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What is this?

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  • mikegreer98125 <greer1978@hotmail.com>
    Mike Diamond, Apparently you got one of these in the mail. What does it look like to you? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=805556203 Mike
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 17, 2002
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      Mike Diamond,

      Apparently you got one of these in the mail. What does it look like
      to you?

      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=805556203

      Mike
    • Mike Diamond <mdia1@aol.com>
      The seller sent me two of the coins to examine. They superficially resemble a counterclash error, as the extra design elements are almost exclusively confined
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 17, 2002
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        The seller sent me two of the coins to examine. They superficially
        resemble a counterclash error, as the extra design elements are
        almost exclusively confined to the field. However, I do not believe
        they are mint errors.

        The seller has discovered at least six of these and each one is
        unique. A counterclash is a repetitive error -- there should be many
        examples of each one.

        One of the coins I examined showed definite warping of the reverse, a
        sign of post-strike damage or alteration. A second coin that the
        seller described to me also seemed to have a warped surface. The
        coin I examined that had a warped surface also had a peculiar wavy or
        swirly texture on the obverse that seemed very unnatural. A second
        coin that I did not examine appeared to have a similar wierd texture,
        to judge from the photograph I was sent.

        Many of the coins show multiple extra design elements, as many as
        five sets on one coin. This is not consistent with a counterclash
        error. Additionally, the extra elements show no weakening or
        enlargment as you move from one to the next. This is not consistent
        with a genuine error, let alone a counterclash.

        I believe this is some exotic form of post-strike design transfer. I
        don't know how it happened, though. It's possible that the coins
        were pressed into some surface that was soft enough to receive an
        impression and with just the right hardness to return a faint
        impression without appreciably affecting the raised design. I have
        seen fake double strikes where the counterfeiter managed to
        accomplish this trick. Again, I don't know how it's done.

        The seller appears honest and I have no reason to doubt his story
        that they were found in Fed wrapped rolls obtained from Wal-Mart. I
        can only presume that some bizarre event took place in the Mint after
        striking, or before or during the wrapping process.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mikegreer98125
        <greer1978@h...>" <greer1978@h...> wrote:
        > Mike Diamond,
        >
        > Apparently you got one of these in the mail. What does it look
        like
        > to you?
        >
        > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=805556203
        >
        > Mike
      • Mike Diamond <mdia1@aol.com>
        One more thing. The seller is now reporting finding specimens with the same kind of peculiar doubling on both faces. This certainly is not what you d expect
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 17, 2002
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          One more thing. The seller is now reporting finding specimens with
          the same kind of peculiar doubling on both faces. This certainly is
          not what you'd expect in a counterclash and is not something you'd
          see in any known error. Furthermore, the seller has reported finding
          similar doubling in an Indiana quarter (personal communication).

          Something peculiar is going on in his neck of the woods and I don't
          think the Mint is responsible.

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond
          <mdia1@a...>" <mdia1@a...> wrote:
          > The seller sent me two of the coins to examine. They superficially
          > resemble a counterclash error, as the extra design elements are
          > almost exclusively confined to the field. However, I do not
          believe
          > they are mint errors.
          >
          > The seller has discovered at least six of these and each one is
          > unique. A counterclash is a repetitive error -- there should be
          many
          > examples of each one.
          >
          > One of the coins I examined showed definite warping of the reverse,
          a
          > sign of post-strike damage or alteration. A second coin that the
          > seller described to me also seemed to have a warped surface. The
          > coin I examined that had a warped surface also had a peculiar wavy
          or
          > swirly texture on the obverse that seemed very unnatural. A second
          > coin that I did not examine appeared to have a similar wierd
          texture,
          > to judge from the photograph I was sent.
          >
          > Many of the coins show multiple extra design elements, as many as
          > five sets on one coin. This is not consistent with a counterclash
          > error. Additionally, the extra elements show no weakening or
          > enlargment as you move from one to the next. This is not
          consistent
          > with a genuine error, let alone a counterclash.
          >
          > I believe this is some exotic form of post-strike design transfer.
          I
          > don't know how it happened, though. It's possible that the coins
          > were pressed into some surface that was soft enough to receive an
          > impression and with just the right hardness to return a faint
          > impression without appreciably affecting the raised design. I have
          > seen fake double strikes where the counterfeiter managed to
          > accomplish this trick. Again, I don't know how it's done.
          >
          > The seller appears honest and I have no reason to doubt his story
          > that they were found in Fed wrapped rolls obtained from Wal-Mart.
          I
          > can only presume that some bizarre event took place in the Mint
          after
          > striking, or before or during the wrapping process.
          >
          > --- In
          errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "mikegreer98125
          > <greer1978@h...>" <greer1978@h...> wrote:
          > > Mike Diamond,
          > >
          > > Apparently you got one of these in the mail. What does it look
          > like
          > > to you?
          > >
          > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=805556203
          > >
          > > Mike
        • Mike Diamond <mdia1@aol.com>
          For a picture of a bona fide Sac counterclash, go to this site: http://home.earthlink.net/~smalldollars/dollar/add010.html The discoverer of this coin, Audie
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 17, 2002
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            For a picture of a bona fide Sac counterclash, go to this site:

            http://home.earthlink.net/~smalldollars/dollar/add010.html

            The discoverer of this coin, Audie Higareda, found well over 100 of
            these. This is what I mean about the repetitive nature of a
            counterclash error.
          • Mike Diamond <mdia1@aol.com>
            Here s another problem with KENCO s coins being counterclash errors (the only error type that they resemble). These would be by far the largest and clearest
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 19, 2002
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              Here's another problem with KENCO's coins being counterclash errors
              (the only error type that they resemble).

              These would be by far the largest and clearest counterclash errors
              ever reported. They seem to be abundant enough (more than 6 unique
              examples so far) that the most likely source would have to be design
              transfer from a struck coin.

              In order for this to happen, the die steel would have to be unusually
              soft, probably not much harder than the coin itself. If this were
              the case, you'd expect to see rapid deformation and fatigue of the
              die face. This is NOT the case with the dies that struck these
              coins. They do not show any pattern of accelerated or exaggerated
              distortion (i.e., a "soft die" error). The coins I saw were struck
              by dies that showed little or no evidence of radial flow lines or
              other typical examples of die fatigue.

              Combined with all the other problems I laid out earlier, this would
              seem to be one more argument against their being true mint errors.

              Still, I find them fascinating.
            • Jason Craton <craton@yakima.net>
              ... unusually ... Where was it earlier this year, Guatamala or some such place, that they found a large brass buck counterfeiting facility? Maybe these coins
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 19, 2002
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                >
                > In order for this to happen, the die steel would have to be
                unusually
                > soft, probably not much harder than the coin itself. If this were
                > the case, you'd expect to see rapid deformation and fatigue of the
                > die face. This is NOT the case with the dies that struck these
                > coins. They do not show any pattern of accelerated or exaggerated
                > distortion (i.e., a "soft die" error). The coins I saw were struck
                > by dies that showed little or no evidence of radial flow lines or
                > other typical examples of die fatigue.
                >
                > Combined with all the other problems I laid out earlier, this would
                > seem to be one more argument against their being true mint errors.
                >
                > Still, I find them fascinating.

                Where was it earlier this year, Guatamala or some such place, that
                they found a large brass buck counterfeiting facility? Maybe these
                coins are examples from that plant?????
                Jason
              • Mike Diamond <mdia1@aol.com>
                I have no reason to doubt KENCO s story that all the coins came from government-wrapped rolls that were distributed by Wal-Mart. He s always been upfront with
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 19, 2002
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                  I have no reason to doubt KENCO's story that all the coins came from
                  government-wrapped rolls that were distributed by Wal-Mart. He's
                  always been upfront with me, and hasn't minded my skepticism at all
                  on the question of whether they're true mint errors.

                  It's a real mystery how this design transfer transpired. I don't
                  know if it was accidental or intentional, but all the evidence seems
                  to point to something other than a die or striking error.

                  >
                  > Where was it earlier this year, Guatamala or some such place, that
                  > they found a large brass buck counterfeiting facility? Maybe these
                  > coins are examples from that plant?????
                  > Jason
                • maaswhole
                  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3033579452
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jul 6, 2003
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                  • Mike Diamond
                    While the poor resolution of the pictures precludes an absolute condemnation of the specimen, I am pretty confident that this coin was struck numerous times
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jul 6, 2003
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                      While the poor resolution of the pictures precludes an absolute
                      condemnation of the specimen, I am pretty confident that this coin
                      was struck numerous times with fake dies. The extreme weakness of
                      the strikes is suspicious as is the large number of strikes. And,
                      although I can't be positive, it looks like some areas on the reverse
                      have been flattened and warped.

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, maaswhole
                      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3033579452
                    • Steve Mills
                      I also like this from the ad: struck five times on the front and once on the back and immodesty compels me to mention my anti-hosing rules from earlier today
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jul 6, 2003
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                        I also like this from the ad:

                        "struck five times on the front and once on the back"


                        and immodesty compels me to mention my anti-hosing rules from earlier today (1,
                        2 and 3 in particular here):

                        1. I'm convinced that a fuzzy picture is generally not the incompetence of the
                        seller, purposeful deception in most cases.
                        2. I have been outright screwed mostly from sellers in a certain part of the
                        country - I'm convinced it's more than coincidence. I stay away.
                        3. "I don't know if it's real....." - they know and it's not.
                        4. Grandpa didn't know errors either.


                        Later.....
                        Steve

                        Error Type Collection:
                        http://www.five0central.com/ErrorCollection/Five0ErrorTypeSet.htm

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Mike Diamond [mailto:mdia1@...]
                        Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 8:00 PM
                        To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: What is this?


                        While the poor resolution of the pictures precludes an absolute
                        condemnation of the specimen, I am pretty confident that this coin
                        was struck numerous times with fake dies. The extreme weakness of
                        the strikes is suspicious as is the large number of strikes. And,
                        although I can't be positive, it looks like some areas on the reverse
                        have been flattened and warped.
                      • Mike Diamond
                        ... Yeah, that about ices it.
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jul 6, 2003
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                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Mills"
                          <steve@i...> wrote:
                          > I also like this from the ad:
                          >
                          > "struck five times on the front and once on the back"
                          >

                          Yeah, that about ices it.
                        • maaswhole
                          Coins like this lave me scratching my head in wonder, because how can somebody be sophisticated enough to turn out a fake die and then use it to make an
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jul 7, 2003
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                            Coins like this lave me scratching my head in wonder, because how can
                            somebody be sophisticated enough to turn out a fake die and then use
                            it to make an implausible coin like this?

                            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                            <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                            > While the poor resolution of the pictures precludes an absolute
                            > condemnation of the specimen, I am pretty confident that this coin
                            > was struck numerous times with fake dies. The extreme weakness of
                            > the strikes is suspicious as is the large number of strikes. And,
                            > although I can't be positive, it looks like some areas on the
                            reverse
                            > have been flattened and warped.
                            >
                            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, maaswhole
                            > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3033579452
                          • Mike Diamond
                            You see all levels of sophistication, from crude jobs like this to very convincing counterfeits that can fool experienced collectors. Making a fake die is not
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jul 7, 2003
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                              You see all levels of sophistication, from crude jobs like this to
                              very convincing counterfeits that can fool experienced collectors.

                              Making a fake die is not necessarily an involved process. You can
                              press a cent into a cent blank or copper slug and then mount the
                              latter on a dowel or metal cylinder.

                              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, maaswhole
                              <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                              > Coins like this lave me scratching my head in wonder, because how
                              can
                              > somebody be sophisticated enough to turn out a fake die and then
                              use
                              > it to make an implausible coin like this?
                              >
                            • Mike Diamond
                              I can t figure out what kind of error this is, or even if it IS an error: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3907535579 It s not a split die
                              Message 14 of 26 , Apr 17, 2004
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                                I can't figure out what kind of error this is, or even if it IS an
                                error:

                                http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3907535579

                                It's not a split die because it fails to reach the rim at either
                                pole. Also the design continues on top of it. It appears stronger
                                in the field than over the design. I suppose it could be some sort
                                of die damage, or even an example of "die subsidence". But I
                                hesitate to fork over this much money for such a long shot. I can't
                                pay in Euros, anyway.
                              • bull102797
                                How did this happen? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&item=3976105954&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOAB:US:6
                                Message 15 of 26 , May 27, 2005
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                                  How did this happen?

                                  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                  ViewItem&item=3976105954&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOAB:US:6
                                • bull102797
                                  ... Try this: http://tinyurl.com/7bwbr
                                  Message 16 of 26 , May 27, 2005
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                                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "bull102797"
                                    <bull102797@y...> wrote:
                                    > How did this happen?
                                    >
                                    > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                                    > ViewItem&item=3976105954&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOAB:US:6

                                    Try this:

                                    http://tinyurl.com/7bwbr
                                  • Mike Diamond
                                    The photos are less than ideal, but it does not appear to be a genuine error. The reverse looks flattened in the fashion of a coin that s been squashed. I
                                    Message 17 of 26 , May 27, 2005
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                                      The photos are less than ideal, but it does not appear to be a genuine
                                      error. The reverse looks flattened in the fashion of a coin that's
                                      been squashed. I also seem to detect some raised lines crossing the
                                      reverse, which would be another warning sign. These may be positive
                                      impressions of deep grooves in the the surface the coin was flattened
                                      against.

                                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "bull102797"
                                      <bull102797@y...> wrote:
                                      > How did this happen?
                                      >
                                      > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3976105954
                                    • bull102797@YAHOO.COM
                                      If it is not real. How come Rich Schemmer bidded on it? ... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3976105954 ...
                                      Message 18 of 26 , May 27, 2005
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                                        If it is not real. How come Rich Schemmer bidded on
                                        it?

                                        --- Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                                        > The photos are less than ideal, but it does not
                                        > appear to be a genuine
                                        > error. The reverse looks flattened in the fashion
                                        > of a coin that's
                                        > been squashed. I also seem to detect some raised
                                        > lines crossing the
                                        > reverse, which would be another warning sign. These
                                        > may be positive
                                        > impressions of deep grooves in the the surface the
                                        > coin was flattened
                                        > against.
                                        >
                                        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
                                        > "bull102797"
                                        > <bull102797@y...> wrote:
                                        > > How did this happen?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3976105954
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >

                                        __________________________________________________
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                                      • Mike Diamond
                                        I can t answer for Rich. I can only report my impressions. The obverse vaguely resembles a flipover double strike through a die cap on the second strike. But
                                        Message 19 of 26 , May 27, 2005
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                                          I can't answer for Rich. I can only report my impressions.

                                          The obverse vaguely resembles a flipover double strike through a die
                                          cap on the second strike. But the reverse is a real problem for me.

                                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "bull102797@Y..."
                                          <bull102797@y...> wrote:
                                          > If it is not real. How come Rich Schemmer bidded on
                                          > it?
                                        • bull102797@YAHOO.COM
                                          Maybe Rich would enlighten us. ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
                                          Message 20 of 26 , May 27, 2005
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                                            Maybe Rich would enlighten us.

                                            --- Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                                            > I can't answer for Rich. I can only report my
                                            > impressions.
                                            >
                                            > The obverse vaguely resembles a flipover double
                                            > strike through a die
                                            > cap on the second strike. But the reverse is a real
                                            > problem for me.
                                            >
                                            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
                                            > "bull102797@Y..."
                                            > <bull102797@y...> wrote:
                                            > > If it is not real. How come Rich Schemmer bidded
                                            > on
                                            > > it?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >

                                            __________________________________________________
                                            Do You Yahoo!?
                                            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                            http://mail.yahoo.com
                                          • Rich Schemmer
                                            ... errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, bull102797@Y... ... Even Rich Schemer bids on curious items?? Just caught my attention, had a return
                                            Message 21 of 26 , May 28, 2005
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                                              --- In
                                              errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "bull102797@Y..."
                                              <bull102797@y...> wrote:
                                              > If it is not real. How come Rich Schemmer bidded on
                                              > it?
                                              > HI
                                              Even Rich Schemer bids on curious items?? Just caught my
                                              attention, had a return privilage if it turned out to be fake.. (I
                                              think) I usually ask for one if I have some doubts on the coin..
                                              Coin looks like it may be bad, Not sure with out a up close look!
                                              But it caught my attention.. By the way I sometimes buy counterfiets
                                              for teaching purposes at the ANA Summer Seminar courses.. SO don't
                                              believe everytime Fred W., Mike D. or someothers bid on an item it
                                              must be "real". Especially if we're not bidding big $$ LOL
                                              Thanx
                                              Rich
                                              Rich Schemmer Error Coins
                                              http://WWW.RichErrors.com/store.php
                                              > --- Mike Diamond <mdia1@a...> wrote:
                                              > > The photos are less than ideal, but it does not
                                              > > appear to be a genuine
                                              > > error. The reverse looks flattened in the fashion
                                              > > of a coin that's
                                              > > been squashed. I also seem to detect some raised
                                              > > lines crossing the
                                              > > reverse, which would be another warning sign. These
                                              > > may be positive
                                              > > impressions of deep grooves in the the surface the
                                              > > coin was flattened
                                              > > against.
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com,
                                              > > "bull102797"
                                              > > <bull102797@y...> wrote:
                                              > > > How did this happen?
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3976105954
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > __________________________________________________
                                              > Do You Yahoo!?
                                              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                              > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                            • Peaceful Forces
                                              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230390630378&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_991wt_958 Thank you!!! ~Chef Ito~
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Nov 1, 2009
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                                              • jdrose_com
                                                I am guessing that it was buried for many years and then the corrosion was cleaned away. Leaving the mounds of denser, harder metal near the devices.
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Nov 1, 2009
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                                                  I am guessing that it was buried for many years and then the corrosion was cleaned away. Leaving the mounds of denser, harder metal near the devices.


                                                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Peaceful Forces" <humanrad@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230390630378&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_991wt_958
                                                  >
                                                  > Thank you!!!
                                                  >
                                                  > ~Chef Ito~
                                                  >
                                                • jeff ylitalo
                                                  Chef Ito, the coin appears to have taken an extended and rough acid bath, (altered outside the mint).   I ve encountered at least a dozen coins having
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Nov 1, 2009
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                                                    Chef Ito, the coin appears to have taken an extended and rough 'acid' bath, (altered outside the mint).
                                                     
                                                    I've encountered at least a dozen coins having the same diffused, soft look of all the die-struck design on either face.
                                                     
                                                    Jeff


                                                    --- On Sun, 11/1/09, Peaceful Forces <humanrad@...> wrote:

                                                    From: Peaceful Forces <humanrad@...>
                                                    Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] What is this?
                                                    To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Date: Sunday, November 1, 2009, 5:47 PM


                                                  • jdrose_com
                                                    ... Exactly. You distilled it perfectly.
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Nov 1, 2009
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                                                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > (altered outside the mint).
                                                      >  

                                                      Exactly. You distilled it perfectly.
                                                    • Michael
                                                      Someone messed with it outside the Mint. It seems to have some characteristics of rippled coins, which, legend has it, are produced by rotating wire
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Nov 1, 2009
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                                                        Someone messed with it outside the Mint. It seems to have some characteristics of "rippled" coins, which, legend has it, are produced by rotating wire brushes. I doubt that explanation is correct, but rippled coins are definitely not mint errors.

                                                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Peaceful Forces" <humanrad@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230390630378&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_991wt_958
                                                        >
                                                        > Thank you!!!
                                                        >
                                                        > ~Chef Ito~
                                                        >
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