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Re: I have no idea what I just bought,

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  • jylitalo
    My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD. I hadn t taken it to the
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
      My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
      letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD. I
      hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
      RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
      counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would help
      to eliminate it as a fake.

      This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die started to
      deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.

      From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
      Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never saw a
      case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
      quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
      began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state quarters. I
      THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters which
      might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
      suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.

      I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!

      ,--- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
      <mdia1@...> wrote:
      >
      > I have seen fake counterclashes -- including some on state
      quarters --
      > but these bear little resemblance to the Delaware specimen. Signs
      > of authenticity include the following:
      >
      > 1. The extra letters of CAESAR RODNEY are affected by the same sort
      > of die deterioration as the normal letters.
      >
      > 2. The extra letters are confined to the field and are visible in
      the
      > tiny spaces between the normal letters.
      >
      > 3. The last two letters of RODNEY fade out as they enter a grease-
      > struck area.
      >
      > Since the counterclash shows the effects of die deterioration,
      there
      > must have been many produced. Where are they? Could they have
      > escaped notice? Could all but a few have been intercepted before
      > leaving the Mint?
      >
      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
      > <mdia1@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album.
      > >
      > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
      Diamond"
      > > <mdia1@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each
      > > letter
      > > > is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
      > > > relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
      > > > itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects
      > the
      > > > rest of the design.
      > > >
      > > > This is really exciting, as it will represent the first
      > > counterclash
      > > > on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most
      distinct
      > > > encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?
      > > >
      > > > Photos before the day is out, I promise.
      > > >
      > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
      > Diamond"
      > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what
      > > kind.
      > > > > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
      > > > > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with
      > any
      > > > form
      > > > > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows
      a
      > > late
      > > > die
      > > > > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten
      > used
      > > to
      > > > > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck
      > through
      > > a
      > > > thin
      > > > > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the
      grease-
      > > > struck
      > > > > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all
      chew
      > > it
      > > > over.
      > > > >
      > > > > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
      > > > handsomely,
      > > > > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of
      Errorland.
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
      > > Diamond"
      > > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
      > ViewItem&item=320288437359
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
      > > > > counterclash...who
      > > > > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
      > > > thinner
      > > > > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait
      > and
      > > > see
      > > > > > about that.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Wish me luck.
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Mike Diamond
      ... Yes, it has that incuse ripply form of die deterioration doubling that we re both familiar with on state quarters. It s prominent around the date 1999
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
        <jylitalo@...> wrote:
        >
        > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
        > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD.

        Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
        that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
        around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
        areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.


        > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
        > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
        > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
        help
        > to eliminate it as a fake.
        >
        > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die started
        to
        > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.

        Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of the
        die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.

        > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
        > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never saw
        a
        > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
        > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
        > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state quarters.
        I
        > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters which
        > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
        > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
        >
        > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!

        I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
        can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
        counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
      • Mike Diamond
        It s a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I d LOVE to see an early die
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
          It's a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks
          can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I'd LOVE to
          see an early die state specimen. The clarity would be mind-boggling.

          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
          <mdia1@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
          > <jylitalo@> wrote:
          > >
          > > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
          > > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of
          DDD.
          >
          > Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
          > that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
          > around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
          > areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.
          >
          >
          > > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
          > > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
          > > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
          > help
          > > to eliminate it as a fake.
          > >
          > > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die
          started
          > to
          > > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.
          >
          > Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of
          the
          > die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.
          >
          > > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
          > > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never
          saw
          > a
          > > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
          > > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
          > > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state
          quarters.
          > I
          > > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters
          which
          > > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
          > > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
          > >
          > > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!
          >
          > I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
          > can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
          > counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
          >
        • innff@aol.com
          Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
            Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is something not easily missed.
             
            BJ
             
            In a message dated 9/9/2008 11:53:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mdia1@... writes:

            It's a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks
            can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I'd LOVE to
            see an early die state specimen. The clarity would be mind-boggling.

            --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Diamond"
            <mdia1@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
            > <jylitalo@> wrote:
            > >
            > > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
            > > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of
            DDD.
            >
            > Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
            > that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
            > around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
            > areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.
            >
            >
            > > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
            > > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
            > > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
            > help
            > > to eliminate it as a fake.
            > >
            > > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die
            started
            > to
            > > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.
            >
            > Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of
            the
            > die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.
            >
            > > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
            > > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never
            saw
            > a
            > > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
            > > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
            > > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state
            quarters.
            > I
            > > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters
            which
            > > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
            > > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
            > >
            > > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!
            >
            > I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
            > can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
            > counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
            >




          • Mike Diamond
            I would think it s possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At any rate, I can t
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
              I would think it's possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls
              and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At
              any rate, I can't believe this is the only one to have gotten out.
              Maybe others have been misidentified as double strikes or even
              counterfeits. Maybe some have simply been thrown into the "suspense
              account", since not many collectors would realize what they have.

              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, innff@... wrote:
              >
              > Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I
              would
              > think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since
              the time
              > frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is
              something not
              > easily missed.
            • Marc
              Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out capped die something to me. The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
                Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
                capped die something to me.

                The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
                those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or tripled
                above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
                at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin cap
                is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
                the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could be
                responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
                letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight design.

                As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck thru
                capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
                the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
                displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
                stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
                such an error, other than dropped letter types.

                My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.

                My 2 cents worth....
              • Mike Diamond
                I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in its own right).
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
                  I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                  die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                  its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                  quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does show
                  a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                  strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                  never complete separation as there is with this quarter.

                  The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                  incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                  could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-through
                  appearance in the surrounding area.

                  The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing in
                  the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the extra
                  letters were present in the die face.

                  I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                  helpful.

                  I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                  shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds additional
                  support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                  accompanied by other die damage.

                  --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Marc"
                  <numismistake@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
                  > capped die something to me.
                  >
                  > The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                  > stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
                  > those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or
                  tripled
                  > above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
                  > at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin
                  cap
                  > is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
                  > the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could
                  be
                  > responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
                  > letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight
                  design.
                  >
                  > As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck
                  thru
                  > capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
                  > the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
                  > displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
                  > stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
                  > such an error, other than dropped letter types.
                  >
                  > My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.
                  >
                  > My 2 cents worth....
                  >
                • jeff ylitalo
                  If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?   While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
                    If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?
                     
                    While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be nice.
                     
                    Thanks.

                  • Mike Diamond
                    There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong enough, a positive
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
                      There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                      shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                      enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                      opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                      The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                      counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                      could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                      just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                      and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                      the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                      struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                      unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                      counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                      1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                      the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                      001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                      struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                      the other counterclashes.

                      There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                      hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
                      <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                      occurs?
                      >  
                      > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                      also be nice.
                      >  
                      > Thanks.
                      >
                    • jeff ylitalo
                      I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.   Thanks for this current and
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
                        I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.
                         
                        Thanks for this current and updated digest for 'counterclash'.
                         
                        On Tue, 9/9/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                        From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                        Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought
                        To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 5:40 PM

                        There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                        shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                        enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                        opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                        The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                        counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                        could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                        just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                        and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                        the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                        struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                        unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                        counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                        1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                        the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                        001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                        struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                        the other counterclashes.

                        There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                        hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                        --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff ylitalo
                        <jylitalo@.. .> wrote:
                        >
                        > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                        occurs?
                        >  
                        > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                        also be nice.
                        >  
                        > Thanks.
                        >


                      • Mike Diamond
                        Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different spots. It measures a
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
                          Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a
                          coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                          spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                          authenticity.

                          I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                          is found. I'd like to see that too.

                          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                          <mdia1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                          > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                          > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                          > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                          show
                          > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                          > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                          > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                          >
                          > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                          > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                          > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                          through
                          > appearance in the surrounding area.
                          >
                          > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                          in
                          > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                          extra
                          > letters were present in the die face.
                          >
                          > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                          > helpful.
                          >
                          > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                          > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                          additional
                          > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                          > accompanied by other die damage.
                        • Mike Diamond
                          With respect to an official announcement in print media, I ve decided to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more detailed follow-up in
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
                            With respect to an official announcement in print media, I've decided
                            to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more
                            detailed follow-up in Errorscope later.

                            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                            <mdia1@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces
                            a
                            > coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                            > spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                            > authenticity.
                            >
                            > I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                            > is found. I'd like to see that too.
                            >
                            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                            > <mdia1@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several
                            capped
                            > > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious
                            in
                            > > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this
                            Delaware
                            > > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                            > show
                            > > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                            > > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones,
                            there's
                            > > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                            > >
                            > > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                            > > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                            > > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                            > through
                            > > appearance in the surrounding area.
                            > >
                            > > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                            > in
                            > > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                            > extra
                            > > letters were present in the die face.
                            > >
                            > > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's
                            always
                            > > helpful.
                            > >
                            > > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                            > > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                            > additional
                            > > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                            > > accompanied by other die damage.
                            >
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