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Revisiting Weak Edged Presidential Dollars

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  • portpere
    Hi all, Please take a look at the Harrison Presidential dollar pics that I have posted in the EDGE ERROR album. I have found it impossible to get any
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 16, 2009
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      Hi all,

      Please take a look at the Harrison Presidential dollar pics that I have posted in the EDGE ERROR album. I have found it impossible to get any definitive criteria for attribution of "Weak Edged" dollars and was hoping one of you had some answers.

      Thanks,

      John
    • John Lorenzo
      From recent information we do know the following four types of errors: Upside Down Lettering As a result of the minting process, edge lettering occurs without
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 17, 2009
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        From recent information we do know the following four types of errors:

        Upside Down Lettering
        As a result of the minting process, edge lettering occurs without regards to the heads-tails orientation of the coin. As such, so-called upside down lettering is not an error. Statistically 50% of Presidential Dollars should have edge lettering heads-side up and 50% should have edge lettering tails side up.

        Proof coins are struck using a different process than non-proof strikes. The edge lettering is actually applied when each coin is struck by using a three piece collar. As a result, the edge lettering on proof coins should always appear heads-side up and in the same location on the circumference of the coin. Proof Presidential Dollar coins with upside down lettering would be considered errors.

        Missing Edge Lettering
        One of the first new error types to surface for the Presidential Dollar series was the "Missing Edge Lettering" Error Coin. This are also sometimes referred to as "Smooth Edge Dollars."

        This error occurs when coins do not reach the second step of the two step minting process. You will recall that the first step strikes the obverse and reverse designs of the coin and the second stage produces the edge lettering.

        The error is most commonly found on George Washington Presidential Dollars. An estimated 100,000 to 200,000 were released into circulation. The error occurred less commonly on John Adams Dollars.

        Doubled Lettering Presidential Dollars
        Another early error discovery was the "Doubled Edge Lettering" Error Coin. This error may also occur with "Inverted Doubled Edge Lettering."

        This error occurs when coins go through the second step of the minting process twice. As a result, the coins will display two sets of edge lettering, or double edge lettering. If the coin goes through the edge-incusing machine heads-side up and then tails-side up, the two sets of lettering would occur in two directions, or inverted.

        This error is more commonly found on John Adams Presidential Dollars and less commonly on George Washington Presidential Dollars.

        Lettered Blank Planchet
        A final new error type began to surface in 2007. This error is the lettered blank planchet.

        This type of error occurs when a blank is not struck in the first step of the minting process, but goes through the edge-incusing machine in the second step. This will result in blank planchets with lettered edges.

        The errors have surfaced sporadically since the launch of the Presidential Dollar series in 2007. So far, this seems to be the scarcest and most valuable of the new Presidential Dollar Error Types.

        A machine invented by French engineer Jean Castaing that added the edge lettering and devices to early U.S. coins before they were struck. Castaing machines were used until the introduction of close collar dies, which applied the edge device during the striking process.

        If a coin was not set properly in this machine the edge lettering became weak. We see this in early U.S. coins such as Bust Half Dollars.

        So what happen here? ... improper pressure and/or worn down lettering on the edge incusing machine ... an intesresting fifth? error ...




        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi all,
        >
        > Please take a look at the Harrison Presidential dollar pics that I have posted in the EDGE ERROR album. I have found it impossible to get any definitive criteria for attribution of "Weak Edged" dollars and was hoping one of you had some answers.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > John
        >
      • Susan Headley
        John, Interesting recap of the Presidential Dollar edge lettering errors. =) As for #5, weak edge lettering, I have seen the Schuler Edge Lettering Machine at
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 17, 2009
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          John,
           
          Interesting recap of the Presidential Dollar edge lettering errors.  =)
           
          As for #5, weak edge lettering, I have seen the Schuler Edge Lettering Machine at the Philadelphia Mint during my floor tour in February, and the machine does have the capability to be configured as to how much pressure the coins passing through receive during edge impression.  I have also studied the shapes of the letters on numerous Presidential dollars, and I personally think the weak edge lettering is caused by one of two events:
           
          (a)  misconfigured machine
           
          (b)  worn edge lettering segments (dies)
           
          Partial edge lettering is also most likely a misconfiguration problem (between the die segment and the impeller.)  That machine really flies during full-speed operation and can have substantial vibration if it isn't properly calibrated and attended to during operation.  The machine can get out of true over time.
           
          An interesting side note:  The damage to the edges of the planchets on Presidential Dollars, where the rims and edges show deep gouges and cuts, is happening during the annealing and polishing stages (according to the Head Coiner, the guy in charge of the production floor.)  These gouges are not happening during the edge lettering process, he was very clear on this point.  He said that if the edge lettering machine got backed up somehow, there would be thousands of coins scattering all around the vicinity of the machine within minutes, and they haven't seen this nor would this theoretical back-up cause gouges to more than a few coins that were in the impeller at the time.  The machine will shut down instantly and alarm if it gets jammed somehow.
           
          Susan
           


          _____________________________________

          Susan Headley

          Guide to Coins

          coins.about.com

          About.com | Guidance. Not Guesswork.

          About.com is part of The New York Times Company

          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 3:16 PM
          Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Revisiting Weak Edged Presidential Dollars

          From recent information we do know the following four types of errors:

          Upside Down Lettering
          As a result of the minting process, edge lettering occurs without regards to the heads-tails orientation of the coin. As such, so-called upside down lettering is not an error. Statistically 50% of Presidential Dollars should have edge lettering heads-side up and 50% should have edge lettering tails side up.

          Proof coins are struck using a different process than non-proof strikes. The edge lettering is actually applied when each coin is struck by using a three piece collar. As a result, the edge lettering on proof coins should always appear heads-side up and in the same location on the circumference of the coin. Proof Presidential Dollar coins with upside down lettering would be considered errors.

          Missing Edge Lettering
          One of the first new error types to surface for the Presidential Dollar series was the "Missing Edge Lettering" Error Coin. This are also sometimes referred to as "Smooth Edge Dollars."

          This error occurs when coins do not reach the second step of the two step minting process. You will recall that the first step strikes the obverse and reverse designs of the coin and the second stage produces the edge lettering.

          The error is most commonly found on George Washington Presidential Dollars. An estimated 100,000 to 200,000 were released into circulation. The error occurred less commonly on John Adams Dollars.

          Doubled Lettering Presidential Dollars
          Another early error discovery was the "Doubled Edge Lettering" Error Coin. This error may also occur with "Inverted Doubled Edge Lettering."

          This error occurs when coins go through the second step of the minting process twice. As a result, the coins will display two sets of edge lettering, or double edge lettering. If the coin goes through the edge-incusing machine heads-side up and then tails-side up, the two sets of lettering would occur in two directions, or inverted.

          This error is more commonly found on John Adams Presidential Dollars and less commonly on George Washington Presidential Dollars.

          Lettered Blank Planchet
          A final new error type began to surface in 2007. This error is the lettered blank planchet.

          This type of error occurs when a blank is not struck in the first step of the minting process, but goes through the edge-incusing machine in the second step. This will result in blank planchets with lettered edges.

          The errors have surfaced sporadically since the launch of the Presidential Dollar series in 2007. So far, this seems to be the scarcest and most valuable of the new Presidential Dollar Error Types.

          A machine invented by French engineer Jean Castaing that added the edge lettering and devices to early U.S. coins before they were struck. Castaing machines were used until the introduction of close collar dies, which applied the edge device during the striking process.

          If a coin was not set properly in this machine the edge lettering became weak. We see this in early U.S. coins such as Bust Half Dollars.

          So what happen here? ... improper pressure and/or worn down lettering on the edge incusing machine ... an intesresting fifth? error ...

          --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, portpere <no_reply@.. .> wrote:
          >
          > Hi all,
          >
          > Please take a look at the Harrison Presidential dollar pics that I have posted in the EDGE ERROR album. I have found it impossible to get any definitive criteria for attribution of "Weak Edged" dollars and was hoping one of you had some answers.
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > John
          >

        • portpere
          Thanks Jon & Susan, Here is what I have found on the PCGS message boards. Missing Edge lettering - when the coin never went thru the edge process. Partial Edge
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 18, 2009
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            Thanks Jon & Susan,

            Here is what I have found on the PCGS message boards.
            Missing Edge lettering - when the coin never went thru the edge process.

            Partial Edge lettering - when at least one entire edge letter is totally missing.

            Weak Edge lettering - when the edge has an overall weak strike AND at least one letter is partially struck (i.e no leg "P".)

            The slabbed examples that I've seen have a top to bottom or bottom to top fading of the edge letters with parts of some letters totally missing, kind of like the coins I have loaded onto the edge error album. Still, I have not been able to get a definitive answer from PCGS attributors. Weak edged Presidential dollar attribution seems to be a "crap shoot" at best, like a coin you think is defintely a 70 gets a 69 slab and you never know why it got that grade.
            I have talked with Ken Potter about this and he feels this designation is more subjective than objective and it is difficult to put in place a "measure" of weakness.
            I guess my plan of action will be to choose the weakest of my "weak edged" and the strongest of my "weak edged", package them up, send them to PCGS and cross my fingers. If they both come back with "weak edged" attributed, I will be able to assume that all of my others are "weak. If one comes back "weak", I will have an idea of the degree of weakness they are looking for. If neither comes back "weak", I'll continue to be lost on this so-called error.
            Thanks for the comments,
            John

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Headley" <galaxiana@...> wrote:
            >
            > John,
            >
            > Interesting recap of the Presidential Dollar edge lettering errors. =)
            >
            > As for #5, weak edge lettering, I have seen the Schuler Edge Lettering Machine at the Philadelphia Mint during my floor tour in February, and the machine does have the capability to be configured as to how much pressure the coins passing through receive during edge impression. I have also studied the shapes of the letters on numerous Presidential dollars, and I personally think the weak edge lettering is caused by one of two events:
            >
            > (a) misconfigured machine
            >
            > (b) worn edge lettering segments (dies)
            >
            > Partial edge lettering is also most likely a misconfiguration problem (between the die segment and the impeller.) That machine really flies during full-speed operation and can have substantial vibration if it isn't properly calibrated and attended to during operation. The machine can get out of true over time.
            >
            > An interesting side note: The damage to the edges of the planchets on Presidential Dollars, where the rims and edges show deep gouges and cuts, is happening during the annealing and polishing stages (according to the Head Coiner, the guy in charge of the production floor.) These gouges are not happening during the edge lettering process, he was very clear on this point. He said that if the edge lettering machine got backed up somehow, there would be thousands of coins scattering all around the vicinity of the machine within minutes, and they haven't seen this nor would this theoretical back-up cause gouges to more than a few coins that were in the impeller at the time. The machine will shut down instantly and alarm if it gets jammed somehow.
            >
            > Susan
            >
            >
            >
            > _____________________________________
            > Susan Headley
            >
            > Guide to Coins
            >
            > coins.about.com
            >
            >
            > About.com | Guidance. Not Guesswork.
            >
            > About.com is part of The New York Times Company
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: John Lorenzo
            > To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 3:16 PM
            > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Revisiting Weak Edged Presidential Dollars
            >
            >
            > From recent information we do know the following four types of errors:
            >
            > Upside Down Lettering
            > As a result of the minting process, edge lettering occurs without regards to the heads-tails orientation of the coin. As such, so-called upside down lettering is not an error. Statistically 50% of Presidential Dollars should have edge lettering heads-side up and 50% should have edge lettering tails side up.
            >
            > Proof coins are struck using a different process than non-proof strikes. The edge lettering is actually applied when each coin is struck by using a three piece collar. As a result, the edge lettering on proof coins should always appear heads-side up and in the same location on the circumference of the coin. Proof Presidential Dollar coins with upside down lettering would be considered errors.
            >
            > Missing Edge Lettering
            > One of the first new error types to surface for the Presidential Dollar series was the "Missing Edge Lettering" Error Coin. This are also sometimes referred to as "Smooth Edge Dollars."
            >
            > This error occurs when coins do not reach the second step of the two step minting process. You will recall that the first step strikes the obverse and reverse designs of the coin and the second stage produces the edge lettering.
            >
            > The error is most commonly found on George Washington Presidential Dollars. An estimated 100,000 to 200,000 were released into circulation. The error occurred less commonly on John Adams Dollars.
            >
            > Doubled Lettering Presidential Dollars
            > Another early error discovery was the "Doubled Edge Lettering" Error Coin. This error may also occur with "Inverted Doubled Edge Lettering."
            >
            > This error occurs when coins go through the second step of the minting process twice. As a result, the coins will display two sets of edge lettering, or double edge lettering. If the coin goes through the edge-incusing machine heads-side up and then tails-side up, the two sets of lettering would occur in two directions, or inverted.
            >
            > This error is more commonly found on John Adams Presidential Dollars and less commonly on George Washington Presidential Dollars.
            >
            > Lettered Blank Planchet
            > A final new error type began to surface in 2007. This error is the lettered blank planchet.
            >
            > This type of error occurs when a blank is not struck in the first step of the minting process, but goes through the edge-incusing machine in the second step. This will result in blank planchets with lettered edges.
            >
            > The errors have surfaced sporadically since the launch of the Presidential Dollar series in 2007. So far, this seems to be the scarcest and most valuable of the new Presidential Dollar Error Types.
            >
            > A machine invented by French engineer Jean Castaing that added the edge lettering and devices to early U.S. coins before they were struck. Castaing machines were used until the introduction of close collar dies, which applied the edge device during the striking process.
            >
            > If a coin was not set properly in this machine the edge lettering became weak. We see this in early U.S. coins such as Bust Half Dollars.
            >
            > So what happen here? ... improper pressure and/or worn down lettering on the edge incusing machine ... an intesresting fifth? error ...
            >
            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere <no_reply@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi all,
            > >
            > > Please take a look at the Harrison Presidential dollar pics that I have posted in the EDGE ERROR album. I have found it impossible to get any definitive criteria for attribution of "Weak Edged" dollars and was hoping one of you had some answers.
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > >
            > > John
            > >
            >
          • fred_weinberg
            ... John, If you do send them into PCGS, please make sure that you write on the actual submission flip something like Weak Edge Lettering - If not, it might
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 18, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere <no_reply@...> wrote:
              >
              John,

              If you do send them into PCGS, please make sure
              that you write on the actual submission flip
              something like " Weak Edge Lettering" -

              If not, it might not be seen/noted.







              > Thanks Jon & Susan,
              >
              > Here is what I have found on the PCGS message boards.
              > Missing Edge lettering - when the coin never went thru the edge process.
              >
              > Partial Edge lettering - when at least one entire edge letter is totally missing.
              >
              > Weak Edge lettering - when the edge has an overall weak strike AND at least one letter is partially struck (i.e no leg "P".)
              >
              > The slabbed examples that I've seen have a top to bottom or bottom to top fading of the edge letters with parts of some letters totally missing, kind of like the coins I have loaded onto the edge error album. Still, I have not been able to get a definitive answer from PCGS attributors. Weak edged Presidential dollar attribution seems to be a "crap shoot" at best, like a coin you think is defintely a 70 gets a 69 slab and you never know why it got that grade.
              > I have talked with Ken Potter about this and he feels this designation is more subjective than objective and it is difficult to put in place a "measure" of weakness.
              > I guess my plan of action will be to choose the weakest of my "weak edged" and the strongest of my "weak edged", package them up, send them to PCGS and cross my fingers. If they both come back with "weak edged" attributed, I will be able to assume that all of my others are "weak. If one comes back "weak", I will have an idea of the degree of weakness they are looking for. If neither comes back "weak", I'll continue to be lost on this so-called error.
              > Thanks for the comments,
              > John
              >
              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Headley" <galaxiana@> wrote:
              > >
              > > John,
              > >
              > > Interesting recap of the Presidential Dollar edge lettering errors. =)
              > >
              > > As for #5, weak edge lettering, I have seen the Schuler Edge Lettering Machine at the Philadelphia Mint during my floor tour in February, and the machine does have the capability to be configured as to how much pressure the coins passing through receive during edge impression. I have also studied the shapes of the letters on numerous Presidential dollars, and I personally think the weak edge lettering is caused by one of two events:
              > >
              > > (a) misconfigured machine
              > >
              > > (b) worn edge lettering segments (dies)
              > >
              > > Partial edge lettering is also most likely a misconfiguration problem (between the die segment and the impeller.) That machine really flies during full-speed operation and can have substantial vibration if it isn't properly calibrated and attended to during operation. The machine can get out of true over time.
              > >
              > > An interesting side note: The damage to the edges of the planchets on Presidential Dollars, where the rims and edges show deep gouges and cuts, is happening during the annealing and polishing stages (according to the Head Coiner, the guy in charge of the production floor.) These gouges are not happening during the edge lettering process, he was very clear on this point. He said that if the edge lettering machine got backed up somehow, there would be thousands of coins scattering all around the vicinity of the machine within minutes, and they haven't seen this nor would this theoretical back-up cause gouges to more than a few coins that were in the impeller at the time. The machine will shut down instantly and alarm if it gets jammed somehow.
              > >
              > > Susan
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > _____________________________________
              > > Susan Headley
              > >
              > > Guide to Coins
              > >
              > > coins.about.com
              > >
              > >
              > > About.com | Guidance. Not Guesswork.
              > >
              > > About.com is part of The New York Times Company
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: John Lorenzo
              > > To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 3:16 PM
              > > Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: Revisiting Weak Edged Presidential Dollars
              > >
              > >
              > > From recent information we do know the following four types of errors:
              > >
              > > Upside Down Lettering
              > > As a result of the minting process, edge lettering occurs without regards to the heads-tails orientation of the coin. As such, so-called upside down lettering is not an error. Statistically 50% of Presidential Dollars should have edge lettering heads-side up and 50% should have edge lettering tails side up.
              > >
              > > Proof coins are struck using a different process than non-proof strikes. The edge lettering is actually applied when each coin is struck by using a three piece collar. As a result, the edge lettering on proof coins should always appear heads-side up and in the same location on the circumference of the coin. Proof Presidential Dollar coins with upside down lettering would be considered errors.
              > >
              > > Missing Edge Lettering
              > > One of the first new error types to surface for the Presidential Dollar series was the "Missing Edge Lettering" Error Coin. This are also sometimes referred to as "Smooth Edge Dollars."
              > >
              > > This error occurs when coins do not reach the second step of the two step minting process. You will recall that the first step strikes the obverse and reverse designs of the coin and the second stage produces the edge lettering.
              > >
              > > The error is most commonly found on George Washington Presidential Dollars. An estimated 100,000 to 200,000 were released into circulation. The error occurred less commonly on John Adams Dollars.
              > >
              > > Doubled Lettering Presidential Dollars
              > > Another early error discovery was the "Doubled Edge Lettering" Error Coin. This error may also occur with "Inverted Doubled Edge Lettering."
              > >
              > > This error occurs when coins go through the second step of the minting process twice. As a result, the coins will display two sets of edge lettering, or double edge lettering. If the coin goes through the edge-incusing machine heads-side up and then tails-side up, the two sets of lettering would occur in two directions, or inverted.
              > >
              > > This error is more commonly found on John Adams Presidential Dollars and less commonly on George Washington Presidential Dollars.
              > >
              > > Lettered Blank Planchet
              > > A final new error type began to surface in 2007. This error is the lettered blank planchet.
              > >
              > > This type of error occurs when a blank is not struck in the first step of the minting process, but goes through the edge-incusing machine in the second step. This will result in blank planchets with lettered edges.
              > >
              > > The errors have surfaced sporadically since the launch of the Presidential Dollar series in 2007. So far, this seems to be the scarcest and most valuable of the new Presidential Dollar Error Types.
              > >
              > > A machine invented by French engineer Jean Castaing that added the edge lettering and devices to early U.S. coins before they were struck. Castaing machines were used until the introduction of close collar dies, which applied the edge device during the striking process.
              > >
              > > If a coin was not set properly in this machine the edge lettering became weak. We see this in early U.S. coins such as Bust Half Dollars.
              > >
              > > So what happen here? ... improper pressure and/or worn down lettering on the edge incusing machine ... an intesresting fifth? error ...
              > >
              > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere <no_reply@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi all,
              > > >
              > > > Please take a look at the Harrison Presidential dollar pics that I have posted in the EDGE ERROR album. I have found it impossible to get any definitive criteria for attribution of "Weak Edged" dollars and was hoping one of you had some answers.
              > > >
              > > > Thanks,
              > > >
              > > > John
              > > >
              > >
              >
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