all of these, but I'll send the 12 pics I have,
          > over 2 emials. They're stitched already in rows so it will be two large
          > photos. I'm just going to go ahead and list them all but the 1921-P since
          > that is the one I noticed something on....the others are just plain old
          > Morgans I think. Thanks again, Steve
          >
          > --- On Wed, 1/26/11, Oldboats <altasierradecks@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: Oldboats <altasierradecks@...>
          > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Any Morgan Collectors who
          > know VAM's here?
          > To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 10:33 PM
          >
          >
          >
          > Steve,
          > I would be happy to attribute any and all Morgans for the Vams if you
          > would like. Email me any/all pics you have that you need attributed and I will
          > help.
          >
          > _Pat/altasierradecks@..._
          > (http://us.mc844.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Pat/altasierradecks@...)
          >
          > --- In _errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com_
          > (http://us.mc844.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com) ,
          > Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@> wrote:
          > >
          > > **** Photo uploaded to Default Album ---- should be last photo 1921
          > Morgan - taxi-steve ****
          > >
          > > I had a 60 coin group of Morgans I bought from a friend's brother who
          > found them along with a ton of other coins in a bus company bag in a house
          > he bought a few years ago...he just started finishing the basement last year
          > and found them in the ceiling. Probably put there in the 70's as that was
          > the newest coins. The old lady who had owned the place died 10 years ago
          > when he bought it, so I told this young guy and his wife to look at it as a
          > gift from the old owners. I had tried to talk him into keeping them as a
          > lower grade collection, but it's not easy to talk a non-collector into
          > selling, so I told him to ask around the coin shops and I gave him a number and
          > he jumped at it, which tells me the dealers all offered scrap, which a good
          > amount was, but there were some better dates and they all had this
          > original toning I liked. I haven't collected these in 30 years and am down to the
          > last few, and there wound up being an 1888-O DDO in decent condition
          > > that kept me from losing money when silver took a nose dive. (one of my
          > knacks is buying high and selling low)
          > >
          > > Getting these photoed for listing I noticed in the enlargement of this
          > 1921 there is quite a bit going on, so I loaded a photo of the coin with
          > some close ups of a couple of areas on the reverse. I went to the VAMS site
          > and saw quite a few entries for the 1921's, but couldn't match this
          > specifically. I haven't collected Bust Halves since the 80's so am out of shape
          > with attributing details on silver, and the toning doesn't help. (along with
          > a cheap camera).
          > >
          > > There is a break going through STATES. There is something going on
          > between In God We Trust and STATES, and also to the outside of both wings. When
          > I first saw it on the photo I though clash, but when I looked at the coin,
          > it's raised so I'm figuring A-multiple strike, B-some other type of
          > over-strike, or C-die chips and combined with the toning the patterns are playing
          > some mind games with my imagination.
          > >
          > > Hoping someone here is experienced enough with these to let me know if
          > this is something known to Morgan collectors....if not I'll just list it
          > with the closeups and let the viewers figure it out. Thanks in advance for
          > any info!! Steve
          > >
          >

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