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Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Error Question

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  • Steve Frank
    Thank Mike, makes perfect sense. I ve onwed a few of these, and figured someone here would have the answer....as opposed to unlapped dies which are not rare
    Message 1 of 9 , May 17, 2010
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      Thank Mike, makes perfect sense. I've onwed a few of these, and figured someone here would have the answer....as opposed to unlapped dies which are not rare with these counterfeit halfpence....I just like this because it seems when I've come across these, it's usually the entire die that is unlapped, where on this coin, someone missed just a small portion exhibiting isostasy. Sorry for the really bad pic....cheap camera.
       
      If this group is mainly focused on US federal or modern era errors (say that 10 times fast), I apologize fo the post.
       
                  Steve

      --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:

      From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
      Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Error Question
      To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 9:32 AM

       
      Considering that the planchets were fed into screw presses by hand, and the coins removed in the same fashion, it stands to reason that most of these multi-struck coins were produced intentionally. Such coins are generally referred to as "assisted errors" or "intentional errors".

      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@...> wrote:
      >
      > I'm a new member who is observing and learning a bit with the fine line between error types shown on the last series of posts.
      > I have a question regarding what defines an error. In the CNL many years ago, there was a great article by Jim Spilman on Multipe Offset Strike "errors"....since so many of these were obviously man-made (purposely made) as opposed to a production error, are they technically errors?? ie, people working at the mint would use a blank backing to seemingly try to outdo each other with some really odd multiple strikes, often employing the use of a blank planchet as a backing piece to create these. I used to have quite a bit of fun trying to figure out the exact sequence of events leading to the creation of some of these, and the article had the types listed by MOS type, often a combination of MOS types used to create a single coin.
      >  
      > I'd like to know if there is a definite answer on whether these are true errors or something else.
      >  
      >              Thanks!!
      >                 steve
      >

    • Steve Frank
      Here s one with full reverse isostasy, and a definition I ve kept around for years Jim Spilman had posted to a colonials group....or you can just say struck
      Message 2 of 9 , May 17, 2010
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        Here's one with full reverse isostasy, and a definition I've kept around for years Jim Spilman had posted to a colonials group....or you can just say struck from unlapped dies, but isostasy sounds nice.<s>

        --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@...> wrote:

        From: Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@...>
        Subject: Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Error Question
        To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 9:50 AM

         
        Thank Mike, makes perfect sense. I've onwed a few of these, and figured someone here would have the answer....as opposed to unlapped dies which are not rare with these counterfeit halfpence... .I just like this because it seems when I've come across these, it's usually the entire die that is unlapped, where on this coin, someone missed just a small portion exhibiting isostasy. Sorry for the really bad pic....cheap camera.
         
        If this group is mainly focused on US federal or modern era errors (say that 10 times fast), I apologize fo the post.
         
                    Steve

        --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:

        From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
        Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Error Question
        To: errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 9:32 AM

         
        Considering that the planchets were fed into screw presses by hand, and the coins removed in the same fashion, it stands to reason that most of these multi-struck coins were produced intentionally. Such coins are generally referred to as "assisted errors" or "intentional errors".

        --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm a new member who is observing and learning a bit with the fine line between error types shown on the last series of posts.
        > I have a question regarding what defines an error. In the CNL many years ago, there was a great article by Jim Spilman on Multipe Offset Strike "errors".... since so many of these were obviously man-made (purposely made) as opposed to a production error, are they technically errors?? ie, people working at the mint would use a blank backing to seemingly try to outdo each other with some really odd multiple strikes, often employing the use of a blank planchet as a backing piece to create these. I used to have quite a bit of fun trying to figure out the exact sequence of events leading to the creation of some of these, and the article had the types listed by MOS type, often a combination of MOS types used to create a single coin.
        >  
        > I'd like to know if there is a definite answer on whether these are true errors or something else.
        >  
        >              Thanks!!
        >                 steve
        >

      • Mike Diamond
        Interesting effect and one that I ve never seen on a 20th century coin (except maybe on a deeply-punched mintmark). Thanks for expanding my lexicon. I hadn t
        Message 3 of 9 , May 17, 2010
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          Interesting effect and one that I've never seen on a 20th century coin (except maybe on a deeply-punched mintmark).

          Thanks for expanding my lexicon. I hadn't heard of the term isostasy before. I assume "lapped" is synonymous with "dressed", "stoned", "polished", and "intentionally abraded".

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@...> wrote:
          >
          > Here's one with full reverse isostasy, and a definition I've kept around for years Jim Spilman had posted to a colonials group....or you can just say struck from unlapped dies, but isostasy sounds nice.<s>
          >
          > --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@...>
          > Subject: Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Error Question
          > To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 9:50 AM
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Thank Mike, makes perfect sense. I've onwed a few of these, and figured someone here would have the answer....as opposed to unlapped dies which are not rare with these counterfeit halfpence... .I just like this because it seems when I've come across these, it's usually the entire die that is unlapped, where on this coin, someone missed just a small portion exhibiting isostasy. Sorry for the really bad pic....cheap camera.
          >  
          > If this group is mainly focused on US federal or modern era errors (say that 10 times fast), I apologize fo the post.
          >  
          >             Steve
          >
          > --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
          > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Error Question
          > To: errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com
          > Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 9:32 AM
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          > Considering that the planchets were fed into screw presses by hand, and the coins removed in the same fashion, it stands to reason that most of these multi-struck coins were produced intentionally. Such coins are generally referred to as "assisted errors" or "intentional errors".
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@ ...> wrote:
          > >
          > > I'm a new member who is observing and learning a bit with the fine line between error types shown on the last series of posts.
          > > I have a question regarding what defines an error. In the CNL many years ago, there was a great article by Jim Spilman on Multipe Offset Strike "errors".... since so many of these were obviously man-made (purposely made) as opposed to a production error, are they technically errors?? ie, people working at the mint would use a blank backing to seemingly try to outdo each other with some really odd multiple strikes, often employing the use of a blank planchet as a backing piece to create these. I used to have quite a bit of fun trying to figure out the exact sequence of events leading to the creation of some of these, and the article had the types listed by MOS type, often a combination of MOS types used to create a single coin.
          > >  
          > > I'd like to know if there is a definite answer on whether these are true errors or something else.
          > >  
          > >              Thanks!!
          > >                 steve
          > >
          >
        • Steve Frank
          Yes. Smothing the die out to get rid of the isostasy...although I m not sure if Jim originated that word for this use. He used it back then with
          Message 4 of 9 , May 17, 2010
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            Yes. Smothing the die out to get rid of the isostasy...although I'm not sure if Jim originated that word for this use. He used it back then with numismatic....."Numismatic Isostasy"....all dies must be lapped before going into production or you'll get this effect. ...maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a die done to produce a medal in relief which would look like a coin, with the fields flattened and the devices raised wouldn't need any lapping.

            --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:

            From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
            Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Error Question
            To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 11:18 PM

             
            Interesting effect and one that I've never seen on a 20th century coin (except maybe on a deeply-punched mintmark).

            Thanks for expanding my lexicon. I hadn't heard of the term isostasy before. I assume "lapped" is synonymous with "dressed", "stoned", "polished", and "intentionally abraded".

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@...> wrote:
            >
            > Here's one with full reverse isostasy, and a definition I've kept around for years Jim Spilman had posted to a colonials group....or you can just say struck from unlapped dies, but isostasy sounds nice.<s>
            >
            > --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@...>
            > Subject: Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Error Question
            > To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 9:50 AM
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Thank Mike, makes perfect sense. I've onwed a few of these, and figured someone here would have the answer....as opposed to unlapped dies which are not rare with these counterfeit halfpence... .I just like this because it seems when I've come across these, it's usually the entire die that is unlapped, where on this coin, someone missed just a small portion exhibiting isostasy. Sorry for the really bad pic....cheap camera.
            >  
            > If this group is mainly focused on US federal or modern era errors (say that 10 times fast), I apologize fo the post.
            >  
            >             Steve
            >
            > --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
            > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Error Question
            > To: errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com
            > Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 9:32 AM
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            > Considering that the planchets were fed into screw presses by hand, and the coins removed in the same fashion, it stands to reason that most of these multi-struck coins were produced intentionally. Such coins are generally referred to as "assisted errors" or "intentional errors".
            >
            > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@ ...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I'm a new member who is observing and learning a bit with the fine line between error types shown on the last series of posts.
            > > I have a question regarding what defines an error. In the CNL many years ago, there was a great article by Jim Spilman on Multipe Offset Strike "errors".... since so many of these were obviously man-made (purposely made) as opposed to a production error, are they technically errors?? ie, people working at the mint would use a blank backing to seemingly try to outdo each other with some really odd multiple strikes, often employing the use of a blank planchet as a backing piece to create these. I used to have quite a bit of fun trying to figure out the exact sequence of events leading to the creation of some of these, and the article had the types listed by MOS type, often a combination of MOS types used to create a single coin.
            > >  
            > > I'd like to know if there is a definite answer on whether these are true errors or something else.
            > >  
            > >              Thanks!!
            > >                 steve
            > >
            >

          • Mike Diamond
            As far as I m aware, only proof dies and mint set dies are polished after hubbing, and this is only to acheive a mirror-like finish. I would assume that the
            Message 5 of 9 , May 18, 2010
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              As far as I'm aware, only proof dies and mint set dies are polished after hubbing, and this is only to acheive a mirror-like finish. I would assume that the pressure of the field portion of the die flattens any isostasy (pressure ridges) that develop during the initial stages of hubbing. Interestingly, I've never seen pressure ridges form alongside numbers that were punched into the die face through the 19th century.

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@...> wrote:
              >
              > Yes. Smothing the die out to get rid of the isostasy...although I'm not sure if Jim originated that word for this use. He used it back then with numismatic....."Numismatic Isostasy"....all dies must be lapped before going into production or you'll get this effect. ...maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a die done to produce a medal in relief which would look like a coin, with the fields flattened and the devices raised wouldn't need any lapping.
              >
              > --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
              > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Error Question
              > To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 11:18 PM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > Interesting effect and one that I've never seen on a 20th century coin (except maybe on a deeply-punched mintmark).
              >
              > Thanks for expanding my lexicon. I hadn't heard of the term isostasy before. I assume "lapped" is synonymous with "dressed", "stoned", "polished", and "intentionally abraded".
              >
              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Here's one with full reverse isostasy, and a definition I've kept around for years Jim Spilman had posted to a colonials group....or you can just say struck from unlapped dies, but isostasy sounds nice.<s>
              > >
              > > --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > From: Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@>
              > > Subject: Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Error Question
              > > To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
              > > Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 9:50 AM
              > >
              > >
              > >  
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Thank Mike, makes perfect sense. I've onwed a few of these, and figured someone here would have the answer....as opposed to unlapped dies which are not rare with these counterfeit halfpence... .I just like this because it seems when I've come across these, it's usually the entire die that is unlapped, where on this coin, someone missed just a small portion exhibiting isostasy. Sorry for the really bad pic....cheap camera.
              > >  
              > > If this group is mainly focused on US federal or modern era errors (say that 10 times fast), I apologize fo the post.
              > >  
              > >             Steve
              > >
              > > --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Mike Diamond <mdia1@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@>
              > > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Error Question
              > > To: errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com
              > > Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 9:32 AM
              > >
              > >
              > >  
              > >
              > > Considering that the planchets were fed into screw presses by hand, and the coins removed in the same fashion, it stands to reason that most of these multi-struck coins were produced intentionally. Such coins are generally referred to as "assisted errors" or "intentional errors".
              > >
              > > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@ ...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I'm a new member who is observing and learning a bit with the fine line between error types shown on the last series of posts.
              > > > I have a question regarding what defines an error. In the CNL many years ago, there was a great article by Jim Spilman on Multipe Offset Strike "errors".... since so many of these were obviously man-made (purposely made) as opposed to a production error, are they technically errors?? ie, people working at the mint would use a blank backing to seemingly try to outdo each other with some really odd multiple strikes, often employing the use of a blank planchet as a backing piece to create these. I used to have quite a bit of fun trying to figure out the exact sequence of events leading to the creation of some of these, and the article had the types listed by MOS type, often a combination of MOS types used to create a single coin.
              > > >  
              > > > I'd like to know if there is a definite answer on whether these are true errors or something else.
              > > >  
              > > >              Thanks!!
              > > >                 steve
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Steve Frank
              Good point. Would be a nice question to ask if anyone plans a visit to any of the mints in the near future....what exactly is the die preparation. With the
              Message 6 of 9 , May 18, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Good point. Would be a nice question to ask if anyone plans a visit to any of the mints in the near future....what exactly is the die preparation. With the high pressure strikes achieved now, it may be a dinosaur job.

                --- On Tue, 5/18/10, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:

                From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Error Question
                To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 9:10 AM

                 
                As far as I'm aware, only proof dies and mint set dies are polished after hubbing, and this is only to acheive a mirror-like finish. I would assume that the pressure of the field portion of the die flattens any isostasy (pressure ridges) that develop during the initial stages of hubbing. Interestingly, I've never seen pressure ridges form alongside numbers that were punched into the die face through the 19th century.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@...> wrote:
                >
                > Yes. Smothing the die out to get rid of the isostasy...although I'm not sure if Jim originated that word for this use. He used it back then with numismatic....."Numismatic Isostasy"....all dies must be lapped before going into production or you'll get this effect. ...maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a die done to produce a medal in relief which would look like a coin, with the fields flattened and the devices raised wouldn't need any lapping.
                >
                > --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Error Question
                > To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 11:18 PM
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                > Interesting effect and one that I've never seen on a 20th century coin (except maybe on a deeply-punched mintmark).
                >
                > Thanks for expanding my lexicon. I hadn't heard of the term isostasy before. I assume "lapped" is synonymous with "dressed", "stoned", "polished", and "intentionally abraded".
                >
                > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Here's one with full reverse isostasy, and a definition I've kept around for years Jim Spilman had posted to a colonials group....or you can just say struck from unlapped dies, but isostasy sounds nice.<s>
                > >
                > > --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > From: Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@>
                > > Subject: Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Error Question
                > > To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                > > Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 9:50 AM
                > >
                > >
                > >  
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Thank Mike, makes perfect sense. I've onwed a few of these, and figured someone here would have the answer....as opposed to unlapped dies which are not rare with these counterfeit halfpence... .I just like this because it seems when I've come across these, it's usually the entire die that is unlapped, where on this coin, someone missed just a small portion exhibiting isostasy. Sorry for the really bad pic....cheap camera.
                > >  
                > > If this group is mainly focused on US federal or modern era errors (say that 10 times fast), I apologize fo the post.
                > >  
                > >             Steve
                > >
                > > --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Mike Diamond <mdia1@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@>
                > > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Error Question
                > > To: errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com
                > > Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 9:32 AM
                > >
                > >
                > >  
                > >
                > > Considering that the planchets were fed into screw presses by hand, and the coins removed in the same fashion, it stands to reason that most of these multi-struck coins were produced intentionally. Such coins are generally referred to as "assisted errors" or "intentional errors".
                > >
                > > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, Steve Frank <taxi_steve929@ ...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I'm a new member who is observing and learning a bit with the fine line between error types shown on the last series of posts.
                > > > I have a question regarding what defines an error. In the CNL many years ago, there was a great article by Jim Spilman on Multipe Offset Strike "errors".... since so many of these were obviously man-made (purposely made) as opposed to a production error, are they technically errors?? ie, people working at the mint would use a blank backing to seemingly try to outdo each other with some really odd multiple strikes, often employing the use of a blank planchet as a backing piece to create these. I used to have quite a bit of fun trying to figure out the exact sequence of events leading to the creation of some of these, and the article had the types listed by MOS type, often a combination of MOS types used to create a single coin.
                > > >  
                > > > I'd like to know if there is a definite answer on whether these are true errors or something else.
                > > >  
                > > >              Thanks!!
                > > >                 steve
                > > >
                > >
                >

              • sfwendie
                Drat! For a while there I thought I d come across a new category of earthquake-generated coin errors...in geology, isostasy (var. isostacy) is the theory that
                Message 7 of 9 , May 18, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Drat! For a while there I thought I'd come across a new category of earthquake-generated coin errors...in geology, isostasy (var. isostacy) is the theory that there are more earthquakes in some regions than others because the individual plates are in different states of equilibrium (floating) and so they bump into each other at different rates, depths, etc. Think of a couple of different-sized icebergs and you have the general idea.

                  I can see how this might apply to coins and I think I have a possible example in a Lincoln penny. If it's surface flows. I'm getting the rest of the cables I need to take a couple of photos. (Upgrading Windows upset the delicate balance of drivers I had, and I have to integrate technologies.)

                  Anyways, I'd be interested to hear a little more about Numismatic Isostasy. And as far as I know, an error coin is an error coin, no matter which era it came from. ;^)
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