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Re: I have no idea what I just bought,

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  • Mike Diamond
    I have seen fake counterclashes -- including some on state quarters -- but these bear little resemblance to the Delaware specimen. Signs of authenticity
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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      I have seen fake counterclashes -- including some on state quarters --
      but these bear little resemblance to the Delaware specimen. Signs
      of authenticity include the following:

      1. The extra letters of CAESAR RODNEY are affected by the same sort
      of die deterioration as the normal letters.

      2. The extra letters are confined to the field and are visible in the
      tiny spaces between the normal letters.

      3. The last two letters of RODNEY fade out as they enter a grease-
      struck area.

      Since the counterclash shows the effects of die deterioration, there
      must have been many produced. Where are they? Could they have
      escaped notice? Could all but a few have been intercepted before
      leaving the Mint?

      --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
      <mdia1@...> wrote:
      >
      > Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album.
      >
      > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
      > <mdia1@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each
      > letter
      > > is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
      > > relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
      > > itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects
      the
      > > rest of the design.
      > >
      > > This is really exciting, as it will represent the first
      > counterclash
      > > on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most distinct
      > > encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?
      > >
      > > Photos before the day is out, I promise.
      > >
      > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
      Diamond"
      > > <mdia1@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what
      > kind.
      > > > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
      > > > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with
      any
      > > form
      > > > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows a
      > late
      > > die
      > > > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten
      used
      > to
      > > > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck
      through
      > a
      > > thin
      > > > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the grease-
      > > struck
      > > > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all chew
      > it
      > > over.
      > > >
      > > > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
      > > handsomely,
      > > > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of Errorland.
      > > >
      > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
      > Diamond"
      > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
      > > > >
      > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
      ViewItem&item=320288437359
      > > > >
      > > > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
      > > > counterclash...who
      > > > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
      > > thinner
      > > > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait
      and
      > > see
      > > > > about that.
      > > > >
      > > > > Wish me luck.
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • jylitalo
      My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD. I hadn t taken it to the
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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        My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
        letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD. I
        hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
        RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
        counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would help
        to eliminate it as a fake.

        This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die started to
        deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.

        From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
        Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never saw a
        case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
        quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
        began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state quarters. I
        THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters which
        might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
        suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.

        I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!

        ,--- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
        <mdia1@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have seen fake counterclashes -- including some on state
        quarters --
        > but these bear little resemblance to the Delaware specimen. Signs
        > of authenticity include the following:
        >
        > 1. The extra letters of CAESAR RODNEY are affected by the same sort
        > of die deterioration as the normal letters.
        >
        > 2. The extra letters are confined to the field and are visible in
        the
        > tiny spaces between the normal letters.
        >
        > 3. The last two letters of RODNEY fade out as they enter a grease-
        > struck area.
        >
        > Since the counterclash shows the effects of die deterioration,
        there
        > must have been many produced. Where are they? Could they have
        > escaped notice? Could all but a few have been intercepted before
        > leaving the Mint?
        >
        > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
        > <mdia1@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Okay. Photos have been posted in the Default Album.
        > >
        > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
        Diamond"
        > > <mdia1@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Looking it over some more, I see that the left border of each
        > > letter
        > > > is incuse, but the main part is raised (albeit with very low
        > > > relief). That would be consistent with a counterclash that has
        > > > itself been affected by the same die deterioration that affects
        > the
        > > > rest of the design.
        > > >
        > > > This is really exciting, as it will represent the first
        > > counterclash
        > > > on a state quarter (or any quarter), and one of the most
        distinct
        > > > encountered. Question is, why hasn't it turned up before?
        > > >
        > > > Photos before the day is out, I promise.
        > > >
        > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
        > Diamond"
        > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > I have the coin and it's a real error, but I'm not sure what
        > > kind.
        > > > > CEASAR RODNEY is strongly duplicated and offset. It appears
        > > > > simultaneously incuse and raised. That's not consistent with
        > any
        > > > form
        > > > > of doubling or design duplication I know of. The coin shows
        a
        > > late
        > > > die
        > > > > state with areas of close incuse doubling that we've gotten
        > used
        > > to
        > > > > seeing on state quarters. Parts of the coin were struck
        > through
        > > a
        > > > thin
        > > > > layer of "grease", but the extra letters lie outside the
        grease-
        > > > struck
        > > > > zone. I will take some photos later today and let you all
        chew
        > > it
        > > > over.
        > > > >
        > > > > Whatever it is, it's fascinating and a gamble that paid off
        > > > handsomely,
        > > > > at least for someone who haunts the outer reaches of
        Errorland.
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike
        > > Diamond"
        > > > > <mdia1@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > but instinct tells me it's worth a shot:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
        > ViewItem&item=320288437359
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Could be a dropped filling, surface film transfer, a
        > > > > counterclash...who
        > > > > > knows? The seller reports the extra letters are raised and
        > > > thinner
        > > > > > that their normal counterparts, but we'll just have to wait
        > and
        > > > see
        > > > > > about that.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Wish me luck.
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Mike Diamond
        ... Yes, it has that incuse ripply form of die deterioration doubling that we re both familiar with on state quarters. It s prominent around the date 1999
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 8, 2008
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          --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
          <jylitalo@...> wrote:
          >
          > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
          > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of DDD.

          Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
          that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
          around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
          areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.


          > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
          > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
          > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
          help
          > to eliminate it as a fake.
          >
          > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die started
          to
          > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.

          Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of the
          die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.

          > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
          > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never saw
          a
          > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
          > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
          > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state quarters.
          I
          > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters which
          > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
          > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
          >
          > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!

          I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
          can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
          counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
        • Mike Diamond
          It s a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I d LOVE to see an early die
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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            It's a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks
            can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I'd LOVE to
            see an early die state specimen. The clarity would be mind-boggling.

            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
            <mdia1@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "jylitalo"
            > <jylitalo@> wrote:
            > >
            > > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
            > > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of
            DDD.
            >
            > Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
            > that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
            > around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
            > areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.
            >
            >
            > > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
            > > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
            > > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
            > help
            > > to eliminate it as a fake.
            > >
            > > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die
            started
            > to
            > > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.
            >
            > Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of
            the
            > die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.
            >
            > > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
            > > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never
            saw
            > a
            > > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
            > > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
            > > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state
            quarters.
            > I
            > > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters
            which
            > > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
            > > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
            > >
            > > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!
            >
            > I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
            > can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
            > counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
            >
          • innff@aol.com
            Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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              Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I would think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since the time frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is something not easily missed.
               
              BJ
               
              In a message dated 9/9/2008 11:53:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mdia1@... writes:

              It's a good thing I snagged it and properly identified it. Now folks
              can start searching rolls and bags for other examples. I'd LOVE to
              see an early die state specimen. The clarity would be mind-boggling.

              --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike Diamond"
              <mdia1@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, "jylitalo"
              > <jylitalo@> wrote:
              > >
              > > My first comment was going to be what appeared to be extra thick
              > > letters seen on both faces and that they resemble some form of
              DDD.
              >
              > Yes, it has that incuse "ripply" form of die deterioration doubling
              > that we're both familiar with on state quarters. It's prominent
              > around the date "1999" and the horse's head, as well as many other
              > areas. It affects the normal and duplicate CAESAR RODNEY.
              >
              >
              > > I hadn't taken it to the next level yet and applied it to CAESAR
              > > RODNEY, but if that is the case, (that this DDD shows on the
              > > counterclashed letters), I would say it is meaningful and would
              > help
              > > to eliminate it as a fake.
              > >
              > > This would mean the counter clashing occurred when the die
              started
              > to
              > > deteriorate, which is good and give a time frame.
              >
              > Yes, it indicates the counterclash occurred early in the life of
              the
              > die and wasn't detected for quite a while afterward.
              >
              > > From my own experience searching 6, $1,000.00 bags of P-mint
              > > Delaware quarters (when a person could still get them) I never
              saw
              > a
              > > case of DDD like shown on your coin. I looked closely at every
              > > quarter back then. It wasn't until New Jersey was released that I
              > > began to see severe die-deterioration showing up on state
              quarters.
              > I
              > > THINK your onto something with most of the Delaware quarters
              which
              > > might have shown DDD being caught by the mint before release. I
              > > suppose it was a matter of pride for them in the beginning.
              > >
              > > I hope it is truly genuine, it sure looks great, Mike!
              >
              > I have no doubt it's genuine, for the reasons stated earlier. I
              > can't think of any other scenario to explain it besides a
              > counterclash, so that's the diagnosis I'm sticking with.
              >




            • Mike Diamond
              I would think it s possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At any rate, I can t
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                I would think it's possible. After all, people put away a lot of rolls
                and mint-sewn bags of this inaugural issue of statehood quarters. At
                any rate, I can't believe this is the only one to have gotten out.
                Maybe others have been misidentified as double strikes or even
                counterfeits. Maybe some have simply been thrown into the "suspense
                account", since not many collectors would realize what they have.

                --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, innff@... wrote:
                >
                > Mike - Is it possible to have an EDS of this counter die clash?. I
                would
                > think that the numbers would be relatively low for this error since
                the time
                > frame from minting to discovery is rather large and the clash is
                something not
                > easily missed.
              • Marc
                Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out capped die something to me. The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                  Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
                  capped die something to me.

                  The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                  stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
                  those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or tripled
                  above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
                  at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin cap
                  is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
                  the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could be
                  responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
                  letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight design.

                  As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck thru
                  capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
                  the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
                  displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
                  stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
                  such an error, other than dropped letter types.

                  My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.

                  My 2 cents worth....
                • Mike Diamond
                  I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in its own right).
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                    I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                    die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                    its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                    quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does show
                    a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                    strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                    never complete separation as there is with this quarter.

                    The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                    incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                    could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-through
                    appearance in the surrounding area.

                    The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing in
                    the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the extra
                    letters were present in the die face.

                    I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                    helpful.

                    I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                    shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds additional
                    support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                    accompanied by other die damage.

                    --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Marc"
                    <numismistake@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Mike, everything about those pix in the default album shouts out
                    > capped die something to me.
                    >
                    > The incuse and raised images of Ceasar Rodney could be a very late
                    > stage foil thin and rotated capped die strike. It sure looks like
                    > those on cents that I have, with LIBERTY sometimes doubled or
                    tripled
                    > above and below the main strike of LIBERTY. This happens frequently
                    > at the date too. I would also suspect that most of the foil thin
                    cap
                    > is gone off the surface of the die, and only small parts remain on
                    > the die face. Part of this is by the lettering. Other parts could
                    be
                    > responsible for the small 'grease fill' you described. Perhaps the
                    > letters themselves 'hold' the foil in place due to their tight
                    design.
                    >
                    > As a second thought (a longshot), if grease could cause a struck
                    thru
                    > capped die-like transfer (or like a like a dropped letter error) on
                    > the subsequent coin being struck, then it COULD be possible for a
                    > displaced grease strike thru-like error to occur (much like a late
                    > stage displaced capped die error as I described). I do not know of
                    > such an error, other than dropped letter types.
                    >
                    > My ideas can be wild, but so is this error.
                    >
                    > My 2 cents worth....
                    >
                  • jeff ylitalo
                    If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?   While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                      If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing occurs?
                       
                      While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would also be nice.
                       
                      Thanks.

                    • Mike Diamond
                      There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong enough, a positive
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                        There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                        shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                        enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                        opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                        The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                        counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                        could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                        just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                        and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                        the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                        struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                        unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                        counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                        1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                        the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                        001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                        struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                        the other counterclashes.

                        There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                        hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                        --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, jeff ylitalo
                        <jylitalo@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                        occurs?
                        >  
                        > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                        also be nice.
                        >  
                        > Thanks.
                        >
                      • jeff ylitalo
                        I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.   Thanks for this current and
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 9, 2008
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                          I had the pleasure of reading the archives here on ECIE going back to 2003 concerning some of the coins you mention.
                           
                          Thanks for this current and updated digest for 'counterclash'.
                           
                          On Tue, 9/9/08, Mike Diamond <mdia1@...> wrote:
                          From: Mike Diamond <mdia1@...>
                          Subject: [Error Coin Information Exchange] Re: I have no idea what I just bought
                          To: errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, September 9, 2008, 5:40 PM

                          There are two kinds of counterclash. One involves clashed dies that
                          shift position and then clash again. If the clash marks are strong
                          enough, a positive impression of the incuse clash mark is left on the
                          opposite die. This leads to close, raised doubling on each coin.

                          The Delaware quarter represents the other (and more desirable) kind of
                          counterclash. Here the culprit is a stray piece of hard metal. It
                          could be a die fragment, collar fragment, loose washer, loose screw --
                          just about anything. The metal fragment gets struck, shifts position,
                          and is struck again. The second strike transfers the design back to
                          the field portion of the die as an incuse, mirror image. Every coin
                          struck after that has raised, normally-oriented design elements in an
                          unexpected location. Prior to the Delaware find, there were only four
                          counterclashes like this known among U.S. coins -- a 1969-S cent, two
                          1983 cents, and a 2000-P Sacagawea dollar. I was the diagnostician for
                          the 1969-S cent and dollar coin. The counterclash on the 1983 cent CLO-
                          001 was from a die fragment that broke off the reverse die and was
                          struck twice afterward. We don't know what kind of foreign object left
                          the other counterclashes.

                          There are also two counterclashes from Canada, the Feburary 1999 "extra
                          hand" and September 1999 "Four Faces" error.

                          --- In errorcoininformatio nexchange@ yahoogroups. com, jeff ylitalo
                          <jylitalo@.. .> wrote:
                          >
                          > If possible, could you clearly explain exactly how counter clashing
                          occurs?
                          >  
                          > While I understand the concept, an updated, concise definition would
                          also be nice.
                          >  
                          > Thanks.
                          >


                        • Mike Diamond
                          Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different spots. It measures a
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                            Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces a
                            coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                            spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                            authenticity.

                            I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                            is found. I'd like to see that too.

                            --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                            <mdia1@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several capped
                            > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious in
                            > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this Delaware
                            > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                            show
                            > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                            > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones, there's
                            > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                            >
                            > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                            > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                            > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                            through
                            > appearance in the surrounding area.
                            >
                            > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                            in
                            > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                            extra
                            > letters were present in the die face.
                            >
                            > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's always
                            > helpful.
                            >
                            > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                            > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                            additional
                            > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                            > accompanied by other die damage.
                          • Mike Diamond
                            With respect to an official announcement in print media, I ve decided to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more detailed follow-up in
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 10, 2008
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                              With respect to an official announcement in print media, I've decided
                              to allow Coin World to break the story. There will be a more
                              detailed follow-up in Errorscope later.

                              --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                              <mdia1@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Because fake counterclashes require pressure, this sometimes forces
                              a
                              > coin out-of-round. So I checked the diameter at several different
                              > spots. It measures a consistent 24.22mm. Further evidence of
                              > authenticity.
                              >
                              > I suppose skeptics won't be fully satisfied until a second specimen
                              > is found. I'd like to see that too.
                              >
                              > --- In errorcoininformationexchange@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Diamond"
                              > <mdia1@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I considered your first suggestion, Marc. I do have several
                              capped
                              > > die strikes that show close, offset, raised doubling (mysterious
                              in
                              > > its own right). However, the area that's affected in this
                              Delaware
                              > > quarter was not struck through anything. Where the surface does
                              > show
                              > > a light grease strike, the extra letters fade out. In capped die
                              > > strikes with raised extra elements next to the normal ones,
                              there's
                              > > never complete separation as there is with this quarter.
                              > >
                              > > The dropped letter argument also doesn't wash, as this would be
                              > > incuse. If a dropped letter impressed a thin die cap, then this
                              > > could produce a raised element, but again, you'd have struck-
                              > through
                              > > appearance in the surrounding area.
                              > >
                              > > The fact that the extra letters show the same incuse DDD pointing
                              > in
                              > > the same direction as the rest of the design indicates that the
                              > extra
                              > > letters were present in the die face.
                              > >
                              > > I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate, though. It's
                              always
                              > > helpful.
                              > >
                              > > I've studied the specimen some more and have located at least one
                              > > shallow die dent elsewhere on the reverse face. This adds
                              > additional
                              > > support to the counterclash theory. Counterclashes are often
                              > > accompanied by other die damage.
                              >
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