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Re: I have no idea what I just bought,

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  • Mike Diamond
    ... Yes, it has that incuse ripply form of die deterioration doubling that we re both familiar with on state quarters. It s prominent around the date 1999
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
      <jylitalo@...> wrote:
      >
      > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
      > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD.

      Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
      that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
      around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
      areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.


      > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
      > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
      > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
      help
      > to eliminate it as a fake.
      >
      > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die started
      to
      > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.

      Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of the
      die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.

      > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
      > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never saw
      a
      > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
      > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
      > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state quarters.
      I
      > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters which
      > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
      > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
      >
      > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!

      I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
      can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
      counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
    • Mike Diamond
      It s a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I d LOVE to see an early die
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
        It's a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks
        can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I'd LOVE to
        see an early die state specimen. The clarity would be mind-boggling.

        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
        <mdia1@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
        > <jylitalo@> wrote:
        > >
        > > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
        > > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of
        DDD.
        >
        > Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
        > that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
        > around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
        > areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.
        >
        >
        > > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
        > > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
        > > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
        > help
        > > to eliminate it as a fake.
        > >
        > > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die
        started
        > to
        > > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.
        >
        > Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of
        the
        > die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.
        >
        > > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
        > > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never
        saw
        > a
        > > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
        > > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
        > > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state
        quarters.
        > I
        > > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters
        which
        > > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
        > > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
        > >
        > > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!
        >
        > I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
        > can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
        > counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
        >
      • innff@aol.com
        Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
          Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is something not easily missed.
           
          BJ
           
          In a message dated 9/9/2008 11:53:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mdia1@... writes:

          It's a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks
          can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I'd LOVE to
          see an early die state specimen. The clarity would be mind-boggling.

          --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Diamond"
          <mdia1@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
          > <jylitalo@> wrote:
          > >
          > > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
          > > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of
          DDD.
          >
          > Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
          > that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
          > around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
          > areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.
          >
          >
          > > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
          > > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
          > > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
          > help
          > > to eliminate it as a fake.
          > >
          > > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die
          started
          > to
          > > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.
          >
          > Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of
          the
          > die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.
          >
          > > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
          > > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never
          saw
          > a
          > > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
          > > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
          > > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state
          quarters.
          > I
          > > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters
          which
          > > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
          > > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
          > >
          > > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!
          >
          > I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
          > can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
          > counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
          >




        • Mike Diamond
          I would think it s possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At any rate, I can t
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
            I would think it's possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls
            and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At
            any rate, I can't believe this is the only one to have gotten out.
            Maybe others have been misidentified as double strikes or even
            counterfeits. Maybe some have simply been thrown into the "suspense
            account", since not many collectors would realize what they have.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, innff@... wrote:
            >
            > Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I
            would
            > think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since
            the time
            > frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is
            something not
            > easily missed.
          • Marc
            Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out capped die something to me. The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
              Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
              capped die something to me.

              The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
              stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
              those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or tripled
              above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
              at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin cap
              is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
              the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could be
              responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
              letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight design.

              As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck thru
              capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
              the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
              displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
              stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
              such an error, other than dropped letter types.

              My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.

              My 2 cents worth....
            • Mike Diamond
              I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in its own right).
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
                I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does show
                a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                never complete separation as there is with this quarter.

                The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-through
                appearance in the surrounding area.

                The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing in
                the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the extra
                letters were present in the die face.

                I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                helpful.

                I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds additional
                support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                accompanied by other die damage.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Marc"
                <numismistake@...> wrote:
                >
                > Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
                > capped die something to me.
                >
                > The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                > stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
                > those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or
                tripled
                > above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
                > at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin
                cap
                > is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
                > the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could
                be
                > responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
                > letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight
                design.
                >
                > As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck
                thru
                > capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
                > the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
                > displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
                > stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
                > such an error, other than dropped letter types.
                >
                > My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.
                >
                > My 2 cents worth....
                >
              • jeff ylitalo
                If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?   While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
                  If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?
                   
                  While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be nice.
                   
                  Thanks.

                • Mike Diamond
                  There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong enough, a positive
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
                    There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                    shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                    enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                    opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                    The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                    counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                    could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                    just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                    and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                    the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                    struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                    unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                    counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                    1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                    the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                    001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                    struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                    the other counterclashes.

                    There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                    hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
                    <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                    occurs?
                    >  
                    > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                    also be nice.
                    >  
                    > Thanks.
                    >
                  • jeff ylitalo
                    I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.   Thanks for this current and
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
                      I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.
                       
                      Thanks for this current and updated digest for 'counterclash'.
                       
                      On Tue, 9/9/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                      From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                      Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought
                      To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 5:40 PM

                      There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                      shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                      enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                      opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                      The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                      counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                      could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                      just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                      and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                      the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                      struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                      unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                      counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                      1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                      the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                      001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                      struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                      the other counterclashes.

                      There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                      hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                      --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff ylitalo
                      <jylitalo@.. .> wrote:
                      >
                      > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                      occurs?
                      >  
                      > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                      also be nice.
                      >  
                      > Thanks.
                      >


                    • Mike Diamond
                      Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different spots. It measures a
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
                        Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a
                        coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                        spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                        authenticity.

                        I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                        is found. I'd like to see that too.

                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                        <mdia1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                        > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                        > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                        > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                        show
                        > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                        > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                        > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                        >
                        > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                        > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                        > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                        through
                        > appearance in the surrounding area.
                        >
                        > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                        in
                        > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                        extra
                        > letters were present in the die face.
                        >
                        > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                        > helpful.
                        >
                        > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                        > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                        additional
                        > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                        > accompanied by other die damage.
                      • Mike Diamond
                        With respect to an official announcement in print media, I ve decided to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more detailed follow-up in
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
                          With respect to an official announcement in print media, I've decided
                          to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more
                          detailed follow-up in Errorscope later.

                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                          <mdia1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces
                          a
                          > coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                          > spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                          > authenticity.
                          >
                          > I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                          > is found. I'd like to see that too.
                          >
                          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                          > <mdia1@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several
                          capped
                          > > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious
                          in
                          > > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this
                          Delaware
                          > > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                          > show
                          > > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                          > > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones,
                          there's
                          > > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                          > >
                          > > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                          > > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                          > > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                          > through
                          > > appearance in the surrounding area.
                          > >
                          > > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                          > in
                          > > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                          > extra
                          > > letters were present in the die face.
                          > >
                          > > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's
                          always
                          > > helpful.
                          > >
                          > > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                          > > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                          > additional
                          > > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                          > > accompanied by other die damage.
                          >
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