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I have no idea what I just bought,

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  • Marc
    Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out capped die something to me. The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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      Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
      capped die something to me.

      The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
      stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
      those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or tripled
      above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
      at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin cap
      is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
      the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could be
      responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
      letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight design.

      As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck thru
      capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
      the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
      displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
      stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
      such an error, other than dropped letter types.

      My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.

      My 2 cents worth....
    • Mike Diamond
      I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in its own right).
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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        I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
        die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
        its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
        quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does show
        a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
        strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
        never complete separation as there is with this quarter.

        The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
        incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
        could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-through
        appearance in the surrounding area.

        The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing in
        the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the extra
        letters were present in the die face.

        I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
        helpful.

        I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
        shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds additional
        support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
        accompanied by other die damage.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Marc"
        <numismistake@...> wrote:
        >
        > Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
        > capped die something to me.
        >
        > The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
        > stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
        > those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or
        tripled
        > above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
        > at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin
        cap
        > is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
        > the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could
        be
        > responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
        > letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight
        design.
        >
        > As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck
        thru
        > capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
        > the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
        > displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
        > stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
        > such an error, other than dropped letter types.
        >
        > My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.
        >
        > My 2 cents worth....
        >
      • jeff ylitalo
        If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?   While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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          If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?
           
          While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be nice.
           
          Thanks.

        • Mike Diamond
          There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong enough, a positive
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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            There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
            shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
            enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
            opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

            The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
            counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
            could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
            just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
            and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
            the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
            struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
            unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
            counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
            1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
            the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
            001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
            struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
            the other counterclashes.

            There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
            hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
            <jylitalo@...> wrote:
            >
            > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
            occurs?
            >  
            > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
            also be nice.
            >  
            > Thanks.
            >
          • jeff ylitalo
            I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.   Thanks for this current and
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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              I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.
               
              Thanks for this current and updated digest for 'counterclash'.
               
              On Tue, 9/9/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
              From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
              Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought
              To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 5:40 PM

              There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
              shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
              enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
              opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

              The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
              counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
              could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
              just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
              and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
              the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
              struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
              unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
              counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
              1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
              the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
              001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
              struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
              the other counterclashes.

              There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
              hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

              --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff ylitalo
              <jylitalo@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
              occurs?
              >  
              > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
              also be nice.
              >  
              > Thanks.
              >


            • Mike Diamond
              Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different spots. It measures a
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a
                coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                authenticity.

                I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                is found. I'd like to see that too.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                <mdia1@...> wrote:
                >
                > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                show
                > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                >
                > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                through
                > appearance in the surrounding area.
                >
                > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                in
                > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                extra
                > letters were present in the die face.
                >
                > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                > helpful.
                >
                > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                additional
                > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                > accompanied by other die damage.
              • Mike Diamond
                With respect to an official announcement in print media, I ve decided to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more detailed follow-up in
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                  With respect to an official announcement in print media, I've decided
                  to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more
                  detailed follow-up in Errorscope later.

                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                  <mdia1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces
                  a
                  > coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                  > spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                  > authenticity.
                  >
                  > I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                  > is found. I'd like to see that too.
                  >
                  > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                  > <mdia1@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several
                  capped
                  > > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious
                  in
                  > > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this
                  Delaware
                  > > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                  > show
                  > > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                  > > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones,
                  there's
                  > > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                  > >
                  > > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                  > > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                  > > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                  > through
                  > > appearance in the surrounding area.
                  > >
                  > > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                  > in
                  > > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                  > extra
                  > > letters were present in the die face.
                  > >
                  > > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's
                  always
                  > > helpful.
                  > >
                  > > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                  > > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                  > additional
                  > > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                  > > accompanied by other die damage.
                  >
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