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Re: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought,

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  • innff@aol.com
    Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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      Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is something not easily missed.
       
      BJ
       
      In a message dated 9/9/2008 11:53:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mdia1@... writes:

      It's a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks
      can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I'd LOVE to
      see an early die state specimen. The clarity would be mind-boggling.

      --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Diamond"
      <mdia1@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
      > <jylitalo@> wrote:
      > >
      > > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
      > > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of
      DDD.
      >
      > Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
      > that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
      > around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
      > areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.
      >
      >
      > > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
      > > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
      > > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
      > help
      > > to eliminate it as a fake.
      > >
      > > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die
      started
      > to
      > > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.
      >
      > Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of
      the
      > die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.
      >
      > > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
      > > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never
      saw
      > a
      > > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
      > > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
      > > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state
      quarters.
      > I
      > > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters
      which
      > > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
      > > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
      > >
      > > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!
      >
      > I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
      > can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
      > counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
      >




    • Mike Diamond
      I would think it s possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At any rate, I can t
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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        I would think it's possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls
        and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At
        any rate, I can't believe this is the only one to have gotten out.
        Maybe others have been misidentified as double strikes or even
        counterfeits. Maybe some have simply been thrown into the "suspense
        account", since not many collectors would realize what they have.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, innff@... wrote:
        >
        > Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I
        would
        > think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since
        the time
        > frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is
        something not
        > easily missed.
      • Marc
        Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out capped die something to me. The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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          Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
          capped die something to me.

          The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
          stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
          those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or tripled
          above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
          at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin cap
          is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
          the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could be
          responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
          letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight design.

          As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck thru
          capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
          the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
          displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
          stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
          such an error, other than dropped letter types.

          My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.

          My 2 cents worth....
        • Mike Diamond
          I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in its own right).
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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            I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
            die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
            its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
            quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does show
            a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
            strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
            never complete separation as there is with this quarter.

            The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
            incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
            could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-through
            appearance in the surrounding area.

            The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing in
            the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the extra
            letters were present in the die face.

            I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
            helpful.

            I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
            shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds additional
            support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
            accompanied by other die damage.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Marc"
            <numismistake@...> wrote:
            >
            > Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
            > capped die something to me.
            >
            > The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
            > stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
            > those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or
            tripled
            > above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
            > at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin
            cap
            > is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
            > the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could
            be
            > responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
            > letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight
            design.
            >
            > As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck
            thru
            > capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
            > the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
            > displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
            > stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
            > such an error, other than dropped letter types.
            >
            > My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.
            >
            > My 2 cents worth....
            >
          • jeff ylitalo
            If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?   While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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              If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?
               
              While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be nice.
               
              Thanks.

            • Mike Diamond
              There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong enough, a positive
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                the other counterclashes.

                There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
                <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                >
                > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                occurs?
                >  
                > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                also be nice.
                >  
                > Thanks.
                >
              • jeff ylitalo
                I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.   Thanks for this current and
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                  I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.
                   
                  Thanks for this current and updated digest for 'counterclash'.
                   
                  On Tue, 9/9/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                  From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                  Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought
                  To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 5:40 PM

                  There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                  shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                  enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                  opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                  The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                  counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                  could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                  just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                  and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                  the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                  struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                  unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                  counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                  1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                  the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                  001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                  struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                  the other counterclashes.

                  There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                  hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                  --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff ylitalo
                  <jylitalo@.. .> wrote:
                  >
                  > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                  occurs?
                  >  
                  > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                  also be nice.
                  >  
                  > Thanks.
                  >


                • Mike Diamond
                  Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different spots. It measures a
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                    Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a
                    coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                    spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                    authenticity.

                    I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                    is found. I'd like to see that too.

                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                    <mdia1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                    > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                    > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                    > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                    show
                    > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                    > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                    > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                    >
                    > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                    > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                    > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                    through
                    > appearance in the surrounding area.
                    >
                    > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                    in
                    > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                    extra
                    > letters were present in the die face.
                    >
                    > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                    > helpful.
                    >
                    > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                    > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                    additional
                    > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                    > accompanied by other die damage.
                  • Mike Diamond
                    With respect to an official announcement in print media, I ve decided to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more detailed follow-up in
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                      With respect to an official announcement in print media, I've decided
                      to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more
                      detailed follow-up in Errorscope later.

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                      <mdia1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces
                      a
                      > coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                      > spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                      > authenticity.
                      >
                      > I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                      > is found. I'd like to see that too.
                      >
                      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                      > <mdia1@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several
                      capped
                      > > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious
                      in
                      > > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this
                      Delaware
                      > > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                      > show
                      > > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                      > > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones,
                      there's
                      > > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                      > >
                      > > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                      > > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                      > > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                      > through
                      > > appearance in the surrounding area.
                      > >
                      > > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                      > in
                      > > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                      > extra
                      > > letters were present in the die face.
                      > >
                      > > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's
                      always
                      > > helpful.
                      > >
                      > > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                      > > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                      > additional
                      > > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                      > > accompanied by other die damage.
                      >
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