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Re: I have no idea what I just bought,

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  • Mike Diamond
    I would think it s possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At any rate, I can t
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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      I would think it's possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls
      and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At
      any rate, I can't believe this is the only one to have gotten out.
      Maybe others have been misidentified as double strikes or even
      counterfeits. Maybe some have simply been thrown into the "suspense
      account", since not many collectors would realize what they have.

      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, innff@... wrote:
      >
      > Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I
      would
      > think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since
      the time
      > frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is
      something not
      > easily missed.
    • Marc
      Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out capped die something to me. The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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        Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
        capped die something to me.

        The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
        stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
        those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or tripled
        above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
        at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin cap
        is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
        the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could be
        responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
        letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight design.

        As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck thru
        capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
        the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
        displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
        stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
        such an error, other than dropped letter types.

        My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.

        My 2 cents worth....
      • Mike Diamond
        I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in its own right).
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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          I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
          die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
          its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
          quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does show
          a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
          strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
          never complete separation as there is with this quarter.

          The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
          incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
          could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-through
          appearance in the surrounding area.

          The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing in
          the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the extra
          letters were present in the die face.

          I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
          helpful.

          I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
          shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds additional
          support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
          accompanied by other die damage.

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Marc"
          <numismistake@...> wrote:
          >
          > Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
          > capped die something to me.
          >
          > The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
          > stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
          > those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or
          tripled
          > above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
          > at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin
          cap
          > is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
          > the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could
          be
          > responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
          > letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight
          design.
          >
          > As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck
          thru
          > capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
          > the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
          > displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
          > stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
          > such an error, other than dropped letter types.
          >
          > My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.
          >
          > My 2 cents worth....
          >
        • jeff ylitalo
          If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?   While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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            If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?
             
            While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be nice.
             
            Thanks.

          • Mike Diamond
            There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong enough, a positive
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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              There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
              shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
              enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
              opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

              The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
              counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
              could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
              just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
              and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
              the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
              struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
              unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
              counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
              1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
              the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
              001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
              struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
              the other counterclashes.

              There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
              hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
              <jylitalo@...> wrote:
              >
              > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
              occurs?
              >  
              > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
              also be nice.
              >  
              > Thanks.
              >
            • jeff ylitalo
              I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.   Thanks for this current and
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.
                 
                Thanks for this current and updated digest for 'counterclash'.
                 
                On Tue, 9/9/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought
                To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 5:40 PM

                There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                the other counterclashes.

                There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff ylitalo
                <jylitalo@.. .> wrote:
                >
                > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                occurs?
                >  
                > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                also be nice.
                >  
                > Thanks.
                >


              • Mike Diamond
                Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different spots. It measures a
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                  Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a
                  coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                  spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                  authenticity.

                  I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                  is found. I'd like to see that too.

                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                  <mdia1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                  > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                  > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                  > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                  show
                  > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                  > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                  > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                  >
                  > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                  > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                  > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                  through
                  > appearance in the surrounding area.
                  >
                  > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                  in
                  > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                  extra
                  > letters were present in the die face.
                  >
                  > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                  > helpful.
                  >
                  > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                  > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                  additional
                  > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                  > accompanied by other die damage.
                • Mike Diamond
                  With respect to an official announcement in print media, I ve decided to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more detailed follow-up in
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                    With respect to an official announcement in print media, I've decided
                    to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more
                    detailed follow-up in Errorscope later.

                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                    <mdia1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces
                    a
                    > coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                    > spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                    > authenticity.
                    >
                    > I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                    > is found. I'd like to see that too.
                    >
                    > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                    > <mdia1@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several
                    capped
                    > > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious
                    in
                    > > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this
                    Delaware
                    > > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                    > show
                    > > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                    > > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones,
                    there's
                    > > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                    > >
                    > > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                    > > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                    > > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                    > through
                    > > appearance in the surrounding area.
                    > >
                    > > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                    > in
                    > > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                    > extra
                    > > letters were present in the die face.
                    > >
                    > > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's
                    always
                    > > helpful.
                    > >
                    > > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                    > > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                    > additional
                    > > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                    > > accompanied by other die damage.
                    >
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