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Re: Flattened Design Elements on Presidential Dollars

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  • Mike Diamond
    Let me ask you a question first. Can you estimate how many die pairs are represented in your entire sample? ... back ... edge ... along ... to ... to ... in
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 7, 2008
      Let me ask you a question first. Can you estimate how many die pairs
      are represented in your entire sample?

      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
      <no_reply@...> wrote:
      >
      > Mike,
      > Upon second, third and fourth thoughts on this issue, I am going
      back
      > to the original obverse/reverse strike. My reasoning is that the
      edge
      > strike is random, the edge inscription can be located anywhere
      along
      > the circumference of any coin and I do not believe the mint tries
      to
      > begin that strike on any particular location. If this had anything
      to
      > do with the edge lettering device, this flattening would be found
      in
      > different locations on the faces of the coins.
      > What if I sent you a 25 coin roll with all coins having the same
      > problem? I can put a roll together with very strong, strong and
      > progressively weaker flattening. Would that help? The flattening is
      > always centered in that same area and this has become quite
      > a "brainbuster". Not losing sleep over it, but thinking about it
      > waaaaaay too much...lol
      > John
      >
      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
      > <mdia1@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I haven't heard of any component of the lettering device that
      would
      > > create this effect. Then again, I don't know the details of the
      > > mechanism that rolls the coin through the lettering die. I've
      only
      > > seen photos of the slot-like die itself.
      > >
      > > Your idea warrants consideration, at least until we have enough
      > > information to either embrace it or dismiss it.
      > >
      > > Mike
      > >
      > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
      > > <no_reply@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Thank you Mike,
      > > > If we are eliminating the obverse/reverse strike, I am leaning
      > > > towards whatever mechanical process is used to hold the coin in
      > > place
      > > > for the edge strike. I am not up to date on exactly how the
      > process
      > > > is accomplished, but believe that they would need to have
      > something
      > > > holding the coin down in the edge making device. This would
      > ensure
      > > > that there are few crooked edge letterings or bendings of the
      > coins
      > > > in the press. If too much pressure is exerted pushing the coin
      > into
      > > > place, it might damage the lettering near the rim.
      > > > What do you think?
      > > > I have seen a few examples of various Presidents sold on eBay
      > where
      > > > the obverse lettering near the edge is almost completely gone
      and
      > > > lots of dimpling around that area. They do not look like filled
      > > dies,
      > > > more like a complete flattening of those letters. I have one
      > > example
      > > > (a Monroe or Madison) and will try and get a pic in the default
      > > album
      > > > today.
      > > > Anyone who has a good handle on the edge striking process,
      please
      > > > share that knowledge. Are they changing the edge process for
      2009?
      > > > John
      > >
      >
    • portpere
      Mike, From this $250 mint bag, I would say 3 different die pairs. Of the 250, 56 had the flattening, about 80 had the same small die chips around Van Burens
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 7, 2008
        Mike,
        From this $250 mint bag, I would say 3 different die pairs. Of the
        250, 56 had the flattening, about 80 had the same small die chips
        around Van Burens chin and the rest had no discernable PUPs. All of
        the edges on the entire bag seem to have been from the same set of
        edge dies or at least no defining characteristics on the edges.

        I have been searching dimes all day today, looking for some of those
        nice 2007P shattered dies...no luck yet, but I always find a few old
        silver dimes and other errors to save. Cherrypicking bank rolls and
        boxes gives me a mission anyway, I have not been able to drive for
        months and have been mostly homebound.

        Let me know if you want to take a look at 25 examples of various
        strengths and I'll get it in the mail by Tuesday.

        John

        .--- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
        <mdia1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Let me ask you a question first. Can you estimate how many die
        pairs
        > are represented in your entire sample?
        >
        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
        > <no_reply@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Mike,
        > > Upon second, third and fourth thoughts on this issue, I am going
        > back
        > > to the original obverse/reverse strike. My reasoning is that the
        > edge
        > > strike is random, the edge inscription can be located anywhere
        > along
        > > the circumference of any coin and I do not believe the mint tries
        > to
        > > begin that strike on any particular location. If this had
        anything
        > to
        > > do with the edge lettering device, this flattening would be found
        > in
        > > different locations on the faces of the coins.
        > > What if I sent you a 25 coin roll with all coins having the same
        > > problem? I can put a roll together with very strong, strong and
        > > progressively weaker flattening. Would that help? The flattening
        is
        > > always centered in that same area and this has become quite
        > > a "brainbuster". Not losing sleep over it, but thinking about it
        > > waaaaaay too much...lol
        > > John
        > >
        > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
        Diamond"
        > > <mdia1@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I haven't heard of any component of the lettering device that
        > would
        > > > create this effect. Then again, I don't know the details of
        the
        > > > mechanism that rolls the coin through the lettering die. I've
        > only
        > > > seen photos of the slot-like die itself.
        > > >
        > > > Your idea warrants consideration, at least until we have enough
        > > > information to either embrace it or dismiss it.
        > > >
        > > > Mike
        > > >
        > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
        > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Thank you Mike,
        > > > > If we are eliminating the obverse/reverse strike, I am
        leaning
        > > > > towards whatever mechanical process is used to hold the coin
        in
        > > > place
        > > > > for the edge strike. I am not up to date on exactly how the
        > > process
        > > > > is accomplished, but believe that they would need to have
        > > something
        > > > > holding the coin down in the edge making device. This would
        > > ensure
        > > > > that there are few crooked edge letterings or bendings of the
        > > coins
        > > > > in the press. If too much pressure is exerted pushing the
        coin
        > > into
        > > > > place, it might damage the lettering near the rim.
        > > > > What do you think?
        > > > > I have seen a few examples of various Presidents sold on eBay
        > > where
        > > > > the obverse lettering near the edge is almost completely gone
        > and
        > > > > lots of dimpling around that area. They do not look like
        filled
        > > > dies,
        > > > > more like a complete flattening of those letters. I have one
        > > > example
        > > > > (a Monroe or Madison) and will try and get a pic in the
        default
        > > > album
        > > > > today.
        > > > > Anyone who has a good handle on the edge striking process,
        > please
        > > > > share that knowledge. Are they changing the edge process for
        > 2009?
        > > > > John
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Mike Diamond
        The fact that we re dealing with several different die pairs is of uncertain significance. But I just wanted a better idea of what I m dealing with. You can
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 8, 2008
          The fact that we're dealing with several different die pairs is of
          uncertain significance. But I just wanted a better idea of what I'm
          dealing with. You can send along the sample of 25 and I'll see what
          kind of headway I can make.

          Thanks.

          Mike

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
          <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > Mike,
          > From this $250 mint bag, I would say 3 different die pairs. Of the
          > 250, 56 had the flattening, about 80 had the same small die chips
          > around Van Burens chin and the rest had no discernable PUPs. All of
          > the edges on the entire bag seem to have been from the same set of
          > edge dies or at least no defining characteristics on the edges.
          >
          > I have been searching dimes all day today, looking for some of
          those
          > nice 2007P shattered dies...no luck yet, but I always find a few
          old
          > silver dimes and other errors to save. Cherrypicking bank rolls and
          > boxes gives me a mission anyway, I have not been able to drive for
          > months and have been mostly homebound.
          >
          > Let me know if you want to take a look at 25 examples of various
          > strengths and I'll get it in the mail by Tuesday.
          >
          > John
        • portpere
          Ok Mike, Will get that out today. Just to let you know, I have counted the 56 flattened examples as a specific die pair. They have no other PUPS which match
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 9, 2008
            Ok Mike,
            Will get that out today. Just to let you know, I have counted the 56
            flattened examples as a specific die pair. They have no other PUPS
            which match the others. Out of those, I will make my best attempt to
            begin with stronger examples and work my way down to the weakest in
            the 25 coin roll, kind of a progression set. If you are going to
            figure this one out, the more you see, the better your chances.
            Cheers,
            John
            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
            <mdia1@...> wrote:
            >
            > The fact that we're dealing with several different die pairs is of
            > uncertain significance. But I just wanted a better idea of what
            I'm
            > dealing with. You can send along the sample of 25 and I'll see
            what
            > kind of headway I can make.
            >
            > Thanks.
            >
            > Mike
            >
            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
            > <no_reply@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Mike,
            > > From this $250 mint bag, I would say 3 different die pairs. Of
            the
            > > 250, 56 had the flattening, about 80 had the same small die chips
            > > around Van Burens chin and the rest had no discernable PUPs. All
            of
            > > the edges on the entire bag seem to have been from the same set
            of
            > > edge dies or at least no defining characteristics on the edges.
            > >
            > > I have been searching dimes all day today, looking for some of
            > those
            > > nice 2007P shattered dies...no luck yet, but I always find a few
            > old
            > > silver dimes and other errors to save. Cherrypicking bank rolls
            and
            > > boxes gives me a mission anyway, I have not been able to drive
            for
            > > months and have been mostly homebound.
            > >
            > > Let me know if you want to take a look at 25 examples of various
            > > strengths and I'll get it in the mail by Tuesday.
            > >
            > > John
            >
          • portpere
            Mike, Hopefully you already have that roll in hand. I found an eBay listing for one of these. The seller also has no idea what happened to the coin, but it is
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 16, 2008
              Mike,
              Hopefully you already have that roll in hand. I found an eBay listing
              for one of these. The seller also has no idea what happened to the
              coin, but it is the same as the ones I have. Mine came from a $250 US
              Mint bag and he found his in a bank roll from MS. I'm feeling more
              and more that this is a single die pair with some major die damage
              because I cannot see how post strike damage be so consistant and in
              the exact same area on all of these coins? I remain quite interested
              in what you come up with.
              John

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
              <no_reply@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ok Mike,
              > Will get that out today. Just to let you know, I have counted the
              56
              > flattened examples as a specific die pair. They have no other PUPS
              > which match the others. Out of those, I will make my best attempt
              to
              > begin with stronger examples and work my way down to the weakest in
              > the 25 coin roll, kind of a progression set. If you are going to
              > figure this one out, the more you see, the better your chances.
              > Cheers,
              > John
              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
              > <mdia1@> wrote:
              > >
              > > The fact that we're dealing with several different die pairs is
              of
              > > uncertain significance. But I just wanted a better idea of what
              > I'm
              > > dealing with. You can send along the sample of 25 and I'll see
              > what
              > > kind of headway I can make.
              > >
              > > Thanks.
              > >
              > > Mike
              > >
              > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
              > > <no_reply@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Mike,
              > > > From this $250 mint bag, I would say 3 different die pairs. Of
              > the
              > > > 250, 56 had the flattening, about 80 had the same small die
              chips
              > > > around Van Burens chin and the rest had no discernable PUPs.
              All
              > of
              > > > the edges on the entire bag seem to have been from the same set
              > of
              > > > edge dies or at least no defining characteristics on the edges.
              > > >
              > > > I have been searching dimes all day today, looking for some of
              > > those
              > > > nice 2007P shattered dies...no luck yet, but I always find a
              few
              > > old
              > > > silver dimes and other errors to save. Cherrypicking bank rolls
              > and
              > > > boxes gives me a mission anyway, I have not been able to drive
              > for
              > > > months and have been mostly homebound.
              > > >
              > > > Let me know if you want to take a look at 25 examples of
              various
              > > > strengths and I'll get it in the mail by Tuesday.
              > > >
              > > > John
              > >
              >
            • Mike Diamond
              Not here yet. And the snow was so bad today that the mail truck could t make it up the hill.
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 16, 2008
                Not here yet. And the snow was so bad today that the mail truck
                could't make it up the hill.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
                <no_reply@...> wrote:
                >
                > Mike,
                > Hopefully you already have that roll in hand. I found an eBay listing
                > for one of these. The seller also has no idea what happened to the
                > coin, but it is the same as the ones I have. Mine came from a $250 US
                > Mint bag and he found his in a bank roll from MS. I'm feeling more
                > and more that this is a single die pair with some major die damage
                > because I cannot see how post strike damage be so consistant and in
                > the exact same area on all of these coins? I remain quite interested
                > in what you come up with.
                > John
                >
              • portpere
                Global warming???, you guys are having another Ice Age up there! Things are tough all over...I had to wear my thermal shorts and T shirt yesterday, it was a
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 17, 2008
                  Global warming???, you guys are having another Ice Age up there!
                  Things are tough all over...I had to wear my "thermal" shorts and T
                  shirt yesterday, it was a chilly 74 degrees here. BRRRRR!!! Good luck
                  digging out. It's gotta be a great incentive to go to the FUN show in
                  a few weeks. Orlando anyone?
                  John

                  -- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                  <mdia1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Not here yet. And the snow was so bad today that the mail truck
                  > could't make it up the hill.
                  >
                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
                  > <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Mike,
                  > > Hopefully you already have that roll in hand. I found an eBay
                  listing
                  > > for one of these. The seller also has no idea what happened to
                  the
                  > > coin, but it is the same as the ones I have. Mine came from a
                  $250 US
                  > > Mint bag and he found his in a bank roll from MS. I'm feeling
                  more
                  > > and more that this is a single die pair with some major die
                  damage
                  > > because I cannot see how post strike damage be so consistant and
                  in
                  > > the exact same area on all of these coins? I remain quite
                  interested
                  > > in what you come up with.
                  > > John
                  > >
                  >
                • Mike Diamond
                  I have them now and I hope to get to them early next week. ... listing ... US ... interested ... PUPS ... in ... Diamond ... what ... Of ... set ... edges.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 18, 2008
                    I have them now and I hope to get to them early next week.

                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
                    <no_reply@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Mike,
                    > Hopefully you already have that roll in hand. I found an eBay
                    listing
                    > for one of these. The seller also has no idea what happened to the
                    > coin, but it is the same as the ones I have. Mine came from a $250
                    US
                    > Mint bag and he found his in a bank roll from MS. I'm feeling more
                    > and more that this is a single die pair with some major die damage
                    > because I cannot see how post strike damage be so consistant and in
                    > the exact same area on all of these coins? I remain quite
                    interested
                    > in what you come up with.
                    > John
                    >
                    > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
                    > <no_reply@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Ok Mike,
                    > > Will get that out today. Just to let you know, I have counted the
                    > 56
                    > > flattened examples as a specific die pair. They have no other
                    PUPS
                    > > which match the others. Out of those, I will make my best attempt
                    > to
                    > > begin with stronger examples and work my way down to the weakest
                    in
                    > > the 25 coin roll, kind of a progression set. If you are going to
                    > > figure this one out, the more you see, the better your chances.
                    > > Cheers,
                    > > John
                    > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                    Diamond"
                    > > <mdia1@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > The fact that we're dealing with several different die pairs is
                    > of
                    > > > uncertain significance. But I just wanted a better idea of
                    what
                    > > I'm
                    > > > dealing with. You can send along the sample of 25 and I'll see
                    > > what
                    > > > kind of headway I can make.
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks.
                    > > >
                    > > > Mike
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
                    > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Mike,
                    > > > > From this $250 mint bag, I would say 3 different die pairs.
                    Of
                    > > the
                    > > > > 250, 56 had the flattening, about 80 had the same small die
                    > chips
                    > > > > around Van Burens chin and the rest had no discernable PUPs.
                    > All
                    > > of
                    > > > > the edges on the entire bag seem to have been from the same
                    set
                    > > of
                    > > > > edge dies or at least no defining characteristics on the
                    edges.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I have been searching dimes all day today, looking for some
                    of
                    > > > those
                    > > > > nice 2007P shattered dies...no luck yet, but I always find a
                    > few
                    > > > old
                    > > > > silver dimes and other errors to save. Cherrypicking bank
                    rolls
                    > > and
                    > > > > boxes gives me a mission anyway, I have not been able to
                    drive
                    > > for
                    > > > > months and have been mostly homebound.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Let me know if you want to take a look at 25 examples of
                    > various
                    > > > > strengths and I'll get it in the mail by Tuesday.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > John
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • portpere
                    As always, no need to rush. Glad the Postman made it up the hill. I have high hopes that the variety of strengths and number of samples will help you come to a
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 18, 2008
                      As always, no need to rush. Glad the Postman made it up the hill. I
                      have high hopes that the variety of strengths and number of samples
                      will help you come to a clear conclusion. Then, I suppose we will be
                      able to attribute them and apply the same to the slightly flattened
                      Monroe's we found many months ago. I think that you still have one of
                      those to compare.
                      John

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                      <mdia1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I have them now and I hope to get to them early next week.
                      >
                      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
                      > <no_reply@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Mike,
                      > > Hopefully you already have that roll in hand. I found an eBay
                      > listing
                      > > for one of these. The seller also has no idea what happened to
                      the
                      > > coin, but it is the same as the ones I have. Mine came from a
                      $250
                      > US
                      > > Mint bag and he found his in a bank roll from MS. I'm feeling
                      more
                      > > and more that this is a single die pair with some major die
                      damage
                      > > because I cannot see how post strike damage be so consistant and
                      in
                      > > the exact same area on all of these coins? I remain quite
                      > interested
                      > > in what you come up with.
                      > > John
                      > >
                      > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
                      > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Ok Mike,
                      > > > Will get that out today. Just to let you know, I have counted
                      the
                      > > 56
                      > > > flattened examples as a specific die pair. They have no other
                      > PUPS
                      > > > which match the others. Out of those, I will make my best
                      attempt
                      > > to
                      > > > begin with stronger examples and work my way down to the
                      weakest
                      > in
                      > > > the 25 coin roll, kind of a progression set. If you are going
                      to
                      > > > figure this one out, the more you see, the better your chances.
                      > > > Cheers,
                      > > > John
                      > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
                      > Diamond"
                      > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The fact that we're dealing with several different die pairs
                      is
                      > > of
                      > > > > uncertain significance. But I just wanted a better idea of
                      > what
                      > > > I'm
                      > > > > dealing with. You can send along the sample of 25 and I'll
                      see
                      > > > what
                      > > > > kind of headway I can make.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thanks.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Mike
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
                      > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Mike,
                      > > > > > From this $250 mint bag, I would say 3 different die pairs.
                      > Of
                      > > > the
                      > > > > > 250, 56 had the flattening, about 80 had the same small die
                      > > chips
                      > > > > > around Van Burens chin and the rest had no discernable
                      PUPs.
                      > > All
                      > > > of
                      > > > > > the edges on the entire bag seem to have been from the same
                      > set
                      > > > of
                      > > > > > edge dies or at least no defining characteristics on the
                      > edges.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I have been searching dimes all day today, looking for some
                      > of
                      > > > > those
                      > > > > > nice 2007P shattered dies...no luck yet, but I always find
                      a
                      > > few
                      > > > > old
                      > > > > > silver dimes and other errors to save. Cherrypicking bank
                      > rolls
                      > > > and
                      > > > > > boxes gives me a mission anyway, I have not been able to
                      > drive
                      > > > for
                      > > > > > months and have been mostly homebound.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Let me know if you want to take a look at 25 examples of
                      > > various
                      > > > > > strengths and I'll get it in the mail by Tuesday.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > John
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Mike Diamond
                      Hi John. I ve finished examining your Van Buren dollars and I ll be sticking to the same verdict -- post-strike damage. The appearance is inconsistent with a
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 25, 2008
                        Hi John. I've finished examining your Van Buren dollars and I'll be
                        sticking to the same verdict -- post-strike damage. The appearance is
                        inconsistent with a low-pressure strike or a filled die error. On the
                        affected design elements one variously sees the following:

                        1. Dimpling around the flattened elements. It does not look like the
                        incuse die deterioration one sometimes sees on state quarters. It DOES
                        look like the dimpling I've seen on undoubted examples of coins with
                        design elements that were crushed.

                        2. Subtle vertical lipping around the margin of many flattened letters
                        and numbers. This is something never seen in genuine errors but is
                        something I've noted in coins with crushed letters and numbers.

                        3. A brightly burnished/polished appearance to many affected elements.
                        This is not what you'd expect in a genuine error.

                        4. On some of the highly reflective elements, the surface appears
                        unusually rounded, which I can only attribute to post-strike alteration.

                        5. Odd textures on many affected elements, such as faint pockmarks
                        (percussion marks), faint striations, and assorted other patterns.
                        They don't look like typical contact marks.

                        On the worst-affected specimen I've seen (at a coin show), the coin was
                        seriously underweight, indicating loss of surface metal.

                        I don't know where, when, or by what these coins are being damaged, but
                        damage it is.

                        I hope I didn't spoil your Christmas. It was a quiet day for me, so I
                        figured I'd attend to your sample. I'll get them back to you next week.

                        Mike

                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
                        <no_reply@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > As always, no need to rush. Glad the Postman made it up the hill. I
                        > have high hopes that the variety of strengths and number of samples
                        > will help you come to a clear conclusion. Then, I suppose we will be
                        > able to attribute them and apply the same to the slightly flattened
                        > Monroe's we found many months ago. I think that you still have one of
                        > those to compare.
                        > John
                      • portpere
                        Thank you Mike, I m never disappointed with an honest assessment. I looked thru a couple of John Adams D mint rolls this week and found a decent amount with
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 26, 2008
                          Thank you Mike,

                          I'm never disappointed with an honest assessment. I looked thru a
                          couple of John Adams D mint rolls this week and found a decent amount
                          with these "pockmarks", striations and other marks on them. Lots of
                          similarities, but there was no flattening on any examples. These
                          marks were located on the fields as well as many design elements.
                          There must be some equipment they use at the mint that is doing this
                          to the coins, it is fairly consistent and seems to only show up on
                          Denver issues. A small mystery that I no longer care to spend time
                          upon. Time to focus on the 2009 Lincoln cents...4 different
                          designs...it's inevitable they will screw some of them up!!!

                          Thanks for your efforts and have a safe, healthy and Happy New Year,

                          John

                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                          <mdia1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi John. I've finished examining your Van Buren dollars and I'll
                          be
                          > sticking to the same verdict -- post-strike damage. The appearance
                          is
                          > inconsistent with a low-pressure strike or a filled die error. On
                          the
                          > affected design elements one variously sees the following:
                          >
                          > 1. Dimpling around the flattened elements. It does not look like
                          the
                          > incuse die deterioration one sometimes sees on state quarters. It
                          DOES
                          > look like the dimpling I've seen on undoubted examples of coins
                          with
                          > design elements that were crushed.
                          >
                          > 2. Subtle vertical lipping around the margin of many flattened
                          letters
                          > and numbers. This is something never seen in genuine errors but is
                          > something I've noted in coins with crushed letters and numbers.
                          >
                          > 3. A brightly burnished/polished appearance to many affected
                          elements.
                          > This is not what you'd expect in a genuine error.
                          >
                          > 4. On some of the highly reflective elements, the surface appears
                          > unusually rounded, which I can only attribute to post-strike
                          alteration.
                          >
                          > 5. Odd textures on many affected elements, such as faint pockmarks
                          > (percussion marks), faint striations, and assorted other patterns.
                          > They don't look like typical contact marks.
                          >
                          > On the worst-affected specimen I've seen (at a coin show), the coin
                          was
                          > seriously underweight, indicating loss of surface metal.
                          >
                          > I don't know where, when, or by what these coins are being damaged,
                          but
                          > damage it is.
                          >
                          > I hope I didn't spoil your Christmas. It was a quiet day for me,
                          so I
                          > figured I'd attend to your sample. I'll get them back to you next
                          week.
                          >
                          > Mike
                          >
                          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, portpere
                          > <no_reply@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > As always, no need to rush. Glad the Postman made it up the hill.
                          I
                          > > have high hopes that the variety of strengths and number of
                          samples
                          > > will help you come to a clear conclusion. Then, I suppose we will
                          be
                          > > able to attribute them and apply the same to the slightly
                          flattened
                          > > Monroe's we found many months ago. I think that you still have
                          one of
                          > > those to compare.
                          > > John
                          >
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