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Re: I have no idea what I just bought,

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  • Mike Diamond
    It s a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I d LOVE to see an early die
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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      It's a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks
      can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I'd LOVE to
      see an early die state specimen. The clarity would be mind-boggling.

      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
      <mdia1@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
      > <jylitalo@> wrote:
      > >
      > > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
      > > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of
      DDD.
      >
      > Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
      > that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
      > around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
      > areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.
      >
      >
      > > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
      > > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
      > > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
      > help
      > > to eliminate it as a fake.
      > >
      > > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die
      started
      > to
      > > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.
      >
      > Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of
      the
      > die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.
      >
      > > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
      > > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never
      saw
      > a
      > > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
      > > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
      > > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state
      quarters.
      > I
      > > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters
      which
      > > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
      > > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
      > >
      > > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!
      >
      > I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
      > can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
      > counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
      >
    • innff@aol.com
      Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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        Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is something not easily missed.
         
        BJ
         
        In a message dated 9/9/2008 11:53:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mdia1@... writes:

        It's a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks
        can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I'd LOVE to
        see an early die state specimen. The clarity would be mind-boggling.

        --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Diamond"
        <mdia1@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
        > <jylitalo@> wrote:
        > >
        > > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
        > > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of
        DDD.
        >
        > Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
        > that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
        > around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
        > areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.
        >
        >
        > > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
        > > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
        > > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
        > help
        > > to eliminate it as a fake.
        > >
        > > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die
        started
        > to
        > > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.
        >
        > Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of
        the
        > die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.
        >
        > > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
        > > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never
        saw
        > a
        > > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
        > > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
        > > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state
        quarters.
        > I
        > > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters
        which
        > > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
        > > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
        > >
        > > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!
        >
        > I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
        > can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
        > counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
        >




      • Mike Diamond
        I would think it s possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At any rate, I can t
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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          I would think it's possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls
          and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At
          any rate, I can't believe this is the only one to have gotten out.
          Maybe others have been misidentified as double strikes or even
          counterfeits. Maybe some have simply been thrown into the "suspense
          account", since not many collectors would realize what they have.

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, innff@... wrote:
          >
          > Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I
          would
          > think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since
          the time
          > frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is
          something not
          > easily missed.
        • Marc
          Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out capped die something to me. The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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            Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
            capped die something to me.

            The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
            stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
            those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or tripled
            above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
            at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin cap
            is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
            the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could be
            responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
            letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight design.

            As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck thru
            capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
            the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
            displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
            stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
            such an error, other than dropped letter types.

            My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.

            My 2 cents worth....
          • Mike Diamond
            I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in its own right).
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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              I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
              die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
              its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
              quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does show
              a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
              strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
              never complete separation as there is with this quarter.

              The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
              incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
              could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-through
              appearance in the surrounding area.

              The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing in
              the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the extra
              letters were present in the die face.

              I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
              helpful.

              I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
              shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds additional
              support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
              accompanied by other die damage.

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Marc"
              <numismistake@...> wrote:
              >
              > Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
              > capped die something to me.
              >
              > The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
              > stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
              > those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or
              tripled
              > above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
              > at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin
              cap
              > is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
              > the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could
              be
              > responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
              > letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight
              design.
              >
              > As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck
              thru
              > capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
              > the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
              > displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
              > stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
              > such an error, other than dropped letter types.
              >
              > My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.
              >
              > My 2 cents worth....
              >
            • jeff ylitalo
              If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?   While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?
                 
                While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be nice.
                 
                Thanks.

              • Mike Diamond
                There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong enough, a positive
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                  There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                  shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                  enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                  opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                  The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                  counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                  could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                  just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                  and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                  the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                  struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                  unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                  counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                  1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                  the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                  001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                  struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                  the other counterclashes.

                  There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                  hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
                  <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                  occurs?
                  >  
                  > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                  also be nice.
                  >  
                  > Thanks.
                  >
                • jeff ylitalo
                  I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.   Thanks for this current and
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                    I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.
                     
                    Thanks for this current and updated digest for 'counterclash'.
                     
                    On Tue, 9/9/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                    From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                    Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought
                    To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 5:40 PM

                    There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                    shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                    enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                    opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                    The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                    counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                    could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                    just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                    and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                    the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                    struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                    unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                    counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                    1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                    the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                    001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                    struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                    the other counterclashes.

                    There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                    hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                    --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff ylitalo
                    <jylitalo@.. .> wrote:
                    >
                    > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                    occurs?
                    >  
                    > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                    also be nice.
                    >  
                    > Thanks.
                    >


                  • Mike Diamond
                    Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different spots. It measures a
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                      Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a
                      coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                      spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                      authenticity.

                      I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                      is found. I'd like to see that too.

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                      <mdia1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                      > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                      > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                      > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                      show
                      > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                      > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                      > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                      >
                      > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                      > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                      > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                      through
                      > appearance in the surrounding area.
                      >
                      > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                      in
                      > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                      extra
                      > letters were present in the die face.
                      >
                      > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                      > helpful.
                      >
                      > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                      > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                      additional
                      > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                      > accompanied by other die damage.
                    • Mike Diamond
                      With respect to an official announcement in print media, I ve decided to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more detailed follow-up in
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                        With respect to an official announcement in print media, I've decided
                        to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more
                        detailed follow-up in Errorscope later.

                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                        <mdia1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces
                        a
                        > coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                        > spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                        > authenticity.
                        >
                        > I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                        > is found. I'd like to see that too.
                        >
                        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                        > <mdia1@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several
                        capped
                        > > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious
                        in
                        > > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this
                        Delaware
                        > > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                        > show
                        > > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                        > > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones,
                        there's
                        > > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                        > >
                        > > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                        > > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                        > > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                        > through
                        > > appearance in the surrounding area.
                        > >
                        > > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                        > in
                        > > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                        > extra
                        > > letters were present in the die face.
                        > >
                        > > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's
                        always
                        > > helpful.
                        > >
                        > > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                        > > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                        > additional
                        > > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                        > > accompanied by other die damage.
                        >
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